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1. #1
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 5:50 pm, Carl P said:

   This just goes to show that most of the “problems” kids have today are directly related to bad parenting and lack of God’s guidance.

2. #2
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:19 pm, Dave Munger said:

   And we wouldn’t want them to pick up their social skills in a natural, non- institutional environment, like, say, playing with neighborhood kids. To this day, I am virtually incapable of making friends outside of a cafeteria-like setting!

3. #3
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:20 pm, Hal Bowman said:

   Socialization is not what interests me in this article. I have the same questions that the authors did about parental subject knowledge and resources.

   Let’s just assume that any home schooling family has the authors’ last question, about incomes, worked out (though how this works for single parent homes is unclear to me). I’m more interested in how folks teach high school level subjects. I know I couldn’t teach my kids chemistry or any foreign languages without a very big investment in time. It would cost a lot of dough for me to aquire all the equipment used to teach me science in high school. And what if my kid wanted to go to Vo-tech school and learn to be a mechanic?

   I’d suggest two different approach for concerned parents. 1) Private or parochial school, if possible. 2) band together and take control of the local public school board.

4. #4
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:22 pm, G.GIlbertson said:

   If Mr. Feinberg is worried about stagnant emotional muscles from homeschooling then I am confused… Is this the same public schools that want to do away with the emotional trauma of testing or having winners and losers in school curriculums?

   You know so they can be effective when they are cast out of the “cloistered environment” upon graduation.

5. #5
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:23 pm, BorderAgent said:

   How dumb to assume that kids not in school don’t get socialized. What about boy and girl scouts? What about extra curricular activities outside of school? At our church there are two families that home school. Do you suppose they get any socialization at church? Both of those families are a part of a larger home schooling group that shares the burden of teaching. If there is a mother who is really good in math, she helps all the children to learn math. If there is a mother who speaks spanish really well, she helps the children learn their spanish.

   What nonesense it is to pretend that socialization is a problem. If this is the best they can come up with it demonstrates how much trouble they are in.

6. #6
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:28 pm, christina said:

   I have a rehearsed answer to the inevitable socialization question. When someone asks if we are concerned about our children’s socialization, I say, “Yes, we are very concerned, that’s why we homeschool!”

7. #7
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:37 pm, Phelps said:

   Hal, exactly how much lab work do you think happens in a public high school? I was in public high school (graduated 94) and I spent maybe a grand total of two hours doing honest-to-goodness lab work, and an hour of that was dissecting one $4 frog. I had a better microscope at home than I did at school, and my family wasn’t even middle class.

   The school had lots of flashy stuff that various agencies had purchased — and I wasn’t allowed to touch any of it. And I was an honor student.

8. #8
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:40 pm, Kim said:

   Socialization is about the most idiotic concept some have re. homeschooling. I am sick and tired of hearing it. We’ve been homeschooling for several years–2 have graduated and are doing very well I might add.. My children interact with people in and outside of their peer group on a daily basis and in many different settings. Most of our children have been overseas to visit another country.

   To me, spending 6-8 hours a day in a contained classroom with people mostly in your peer group is not socialization. Some of us homeschoolers call it the “s” word…

   Homeschooling is not for everyone but it’s a way of life for many of us and it’s not just religious fundamentalists who homeschool. We happen to be Christians but we also know of many non-Christians who homeschool and for the same reasons we do–we can do a better job and we know our children’s wants, needs, and interests better than anyone.

9. #9
   On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:40 pm, christina said:

   “I have the same questions that the authors did about parental subject knowledge and resources.”
   Hal Bowman

   Why can’t homeschoolers learn with their children? I didn’t know much about ancient history when I tackled it with my children this year. We got a ton of great books and learned together. Maybe I’m not capable of teaching algebra or chemistry. But I know where to find people that can; community college, private tutors, or even friends and family. Besides, many advanced curriculums are developed for independent learners, which is what I hope to encourage my children to become. I don’t understand why this is such an issue.

10. #10
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:41 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    Hal, of course you are. It takes attention from the horrific academic (now vastly inferior to counterparts in the EU- or American public schools of 50 years ago), social (Dave Munger nailed it and I simply add, what’s school for but to learn the proper use of an expletive in a sentence or being fawned by a perverted left-wing NEA sycophant to taste a condom) or athletics (home-schoolers tend to eat better and be more active than public school goers.) Home schoolers are less-likely to spend their afternoons after school sitting in front of the TV and are much more likely to have a civic social conscience, while their public school counterparts can only string together single-syllable sentences about sex-bracelets and Brittany Speers. Then there is the matter of teacher-apathy. Common sense tells you which group of educators is more likely to write off your kid.

    I would go on, but I need not. Home schoolers have out-performed their counterparts hands-down in spelling-bees and academic exams across the board since such metrics began being kept. I and Many of my home-schooled friends began college at 16. One graduated from Texas A&M at 17. The public educators do help their kids out-strip the home-schoolers in one area however. But we shouldn’t really go over that again. Suffice it to say that we who were home-schooled enjoyed countless moments at the expense of our oft-poorly educated counterparts. Now that I’m older of course, I feel for them. After all, their poor education and indoctrination led many of them to think Clinton was the man to vote for in ’96.

    As far as parental involvement with the school board, I think all citizens need to take charge there. But we also need to get rid of the bureaucrats in the Department of Dys-Education and knock the corrupt and self-seeking Left-wing agenda-driven NEA union from its pretty little perch. They will never deviate from the dangerous ideology of their founder.

    For divorced, widowed or parents who cannot commit the investment of time for home schooling or find it better for their individual child to do so, they should take advantage of a private school. Private schools will also teach your children to read and find the US on a map of North America and as such is also a wonderful alternative to public schools.

11. #11
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:49 pm, George said:

    Mr. (or is it “Dr.”) Feinberg is, like most school psychologists, a joke.

    Let me qualify my statement by noting that I have a Ph.D. in cognitive psychology (psychophysics, actually, but that was within the cognitive area), and jettisoned a career in “school psychology” to get a real education.

    School psychologists get a smattering of developmental, clinical, social, and personality psychology, along with some rudimentary psychometrics (testing) and statistics. But their coursework is so broad that, professionally, they’re a mile wide and an inch deep. They know a little about everything - just enough to be dangerous.

    I would ask Mr./Dr./Whatever Feinberg: how in the world did kids get socialized before there were public schools (1635 - Boston Latin)? Was “society” and “socialization” nonexistent before that date?

12. #12
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:50 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    Thugz- far from Robert Frost. Commercial tripe will not teach children proper English and will not help, but harm them in the workplace. But nice try.

13. #13
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:52 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    George, I think the answer is that Mr. not-so-Feinberg means the “other” form of socialization re: “National Socialism”.

14. #14
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:53 pm, Geoff Matthews said:

    Sometimes, the socialization at school leaves the kid worse off. Bullying or abusive teachers are far worse for a kid than not seeing other children between 9 and 4. As well, socializing at school could lead a child into such wonderful experiences as drugs and teen parenthood (not to mention the teacher’s social agenda). Sometimes the institution is the problem.
    As far as teaching high school subjects, there are a lot of internet resources out there for teaching these subjects. And some districts will allow parents to send their kids to school for some classes (ie, band, drama, sports) while learning the others at home.

15. #15
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:57 pm, akaky said:

    The lack of socialization of homeschoolers is a canard and anyone with half a brain realizes this. The NEA and the AFT are more interested in maintaining their monopoly on public education in this country than they are in actually educating. That being the case, any movement that removes children from the public schools and then shows how badly those very same schools are educating the children who remain must be slandered lest more people start wondering how the education establishment is spending their tax money. The same sort of attitude also comes up with regard to parochial schools. The call for smaller class size is all very well and good, but no one at the NEA wants to explain how once upon a time one nun could teach forty kids in one class room and actually educate them while public school teachers today can’t seem to do that with classes half that size. But I am sure they will have an excuse handy; they always do.

16. #16
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 6:58 pm, Deb said:

    I spent my freshman year of high school correcting my algebra teacher’s mistakes. I think somehow I’d manage with my own kids.

    Socialization? Pfft. I would rather my kids be loners than learn socialization skills from the public schools. This has always been an empty argument. I’ve never met a single anti-social homeschooler.

    With all the argument against homeschooling - a few things need to be realized. When public school officials speak out on this, they are in fear of losing their positions. Nothing more, nothing less. Homeschooled children come out way on top of public schooled children, socially and acedemically.

17. #17
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:00 pm, JB said:

    Michelle,

    Thank you for championing home-schoolers.

    I am unable to home-school my daughter, and, as a single parent, cannot afford private or parochial schools. The saddest part of this is that my daughter, who is 14, WANTS to be home-schooled, as she is sick of the public school system in Southern California. She hates the kids for their vulgarity, and the complete lack of desire to learn on the part of so many of them.

    We moved here from a small town in southern Oregon, via Cupertino, CA (Silicon Valley). Both had excellent schools, with involved parents. The parents in San Diego County have given up. They are focused on acquiring bigger houses, more toys. They have given up on ever getting the government to do anything about the overwhelming influx of illegal immigrants, and the accompanying breakdown of discipline in the schools, due to teachers and administrators who are too PC, and won’t even enforce the rules. It is all reflected in their children and their attitudes. Sorry, I didn’t mean to go on a rant, but it’s an extremely frustrating situation, not to mention, very sad.

    Currently, California is trying to outlaw home-schooling. You would think they would encourage it, as it would lessen the burden on the budget. Then again, we’re talking the government here. Sigh.

18. #18
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:03 pm, Frank said:

    Regarding the issue of socialization, I thought immediately of this paragraph from the article by Kyle Williams called “Socialization of homeschoolers,” found at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31539:

    “There is a joke that goes something like this: ‘I used to be worried about the socialization of my homeschooled child, but now I don’t worry. Everyday I take my 8-year-old to the bathroom, beat him up, cuss him out and offer him drugs.’”

19. #19
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:03 pm, Iwana Carpenter said:

    One of our homeschooled kids just finished high school. Options for various secondary subjects include: co-ops (with moms/others teaching specific subjects), courses at local community college (our daughter took five and earned high school and college credits for each), individual courses at public school (our daughter did this as well, but it does depend on the school and if you can maintain your independence), as well as a wealth of excellent material written specifically for homeschoolers. There is also the Abe Lincoln syndrome; our daughter is a voracious reader and has a huge range of interests and knowledge.

    Studies have shown that neither degree nor income determine the quality of a homeschooled child’s education. I have to say that I have a degree in math education, graduating in 1974, and my coursework included a lot of politically correct gobbledygook without a lot of help in learning how to teach. I have learned invaluable things about teaching from homeschool convention seminars and speakers and in talking with other moms.

    It has been hard work for both of us, but I feel prouder of this accomplishment than I do of my college degree.

20. #20
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:20 pm, Joel (No Pundit Intended) said:

    “superior public school socialization”

    Is that what they call sex-ed condom tasting parties these days?

21. #21
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:21 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    This is why we need to allow for school vouchers for parents who want to send their beloved children to private school. They are a guaranteed success story because common sense always beats bureaucracy.

    With regard to what Deb posted, I think the jury is in on this one. The first wave of 20th Century home-schoolers is now grown up and out in the marketplace. How are they fairing compared with their public school friends? From the home-schoolers I have known for years, I can say without hesitation that their quality of life is much better. So is their community because they are a part of it. Deb, another reason the NEA fears home-schools as well as private schools is ideological. Such are the children who are taught to become leaders and are equipped to become the same. And since home-schoolers are typically ideologically conservative or libertarian, some fear these non-sheep will pose a real political threat to the agenda of the Left. Now I said “first wave of 20th Century home-schoolers” because home-schooling was an accepted and very much accepted – not to mention highly successful manner of education for thousands of years. Often it was the only manner of education. Public schools were more often reserved for orphans, who were the ward of the State. I think there is no question how well home-schooling has served America. Has anyone in public education heard anything about Abraham Lincoln? –Well, maybe I assume too much…

22. #22
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:28 pm, Kim said:

    The NEA and their like also fear homeschooling because of the MONEY involved.. Even a very liberal democratic friend I am an aquaintance of (and a homeschooler too) says that.. It’s money and power… You take the # of homeschoolers in any one district and multiply it by the amt of federal dollars a received and that accounts for some of the panic I think..

23. #23
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 7:31 pm, Ben S. said:

    The socialization comment gets eye rolls from homeschoolers every time. Honestly. Yeah, there are a few kids who might be considered a bit “sheltered” (I’ve met some), but they are the minority.

    As for high school classes, I attend a community college for sciences and foreign language, and do my other classes with an online homeschooling program. Where are live, there aren’t a lot of co-ops, but lots of places have a lot of that.

    Anyway, JB: Have you looked into charter schools? I know in my area of San Diego county there are public charter schools with an almost private-school like feeling.

24. #24
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 8:04 pm, Steven Mitchell said:

    Hal said:

    “I know I couldn’t teach my kids chemistry or any foreign languages without a very big investment in time. It would cost a lot of dough for me to aquire all the equipment used to teach me science in high school.”

    Before you get completely piled on, let me answer that. If you aren’t prepared to make that kind of investment (time, money, whatever), then you *shouldn’t* try to homeschool your kids in chemistry or the like. However, your counter suggestions later in that post are based on public/homeschool being some kind of forever mutually exclusive choice. Here’s some other alternatives, depending on where you live and your inclinations:

    1. As others already said, get help from another parent in the home school group.

    2. Have student take 100 level college courses–not much different from high school.

    3. Some high schools allow home schoolers to take selected courses for exactly the reasons you gave.

    4. Concentrate on general learning and do what you can, well. If a kid is *stellar* in reading, composition, mathematics, history, and the like–thanks to a dedicated homeschooling parent–being a bit behind in chemistry and biology doesn’t dictate life destiny–merely freshman course selection.

    None of this is to say that home school kids can’t learn chemistry at home. Many do. But I think even the most fervent home schoolers will agree that the older the kid gets, the more work is generally required (with obvious exceptions for the kids that become “self-starters.”)

    Finally, let us suppose that none of those options will work for Family X, and they still aren’t prepared to make the high school effort. Well, their kids homeschooled through 6th or 8th grade will probably get a heck of a lot more out of a public high school than most.

25. #25
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 8:12 pm, JB said:

    Ben S.:

    Yes, I have inquired about the charter school in my area. I know a couple who work at the charter elementary and high schools. Unfortunately, I inquired too late, and there are no openings. The 8th grade students from the charter elem. are the first accepted into the high school. Any remaining openings are filled by lottery. If you don’t get your child in at the 9th grade level, it is virtually impossible later. I haven’t given up, though.

    Thanks for the thought, and the suggestion. It is refreshing to encounter an articulate, mature youth.

26. #26
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 8:22 pm, Hal Bowman said:

    I went to a run-of-the-mill rural public high school. We had gear I wouldn’t be able to afford, and I’m sure no poor person could either. I had lab science from 7th to 12th grade, at least a few hours per week. We were special? I doubt it. I’ve been to a few such schools since, and I see pretty much the same stuff.

27. #27
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 8:27 pm, Ian Robertson said:

    Socialization and “interaction” are red-herrings used by the school unions to frighten parents who want to home-school.
    The implication is that schoolkids can only play and chatter and “interact” while they are actually at school. When they are not at school they are apparently kept in solitary, soundless dark rooms?
    I suggest that the bulk of socialization occurs out of school, in the neighbourhoods, and in the houses of friends. And what is to stop home-schooled kids from taking part in that process? Nothing. They just don’t have to get off the schoolbus before the process begins.

    Ian Robertson.

28. #28
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:01 pm, Martin aka Blogbat said:

    Yes but Ian, you forget that anything outside of the socialist-preparatory environment in modern public schools is anything from non-productive to counter-productive to the “progress” of the student. Seriously, NEA and related groups have long-talked about how the most dangerous thing to the proper “Socialization” (big “S”) of students are parents and churches. Anyone up for some “Values Clarification” curriculum? Many in the leftist “educators” herd refer to themselves as social “change-agents” who indoctrinate the useful ones and leave the rest illiterate.
    Instead of asking “why home-school” we need to seriously look into, “why public school”. I think we’ve seen enough that the American people need to see if the public school system can justify its existence. The latter is the proper question and arguably the correct cause upon which we now must really focus.

29. #29
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:06 pm, Kim said:

    My daughter did Apologia Chemistry on her own and pulled B’s. It’s not easy either. She loved the labs and algebra is not her strong suit but she did very well. She’s going to do Advanced Biology this coming year.. It’s very possible to teach all that and more…

30. #30
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:11 pm, Cowtipper said:

    I wish that I and my wife had the ability to homeschool. I envy those parents that can.

31. #31
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:19 pm, Holley Minton said:

    What most people don’t understand is that homeschooling isn’t “school at home”. My twin 15 year olds have been at home since third grade. Before school they had been best friends and always laughed and talked together. After two years of elementary school, they were bickering constantly. The week I brought them home, the tension was gone and they were playing together again. I wouldn’t trade one minute of “public school socialization” for the love and consideration my children have for each other.
    By the way, they both test on a post high school level in all subjects after ninth grade.

32. #32
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:56 pm, BradDad said:

    Hal:

    I’m going to treat your comments as honest questions rather than some sort of attack on homeschooling because there was nothing in your post which suggested otherwise - at least, to me.

    There are lots of options:

    1. Homeschool curriculum is written with the realization that the parent teaching might not have a lot of knowledge in the subject. If you can read & follow directions, most parents can get through it and be effective.

    2. There are, of course, subjects which a parent won’t feel comfortable teaching.

    * The “umbrella school” my kids are in happens to have a college professor affiliated with the school who teaches advanced high school subjects in his disciplines.

    In other instances where kids aren’t in a umbrella school or they’re not blessed with college professors affiliated with the school, parents will band together to provide classes in areas where they’re especially qualified. Engineers might teach math, bilingual parents will teach their language, writers/newspaper reporters will teach English, pastors will teach Bible, etc.

    Or they might ’subcontract’ work out. Here in Florida, for example, our community colleges are happy to take anyone willing to pay the fees to take classes, so it’s easy to add college coursework to the homeschool student’s curriculum.

    The most important thing to remember, though, is this - more likely than not, the person teaching your kids in the public school is an “education” major, which means he or she is really only an expert in one thing - “education theory”. Don’t assume he/she has special training in the subject matter he/she teaches.

    What “Home School” means, in this day and age, is that the child’s education is directed by the parents, i.e., the child’s “School” is “Home” - it doesn’t mean the parents teach every class.

33. #33
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 9:56 pm, Curious.. said:

    Can someone provide a good webpage for homeschooling resources?

34. #34
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 10:04 pm, Ari said:

    Michelle: should I assume that you plan to deny your children the wonders of a Montgomery County (MD) Public Schools education?

35. #35
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 10:07 pm, edpi said:

    I encourage everyone to read this essay by Paul Graham. He is dead on in his description of social relations in schools, and it very fine writing indeed. I’ve been out of school for decades; he took me right back.
    http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

36. #36
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 10:59 pm, Wasabi said:

    We homeschool our kids (8 year old boy/girl twins), and are part of an involved co-op in the Central MD area (Howard County, Baltimore County, etc.). Plenty of socialization going on…Positive interaction with kids of above average smarts, politeness, and respect. Home school karate classes, art classes, camps (my daughter has already attended THREE camps this summer created by homeschool parents…this week it’s horseback riding camp), theatre productions, concert series, etc.

    As they get older and further along in their studies, parents who are subject matter experts are taking it upon themselves to offer co-op courses for advanced subjects. There are also commercial curriculum providers such as K12, and community college courses are open to high school students, as well.

    By the way, I was educated in Montgomery County public schools, and I know that my high school is nowhere near the quality it was when I was there in the early 80s. Now, it has the reputation of being downright dangerous. Go figure.

37. #37
    On August 3rd, 2004 at 11:42 pm, Dustin said:

    I would go, in order

    1. Private School
    2. Home School

    Inconclusive: Public School

    First of all, most of my friends growing up were neighborhood kids who weren’t even in the same grade as me, and we went to different schools. Then, most of my friends were from sports leagues I was in like baseball, and then in high school when I got that silly thing called a “job.” Isn’t school a time to learn and not play hook-up?

    As far as quality education concerns, I went to public school after having left private school in the second grade. The other kids didnt catch up until I was in the 5th grade. In 6th grade, I went back to private school and I had fallen so far behind I nearly flunked out…

    I would never subject my child to public education.

38. #38
    On August 4th, 2004 at 12:00 am, hwm said:

    Curious,
    Check out homeschoolfun.com for a start. There are literally thousands of sites. Many are specific to grades and subjects. Google searches are good for finding exactly what you’re looking for. Also, many universities have free online classes. MIT is a forerunner on this kind of service.

39. #39
    On August 4th, 2004 at 12:08 am, Ron said:

    Michelle:

    Worst of all, let’s not forget about the girl whose hair was set afire in a Denver school by by one of her “socialized” peers. For more, cut and paste the following:

    http://www.thewbalchannel.com/education/3349955/detail.html

40. #40
    On August 4th, 2004 at 12:43 am, Blogbat aka Martin said:

    Gennie, sounds like child abuse to me. If I were her, id organize a class-action suit, bring in doctors- the whole nine yards and bring these nazis down I’d also have said group contacting state representitives, as well as federal AND i’d start a nasty letter-writing campaign, get the press involved and finally…add a cherrie on top and call it done! public school nazis do stink.

41. #41
    On August 4th, 2004 at 2:54 am, vanyogan said:

    I have heard the argument about socialization and home schooling. In one word…nonsense! I have a neice and a nephew who are both in college on scholarships. They both received scholarships to a private high school. All this by my religious conservative sister who now works as a social worker. But here is some direct evidence of just how nonsensical this home schooling maladjustment argument is. IT definitely debunks the myth in my own mind. RE:

    U.S. Women’s Open Golf Championship, day one. Read the entire interview. It will crack you up, even if you don’t play golf.
    An Interview with: Brittany Lincicome(18 years old, home schooled)

    RHONDA GLENN: Ladies and gentlemen, Brittany Lincicome, 5-under par, 66, ties the Amateur record set by Carol Semple-Thompson who in 1994 shot a 66 at Indianwood. I believe that was a par-72 course, but we’ll check that for you. But still the number is the same. You started out 1 over par after two holes. And then you just caught fire. Tell us your general impressions of the ground.

    http://www.uswomensopen.com/press/interviews/lincicome-thu.html

42. #42
    On August 4th, 2004 at 7:57 am, Don said:

    Fascinating article, and interesting comments on this thread. My wife and I have no kids(not by choice), but we have friends who have home schooled in the past. The home maker wife has done the teaching, but this fall the kids are going to be going to the local school, which is quite lousy.
    Curious, I asked her husband why, and he responded that she’s burned out.
    I hope that Ms. Malkin won’t mind, but I have two questions related to this.
    1. Is burn out among home school parents common?
    2. What can be done to avoid/recover from burn out?
    Thanks in advance for any tips, etc.

43. #43
    On August 4th, 2004 at 8:55 am, GsOuPx said:

    Just a couple of observations:

    A) We stopped inviting home schooled kids to our daughter’s birthdays after she turned 7 having gotten tired of kids who had 0 sharing skills. We also tired of the parents who defended the poor group behavior of their home schooled child.

    B) Most of the people whom I know who home school, I would not want teaching my children. So, why would I want them treeaching other children?

    C) Home schooling contributes more to a “muti-culturalist” society then public shooling.

44. #44
    On August 4th, 2004 at 8:56 am, GsOuPx said:

    Oops…what a bad thread for typos, eh?