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Comments

1. #2085
   On July 17th, 2004 at 1:19 am, Martin aka Blogbat said:

   I agree with Baklava in that documenting foreign nationals from hostile countries is actually a policy which is quite generous, frankly. What we -should- be doing is barring their entrance; we are already being “nice” by even offering to let them in under certain conditions.
   To Milhouse I say, there is much more we could be doing, but as my mantra goes, nothing will happen until either another large scale attack occurs or we all get up off our tuchuses and put nagging, unrelenting, undying pestilence-style pressure on our officials

2. #2086
   On July 17th, 2004 at 1:43 am, Baklava said:

   Sandy,

   I did some more thinking about what you said about being of middle eastern descent in this country…..

   I think that if I was of middle eastern descent in this country I would be outing my fellow terrorists (and encouraging others to do so) so that I could enjoy the freedom of this country, raise a family and live in peace.

   It was Ted Kazinsky’s family who turned him in so that he couldn’t mail bomb more people.

   It’ll be a whole lot easier for peace loving muslims if they rid themselves of the people in their midst causing the problems.

   It’ll be a whole lot easier for Palestinians if they give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map and accept offers that give them 95% of what they want.

   One question. What is your definition of us getting it together? Turning the cheek? Ignoring the security of this nation? Giving concessions to the terrorists? An option that I didn’t mention?..

3. #2087
   On July 17th, 2004 at 7:15 am, SallyVee said:

   A month ago David Horowitz had an interesting flight from Frankfurt to Detroit, which he blogged about:

   http://www.frontpagemag.com/blog/BlogList.asp?D=&ID=&CP=2

4. #2088
   On July 17th, 2004 at 12:30 pm, Jack Burton said:

   Since everyone’s got an opinion, I’ll give you mine.

   One, why in the hell are any Syrians allowed in this country? It’s a terrorist nation that means to do us harm. Coming to this country is a priveledge, not a right.

   Two, even if this was just a harmless coincidence, people should be expected to behave on planes. If I started acting funny, hanging around the restroom, making jestures to other passangers, etc., I would fully expect to be detained. If these idiots thought this was some kind of joke, throw their ass in jail for a few days and see if they still think it’s funny.

   Three, all the “what has our country come to” fools should wake up. The facts are that 19 middle eastern men killed 3,000 thousand people and aim to do it again. From some friggin cave in Afghanistan to mosques right here in the states, they preach violence and hatred towards our Country. Clean up your own house and then cry to me about your rights.

   Almost lastly, I love the morons on this site who take on assumption and a few posts later turn it into fact.

   Liberal #1 – maybe they were praying the the restroom.

   Liberal #2 (a few posts later) My God, it was just a few guys praying. Hell, one of them had a prayer rug with him.

   Nowhere was any of that stated, you’all just made it up.

   Finally, since my desire to protect my family, neighbors and country obviously taints your worldwide utopian vision, why don’t we have two national airlines. One that profiles, searches and basically delays the flying experience in the name of safety. The other, let’s call it Utopia Air, treats everyone as honest citizens of the world and drops security procedures, because we’re all really just xenophobes. You’ll be happy, and I’ll be happy.

   The problem is, when the crime is blowing up or flying an airplain into the building, their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt also happens to be your ass.

5. #2089
   On July 17th, 2004 at 12:46 pm, Jack Burton said:

   Also, would one of our resident utopians please let me know how many dead Americans you need before we can start being suspicious of the religion of peace and it’s followers. I know you won’t be converted today, but perhaps after the next attack, if it’s big enough.

6. #2090
   On July 17th, 2004 at 1:30 pm, Bryan Travis said:

   This discussion of what would(/should) I(/you) have done has a slippery slope in it. This scenario probably puts a lot of us into “Walter Mitty” territory.

   I mean, this kind of fantasization risk is one reason Bond flicks are such a durable cashcow for MGM. There is a side of me that loves the heroic scenarios (confrontation of one sort or another), and another that prefers the down to earth ones, such as chat the people up innocently(not like Bond does…), occupy the bathroom, offer to hold the mcdonalds bag while they go… Naturally, when things got as clearcut as they became for the passengers of the 9/11 flight that ended in the Pennsylvania, yeah, it is time to recruit the best warriors on hand.

   Cheers,
   Bryan Travis

7. #2091
   On July 17th, 2004 at 8:01 pm, shedwannabe said:

   Much of this is quite clearly racist. People are focusing on the defining feature of their race as a reason to discriminate against others. You could focus on the fact that they were male, but don’t; you could focus on the fact that they were Muslim, but don’t; you could focus on the fact that they were fundamentalists (like many of the American terrorists) but don’t. Instead you focus on their ethnicity and suggest that it is appropriate to inconvience anyone who shares the ethnicity, and you don’t focus on other aspects (such as being male, such as being fundamentalists) which are a lot more connected with terrorism that being Arab.

   Now, having said that, and being a strong civil libertarian (ACLU member), I understand the fear and concern, and I’m not saying all that fear and concern is unwarrented. If our government is to be trusted (forget for the moment that I don’t trust them), intelligence suggests that more attacks can be forthcoming. So what do we do.

   1) Reports are coming in (I read one on either BBC News or CNN today) that the terrorists are trying to recruit non-Arabic people to be the terrorists (for example, Richard Reed types). A focus on discriminating against Arabs will miss non-Arabic terrorists, and reduced vigilance against terrorists (because of increased vigilance against “Arabs). Thus it seems that to focus on preventing terrorism is much more important than focusing on Arabs.

   2) People seem to be oblivious to the effects of stereotyping (remember back to your intro psych college course – they always told you those concepts applied to the real world). Perhaps some of you have visited places on earth where white affluent males are in short supply (there are places like this in most US urban areas if you can’t afford to fly to rural China). What’s it like visiting a place where everyone stares at you and wonders why you are there. Did you “fit in” well, and feel comfortable? Probably not. What do you think is the impact of having lots of people look at you with fear and suspicion? Almost all the reports of “strange suspicious behavior” by Arabs after 9/11 (including the people shamefully kicked off Northwest flights) were because of the perceiver’s paranoia and how that got translated to the individual’s being observed. Not convinced? Try going to an African American area (if you are white, that is) after a riot, and see how the locals respond to your presence, even if you have no ill feelings. When I read the article on the “dry run for bombing” all I could think was “What do you expect people to do when you look at them with suspicious written all over your face? Respond by being friendly?” Think. If you spit in someone’s face, do you expect them to turn the other cheek? So, reducing the stereotyping would be a good way to reduce the prejudice which leads to misinterpretations, and misunderstanding.

   3. What about self-fulfilling prophecy (another psychological concept; break out those old textbooks)? This is the concept that explains how our expectations of others affects THEIR behavior. Like when teachers expect white kids to do better in class than black kids, and lo and behold it happens! (Before you get on your high horse and start saying African Americans are naturally stupider, as many folks do.. controlled experiments have shown that this self-fulfilling prophecy explains most of the difference in academic settings – refer back to your psych textbook. So, it is reasonable to ask “why is the impact on people who others expect to be shify-eyed, devious, dangerous, etc.”? Psychological research suggests that there is a strong impact on people whom are seen to be untrustworthy (for example Gypsies in Europe). So realizing the effect of our racism on the target group (here “Arabs” would be a way to lessen the prejudice.

   So what do we do about all this racism, for it is very clearly racism? What do we do in the face of danger, since there does seem to be a risk of terrorist attack?

   If we are going to adopt racist strategies, I would prefer we are honest and say “in a time of stress, we are being racist”, rather than lying to ourselves.

   Perhaps we might ask “why are they still threatening to attack us, given that we’ve been to war against Al Qaeda (because of their terrorism) and Iraq (because of their oil, and our racism (they are Arabs, after all) and our faulty intelligence (or did the government know it was false and needed to justify an unjustifiable war)). If you want to know why they are still attacking, go see 9/11 – the scene where the mother is wailing because our bombs have just murdered the rest of her family and she vows vengence. If you want to know why they are still attacking, look at the pictures of sexual humiliation by our troops in Iraq. The absolute best recruiter for Al Qaeda has been the US Army and Air Force.

   So instead of claiming “we aren’t racist”, admit the racism. If you want to stop the threat, stop the assault on the Islamic way of life – see them as equals who choose a different way of life rather than as lesser people who need to be dragged out of the stone age.

   So what should we do? Focus on terrorism! Stop damning an entire civilization because a small band of fanatics did a very dastardly deed. Don’t contine to push normal people to terrorism in response to our murderous behavior towards them. Focus on terrorism. Screen for terrorists, not for “Arabs”; or maybe screen for “Islamic fundamentalists”. Resist the temptation to substitute a racist stance – “Arabs” for an accurate stance “terrorists”

8. #2092
   On July 17th, 2004 at 8:57 pm, Omni said:

   I’m a little skeptical about the idea that “they were searched and they were clean.” The search methods being used have gotten pretty clever about some things, but are VERY lacking about others, as my husband, who travels with a great deal of camera equipment, and I have discovered in our travels.

   On the one hand, we found out on Thursday that some airports are starting to make you either send all film through xray or they take it out of the box AND the foil and use the “sniffer” on it.

   On the other hand, my husband had a medium-format camera (which has a MUCH bigger body than a regular camera) on a strap around his neck, an old one that’s all metal and is big enough to have a bomb or a dismantled weapon inside of it… and they just rolled it through the xray machine next to his shoes and did NOT ask him to open it up.

   Don’t trust the searches to prevent people from getting dangerous items onto airplanes.

9. #2093
   On July 17th, 2004 at 9:58 pm, ClarkWestfield said:

   Why not search everyone? Or should we wait until someone who doesn’t match ‘the profile’ acts? Then we can go back and forth about how obvious it was that sooner or later one of these guys would find a way to evade the profile. I for one would never have gotten on that flight. I don’t care to hear about how much that would cost or what delays would result. The alternative is ’slighty’ more inconvenient… don’t you think? Annie Jacobsen doesn’t want to be thought of as a racial profiler, but her own account she is. That’s how she picked up on the group of “14 Middle Eastern men.” There are to ways to resolve this issue: All Caucasian flights, or simply search everyone. I vote for search everyone!! The objective is to prevent people from boarding with weapons, or material that can be fashioned into a weapon. Why are we focusing on one threat?

10. #2094
    On July 17th, 2004 at 10:05 pm, Stephen Downes said:

    Would the story have been as compelling without the inner dialogue? Almost certainly not. It is not unusual to see groups of people from a certain country when you fly – I have seen soccer teams, orchestras, school tours, and more from all parts of the world. These groups hang out together (big surprise), have in-jokes, rituals, and generally behave differently from other passengers.

    Is there a story here at all, aside from the inner dialogue? The nervousness on seeing passengers from the middle east is real. I felt it when I flew just a few weeks after September 11, I felt it when I shared a plane with the Tunisian soccer team just recently. It’s hard not to feel it, because we have been subjected to a barrage of media warning us about Arabs or middle easterners.

    But fearing Arabs and middle easterners is irrational. It is irrational because most such people on our airlines are not actually from the Arab word and the middle east; they were born and raised here and no more connected to terrorism than you or I. It is irrational because the vast majority of people from the middle east are not interested in being a terrorist and wouldn’t know how. And it is irrational because radicals and fundementalists of all races commit atrocities.

    Would it make sense to start profiling white people? Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, Timothy McVey – all white. But it would be ridiculous to profile white people, because it would do no good. So why do people think profiling Arabs would help? Perhaps they never see Arabs in their small towns or lily white suburbs. But there are Arabs, lots, and the airlines are not segregated. It makes no more sense to profile Arabs than to profile white people.

    They say your true colours show when you are under pressure. I believe that this was the terrorists’ ultimate intent, to force Americans to show who they really are. To commit an atrocity and let American outrage overwhelm the facade. We hear a lot about freedom and democracy and all that good stuff. But when push comes to shove, the terrorists believed, America would be revealed as fundamentally evil – a nation of bullies and thugs, of torturers and murderers, a nation that doesn’t really believe in human rights, a nation of racists.

    It would be sad if the terrorists were proven correct. It would be sad if you allowed yourself to get into that mindset where you believe, you really believe, that some dark skinned people are out to get you. You must resist this, even if you see it in the media every day. Because if you don’t, if you fall back into racism and start detaining people merely because of the colour of their skin, the terrorists win.

    This writer, and the people supporting her, are fanning the flames of racism, not squelching them. They are helping the terrorists win. Never mind Osama. These people will do his work for him.

11. #2095
    On July 17th, 2004 at 11:16 pm, Spiny Norman said:

    Can someone explain to me why the PC Left insists on projecting their carefully crafted worldview onto avowedly racist Arab Muslim fanatics? Osama and cohorts had no intention of revealing America as “a nation of racists”, they wanted to kill as many of us as possible and make the rest of us fear them and their vengeful god if every once of our being. Profiling Arab men between 17 and 40 traveling in groups is not “letting the terrorists win”, it is common sense.

12. #2097
    On July 18th, 2004 at 1:47 am, Richard Cranium said:

    Any thinking person can read the story and realize it has an agenda.

    Dozens of factual errors (in standard airline operating procedures among others) and unanswered questions (what substances go into a homemade bomb and how do they pass security screenings).

    The author quotes Ann Coulter, the Mistress of Disinformation? If Jacobsen was hoping for credibility, she lost it in that one simple act alone.

    Simply more fear mongering for the sheeple.

    Bah.

13. #2098
    On July 18th, 2004 at 3:30 am, kathy sunnyvale said:

    We have to have random searches of everyone. Even the painfully weird ones where tiny kids or old grandparents get searched. Because if it isn’t random then there’s a pattern. And if there’s a pattern then a bad group can just send enough people through to figure out what that pattern is. Then use terrorists who don’t fit that pattern.

    As to Baklava who wrote “I think that if I was of middle eastern descent in this country I would be outing my fellow terrorists (and encouraging others to do so) so that I could enjoy the freedom of this country…” If you are of Irish descent- do you out your fellow IRA terrorists? Or from Texas, do you out your fellow Texan terrorists? Why didn’t you out Krar? Can we really be telling fellow Americans that they have extra responsibilities because of their ancestry– that they, in essence, have some ethnic sins to atone for? I’d expect all Americans to report criminals that they know… but I don’t expect Americans of middle-eastern descent to know terrorists any more than I expect Irish-Americans to know IRA terrorists.

    And Jack Burton- those 3000 included people from around the world, including middle-easterners of different religions, and muslims of many ethnicities. How can we say that it was an “ethnicity” that killed if that “ethnicity” murdered its own people?

14. #2099
    On July 18th, 2004 at 4:26 am, Baklava said:

    Shedwannabe,

    Leave it to an ACLU member to play the “race” card. What doesn’t seem to resonate with you is that it IS prudent and reasonable for us to want to watch, document or question middle eastern people who are ACTING suspicious after we were attacked by same on September 11th.

    What is it with the 47% of Americans who just don’t get it? What makes me happy is that there are people like you out there writing so that we can see VERY clearly why we need to vote “for” George Bush. That 53% will be energized by people like you speaking and writing. It’ll be a landslide.

    Something about common sense escapes some people……… (ACLU’ers)

    ClarkWestfield,
    If it were 19 Polish elderly women who committed the terrorist attacks on September 11th and the Cole attack and the Embassy bombings and the …. (oh you get the point), then yes if there were 14 Polish elderly women on the Northwest flight getting up together, gesturing to each other, bringing items back and forth to each other, I would think it would be PRUDENT and REASONABLE for the 14 elderly Polish women to be watched, documented, questioned and even written about by Annie. She even said that before people accuse her of things like racism, she was just on a flight with mostly Arab men recently and she didn’t have one bit of uncomfortableness.

    Stephen Downes,
    “Would it make sense to start profiling white people? Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, Timothy McVey – all white. But it would be ridiculous to profile white people, because it would do no good. So why do people think profiling Arabs would help?” You asked a question, so I’ll answer. “Profiling” or at least paying MORE attention to Arabs is prudent and reasonable because it isn’t just a “FEW” – as you assert – troublemakers. There are WHOLE POPULATIONS of middle-eastern countries who cheered on Septermber 11th. Palestinians and others with the same mindset who are TAUGHT HATE from birth. Sure there are people in this country like Oswald, Manson, McVeigh who even though they weren’t TAUGHT HATE from birth found it within themselves to hate and kill. But when you have estimates by Muslims themselves that more than 10% of the muslim population are extremists who want to irradicate Israel and America from the planet then it is reasonable and prudent to watch, document and question those who are acting suspiciously.

    It is also prudent and reasonable for muslims all over the world to stop preaching hate to their young from birth and really find it in themselves to talk (or some other strategy) instead of “target” civilians for killing.

    Spiny Norman, Thank you for saying it shorter and more to the point than I can.

    Kathy Sunnyvale What IRA terrorist are in this country doing terrorists acts that NEED to be outed? What Texan terrorists are out there committing acts of terror? If my brother was Kazinsky I would’ve outed him. If my brothers preached the hatred that Palestinians preach to their young and talked about and plotted killing as many people as possible I would out them. I’m not talking about just being a descendent and outing other descendants. I’m talking about being prudent and reasonable and having common sense and outing your family members or friends who are planning and talking about killing.

    You would expect all Americans to report criminals that they know. Yes you would. So would I. But for some reason you have WHOLE communities of criminals like illegal immigrants and middle eastern terrorists living here in this country not being reported, questioned or made to leave this country. You are naive. You will stay that way until you read what goes on in middle-eastern (Palestinian for one) schools. And you will pretend that you are better than US and that WE are racist. Never mind who we are, have married, or have friends with. You don’t want to understand our perspective. You’d rather attack us…. which is why you will lose this November.

    Yes. Those 3000 included people from around the world. Except many middle-easterners don’t believe that there were any Jewish people in those buildings even though there were 80. You throw inane non-sensical questions around in that last paragraph. You are asking as if the middle-eastern people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center really would’ve contacted each individual fellow middle-easterner before the attack to alert them not to go to work that day and because they did NOT they really weren’t an “ethnicity” at all but just some criminals.

    Kathy come on… It seems to me and many others that it is the mind set of the islamofacists to kill as many people in areas of the world that they can to make their political point. They are killing Iraqi’s and they killed muslims in the World Trade Center. They are muslims. They are of middle-eastern descent and you have a paragraph there that really doesn’t strike a cord with anyone that I know. You are off the deep end and don’t understand the problem that we face today with these terrorists.

15. #2100
    On July 18th, 2004 at 8:52 am, shedwannabe said:

    It seems like some people are so upset with all this they can’t think straight.

    Jack Burton seems to think that calling someone (me) names somehow means he isn’t racist, when I described racism as selecting people on the basis of racial identity for special treatment, and ignoring other more relevant aspects of identity (for example “fundamentalists who believe in violence”). Of course its racism.

    Baklava seems to think that since I described this behavior (profiling) as racist, I want all attempts at stopping terrorists to cease. No, I want terrorism to cease, and I want racism to cease. These are not irreconcilable. A focus on preventing terrorism does not mean we need to treat all Arabs or Arab-Americans as potential criminals. Further, treating them as such increases the animosity of those who are not terrorist, and can turn some of them into teooroists. I referenced the scene in Farenheit 9/11 where the Iraqi woman vowed revenge on Americans who has killed her family in indiscriminant bombing. Personally, I’m not worried by her… but there are thousands of Iraqis who have innocent relatives killed, and thousands of Iraqis who have relatives sexually humiliated by US Army (don’t try to tell me the basis of the prison torture and degradation wasn’t racist) and those are the people who are flooding to the Al Qaeda recruitment offices (a metaphor, OK). The racism displayed in this story of a flight in the US is a very close cousin to the racism displayed in Iraqi prisons.

    What I wish you all could most see is how this racism is degrading to you personally, and to our country. Oh, by the way, Al Qaeda is racist too. I don’t support them in any way. I wish our country would stop “supporting them” by encouraging people to join them.

16. #2102
    On July 18th, 2004 at 10:01 am, shedwannabe said:

    The point, Mr Burton, is that an ethnic group didn’t kill thousands, 19 individuals who were terrorists did. If you are trying to stop terrorists, it is more productive to look for people who are fundamentalist religious people (Muslim, Christian, etc.) who are more likely to be terrorist than “Muslims”. And yes, Islam is a religion of peace, and most Muslims are upset that fundamentalists are ruining its name with their perverted view of it. Just like most Christians are upset when Christian fundamentalists advocate or use violence in the name of the Prince of Peace.

    So yes, you are using racist reasoning.

    As to the prison situation. Trying to get information from prisoners is good. Torturing them and deliberately humiliating them goes against the values of most Americans I know, I I don’t accept your apologist view that it was all done for a higher good “The end justifies the means”.. its degrades us to treat people that way and I refuse to give up my humanness no matter what the terrorists, or misguided people like you, try.

    And as for the conservative solution “If you don’t love it, leave it!” Why would I leave something I love? I want to make it a better place, even if it means spending too much of my time explaining to people like you exactly how you are racist and exactly how your “solutions” are contributing to the destruction of the core American values that make this country great.

17. #2103
    On July 18th, 2004 at 10:42 am, Jack Burton said:

    Well hell, now that I’m a racist I’m just going to pull the old sheet out of the closet and burn a cross or two. My only hope for the future is that somewhere you’re dumb enough to pin a racist tag on someone like you so casually do here and get your ass handed to you. Listen up, you are not enlightened.

    The day that I hear condemnation from arabs here and abroad denouncing the sick actions of their bretheren is the day that I stop stereotyping them, and not a day sooner. Last time I checked, arabs dancing in the streets after 9-11 isn’t exactly what I’m looking for. Clean up your mosques, get rid of the violence preachers and get rid of apolgists like CAIR. You are the best friend of the terrorists. No matter how many times we get poked in the eye by these idiots you’ll continue on your everyone is the same nonsense. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your cute little vision of how the world should be doesn’t exist. Not here, and especially not abroad. We are a country founded on the rule of law and we’re in a war with people who follow no laws. Get your head out of your ass and leave the dope farm.

    As for you humaneness, thank God you’re not the one out defending our country. You would rather have our soldiers die than your own personal view of the world be soiled. You make me sick.

18. #2104
    On July 18th, 2004 at 11:00 am, Baklava said:

    Shedwannabe,

    The point is that you need to change your thinking. I am not racist. And to use the “race” card in an argument at your age shows me that you have a lack of common sense. (Haven’t been taught a lesson)

    It is prudent and reasonable and common sense to be suspicious of a set of people who are a) Speaking Arabic b) making hand signals to each other c) passing things back and forth d) and all of the other suspicious activity that Annie describes. As I said it it were elderly Polish women who committed September 11th, the Cole, the embassy bombings, and on and on, it would be VERY WISE to be suspicious of suspicious behavior of 14 elderly Polish women on the flight especially if Polish people were taught “hate” from birth.

    What you don’t get wannabe-a-Shed (as evidenced by your phrase “an ethnic group didn’t kill thousands, 19 individuals who were terrorists did”) (forgive us for being stupid we all thought that the whole muslim population flew into the World Trade Centers didn’t we Jack) is that those 19 individuals and the ones who committed the act of war against the Cole and the Embassies and on and on, are part of a religion who believes a) it is right to kill the infidel and there are a good 10% of that religion (or more) that believe that a) that Israel shouldn’t exist b) that America shouldn’t exist.

    This is the problem with you liberals and John Kerry… You look at it as a police action against such very few. When the rest of us common sensers out here see and know how VAST and WIDE the support structure and operations of the terrorists are.

    Let’s talk about 2 examples:
    1) Palestinians – Their just seems to be a never ending supply of suicide murderers. It isn’t the one or two or three or four or hundred suicide bombers that we need to prosecute (already dead) or be concerned about. It is pretty much the whole population of Palestinians one needs to be concerned about until they change their thinking. Celebrating in the streets after 9/11, being taught from birth in their schools how noble it is to “kill a Jew”, being immersed in a mindset that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of the earth are reasons that give anyone (besides you probably) the understanding that it isn’t the one or two or three or four or hundred suicide mureders only that are the problem. Taking away the issues of what is Israel doing targeting the leaders of Hamas’ homes or building a wall, one can see that Israeli children are not taught hate from birth, aren’t celebrating death, but in fact are taught that inevitably Palestinians will have their own state probably (for the first time in the history of the world) if and when such deal can be made.
    2) We bombed civilian Japanese and Germans in WWII and in a major way. We don’t see a generation or two of Germans and Japanes coming and trying to irradicate Americans. Your argument about the fact that terrorists are who they are is because of us is totally false, part of the preached hatred that you probably listened to, and non-sensical. We fought on the BEHALF of muslims in this last decade a few times. We fought for the muslims in Yugoslavia (against the Christians), we fought for the Kuwaiti’s, and we fought for the people of Somalia (against the warlords) and tried to feed them. The fact that people get killed in a war, like the civil war in this country, Vietnam war, Iraqi war, is not in any way a reason why we create a LEGITIMATE reason for any population to TARGET and kill civilians. And people like YOU who lend them legitimacy should be taken aside and prosecuted for aiding and abetting the enemy.

    It is OK to be NOT if favor of the Iraq war. But to lend legitimacy to acts that should never be IN A TIME OF WAR is against the law. And liberals don’t get that with the “Bush lied” and other attacks they make against this president or country’s policy. Why not just be against the war (I’m for it) without all of the illegal acts of libel/slander/aiding the enemy that you guys are making?

    As for the racist accusations, my 1/2 Asian children will probably be happy to know that I was prudent and reasonable and had common sense (just like the 53% of Americans who will be voting in November) and wanted suspicious people to be watched, documented and maybe even questioned and deported if they weren’t here legally and were from a terrorist nation like Syria (a nation on the terrorist watch list- at this point I hope a light bulb clicked in your head that it isn’t just 19 individuals who we should be concerned about).

19. #2105
    On July 18th, 2004 at 11:10 am, Baklava said:

    One more thing Shed,
    Your aren’t going to pursuade anyone to think like you with the way you argue. You need to come up with a new way of arguing besides accusing your opponent of racism.

    What is your goal? Do you want to pursuade people to treat others differently? If yes then you are going about it the wrong way.

    …. AND you are doing it in such a way that makes people dislike the ACLU, John Kerry and liberals even more.

20. #2106
    On July 18th, 2004 at 1:24 pm, Clark Westfield said:

    In response to Baklava’s comments…

    You never answered why we can’t just search everyone? WHY? Domestic terrorism exists, just ask the folks in Oklahoma City. Ask the folks in the D.C. area. Why play into the hands of the ‘liberals’? Search everyone, problem solved. No, PC issues, just improved safety . Sure, you’re going to complain about longer lines, increased cost, and the inconvenience. The alternative, however, is worse.

    How long before a terrorist cell gets someone who doesn’t match the profile to do their work for them? Drive up to some nice suburban house, and hold that individuals loved ones hostage unless they comply with their demands? Yes, force someone into a suicide mission by threatening to kill their family. Or should we wait until it happens so some you can add to your list of possible scenarios? I don’t believe we have that luxury. Forget for a moment about the Middle East, what about some maniac would like to commit suicide using a 747? Oops! He seemed normal. Well, by that you mean he wasn’t Middle Eastern. Maybe someone dying of a terminal illness who believes the government has done enough to help. Oops again!

    September 11th was a wake-up call… The lesson was that we should be more vigilant. It seems some folks are still half asleep.

    Search everyone! Yes, even the old Polish lady.

    Next time you respond, answer the question.

21. #2107
    On July 18th, 2004 at 1:27 pm, Clark Westfield said:

    In response to Baklava’s comments…

    You never answered why we can’t just search everyone? WHY? Domestic terrorism exists, just ask the folks in Oklahoma City. Ask the folks in the D.C. area. Why play into the hands of the ‘liberals’? Search everyone, problem solved. No, PC issues, just improved safety . Sure, you’re going to complain about longer lines, increased cost, and the inconvenience. The alternative, however, is worse.

    How long before a terrorist cell gets someone who doesn’t match the profile to do their work for them? Drive up to some nice suburban house, and hold that individuals loved ones hostage unless they comply with their demands? Yes, force someone into a suicide mission by threatening to kill their family. Or should we wait until it happens so some you can add to your list of possible scenarios? I don’t believe we have that luxury. Forget for a moment about the Middle East, what about some maniac would like to commit suicide using a 747? Oops! He seemed normal. Well, by that you mean he wasn’t Middle Eastern. Maybe someone dying of a terminal illness who believes the government hasn’t done enough to help. Oops again! September 11th was a wake-up call… The lesson was that we should be more vigilant. It seems some folks are still half asleep.

    Search everyone! Yes, even the old Polish lady.
    Next time you respond, answer the question.

22. #2108
    On July 18th, 2004 at 2:44 pm, Tuning Spork said:

    I’ll presume that Jacobson’s account is accurate just because it rings true to me.
    Having said that, I’m wondering if what she witnessed was a “dry run” by US agents to observe the reactions and responses of the flight crew, the air marshall’s and the passengers.

    14 terrorists on a single flight to construct a homemade bomb seems like an awful lot. I’ll bet that, since the bomb supposedly can be made out of several “innocent” components, it would only take several men to do it.

    I also don’t accept that terrorists would be so clumbsily obvious about their movements and gestures to each other. It almost seems like they were acting so very very suspiciously in order to purpously draw attention to themselves… and maybe they were.
    If something about the story seems out of whack it may just be because the “terrorists” were so many and so blatantly acting like terrorists.

    The explanation that they were musicians travelling to a hotel in the desert is a cover story from the FBI or OHS and the air marshall who spoke to Michelle Malkin is as in the dark about all of this as Jacobson is.

    I don’t know, of course. I’m just saying, is all…

23. #2109
    On July 18th, 2004 at 2:47 pm, Tuning Spork said:

    Oopsie! That last paragraph should begin: “Perhaps the explanation…”

24. #2110
    On July 18th, 2004 at 3:00 pm, Baklava said:

    Clark Westfield,

    Because. Right now it is U.S. policy to do random searches. It is U.S. policy to search or question no more than 2 Arab looking people per flight.

    Realism is the answer. Realism is to understand that the American population is just not there. Just like before 9/11 we couldn’t fathom invading Afghanistan. Immediately following 9/11 we were able to take over Afghanistan even though there were some who were saying it would be like Vietnam and our soldiers couldn’t handle the cold. Well. Before 9/11 there was no way that the American people could fathom having increased searches and wait times at airports for no reason. After 9/11 though people were willing to wait with longer security lines. However the more time that passes people are less and less willing to be subject to searches. Polls show this.

    Realism and common sense say that there is no way that we could ramp up personnel-wise to have searches of everybody. And it is offensive to me that I have to “answer” to you when it doesn’t take much “understanding” for you to understand that we couldn’t even get to your approach without the airline business suffering and another bid debate between Tom Daschle and the President about how many more government dollars and whether or not the newly hired airline personnel would be “unionized”. Realism. Well. Maybe you didn’t remember the “unionized” debate between Tom Daschle and others on the new batch of government employees.

    All us common sensers and realistic people are saying is that you need to be SMART. Being smart is paying attention, looking at patterns. But in your eyes I guess we shouldn’t be smart or look at “patterns”. We should pretend that there are thousands of McVeighs ready to strike. We should pretend that there are whole McVeigh communities who are taught from birth to hate America and try to wipe off as many Americans off the face of the planet as possible. While we know there are idiots who have this intent in mind, those are individuals.

    In the muslim world though there are millions who want to do us harm and instead of realistically accepting that fact you want to say we shouldn’t see any “patterns” and anyone who wants to be SMART, prudent and reasonable should be called racist.

    Now how about you answer some questions…
    1) Do you think we have the resources (in place) to change from random searches to searches of everyone?
    2) If we don’t have the resources (in place) do you think Congress could authorize the dollars to get the resources in place?
    3) Do you recognize that Americans do not have the stomach for doing what you recommend? And do you recognize that there would be a drop in people using the airlines if we implemented your plan?
    4) If you recognize those things in #3, could you at least recognize that security personnel DO LOOK AT PATTERNS but in this instance are prohibitted by the Department of Transportation (Norm Mineta) and instead of calling people who want to be smart, reasonable and prudent racist that you will grow up and realize that reality exists.

    After looking through the posts I don’t see where you called anyone racist but, here is a question for you… could you take a stand against people like Shed for us? I would like to see you do it…

    Answer those questions in your next post. Please