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Comments

1. #1
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:54 am, Bithead said:

   I’ve a better, Michelle;

   Ask Rotundo Moore, under what conditions he considers that sacrafice valid… and then ask him what right he has to make that choice for those who volunteered for duty in the military. You may also want to ask him under what conditions he would consider fighting, himself.

   Demand he provide examples of himself doing so.

2. #2
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:55 am, Surge said:

   I’d send myself first before I’d send my child. But it would have to be a war that is NOT based on FALSE PREMISES, like the Iraq “war” is.

3. #3
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:55 am, Surge said:

   I’d send myself first before I’d send my child. But it would have to be a war that is NOT based on FALSE PREMISES, like the Iraq “war” is.

4. #4
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:55 am, Jay Solo said:

   The best take I have seen yet is from The Resplendent Mango at:
   http://resplendentmango.blogspot.com/2004_07_01_resplendentmango_archive.html#109102574571533778

   In part:
   “George Bush (or any Commander-in-Chief) has the power to order men into battle and likely-death situations, which is why we are very careful about who we pick as President. Parents cannot order soldiers into battle and which is why it’s okayish that parenting has a much lower threshold of qualification.”

5. #5
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:56 am, Frog said:

   Moore’s typical ploy is to use simplistic, emotional thought instead of logic and reason. It’s nuts. I only wish that O’Reilly had responded better or quicker than he did.

6. #6
   On July 28th, 2004 at 11:59 am, Frog said:

   And to those who want to use the “send my child” logic: the last time I checked, the armed forces weren’t piling kids onto a waiting military plane. These are 18+ year olds who made a consious, voluntary effort to serve their country. Nobody can possibly conclude that the military’s main duty is to plant flowers.

7. #7
   On July 28th, 2004 at 12:00 pm, Fdaleft said:

   From Derb:

   —

   Mulling over Michael Moore’s remarks to Bill O’Reilly, it occurs to me that they show up one aspect of the leftist mindset with special clarity. The philosopher David Stove had a phrase for all those theories that portray human beings as the helpless pawns of inscrutable, impersonal forces (“the rich,” “the powerful,” “history,” “stereotyping”). He called them “puppetry theories.”

   That’s what you see with Moore. Ordinary people — people less enlightened than Moore and his pals — are clueless, helpless doofuses, being pushed around by sinister evil-doers. George W. Bush “sends” young people (Moore actually calls them “children, which is revealing in itself) to die in Iraq, as if the servicemen and -women involved had no volition at all! My reader from Iowa shows the absurdity and fundamental inhumanity of this point of view very well. His Ranger son is not a helpless infant being “sent to die” by an evil administration. He is an adult person who chooses, decides, and acts, according to his convictions, preferences, and free will.

   The Left has never departed in any significant way from Leninist collectivism. Human beings are not autonomous spiritual beings, possessed of free will. They are mechanical units who need to be directed, governed, shoveled around like so many truckloads of concrete, socially engineered. Or they are “children,” to be scolded and directed and constantly supervised.

   —

   link

   Moore sees himself as a Master.

   Are you a Slave?

8. #8
   On July 28th, 2004 at 12:01 pm, Greg said:

   I am proud of the service of my son in the US Military both in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan and Operation Iraqi Freedom. I would grieve the loss of his life as I would under any circumstance, accident, murder or disease. I would be proud of his commitment to our nation and our ideals.

9. #9
   On July 28th, 2004 at 12:02 pm, abel said:

   I like the line “bringing peace and democracy to another land”

   Ok now, all Iraqis who are against american occupation of their homeland is against peace and democracy.

10. #10
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:13 pm, EH said:

    I guess they’re seen as “excellent” because they seem nice cover for not answering the question.

    Which I have no problem doing: While I am just as worried about the prospect of terrorism as the most avowed such worrier you can find, I did not see before the invasion of Iraq, and have not seen since, enough convincing evidence, or speaking of before the war even persuasive suspicion, that Iraq was a principal sponsor or source of terrorism, or that it had or was actively developing weapons of mass destruction which could be conveyed to terrorists, to justify a war, with the large loss of life and great hardship that is usually its consequence.

    And so I would not have wanted my son to fight and possibly die in an invasion of Iraq, because I did not see this war, at this time, as in the best interest of America (to date it is not clear at all that it has made this country one bit more secure), or as a necessary next step in the war on terror (which most definitely is necessary).

    There you see, it’s not so difficult.

11. #11
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:17 pm, Surge said:

    “My reader from Iowa shows the absurdity and fundamental inhumanity of this point of view very well. His Ranger son is not a helpless infant being “sent to die” by an evil administration. He is an adult person who chooses, decides, and acts, according to his convictions, preferences, and free will.” Fdaleft quoting Derb

    The FUNDAMENTAL flaw of Derbs observation is that he fails to site the CIRCUMSTANTIAL conditions that limit the choices, decisions and actions these brave young men and women make.

    An example: A guy living in a gated, exclusive upper-class community in Crawford, Texas has more CHOICES than a young man who comes from a devastated rural or urban community where one of the few avenues for upward social mobility is joining the military.

    Of course we are al individuals who can make our own choices and act of our own volition. But those choices can be limited by institutionalized and systematic conditions that work against us.

12. #12
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:22 pm, Scott Sala said:

    Thanks for writing about this. I meant to but have been bogged down with other thoughts.

    As usual, the emotional instant coffee served by Moore goes down well in many Americans’ guts, but in the end, after pondering the facts, applying rational thought and digesting it for what it really is, we have a stomach ache. We should definitely stick with the full, rich flavor of Bush. (no rich jokes)

    Understanding how things work is perhaps our biggest battle with the emotional, instant gratification Left.

13. #13
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:24 pm, abel said:

    I mean no disrespect to the parents whose sons and daughters are in Iraq.
    They served their country well.

    The afghan campaign was an honourable one. But Iraq? No Saddam No WMD. What more to achieve in Iraq? The job is done and they should send our kids home.

14. #14
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:25 pm, Erik said:

    Curiously absent from the criticisms of Moore’s less-than-worthy-of-Descartes logic last night was also his Bluto-like command of history, where he tried to tie the Germans to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I’m not sure why O’Reilly didn’t call him on it … guess his mind was on a different track. Come to think of it, Moore is somewhat like Belushi’s Bluto, without the charm, grace, or likeability.

15. #15
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:28 pm, Gator said:

    Dude… have you ever seen Crawford, Texas…

    I’m not sure there is a gated community in that town… the press had to go find hotels in Waco when the President first vacationed there…

    Rural would better epitomize Crawford, than ‘gated community’…

    Gated community you’d find in say… Boston… I’m just saying.

16. #16
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:31 pm, Lester said:

    Surge,

    people have a choice to join the military or not join it. If men and women want to join the armed forces, that’s their decision; parents may or may not support them, but that decision is the son or daughter’s to make alone.

17. #17
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:31 pm, Scott B said:

    I have a personal answer to Mickey, here: http://homepage.mac.com/sbooneaz/iblog/C1719231048/E1718806066/index.html

18. #18
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:31 pm, Gator said:

    More education for Surge Crawford, TX

    Waco probably has upperclass gated communities…

    Kileen, probably not…

    Temple… maybe near the university so the profs have some place to keep them safe from the rabble.

19. #19
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:34 pm, Lester said:

    For some of the military the job isn’t done and they don’t know when it will be done. This can be clearly seen in the light of what happened to Pat Tillman. Afghanistan was surely liberated, but him and the rest of his army rangers had to do some cleaning up in the region, as it so happened Pat Tillman was unfortunately gunned down in combat. Insurgents still lurk around; There is no rest till these insurgents are eliminated.

20. #20
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:37 pm, andy bonifacio said:

    How about you MICHELLE MALKIN? Would you send your CHILD to war in iraq???

21. #21
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:38 pm, Lester said:

    Scott, great blog entry. I laughed when I read that your son called that wanker michael moore stupid. That was inspiring

22. #22
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:40 pm, Lester said:

    I’m pretty sure Michelle wouldn’t want to send her kids to Iraq, but for one she legally can’t do that. Those that look into joining the armed forces Andy, should only be legal adults around the age of 18. By that time, he or she will have gained some freedom; enough of it to say that he or she will join the armed forces and his or her parents have no final say on the matter.

23. #23
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:42 pm, james said:

    why not just, “yes”?

24. #24
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:43 pm, abel said:

    Lester, insurgents will be eliminated if we use our WMD.

25. #25
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:43 pm, Chris said:

    Yep, a guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth has an easier life than the poor people. There is a news flash.

    But the vast majority of the “underprivaledged” class do NOT join the military, so they obviously have other choices.

    ANd when they do join, they make an agreement to go and fight when and where and why they are told too. They knew it going in. If they thought they were signing up for a good job and college money during peace time when there would be no risk to their health they were fools. And they were made totally aware of the risks when they joined, if they were incapable of recognizing the risk prior to that.

    No one is “forced” into the military. To suggest they are is to spit on their self-sacrificing decision to choose the difficult and dangerous road of defending one’s country as their occupation.

    To suggest that they died for nothing while in Iraq is to spit on their graves for answering the call to uphold the agreement they made when they joined the military and their loyalty to their oath.

    But then, spitting on veterans is something the left has been doing for a long time.

    You will never find a bigger hate-monger in the world than a liberal. And always so misguided.

26. #26
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:45 pm, John Davies said:

    I saw Michael Moore’s question differently. It was like going to the parents of someone who died on the way to work and asking them if it was worth it for the person to die for a paycheck.

    The person driving to work and the person in the military both are doing a job that has a chance of causing their death.

    Each person going to fight in Iraq accepted that they had a possibility of being killed, but Moore’s question is in the past tense and refers to a certainty.

    (This is not meant to diminish the sacrifice of the military or to imply that driving to work is as risky as fighting a war)

27. #27
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:46 pm, Lester said:

    Abel, it’s not easy because we have to worry about innocent civilians. Yes, some get hurt albeit incidentally, but moreover if we just go out and nuke the place that wouldn’t look so great in the eyes of the world. I guess you clearly forgot the purpose of the war in Iraq, it is to liberate the people (innocent) of Iraq.

    James, was that yes directed at my statement?

    Clearly even to this day that some can’t distinguish between a child and an adult.

28. #28
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:47 pm, sky king said:

    Mr. Moore, I volunteered for and served in Vietnam. My son volunteered for and served in Afghanistan and Iraq in Special Ops. Where did you volunteer to serve, kind sir? We don’t volunteer our children, Mr. Moore. Would we rather our children not go in harm’s way? Of course, but we understand that there is a higher calling and that freedom (sorry for the cliche) has a price. What’s your price, Mr. Moore?

29. #29
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:47 pm, Laurence Simon said:

    “There are hundreds of millions of people starving in this world. Would you personally be willing to sacrifice three or four meals a day to help feed them all?”

30. #30
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:48 pm, Not a Pea Brain said:

    “But those choices can be limited by institutionalized and systematic conditions that work against us.”

    Only in pea brains (such as yours)

31. #31
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:49 pm, Lester said:

    looks like mr moore could let go of three times that amount (no pun intended on overweight people, apologize if I offended any)

32. #32
    On July 28th, 2004 at 12:56 pm, JEF said:

    I thought O’Reilly missed an opportunity to persue Moore on his comment that he would have taken out Hitler before he came to power. 1. Based on what? His intelligence agencies? 2. If he did and was caught, America would have been at war with Germany. This would have made us the bad guy in Europe. England, France, Russia, Italy and everyone else would have joined in ON GERMANY’S side to repel the imperialist warmongers. Remember these were the days of Neville Chamberlin.

33. #33
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:00 pm, Joanna Smith said:

    Too bad he doesn’t have a problem with the “minutemen” in Iraq and Hezbollah sacrificing their children in murder-bomb attacks.

34. #34
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:01 pm, abel said:

    Lester, the war in Iraq is making us lose respect.

    Our allies Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Philippines they don’t want to be part of this mess.

35. #35
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:07 pm, Gator said:

    Feh. I’ve lost respect for Canada, France, Germany, Spain…

    Never had much respect for the Philippines as a country.

36. #36
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:10 pm, David2 said:

    Right on John Derbyshire!! And it is easily possible to loathe M. Moore even if you child, thankfully, hasn’t died defending the free world in a very complicated war.

37. #37
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:12 pm, Surge said:

    “More education for Surge Crawford, TX

    Waco probably has upperclass gated communities…

    Kileen, probably not…

    Temple… maybe near the university so the profs have some place to keep them safe from the rabble.” Gator

    Gator,

    Thanks for clarifying, Gator.
    My mistake. I’m not too familiar with the “good” and “bad” neighborhoods in Texas, obviously. Sorry. Thanks for clarifying, Gator.

    See, we progressives have NO problem admitting we are wrong (sometimes).

38. #38
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:12 pm, abel said:

    Gator, mayber you’re not Italin. You don’t know the meaning of respect.

39. #39
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:14 pm, jeff said:

    Obviously Gator is not italian…but i like that quote.

40. #40
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:16 pm, Surge said:

    ‘Too bad he doesn’t have a problem with the “minutemen” in Iraq and Hezbollah sacrificing their children in murder-bomb attacks.

    Posted by Joanna Smith at July 28, 2004 01:00 PM ”

    Actually, Joanna, Moore addresses this issue in his movie Fahrenheit 9/11. Have you seen it yet?

    Have ANY of you seen this guy’s movie?

41. #41
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:18 pm, Jeff said:

    I thought that was the obvious answer (the first answer), even as Moore was asking it.

    When he gave congress members the forms to send their children to the military, I thought it was pretty stupid. No parent sends their kids to war. Recruits sign up on their own. They aren’t sent to the Army by their parents.

42. #42
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:19 pm, dave said:

    Gator is not French either. He’s got no class.

43. #43
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:19 pm, GWB said:

    abel,
    You’re right (unwittingly), “the war in Iraq is making us lose respect.” It is making most Americans lose what little respect that remained for “old Europe”, lefist statists (like the most prominent Democrats), and doofus’ like Moore.

    My favorite quote from the Air Force Academy:
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which things that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his [or his children's] own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. (John Stuart Mill)

44. #44
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:34 pm, Chris said:

    Parents do not send their kids to war and Presidents do not send their kids to war. Congress send them to war. Just as they did in this case.

    And they did not do it because Bush lied to them. They saw/heard all the same evidence that Bush and his team of advisors were using to base their decisions.

    Is Moore and the rest of the left suggesting that congress as a whole voted on this war solely because Dubbya stood up and said we need to go to war because he “thinks” it is a good idea. Get real.

    COngress voted to go to Iraq because the evidence available at the time suggested that it was the right course.

    All those sons and daughters that freely joined the armed forces were then asked to honor their oath to serve. And they did.

45. #45
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:35 pm, Surge said:

    You wanna know what this O’Reilly/ Moore debate proved?

    That O’Reilly’s simplistic generalizations about important issues and vindictive, narrow-minded and bullying attacks and views are easily refuted and laid to waste because he can’t stand by them or back them up with facts.

    Have you folks read the transcript of this debate on Fox News’ website?

    Moore made mincemeat out of O’Reilly.

46. #46
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:36 pm, Chris said:

    And for what reasons should we care about the respect of France or Germany or Canada? In what ways have they done anything to earn our respect?

    They have never showed the slightest interest in doing anything to garner our respect. The respect issue is a dead horse and the left should drop it.

    We simply do not care.

47. #47
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:38 pm, Gator said:

    YAY!… I’m neither French nor Italian (or Italin ?????)

    I’m am American… (with German, Scott roots…)

    Face it folks, the only people sending their children to war are the palestinians… Here in the free-world we have our soldiers sign up to go to war. We don’t send children, people’s children have the choice to sign up or not…

    Well except if their mothers are wearing one of the fashionable brown t-shirts, in which the choice to not die die in war was made pre-emptively for them… nevertheless, they are still dead.

48. #48
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:42 pm, Rodney said:

    Unfortunatly Michael Moore and the Hollywood elite have no concept of Sacrifice.

    They are so sheltered and self involved they think all people are like them or want to be like them. So to volunteeer for the military, make a sacrifice for the good of the many and live life selflessly is way too much for them to comprehend.

    They won’t even do a charity even without lots of demands and lots of press.

    So to them, a child going to war is just crazy. That’s for us little people not them.

49. #49
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:46 pm, GWB said:

    And since I broke out the quotes…
    I want to hear somebody sing this verse of our National Anthem:
    O thus be it ever when free men shall stand
    Between their lov’d homes and the war’s desolation
    Blest with vic’try and peace, may the heav’n-rescued land
    Praise the pow’r that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
    Then conquer we must when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
    And the star spangled banner in triumph shall wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

50. #50
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:46 pm, Pouncer said:

    Am I the only person left in America who hears the phrase “sacrifice your son” and thinks of Abraham and Isaac paralleling God and Christ?

    I take the question from Moore as a deliberate slap at persons of faith such as myself. Moore sets himself up as an authority, like God of the Old Testament, to demand of O’Reilly or me a test — if you love, you will obey, even beyond your own death, up to the death of your only son. Moore says, if we do not “love” to such extent, we have no love at all. On the other hand, if we accept the test, then we are fools of misguided love — loving unreality, ideals, or idols more than flesh and blood.

    I note, however, the god-of-himself, who-is-like-god “Michael” Moore provides neither an alternative sacrifice nor his own son.

    “Sacrifice” is a trap and a trick. Will the Lord be pleased with calves a year old, with ten thousand rivers of oil?

    It has never been about sacrifice.

    Seek justice, show mercy, and walk humbly with God. That is what I would ask of my son. If the path laid before him leads thru Fallujah or the shadow of the valley of death, I would ask him to walk on. I would pray — beg — of my God to allow me to walk such a path in my son’s stead — but I would never ask that the choice to walk be denied him.

    I suppose I _could_ be reading WAY too much into the word “sacrifice” …

51. #51
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:46 pm, John Furutani said:

    For those asking if others have seen F 9/11:

    If you see Triumph of the Will, and can make a cogent analysis of that film, and then compare it to the Moore film with an honest assessment–I pledge to see F 9/11–wherever I can find it showing for free.

    Triumph of the Will is probably the best propaganda film ever made, cinematically. And it didn’t have to lie, prevaricate, do conjuring tricks with the editing, etc. Once having seen that, I think an open minded person will find it a) much better than F 9/11 and b) the people who vote for Oscars and Palm D’Or base their decisions on factors other than cinematic art.

52. #52
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:46 pm, Chris said:

    Surge,

    I watched the debate. Moore made himself look like a total ass, with poorly thought out messages and juvenile point making.

    He conceded that Bush was told by multiple intelligence sources about the WMD’s but because they were not there, he lied.

    Lets look at Webster’s definition of a lie…

    “A falsehood uttered or acted for the purpose of deception; an intentional violation of truth; an untruth spoken with the intention to deceive.”

    So, obviously the “intention to deceive” was not present since he was acting on intelligence from multiple countries and congress concurred with the validity of said evidence.

    But Moore says “there were no WMD’s, so he lied.”

    Moore is an idiot, taking an opposing view to make money. And the suckers are making him rich. richer that is.

53. #53
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:49 pm, Jack Tanner said:

    I have to agree with Derb almost word for word. I couldn’t be prouder than if one of my children joined the US armed forces. Of course if one of them died I’d grieve but I’d know they died serving their country. The part I agree with is that if some lying bastard tried to exploit my grief for political or financial gain my grief would turn to rage and quickly find an outlet. I have to laugh at anyone who uses anything Moore says or portrays for the basis of calling anyone a liar. His target audience of uninformed gullible fools is making him a zillionaire. There’s a famous saying along the lines of never going broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public and Moore’s living proof of that.

54. #54
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:50 pm, Marty said:

    Maybe Michael (Please Feed Me Some) Moore should get a hold of some of Kerry’s bogus ‘Nam footage and help with tomorrow’s documentary “How to Do the Mekong Delta in 12 Short Weeks, and Pick Up Three Purple Hearts Along the Way”

    Drudge has the story, posted in the last hour, on Kerry’s bogus war footage.

    Has Kerry finished storming the beaches of Cambridge yet?

55. #55
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:52 pm, Surge said:

    “Unfortunatly Michael Moore and the Hollywood elite have no concept of Sacrifice.” Rodney

    Hey, wait a minute! Wasn’t Ronald “The Gipper” Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger part of that “Hollywood elite” you folks always seem to talk about?

    You have no problem with them having no concept of sacrifice, right?

    This is just too easy…

56. #56
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:54 pm, Gator said:

    TO GWB and Pouncer:

    The Battle Hymn of the Republic v.4

    In beauty of the lilies, Christ born across the sea,
    With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me;
    As he died to make men holy, let us live to make men free,
    While God is marching on.

57. #57
    On July 28th, 2004 at 1:59 pm, Hogarth said:

    Moore deingrates voluntary military duty out of jealousy. He had/has neither the moral fortitude nor the physical ability to make the brave and honorable decision ALL of our military members have made. They are all there because of a life decision they have made – unlike Nam, there are no draftees in Iraq.

58. #58
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:01 pm, Surge said:

    “I watched the debate. Moore made himself look like a total ass, with poorly thought out messages and juvenile point making.”
    Chris

    I think it’s the other way around. Otherwise, all of these conservative blogs wouldn’t be trying to come up with the responses O’Reilly FAILED to make in the debate against Moore.

59. #59
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:02 pm, Gator said:

    OTOH, all those right wing blogs aren’t really marching to the O’Reilly talking points…

    but the Moore Kool-Aid drinkers: “Yay team!”

60. #60
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:03 pm, peter said:

    Surge …. why do you suppose Moore is so interested in the health and well-being of my children … when he’s a firm supporter of having them murdered before they’re born?
    Do you think he asks the parents of policemen and firemen if they are willing for their kids to do those dangerous jobs?
    Do you think that huge liberal (in girth if not in brainpower) values any children except maybe his own? He sure keeps his separate …. sending them to private school instead of amongst the “little people” he “represents”.
    And … what makes you think just the “disadvantaged” join the military? Many join because the trades they learn there are second to none and they would be unable to get that education out in YOUR “real world”. My step-son has a pretty doggone good lifestyle now, working for an airline using the Avionics trade he learned in the Navy. Lets see your cites that the makeup of the armed forces – economics-wise – is any different than the population in general.

    Abel …. you know, people who judge their self-worth against how others view them … well, we tend to call them shallow liberals. I, personally, don’t care what you think of me … because I only value the opinions of people that I respect … and the same goes for countries. I could really care less what cheese-eating surrender monkeys think of this country … because they have never shown they have earned our respect … ergo, why would I care what they think. And I think you need to go and read your Funk’n Wagnall’s encylopedia for the definition of allies. None of the countries that you mentioned are currently “allies” … they are either pretending to be neutral or are allied AGAINST OUR INTERESTS. That makes them foe … not friend!

61. #61
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:04 pm, Surge said:

    “I have to agree with Derb almost word for word… The part I agree with is that if some lying bastard tried to exploit my grief for political or financial gain my grief would turn to rage and quickly find an outlet.” Jack Tanner

    So if your child died in Iraq, you’d let it out on Bush and Halliburton?

    Me too.

62. #62
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:07 pm, GWB said:

    Hey Gator, the original (Patton would disagree) had “die to make men free”! And many Civil War troops were younger than what is currently required to enter the US Armed Forces.

63. #63
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:07 pm, Not a Pea Brain said:

    Poor Surge.

    He is the “Child” that Moore wants us all to be.

    (Good thing most of us are not!)

64. #64
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:09 pm, GWB said:

    Don’t feed the pests!

65. #65
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:11 pm, Frog said:

    I don’t think either came out looking wonderful in the debate, but it’s pretty clear that Moore does not understand (or chooses not to understand) the definition of the word “lie”. He claims that Bush lied to the American people, which is simply not true, according to the 9/11 commission, countless prior statements by Democrats (including Clinton), Vladimir Putin, and US and British intelligence believed and promoted the notion that Saddam had WMD’s. For Bush to “lie”, he would have to knowingly make a false statement. He did not. I content that the information given was proven faulty, but that has nothing to do with Bush intending to lie to the American people.

66. #66
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:13 pm, Gator said:

    Underlying Moore’s inability to understand the word ‘lie’ is inherent to his understanding of the word ‘documentary’

    but I digress…

67. #67
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:14 pm, Martin Johnson said:

    I totally agree with most of you. I’d drop Michael Moore out of a bomber ontop of Falluja – that’ll take care of those God-less terrorists! Blubber raining from the skies – take them all out, then that way maybe we can save some of those young people’s lives that Mr. Moore pretends to care so much about!

    I love this sight by the way, not only is Michelle beautiful and gorgeous (yes, I understand that both basically mean the same thing, but some women are worthy of both descriptions at once), but also just as sharp as ever! God broke the mold after he made her, then started making liberal women from old, junky, broken molds…

68. #68
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:15 pm, OverthrowtheChimp! said:

    BUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRY BUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRYBUSH LIED NO BLOOD FOR OIL VOTE KERRY

69. #69
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:18 pm, Chadd said:

    Surge,
    Well, Reagan, Schwarzenegger and Heston make three….out of thousands. So, let’s say that Republicans make up…oh, to be generous, 1/10 of a percent of the “Hollywood Elite.” That means the remaining 99.9% are liberals. I think using “Hollywood Elite” to describe the general political principles of a 99.9% liberal majority isn’t exactly a sweeping generalization.

    See, your mistake is in using “anecdotal” evidence instead of empirical data to make your point. It makes you come off a bit on the foolish side, especially when others can turn right around and use the same tactics against you. The reason “this is just so easy,” as you put it, is because it’s simply incorrect. Doing things correctly is generally a bit more difficult and requires serious thought and study.

70. #70
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:19 pm, Chris said:

    Chimp,

    yep, loud and often…but nothing to back it up.

71. #71
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:26 pm, Frog said:

    Thanks Chimp! I’ll follow your advice and vote for “KerryBush”. Doh!

72. #72
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:29 pm, Nascarfan said:

    I don’t think Michael Moore should be allowed to sacrifice children at all. He should be arrested and thrown in jail for murder. Any fool can see that sacrifice is murder.

73. #73
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:32 pm, Athos said:

    Trying to stay on topic – and resisting the urge to fisk Abel – this question was a topic of conversation last night after my wife and I watched the interview. My comments were very much in line with John Derbyshire and Michele Catalano. It would be their decision, but if that was it, I would be proud of my child – to serve the country and to fight to bring peace and freedom to others.

    This question really comes down to a major fundamental difference between the MM and others in this country – he doesn’t think that freedom or democracy has any cost – or any cost that he is willing to pay. Pretty callous given his millions.

74. #74
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:45 pm, Paddy said:

    I agree that the idea of an eighteen year old as a “child” is just moronic. But where is Mr. Moore’s outrage for the 12-17 year olds that have strapped bombs to themselves and killed U.S. soldiers after all there years of life had been filled with anti American and anti-western ideology? He wouldn’t dare, because Mr. Moore is everything that foreigners hate about the United States… fat, lazy, in-your-face and an arrogant loudmouth…

    Cheers,

    Paddy

75. #75
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:56 pm, Frog said:

    Did you also notice pick up on the fact that Moore’s response to the notion that we helped bring democracy to Iraq was that , based on his logic, would have risen up on their own and defeated Hussein. Clearly, the Iraqi people were just biding their time…

76. #76
    On July 28th, 2004 at 2:58 pm, Ben Schumin said:

    Michael Moore really should count his blessings. He very probably falls into the top 5% of incomes in this country. I don’t see what his big complaint would be. He’s one of the few people who’s taxes actually went down in the past four years.

    Personally, I’m a rich man, and a Republican. I’ve been living on cloud 9! My company has been cleaning up, financially, of course. All those pain in the neck environmental restrictions we used to have to listen to? No one comes around to enforce them anymore! I pay so little in taxes now, I’m surprised it’s not a crime!

    Michael Moore and all those movie stars like Barbara Streisand Whoopie Goldberg should just put their feet up and enjoy the ride.

    Four more years!

77. #77
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:09 pm, Gator said:

    ‘course for an uprising in a country to occur, the populous must be armed with some weapons…

    Didn’t take Mike to be such a supporter of the right to bear arms…

78. #78
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:09 pm, Joanna Smith said:

    Surge

    >Have ANY of you seen this guy’s movie?

    I haven’t seen it because I don’t support mind pollution. So there’s another liberal fallacy shot down — that conservatives don’t support environmental issues. LOL

    If Moore is all crocodile teary because those whom he calls “minutemen” are using their kids as murder-bombs, great. Funny we never hear a word from Moore about there being no more Sadaam rape rooms and child prisons in Iraq though. Seems just a wee bit inconsistent, but then liars always are inconsistent.

79. #79
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:11 pm, actus said:

    I hate it when i think of a good answer too late.

80. #80
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:14 pm, Brando said:

    Moore is very troubled man, who manipulates us all to get attention. This is not a question he asks. It is a setup and simply dishonest. There is no sacrafice, there are choices, and there are no children , but young aduts and parents.

    It is much like the woman with the abotion T shirts. Some people will doing vertually anything to focas attention to themselves.They get what they want unless they are ingnored. Both are remarkably unsafe people…….

    The question for Mr Moore might be . What would you be sacraficing to stop eating like a pig….Or why are you sacraficing your health and longivity by remaining obese? Those are real questions

81. #81
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:19 pm, Liberal Larry said:

    “No, I don’t have children. But I’d send my puppy in a heartbeat.”

82. #82
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:31 pm, Surge said:

    “Only a collosal moron would think that Bush or Halliburton are responsible.” Chris

    I didn’t say they were responsible. I said they are PROFITING politically and financially at the expense of 9/11, our strained Armed Forces and dead American soldiers.

    Learn how to read before you start rattling off base remarks, and making yourself look like a mindless sheep.

    RIF=Reading Is Fundamental

83. #83
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:35 pm, C Burns said:

    When I got my tax break for being in the top 1%, I immediately installed a rain forest depleter on the back of my Hummer. I have farmed out labor in Brazil to send lumber (unchecked at our ports), so that I can spit out the mulch at our ever-growing homeless population as I drive home to my gated community in Crawford, Texas, population ~ 631.

    Tonight I’m powering up my DVD with surround sound and watching ‘Sister Act II, Back in the Habit’. Either that, or I’ll watch the news report that links the growing U.S. economy to laissez-faire environmental restriction enforcement.

    Sorry to be so off-topic, but I’m the only type of person W cares about, so I can say what I want.

84. #84
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:39 pm, Surge said:

    “Funny we never hear a word from Moore about there being no more Sadaam rape rooms and child prisons in Iraq though. Seems just a wee bit inconsistent, but then liars always are inconsistent” Joanne Smith

    You’d be quite suprised at his consistency, especially in his movie. But you haven’t seen the movie, so you wouldn’t understand.

    For patriots who uphold American ideals, many of you surprise me because of how easily you yell “Guilty” without giving a person a chance to speak their case and prove their innocence.

    I mean, for cripes-sakes, many of you haven’t even seen any of Moore’s work and you hate the guy because Michelle, Rush or Hannity told you to hate them.

    Unbelievable.

85. #85
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:42 pm, Joanna Smith said:

    Surge

    >…vindictive, narrow-minded and bullying attacks and views are easily refuted and laid to waste because he can’t stand by them or back them up with facts.

    Which is exactly why Moore’s film has been shredded to mincemeat by people like Christopher Hitchens, Andrew Bolton, and scores of others.

    >Have you folks read the transcript of this debate on Fox News’ website?

    Yes, I read it. I even admit that Moore won that particular debate. However Christopher Hitchens has offered to take on Moore in a public debate.. as has Larry Elder. Too bad Moore keeps running away from anyone with any intellect heft.

    Apparently “simple-mindedness” is his forum of choice.

86. #86
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:46 pm, Surge said:

    And for those who are getting on the “Moore’s arguments are based on B.S.” bandwagon, I’ve got a link for YOU!

    http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/index.php?id=24

87. #87
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:47 pm, dave said:

    You don’t care your dollar shrinking value, burns?

88. #88
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:50 pm, Not a Pea Brain said:

    Surge is a simple “Child” – yet you fools try to argue with it like it is an independent adult! How foolish!!

    Surge is a pea-brained Slave, Moore is its Master. See the connection?

    By taking either SERIOUSLY you are degrading yourself into a SLAVE and CHILD.

    Shame on all of you, especially those who know better, for wasting a second to seriously consider the “reasoning” of Children and those that bully Children.

89. #89
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:51 pm, James Kotthoff said:

    I see the ranters are out in force…yes surge and abel I do mean you too.
    I served in the military, my brother did, my step brother and cousin are active now … in fact my father and grandfather both served. My family has been involved in every conflict since World War 2 and not one has ever been drafted. We all served by choice and with pride. Have I had family members die in war, Yes. Did my family grieve, Yes. Am I proud that my relatives gave their lives for the freedom we enjoy, Hell Yes!
    Surge complains that only poor people join the service…wrong. And the fact is when you join the service you do so knowing that you may have to go to war and risk your life. Those that join do so knowing the risks.
    As for Michael Moore and F/911. He has made 3 “documentries” and not one has been acurate so I am still waiting for him to make a documentry…not a fictional movie.
    And the comments about Bush lying…Give Me A Break!!! We had this discussion before Faulty Intelligence is not the same as Fabricated Intelligence. And the fact is when you talk about lying Bill Clinton has every president to date beat hands down.
    I will leave you with one final thought.
    Freedom that you are not willing to lay down your life for is no freedom at all.

90. #90
    On July 28th, 2004 at 3:57 pm, Lisa said:

    Yeah Brando! Why is he so fat? Can’t he control himself? He certainly knows what everybody else should do. I do agree with Jeff that O’Reilly didn’t come off that well either. But I am not surprised by that. I get sooo frustrated with Bill sometimes. I will be yelling at the t.v.,say this or that,and he lets things go! Ahhhhhh!!

91. #91
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:06 pm, Chris said:

    Wow surge, a link to moore’s own site as verification that moore is right. So, where is his list of Fahrenheit 9/11 facts that were not supported by the commission or any other source?

    ANd most of us have seen all this already. We don’t need to see the movie. The premises laid out in the movie have been discussed in detail in numerous forums. Information supporting and contradicting his claims has also been discussed in detail.

    Just because someone has not seen Tora! Tora! Tora! is hardly grounds to insinuate they don’t know the historical background of Pearl Harbor. And the fact that I have not helped line Moores pockets because HE exploited the events and victims of Sept 11th does not mean I am unfamiliar with his take on it.

    If you want to make him richer, go right ahead. After all, he is just looking out for the little guy right? He didn’t profit off the deaths of thousands without sharing any of the money with the people he exploited right? Oh, wait. Yes he did! More than anybody else in the country right now. Moore is the king of exploitation profits thanks to the mindless sheep that line his pockets with their seven bucks and then blindly back the bs.

92. #92
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:07 pm, Lisa said:

    Joanna,You are so right when you say that Moore runs away from anyone who could really “kill” him in a debate. Hitchens would be great,but I won’t hold my breath for that big coward to agree to it,he knows he would lose BIG time.

93. #93
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:10 pm, Joanna Smith said:

    Surge

    >You’d be quite suprised at his consistency, especially in his movie. But you haven’t seen the movie, so you wouldn’t understand.

    Oh, you mean “consistent” like his using slimy innuendo implying Bush is a toady of the Saudis? Then, later, maligning Bush for starting a war in Iraq — that FYI, did Moore mention?, the Saudis were dead set against? They wouldn’t even give the U.S. airspace.

    You know, having oil flowing in Iraq doesn’t exactly help Saudi oil revenues…so what was that about Bush being in the Saudi’s pockets again?

    It’s just a fabric of lies and logical non-sequitors throughout.

94. #94
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:17 pm, Lisa said:

    Surge, I do not hate Moore because Hannity,Michelle,Rush,or ANYONE else told me to! Is that how YOU come to your conclusions? I have core values from my Religion that instruct me as to what is right and wrong,and what Moore is in favor of is wrong.

95. #95
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:17 pm, LarryConley said:

    From:http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc4.htm

    O: Just the issues. You’ve got three separate investigations plus the president of Russia all saying… British intelligence, US intelligence, Russian intelligence, told the president there were weapons of mass destruction, you say, “he lied.” This is not a lie if you believe it to be true, now he may have made a mistake, which is obvious –
    M: Well, that’s almost pathological – I mean, many criminals believe what they say is true, they could pass a lie detector test –
    O: Alright, now you’re dancing around a question –
    M: No I’m not, there’s no dancing
    O: He didn’t lie
    M: He said something that wasn’t true
    ========================
    WElll well.. so THAT’s the new standard for truth.. I do so hope that it gets applied to everyone the same way..including Michael “The Liar” Moore

96. #96
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:21 pm, Surge said:

    I see the ranters are out in force…yes surge and abel I do mean you too.
    I served in the military, my brother did, my step brother and cousin are active now … in fact my father and grandfather both served. My family has been involved in every conflict since World War 2 and not one has ever been drafted. We all served by choice and with pride. Have I had family members die in war, Yes. Did my family grieve, Yes. Am I proud that my relatives gave their lives for the freedom we enjoy, Hell Yes!
    Surge complains that only poor people join the service…wrong. And the fact is when you join the service you do so knowing that you may have to go to war and risk your life. Those that join do so knowing the risks.” James Kotthoff

    James,

    I have a cousin who is serving now, and had an uncle who served in Vietnam. I say had, because my uncle killed himself because he couldn’t stop those recurring nightmares of dead Americans and Vietnamese women and children.

    They enlisted out of their own volition, to protect our right to debate here today. Am I proud of them, HELL YEAH!

    But I’m not proud of our President, who’s policies are needlessly endangering the lives of Young American women and men. His war is based on ideological ends, which are failing miserably.

    And will you people decide what we went to Iraq for? First, Bush said Iraq presented an “imminent danger” with it’s WMD’s (based on faulty info which he latched onto immediately and didn’t bother to double check). The U.N. inspectors told him their were NO WMD’s.

    Now, since the “faulty/fabricated information” didn’t pan out, we’re “liberating” the Iraqi people.

    Why didn’t Reagan and Bush I liberate them when Saddam was gassing Kurds and torturing political opponents in the 80′s through early 90′s?

    Cuz’ Saddam was our pal!

    Here’s pics, research AND video to prove this: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

    Iraq NEVER attacked us. The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudis!

    Take the blinders off, folks. This isn’t that hard to comprehend.

    Like I said earlier, I’d ENLIST in a war to protect our freedoms, just like my uncle and cousin did, but not a war that’s based on B.S.

97. #97
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:32 pm, Not a Pea Brain said:

    There, there Surge. Your Masters will soon take care of those scary wingnuts and their evil REALITY.

    Keep harping the talking points. Remember to to vote for Mr. Kerry and give Big Mike his millions and it will be all right little child. Maybe you will get a cookie!

    Now be a good child and go to bed.

98. #98
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:33 pm, CrazyFool said:

    Can’t want for Michael Moron’s coverage of the Republician Convention. Where people actually [are allowed] to think for themselves.

    I can’t see Michael giving up even a meal (any meal) for freedom. It just isn’t in him.

    Like the rest of the Hollywod Elite (and I dont consider Reagan, Arnold, or Heston as ‘elite’) they would be more then willing to stand buy and cheer [the opposition] as our sons and daughters die defending their freedom.

    I would be proud if my son joined the military to defend his country.

    Surge, when did Bush say Iraq presented an “imminent danger”? He *NEVER* said that. In fact he went out of his way to point out that Iraq was not an imminent danger but should be taken out *BEFORE* it became one. (i.e. before it was capable to launching a nuke at Israel or Kuwait and killing millions of innocent people) This is the whole idea behind the pre-emptive policy — to prevent a strike.

    Saddam was our ‘pal’ only after President Carter left us no choice. Carter abandoned the Shah(sp?) of Iran (not to mention 52 embassy personal) and left us with no choice but to go with Iraq.

99. #99
    On July 28th, 2004 at 4:36 pm, Athos said:

    Surge- you state – “nd will you people decide what we went to Iraq for? First, Bush said Iraq presented an “imminent danger” with it’s WMD’s (based on faulty info which he latched onto immediately and didn’t bother to double check). The U.N. inspectors told him their were NO WMD’s.”

    One, President Bush never used the word imminent. Bush said in the State of the Union address – “Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.”

    At what point would you start to worry if someone standing opposite you pulled out a gun and started to load it? When they pulled out the gun? When it was being loaded? When it was loaded and pointed at you? Or only after it was fired at you?

    Then you claim the UN inspection group said there were no WMD. That is also untrue. Blix indicated that Iraq was not cooperating in the manner of UN 1441, and that it couldn’t ascertain that it had WMD or programs without more time to search. Yet, at the same time, Russian intelligence said Iraq had WMD, French intelligence said Iraq had WMD, British intelligence said Iraq had WMD, and US intelligence said Iraq had WMD. Even in the first reports post war by David Kay, he defined Iraq in material breach of UNSC1441 – with programs undisclosed and still continuing. Your premise of now WMD is based on the US not finding WalMart sized warehouse with neatly stacked and labeled materials saying WMD.

    The rest of your claims are as intellectually dishonest as those. But then, never let something as trivial as facts get in the way of a good rant.

100. #100
     On July 28th, 2004 at 4:45 pm, abel said:

     Why did the older Bush not finish Saddam before?

     Because we were making lotsa money from him.

     He was like a pitbull on leash threatening his oil rich neighbours. If there is a threat…there is demand…for fighter planes, tanks, bombs and we supplied most of those good stuff. In the 90′s, oil rich arabs like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia etc. bought hundreds of billions stacking up their armada of F16s and all the works.

     The French, British arms suppliers also made a killing but we made most out of it.

     After we’ve saturated the demand there was no more need for Saddam…it was personal (perhaps the oil) The little Bush wants to finish what his Dad started. That is why he is so eager go after Saddam…WMD or not, Al Qaeda link or not…let’s make it up.