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Comments

1. #1
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:25 am, David2 said:

   Thanks for updating this story. These Syrians broke the rules on this flight and acted in an intimidating manner. Their numbers apparently led the stewardesses to avoid confronting them. And this type of behavior is okay? I have not heard any government source say it was not. And there are some bloggers and anonymous sources who are criticizing a woman who had the courage to ask questions on the flight and write about it later? Who is protecting the women and children on our air flights? No one, apparently.

2. #2
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:26 am, Chadster said:

   FIRST!

   …and…”huh”. For those who said we were worrying too much, may we worry now?

3. #3
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:27 am, Chadster said:

   Wait…SECOND! No…THIRD.

   Oh nuts.

4. #4
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:34 am, David2 said:

   I have seen gangs in action. This was gang behavior. This was a gang acting out some type of aggression. What are the people who are supposed to be in charge up there going to do about it? Tell us all to sit tight and watch? Because the airspace over our country is now in enemy hands if they do.

5. #5
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:36 am, chris papadakis said:

   I want to E-mail this article to my friends —
   How do I do it??? thank you….

6. #6
   On July 25th, 2004 at 9:41 am, Laughing Wolf said:

   Thank you so much for staying on top of this!

7. #7
   On July 25th, 2004 at 10:17 am, JimK said:

   Does anyone have any narratives from anyone *other* than Jacobsen about this flight? Other passengers, I mean. Surely someone else on this flight could confirm her version of events if they were…”gang-like.”

8. #8
   On July 25th, 2004 at 10:25 am, Graham Lester said:

   Last April I flew from Kansas City to London via Chicago and nobody looked at my passport until I got to London. I just had to type a valid passport number into a machine.

   I think it’s long been a policy not to check visas on flights within the US.

   Perhaps the musicians were scared of looking suspicious, and that made them look even more suspicious than ever.

   The FBI spokesperson seemed to indicate that the crew wasn’t worried about the Syrians as much as the reaction of the other passengers.

9. #9
   On July 25th, 2004 at 10:28 am, Roger said:

   This is dismaying (THAT’s an understatement!). I recall Joel Mowbray’s devastating piece in National Review a couple of years ago (ignored by the mainstream media, of course!). He obtained the visa applications of the majority of the 9/11 hijackers and found that most should have been rejected upon first review due to obvious errors, omissions, ambiguities.

   I’m a huge W supporter, but when this crap happens, it even has this staunch GOP-er wondering, “What the hell’s the difference between W and Kerry?”

10. #10
    On July 25th, 2004 at 10:35 am, David2 said:

    Let’s try one more time. Look at it from a different perspective. You are perhaps divorced and your spouse lives some distance away. You have two wonderful children, ages 8 and 10, who go to him in the summer. And they fly.
    You have just discovered that all these things happened on their flight. And your children saw it happening. How do you feel? Are you worried about the feelings of the Syrians?

11. #11
    On July 25th, 2004 at 10:56 am, JimK said:

    “Are you worried about the feelings of the Syrians?”

    Yes. I am. Especially in hindsight, when it turns out they aren’t terrorists.

    I believe it is possible to worry about BOTH. It’s not a zero-sum equation.

12. #12
    On July 25th, 2004 at 11:16 am, David2 said:

    Wow. That’s amazing. Especially since we still don’t know what they were.

13. #13
    On July 25th, 2004 at 11:23 am, Kevlar said:

    Well, isn’t it obvious that a new national counterterrorism center and another 100 or so bureaucrats would have prevented this?

    /911 commission

14. #14
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:02 pm, mb said:

    David2: Let’s look at it another way. I’m on a flight with you.

    Obviously you’re a terrorist. Even though there’s zero evidence that you are, and you’ve passed security screening, I read a story somewhere about a man with two children blowing up a plane.

    We land safely.

    I now demand all people named David be prohibited to fly, because I was scared during the flight.

15. #15
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:25 pm, wakeup said:

    Hey mb,
    You don’t get it, or you did not read the article by Jacobsen, or another article by Hudsen in The Washington Times (7/22/04)about a similar flight in February? Why don’t you read these accounts before you play the racist card?

    I hope that after another terrorist attack the news reports don’t read “Americans are dead,but they were politically correct and nice people.” People of Middle Eastern roots, who are not Islamic terrorists, are not the issue here.

    Do you see black,white,Asian,Indian,or European people congregating in aisles, blocking exits, standing during seat-belt signs on planes? I don’t. Should the rules be different on planes and in other public areas for Middle Eastern people. I don’t think so,folks. And, sorry, but until people from an obscure nation I have never heard of start attacking America and other countries in the name of an extreemist religion,I guess Americans will keep an eye on suspicous characters flying with them.

16. #16
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:30 pm, JimK said:

    “Wow. That’s amazing. Especially since we still don’t know what they were.”

    So very, very not true.

17. #17
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:32 pm, David2 said:

    Except that there are 14 of us on the airplane and we are not following the rules. We are intimidating people. And none of the stewards are being reassuring or reestablishing order. We are from a terrorist sponsoring nation. Seven of us suddenly get up when everyone is buckling in for the landing. If I let my children fly in that situation some liberals might cry child abuse. You, on the other hand, are having a fantasy based on your dislike of ordinary families, I guess.

18. #18
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:35 pm, Robert McClelland said:

    Why don’t you read these accounts before you play the racist card?

    Why don’t you stop being rascist and then we won’t have just cause to play the rascist card.

19. #19
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:39 pm, mb said:

    “Do you see black,white,Asian,Indian,or European people congregating in aisles, blocking exits, standing during seat-belt signs on planes?”

    Yes. I’ve been on planes where white americans took off sitting in the lavoratory.

    I’ve been on planes where white americans stood up during landing.

    I’ve been on planes where people congregate. In fact, every long flight I’ve been on is like that, and I’m one of the congregants. Nicer airlines even have a space set aside to do that so you don’t have to block the galley.

    I’ve been on planes where people ignore the fasten seatbelt sign. In fact, I’ve been on trans-contenintal (US) flights where the seatbelt sign was on the entire flight, and when I asked the flight attendent what message the pilot was trying to send (we couldn’t stand up, or that they were too lazy to turn a switch, or what), she thought it might have to do with the fact that you’re supposed to have your belt on when sitting, but wasn’t sure. Certainly it had nothing to do with being allowed to stand up or not.

    I’ve been to mediterannean countries where no one follows anything they’re told to do, and it’s not because they’re being spiteful or evil, it’s just their culture.

    And I only fly a few times a year. So, wakeup, have you been on planes?

    BTW, Michelle, I do appreiciate you following the overstay issue. As much as I think the whole thing is overblown doesn’t meant there’s nothing to be learned. Anyone know when the musicians entered the US and what other places they toured?

20. #20
    On July 25th, 2004 at 12:58 pm, wakeup said:

    Dear mb
    I fly all the time in America, and have never seen the behavior by anyone that Ms. Jacobsen described.

    One person having to pee on landing does not worry me. And if you are stupid enough to not wear a seat-belt during a flight or in a car, then please keep your civil liberties intact while you get injured.But don’t try to gang up and scare people just because you are from the Middle East.

    The main point is this: I am a legal citizen of the US. My papers (passport) are in order. If I fly to other countries, which I have, my papers are in order. I try to follow the rules of the foreign country and respect other cultures. I do not try to intimidate or act like an ugly American. So, even if these musicians were in the country legally with expired Visas, they were trying to scare people AT THE VERY LEAST.

    Your leftist dream of people not being worried after 9/11 is unreasonable. I wish it were not so. I hope, if nothing else, Ms Jacobsen’s article will INCREASE security at airports for all of us who take connecting flight.And people should report suspicious behavior. Please look at the ignored history before 9/11.

    By the way,racisim today does not mean that normal people hate all Muslims and shun them. Correct me if I am wrong, but most of the radical Islamic movements are young men of Middle Eastern origins.Post 9/11 people with expired Visas SHOULD NOT BE able to flit across our nation and act as the “band” members did.

21. #21
    On July 25th, 2004 at 2:12 pm, Monty W said:

    If you want a first hand account of this flight, check out this reporter who happened to be on the plane at the time. http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711

22. #22
    On July 25th, 2004 at 2:35 pm, SarahW said:

    8. Are there any travel restrictions on P-3 visa?

    No, there are no travel restrictions on P-3 visa. You may travel in and out of the U.S. as long as your visa stamp and status are valid.

    *UPDATE*

    No, there are no travel restrictions on a P-3 visa. Ever. Especially not when there is a specific terror threat concerning your previse point of arrival and departure.

23. #23
    On July 25th, 2004 at 2:37 pm, SarahW said:

    Dear Lord, please send me new typing hands that work, amen.

24. #24
    On July 25th, 2004 at 3:00 pm, Phelps said:

    Actually, there is a very good reason for the promoter to have been told not to talk to the press about it. That would be if the men WERE arrested and are in Gitmo right now.

    In this sort of thing, you don’t want to get the guys from the flight right away. You want to monitor them, find out who they are talking to. Then you want them to disappear. You DON’T want the people they are connected to in the network knowing that they have been picked up, because then they can sanitize anything these guys have been in contact with. You want them to be an unknown, in the hopes that any intel you get from interrogation will still be good when you get there.

25. #25
    On July 25th, 2004 at 4:55 pm, James Kotthoff said:

    Robert McClelland,
    “Why don’t you stop being racist and then we won’t have just cause to play the race card”
    1) I am not reading anyone being racist on these comments
    2) I have looked at your comments on various subjects on this site… Have you ever had a valid post or are you just trying to stir up things with stupid comments? I am sure if you really want to feel at home you could try the democratic underground site. But I suggest to stay away from famous idiots (They would eat your lunch).

26. #26
    On July 25th, 2004 at 4:57 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    I’ve always enjoyed how my hometown paper spins these things: “entered the country lawfully on artist visas”+”but immigration officials said those passes expired”. The reader is still thinking, “yeah, but they still entered ‘lawfully’. I suppose the writer meant by this they didn’t hijack a plane bound for say, Greenland and bring it to the US…

    I think we are starting to see some congressmen beginning to wake up to this, such as my home state’s John Culberson (R), though it is far from what we need. What we need is to the Liberal infection we have been beset with since 1992 called “PC” and flush it out. Naturally, I vote we do so before it kills us.

27. #27
    On July 25th, 2004 at 6:03 pm, cole said:

    Pardon me for asking the obvious… but just where are these illegal aliens now? What are they doing? Are they still in the U.S.? If so, why?

    Rhetorical of course, but you get my drift, right?

28. #28
    On July 25th, 2004 at 9:39 pm, SilverSlacker said:

    Speaking of leftist pipe dreams!
    Isn’t Al Gore kid sitting out the Iraq War in drug rehab clinic
    . Something to remember a few years from now when Al Gore III decides to enter into the famly bussiness , runs for office.

29. #29
    On July 26th, 2004 at 12:36 am, Baklava said:

    MB Wrote - “I now demand all people named David be prohibited to fly, because I was scared during the flight.”

    MB, Only one problem with your argument. We reasonable, prudent and smart people out here are not demanding that Muslims be prohibited from flying.

    All that we reasonable, prudent and smart people out here are doing is watching, documenting and hoping for a little pattern recognizing. Unfortunately, we can’t search more than 2 middle-eastern men because Norm Mineta who is in charge of the DOT says so.

    When we wish for a little common sense, people out here like you act like we are trying to rip some citizen’s constitutional rights away and then it turns out that these people were here illegally……….

30. #30
    On July 26th, 2004 at 12:40 am, Baklava said:

    Sarah wrote “Dear Lord, please send me new typing hands that work, amen.”

    Sarah, we know what you’re saying…

31. #31
    On July 26th, 2004 at 1:10 am, michelle said:

    I don’t believe any of the terrosists were named “David” but they all were Muslim and some had expired visas. This behavior was very unusual. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but 100% of the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists. I wonder if any of the passengers aboard those planes had any idea before events unfolded that something was not right.

32. #32
    On July 26th, 2004 at 1:20 am, michelle said:

    just to clarify the above comment:On 9/11, I don’t believe any of the terrorist were named “David” (referring to a previos comment) but they were all muslims. I would have been beside myself if I would have witnessed that activity on a plane. Anyone who claims otherwise is probably extremely brave or lying to themselves.

33. #33
    On July 26th, 2004 at 1:45 am, spooky said:

    Maybe Homeland Security doesn’t want them to talk because it was a fire drill, to see how the crew and air marshals — and perhaps passengers — responded.

    Like a test of the emergency broadcast system.

    This is a band that tours, a vetted group. Maybe their cover is not blown, too.

34. #34
    On July 26th, 2004 at 1:46 am, spooky said:

    typo!
    I was trying to say, Maybe their cover is now blown, too.

35. #35
    On July 26th, 2004 at 1:56 am, Ironbear said:

    “2) I have looked at your comments on various subjects on this site… Have you ever had a valid post or are you just trying to stir up things with stupid comments?” - James Kotthoff

    Re: McClelland. No James, he never has. And as near as I can tell, “Racist!” and “Oppression!” are about the limit of his repertoire. Anything requiring coherence loses him on the first curve.

    And it’s not just listed to this weblog, either: McClelland is a blogroach that does this across the breadth of the blogosphere.

    MT Blacklist makes an acceptable RAID fogger for him. ;]

36. #36
    On July 26th, 2004 at 5:11 am, RP said:

    Mr. Boyd was not accurate when he said ICE has no authority over such flights. He was dissembling at best. How does ICE check eastbound flights from LAX that are found to have illegal aliens on board? How do they check domestic flights arriving on the east coast that have illegal aliens on them? Obviously, they have the authority to question any person the believe to be an alien as to their right to be in or remain in the United States.

    What kind of “test” did the FBI run to determine their legal status? I’ve never heard of such a test and I’ve been enforcing immigration law for over 30 years.

37. #37
    On July 26th, 2004 at 9:20 am, King of Queens said:

    Any chance this band or anybody would have made it onto an El Al flight with an expired anything, including drivers license?

    Really gives you a secure feeling about the screening process!

38. #38
    On July 26th, 2004 at 11:42 am, rrenk said:

    Syrian Band or Band of Syrians?

    Either way, the point is that they violated security practice in more than one way while aboard the flight, and the flight crew did little or nothing about it.

    I flew twice on American in mid June, and the flight attendants on those flights were absolute in not allowing even a single person to wait in the aisle for a lavatory; not even for a few seconds.

    There were, however no obvious Arabs on board. Could it be that Minetas ‘No more than two Arabs’ philosophy has crept into the guidance given to flight attendants? If so, then a group (gang?) of three or more pretty much has the run of the plane.

    There can be little doubt that the anti-profiling nonsense will assist terrorists in perpetrating their next crime.

    I, for one, will implement my own profiling program. I don’t intend to get on a flight if I see more than two Arabian passengers in line for my flight. I’ll live with the inconvience.

    R

39. #39
    On July 26th, 2004 at 11:48 am, dQm said:

    Please! Won’t someone think of the children?!

40. #40
    On July 26th, 2004 at 2:40 pm, Mark Poling said:

    Why does everyone assume that because these guys could play instruments, they couldn’t also know how use guitar strings as garrotes?

    Somebody earlier mentioned cover stories. Does anyone have a list of which gigs these guys played, and where? (Even I know “I’m with the band” is one of the All Time Top Ten Lies.)

41. #41
    On July 26th, 2004 at 4:38 pm, Ironbear said:

    Have a question… did Britian and the US allow relatively unrestricted travel into our two contries from Axis nations during WWII? Especially from Germany and Japan between 1941 and 1945?

    If the answer turns out to be “No”, then why is it so unreasonable to suggest that we should restrict visas, passports, and travel into the US from countries such as Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia while we’re at war with them?

42. #42
    On July 26th, 2004 at 4:41 pm, AMac said:

    Mark Poling (up two at 2:40pm):

    The story is (belatedly) getting the play it deserves, thanks to this website and also Donald Sensing and Winds of Change. When the Anne Jacobsen article that started this up was published, there were a host of ambiguous facts. They are mostly [not completely] cleared up now (check blogs’ archives for verification):

    –The musicians were Syrians. They entered the US on valid visas to play a gig at a casino outside LA. They flew in, they played, they flew out. [Were they "overstaying" their time in the US?]

    –There have been no credible reports or suggestions that any of these musicians were anything but musicians. No connections to Al Qaeda, etc. No hits on terror watch lists.

    –Frequent travelers on El Al (!) have reported Israeli passengers ignoring flight attendants and moving about the cabin during landings, etc. as a matter of routine, suggesting that there could be a ‘cultural’ aspect to the behavior Ms. Jacobsen reported.

    –To my knowledge, Ms. Jacobsen’s account stands alone. The only report of other passengers’ concern is this sentence from the Dallas Morning News story: “Some passengers and air marshals aboard the flight raised concerns about the men’s behavior.”

    –Air Marshals cover a small percentage of domestic flights, so the fact that they were on board suggests a level of prior concern by Homeland Security. As does the claim that they checked the lavatory mid-flight.

    My own theory (like Miss Anne Elke’s, “and it’s mine”) is that these Syrians held typical anti-American views, and when they–correctly–felt bad vibes from the other passengers, they decided to play gangsta, and put on a little in-flight show.

    In a similar vein, some protesters to the Repub. convention in NYC are apparently planning to confuse bomb-sniffing dogs by carrying traces of mateial that smells like explosives.

    One question I carry away from this: how do we want our security forces to deal with this variety of “somewhat-false-positive”? We all know that intent, a key factor here, is hard to judge, especially in tense and fast-moving situations.

43. #43
    On July 26th, 2004 at 4:59 pm, David2 said:

    This is an ongoing story. Nobody has cleared anything up. It is not getting as much attention because there is no further information. The government has clamped down on it for whatever reason. I’m sure somebody will try to breeze in and wrap it up with a nice bow but that clears nothing up. We need facts that have not already been discussed and I plan to continue to look to Michelle. Hopefully, she is still interested in the story.

44. #44
    On July 26th, 2004 at 5:31 pm, Surge said:

    Gosh, everyone is SO overzealous about getting to the bottom of this story and what exactly happened.

    Snopes.com has already declared it a hoax and urban myth.

    Maybe you should redirect this energy towards helping us find those tons of WMDs that Bush said could be activated in 45 minutes by Saddam!

45. #45
    On July 26th, 2004 at 5:55 pm, megapotamus said:

    Never checked the visas. Um, seems to me that all that requires is opening up the passport and looking at the stamp. I’ve never gottn a US visa but all the other ones I’ve gotten are printed in the passport somehow. These guys were not INS apparently but they can read, right?