Hot topic: Muslim prayer in public schools
The latest battleground over religious accomodation and sharia creep is the San Diego public school system. The San Diego Union Tribune reports on a Muslim prayer controversy that has parents and at least one teacher questioning the double standards:
A San Diego public school has become part of a national debate over religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned an Arabic language program that gives Muslim students time for prayer during school hours.
Carver Elementary in Oak Park added Arabic to its curriculum in September when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly Somali Muslims.After subbing at Carver, the teacher claimed that religious indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led Muslim students in prayer.
An investigation by the San Diego Unified School District failed to substantiate the allegations. But critics continue to assail Carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate Muslim students who wish to pray. (Those who don’t pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.)
Some say the arrangement at Carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. Others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.
The Muslim grievance groups are in the thick of it:
“These things are surfacing more and more in many places where large communities of Muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our right,” said Antoine Mefleh, a non-Muslim who is an Arabic language instructor with the Minneapolis public schools.
His school allows Muslim students to organize an hour of prayer on Fridays – Muslims typically have Friday congregational prayers – and make up class work they miss as a result. During the rest of the week, students pray during lunch or recess.
The San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations supports the Carver program.
Of course.
Looks like a tricky legal fight ahead:
“This is an area where the law is notoriously erratic,” said Steven Smith, a constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts have said. That means students can say grace before a meal and have Bible study clubs on campus, and several San Diego schools do. Public school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.
Students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, and Good Friday during Holy Week.
The federal Equal Access Act requires that extracurricular school clubs, religious and non-religious, be treated equally.
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We in the West are so delusional.
Under the guise of Globalism, political correctness, “winning the hearts and minds,” “accommodation,” etc, America and Europe are digging their own grave.
The Muslims are exploiting our system of government to their benefit and we, because we are so smart, we let them roam freely like rats in our countries, opening our borders to hoards of them to come and breed like rabbits and slowly, steadily and eventually changing our way of life by forcing us to “accommodate” their primitive barbaric habits, customs and cult called “Islam.”
If we lose the war against Islam, we have only ourselves to blame.
For those of you who brag about being “smart” while allowing the Muslims to invade your land (for the purpose of founding an Islamic empire in the West), I tell you: The Muslims are laughing at you because you are idiots.
What is going on in San Diego? I just read last night that the Padre’s are going to let the Gay Men’s choir of San Diego sing the National Anthem to celebrate “Pride” week, and now I hear this. San Diego has always been one of my favorite places to visit, but not any more.
I am sorry but, prayer has never left schools. I believe the 9th Circuit court ruled that witchcraft is a religion. From that time on, it has been the largest growing religion in our school systems. You can wear your crystals and pentagrams to school freely. Even Harry Potter was brought into the curriculum and kids learned incantations – in school. Islam is just the next logical step. As long as Christ or GOD is left out, you have separation of church and state what ever that means. And, no, it is NOT in the constitution!
Were I a parent in the San Diego school district, I’d say “Fine. But then we’re starting a daily Rosary group for the Catholic students.”
Watch the heads roll.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it a school district in CA that has a unit on Islam - complete with students adopting Muslim names and saying Muslim prayers?
Where’s the ACLU? Where’s all the “seperation of church and state” people who freak out when a valedictorian mentions “Christ” in her graduation speech?
Oh, that’s right - they’re too busy persecuting Christians to worry about Muslims.
Talk about your double standards.
Submit,convert, or die? San Diego is already submitting. This is their way of imposing sharia on everybody else.
Absolute lunacy. If the kids want to pray before meals, before school, or after school, that’s fine, but they shouldn’t be lead in prayer by a school employee!
I’d like to see what would happen if a Christian employee tried to lead students in prayer during a class.
Also, where are all those people who complained about the “One nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance?
America is quickly becoming a fragmented society because we let the minority opinions (with the loudest mouths) dictate our principles and our laws.
It’s unbelievable the steps we take in this country to accomodate minority viewpoints!
There was a professor on fox who used the double standard card to compare Libby to the poor muslims being imprisoned in this country for lying to the courts.
Independent Conservative above has already said all that needs to be said on this issue.
Them or Us. Wake up .
WAKE UP AMERICA You’re allowing a takeover of your country!
Wasn’t the guy with the lawsuit over the cross in the Korean Vet Memorial in San Diego? Where’s that guy?
Probably just can’t here the prayers from his porch, so it’s not an issue. . . .I’m sure it will be when the call to prayer starts blaring from loudspeakers at the mosque down the street from his house 5 times a day.
Christian prayer bad? Muslim prayer okay? Only in the mind of a leftist.
The ACLU takes away our Judeo-Christian rights, but what the San Diego schools show is that Muslims can do anything they want in public schools and universities in the name of “multiculturalism.”
They even want to have public schools be open on Christmas for Muslims (thus teachers would have to work) or at the very least make certain Muslim holidays mandatory for all students. We need to either demand tolerance from Muslims in our country or seriously limit Muslim immigration:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24989-2004Dec24?language=printer
The Muslims will push as far as they can. The hypocrisy is hip deep when Muslims demand to practice their religion in public schools in America when no such demand would be honored in any Muslim nation. If you concede to one demand, it will encourage more demands. They believe their religion should reign supreme.
This is freakin’ insane!
I find the anti-Islam sentiment here to be out of place. Regardless of one’s feelings on the religion, I think some are making a bigger deal out of this than necessary.
If an aide or teacher was leading these children in prayer, by all means terminate his/her employment. If that isn’t happening then what’s the issue? We all agree that students have the right to privately pray at school. If students want to take five minutes during lunch to pray, more power to them.
(The 15-minute breaks are also hooey no matter what the religion. Those have got to go. The prayer is Constitutionally required to be organized by the students.)
I only pray (yep, I said pray) they they never recite the 1st ammendment in school. Seems you can get arrested for that too!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_on_re_us/first_amendment_arrest
LORD have mercy!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think the hijackers of 9/11 were Christian. So, why is Christianity being exiled and removed from every aspect of our society while Islam is being welcomed with open arms?
Solution:
Allow everbody to do anything they want as far as religion is concerned. If the anti-religious zealots and the courts treated freedom of speech the way they treated freedom of religion, the left and the civil liberties absolutists would be up in arms.
But because it was usually Christians whose ox was being gored, they sanctioned this stifling of freedom. And now, it appears that as long as it’s any other faith except the Christian faith that wishes prayer privileges at public schools, such permission should be granted.
Just leave religion alone for those who wish to practice it anywhere they wish. And keep teachers and administrators out of it.
Stopping the class to have students publicly bob up and down in demonstration of their faith is accommodation but to say to others that wearing a symbol of your faith is apotheosizing, is troublesome.
The man you’re referring to, Philip Paulson, passed away in October 2006 at age 59.
And San Diego is aparently captured by the shari’a/anti-Christian creep:
(Emphasis mine).
I repeat - Christianity = Bad. Islam = Good.
All it takes to understand this is an ability to read.
EnglishQueen,
Come on now. Give the San Diego school system time to deal with this Islam thing. I’ll bet they put a stop to it. These things take time.
Really? Forgive me for being stubborn, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
As I pointed out - I believe it is CA where schools have a unit on Islam that would (if it were a unit on, say, Catholicism) have the “separation of church and state” folks’ head exploding.
So the notion that they’ll “put a stop to it” when Muslim grievance groups are hopping on the bandwagon makes me skeptical at best and pessimistic at worst.
That’s exactly how people felt about the initial attack on prayer in schools.
After a decades quest to expunge religion of any kind from public institutions, it shouldn’t be suprising that people get bent out of shape when special accomodations are made for Muslims.
People can accept the law and will abide by it even if they disagree with it, but only if it applies to everyone equally. Contrast the way people tip-toe around Islam with the relentless, resentful way they go after Christians. Its that double standard that aggravates people.
Were this a Christian class the ACLU would have already file the separation of church and state lawsuit. But because it’s Islam they will ignore it.
Not really sure why… communists don’t approve of ANY religion.
Sharia creep is happening. Should we panic? No. Fight it. Organize legal resources and fight it. Take away the 510 c 3 status of Islamic non-profit groups that are in effect lobbying and violating the established protocols for advocacy. Especially CAIR. Tie their hands with the system as they seek to tie ours with that very system.
The next attack will change public sentiment about Muslims. And the cure for this pain is, well, in the pain.
The very fact that there hasn’t been an attack on US soil since 911 has been a paradoxical curse: it put the masses on snooze mode- if not downright arrogance mode to boot ( a la Pelosi Galore and Jack Murtha and Ted Kennedy).
Submitt, convert, or die eh?
I’ll take option 4 - resist to the upmost.
It’s interesting how the ACLU and the Democrat party will attack immediately any hint of sign of accommodating Christianity in schools yet they turn a blind eye to practically building mosques in schools, airports, etc.
Could it be they side with the ROP because of their common goal of destroying Christianity?
Or are they the usual yellow spined leftists who think surrendering to dhimmi status will stop the ROP from targeting them?
Remember, our courts have already ruled that indoctrination into Muslim culture via a two week manadory course in revisionist Islamic history, prayer, and misogyny is legal. Of course Cjristians are not afforded the same opportunity. Madness.
They DO approve of one religion - worship of the state (i.e. Government). To undermine the US the Communists (otherwise known as Progressives) will use any tool, such as Islam, to destroy Western Judeo-Christian civilization. Remember this motto, “The ends justify the means.” Ergo, the Left’s irrational support of Islam as it will destroy them too.
This is an outrage.
The double standard being applied reveals the treasonous anti-American sentiment behind it.
Anerica’s leftist edu-crats have no interest in supporting any religion as such — they are militantly atheistic — but they can make common cause with the islamo-nazis to promote their faith.
Sometimes you just have to believe your own eyes.
The saying goes “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
It’s no news flash that Islam does not like Christianity - look at Lina Joy and the treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim nations.
I wouldn’t be surprised if liberals were making strange bedfellows with Muslims because they both dislike Christians.
And I just don’t get that. Christians don’t:
Blow people up
Regularly abuse/torture/murder women
Murder adulterers/gays
Mutilate young girls via circumcision
Behead ‘infidels’
Prevent women from voting
Prevent women from driving
Prevent women from learning/working
And the list could go on.
But - for some inexplicable reason - liberals hate Christians more than the Muslims who would ban all their favorite behaviors, freedoms, and rights.
Does it make sense to any of you?
Just Remember this if nothing else;
GOD is watching all of us.
He is in control of our ultimate destiny.
He will judge all of us when we stand before HIM.
Let the others sin against Him and attempt to stop Christians from standing up for what is right in God’s eyes.
Their day will come soon. Just know in your heart that you have done what you can, if it means being punished on earth, your reward will be in HEAVEN.
(I am not a preacher, but I believe God/Jesus are soon to be approaching the ends times for those on earth. IMHO.)
There certainly is a very real difference.
All other religions and belief systems don’t pray for the abolition or destruction of those other than Islam by mandate multiple times daily.
Islam has not allowed change for 1400 years, the very definition of delusion is the concept that Islam will now change because now it’s geographic location is America.
We need to admit that our political correctness isn’t allowing us confront the very serious issue that Islam is an aggressive, oppression based belief system.
It’s obivous that some of you are purposefully going over-the-top for attention or to stoke people into leaving inflammatory comments.
This is all madness. Almost every Democratic legislator in Congress comes froms a Judeo-Christian background. Please don’t act like liberals hate Christianity. That’s crazy-talk.
Guess what, I’m a liberal Christian! I support a total separation between Church and State. I don’t care if it’s Muslims or Christians, schools shouldn’t be leading children in prayer, ever.
And EnglishQueen:
1. Yes they have (and some crazies still do…abortion clinic bombings, etc.).
2. Yes they have (Inquisition, witch trials).
3. Yes they have and do.
4. Yes they do. Female circumcision is still practiced by Christians in parts of Africa.
5. Not beheading as much as burning at the stake. Because that’s so much more civilized.
6-8. I’ll grant you these. Although the institutional sexism in Catholicism still shocks me.
I don’t support Islam. I can’t support a religion that treats women and gays in this manner and still often resorts to violence to meet its goals. But let’s not pretend that Christianity doesn’t have its own set of problems. Extremism is dangerous in all forms and Christian history is just as shameful as the acts of violence being waged in the name of Allah.
Will somebody please wield their Bibles, and invoke the name of Reagan at these individuals so they will crawl back into their spiderholes where they belong???
Rusty:
Then let me clarify my position:
Christians don’t, on a regular and consistent basis, do ANY of those things with the same fervor as Muslims. And when they do - they are condemned by other Christians, and rightly so.
Christian history is just that - history. If Islam’s last terrorist attack was a few centuries ago, it wouldn’t be a problem. But it wasn’t. It was a mere 6 years ago, and many smaller ones are carried out on a daily basis.
The argument that Christianity is just as bad as Islam is a complete non-starter.
This isn’t an overreaction on the part of any of us - there is a clear, operating double standard here that prefers or allows some religions more freedom than others.
Last time I checked, the First Amendment gave EVERYONE the right to free expression of religion. It did not set up parameters as to who, where, when, why and what that expression could be.
However, recent years have shown that the ability of some (Christians) to exercise that First Amendment right is being restricted, eroded, and denied.
How can finding that to be both unconstitutional and offensive - and fighting to correc it - be an “overreaction”?
GOD’S laws trump Man’s Law.
That’s all there is to be said.
Ok…I have to jump in..come on Rusty…pleeeeeeze…don’t even try to equate the past history of christianity with today’s muslim misadventures..even a liberal like you has enough sense to see how ridiculous that is…yeah..let’s bring up the inquisition…I mean, when was that, yesterday…oh no…maybe three hundred years ago?..first of all…no main stream christian religion agrees with bombing Abortion clinics, or
any other of these hideous practices by modern muslims…..and NO you are wrong.. there are no christian Africans practicing female circumcision in the name of the Judeo-christian God (even though you wish it were so)..that’s for muslims…in your rush to attempt to seem, oh so liberal and superior to everyone (read that as politically correct)..you show your hate of U.S. morals and culture…but as usual, you liberal argument is pure sohpistry.
I’m just pointing out that Christians were guilty of many of the same things that we (rightly) condemn some Muslims for practicing today. It was a response to the tone of some comments that Islam is inherently evil. I am proud to be a member of a religion that has moved past its darker days. Perhaps someday we’ll be able to say the same about Islam.
Again, I agree that what the SD schools are doing is unquestionably unconstitutional. I just don’t feel that this story is worthy of getting riled up over Islam. These Muslims are just doing exactly what many Christians have been trying to do: have their religion endorsed in schools. It won’t work. This will be banned…unfortunately lawsuits take a lot of time.
As for female circumcision in Africa…that’s a local custom, not a religious one. Many indiginous people of sub-Saharan Africa have converted to Christianity and Islam. This barbaric custom has unfortunately survived.
FOX News Link
*Also, I apologize for using “Islam” and “Muslim” relatively interchangably. I often forget when to use which term.
this quote from the paper is very interesting
“Carol Clipper, who is the guardian of two grandchildren enrolled in the school’s Arabic program, said she believes students should be “given the freedom” to pray. Clipper is Christian, and her grandchildren are being raised in both Islam and Christianity.
“I take them to the mosque and they go to church with me,” she said. ”
the two religions are diametrically opposed. One claims to be a religion of peace, while the other definitely is one.
I guess the grandmother has drunk the Kool-Aid, but hopefully the grandchildren will be able to distinguish between the two.
Rusty
The difference between Islam and other religions is so obvious that only a liberal could miss it: other religions do not preach death for unbelievers. Not only does the Koran, in multiple instances call for the death of unbelievers, Muslims pray for the same 5 times a day.
Rusty:
I cannot believe you’re equating the past wrongs of Christians with the current and ongoing wrongs of Muslims. History is history. The Church of 1400 years ago is different than the Church of today; I doubt you can say the same for Islamic theology.
The reason to get “riled up” over Islam in schools is that the mission of Islam is clearly outlined in the Koran, Mohammed’s teachings, and the pronouncements made by imams and terrorists throughout the world on a daily basis:
They are not satisfied with freedom of religion and free religious expression. They want a worldwide caliphate, where everyone is either Muslim or subject to restrictions under Islamic law. They are justified in committing acts of terrorism and violence to further that cause - as Mohammed did (and taught) the same thing.
I don’t believe you could find ANY such pronouncements by Christians - any time a Christian in a public school (or any public place) wants to express his/her faith it has less to do with indoctrinating others to Christianity and more to do with equal protection under the First Amendment.
With regards to things such as Christmas carols or Christmas imagery in schools, it is - as you say regarding female circumcision - a “local custom”. America was founded on ideals born from Judeo-Christian values, and the presence of Christianity in the public sphere is a reflection of not only the majority faith of this nation (I believe somewhere between 70-80% of Americas identify themselves as “Christian”), it is a reflection of our historical roots and customs.
As for the inherent nature of Islam, I direct you to this post on another blog, and specifically this comment:
I think that speaks volumes and is the most coherent theological explanation of Islam I’ve run across.
Rusty, oh, and as for FGM only the Copts have retained this as a religious institution. It is a remnant of pharonic practices that was incorporated into Islam. The Koran specifically recognizes it, although it refers to a ‘nick’ which is sometimes taken to mean a clitorectomy and other times a mere symbolic slice. The current practice in Egypt is much more brutal, being a full intubalation. The Copts are moving away from the practice. Islam is actually moving towards the practice and no one is really sure why’
What we’re seeing in San Diego is multi-culti thinking taken to its inevitable conclusion: clinging to the illusion of “control” by surrendering the same.
Being the physical and moral cowards that they are, the school administrators, rather than standing firm against Mohommedan demands for special treatment, give in to them.
Once that’s done, all that’s left is the rationalizing. It begins with simple self-excusal: “He didn’t intimidate me into it; I gave it to him.”
But that justtification is unsatisfactory from a self-esteem persective, and not very persuaive to others; so it soon morphs into an act of “nobility” - e.g., “I’m giving him special treatment as a way of making up for how he’s been wronged in the past by the oppressive majority culture.”
In this way, pusillanimous school officials can surrender their authority by pretending to exercise it.
And as for the ACLU and the rest of the “Separation of (Judeo-Christian) Church and State” crowd, rather than fight the special treatment for Mohammedans, they applaud it; for they want nothing more than to subvert what they see as our “unjust” society in order to reshape it more to their liking.
Winston Churchill had their ilk pegged a long time ago: “These very high intellectual persons who wake up every morning…see what they can find to demolish, to undermine, or cast away.”
Others here have already noted what needs to be done when the Mohammedans start demanding superior treatment: stand firm in the face of the demands. To do otherwise is nothing more than appeasement masquerading as high-mindedness, cowardice pretending to be conviction.
Well put Englishqueen . We are looking at a modern day threat . Why would anyone bring up ancient history to defend the actions of Isalm today ? The nation of Islam must be crushed and I hope their bleeding-heart liberal defenders are with them when it happens.
I fear that we have allowed our once great country to become the Balkans of America.
How will we ever peacefully divest ourselves of the radical influences that have invaded us. They wanting to hold tightly to their own culture and religious laws that demand our very destruction.
I fear not for my own fate, I have lived to enjoy the sacrifices my ancestors. But our descendants, what are we leaving them?
A country so weak in princple that we can not even speak of destroying them in the nest where they are bred.
We now have to give the throat slicers legal status as if they are somehow better than the average American.
I feel our goverment in a bipartisan decision has agreed to our destruction.
And we have the goverment that we deserve, what folly have we allowed?
The inquisition, the crusades of the christians all happened prior to the christian reformation. islam has not had its reformation. as a matter of fact, as those imams that begin to reach towards reformation of the religion get beheaded, it is a wonder if this religion will ever attain that much needed reformation.
The female circumcision is NOT a christian but a tribal cultural act that has been practiced in these African tribes. And, this is not a widely practiced religious exercise in the christian relgion, but is part of the Islamic practice.
So, when one rises up to add up the ‘christian’ wrongs, let’s remember just what side of history these occured: prior to the christian reformation.
Let’s call for the Islamic Reformation. Who wants to start that cry?..
PC and chamberpot immigration are self-destructive.
Muslims go home!
Total and complete insanity. Don’t they see that we are contributing to our own destruction? I, for one, and even if I am the only one, refuse to submit. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Paging ACLU, you’re wanted on the white phone.
Forget any help from the ACLU. This group was born and raised in the US communist party, back in the 30s(?). Their whole mission is one against the principles of this country and will do whatever they can to disrupt it. Unfortunately some new naive, gullible lawyers get involved. They won’t get involved with the Islam/school situation for the simple reason that it agrees with their agenda. Now if I were a member, I would certainly encourage such disruption; certainly not fight it. Back in my early 20s, I used to be a “wide eyed” radical. Fortunately, I grew up and discovered my brain. Follow their history; always one of disruption.
The very fact that there hasn’t been an attack on US soil since 911
I think you mean “hasn’t been an attack on US soil since 9/11 that the media admitted was committed by Muslims (maybe)” There was the jihadi who ran over the UNC kids with his SUV, the jihadi in San Francisco who ran over people with his SUV on the way to a synagogue, the jihadi in Seattle who shot six people in a Jewish community center, and a whole bunch of plots foiled before anyone could be injured or killed.
Not with my tax dollars! If Carver School allows them time off to pray, then they either do it for the other NON Muslim students who are Christians or they don’t do it at all. After all, I don’t see Islam as the religion of peace.
Were that the case, we would not have terrorism, now would we?
And now does the district know that ‘indoctrination’ didn’t take place?
It’s my money too.
The ACLUs silence on this case is just another instance of proof that the ACLU isn’t pro seperation of church and state, but anti Christian.
Anyone who regularly listens to radio talk-show host Michael Savage knows that he calls for the prosecution and imprisonment of the ACLU leadership under RICO statutes for their anti-American and anti-Christian activities. In another place, we see the ACLU suing a Louisiana City for DARING(!!!) to have a painting of Jesus Christ in a courthouse, but no ACLU action regarding this Islamicization of Carver Elementary School in Oak Park.
This fourth of july, we all need to listen to Stuck Mojo reminding us that we are Americans.
I can see us all now in a few years - speaking Spanish (it will be the offical language by then) and living under Sharia law.
Much has been written above to dismiss the empty rhetoric that ‘this is no big deal’. Thank GOD ( the ONE REAL ONE) that more dont think like that, we’re fighting for our very free existence as it is now.
i.e. in the UK
Islam wants us to change history, for them.
They want sharia law, for them. They kill who doesn’t think like them.
They can LIE with the approval of allah if it is for the good of allah/islam.
Read the koranic death book.
At least read the first few chapters of Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book , Infidel, you will understand why they mutilate womens bodies (in the name of allah) and why muslims are incapable of even thinking about equality. There is NOTHING equal in their lives, not even muslims from across town or different tribes.
Allah taught hate and submission and misogyny and to conquer the world by any means. Men can marry any 6 year old girl but wait ’til they’re 9 to consummate the marriage and you can marry as many as you can afford.
Jesus Christ taught there are two main requirements for mankind-Two laws.
First- Love God ( the real One) with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind.
And second LOVE EACH OTHER.
Love God, and Love everyone.
Just look at the first two words of the Lords Prayer:
OUR FATHER. kinda says it all.
What do YOU want in the schools?
Sounds to me like Christian students at Carver need to start breaking out their Bibles, rosaries, etc. en masse during the prayer break. Be interesting to see how the school board, ACLU, and muslim students react.
Either 2 things Michelle: declare America a Christian nation by law or maintain a rugged separation with no religious preference with I am for…..
If you want to see the ACLU weigh in on this one all you have to do is suggest that the prayer sessions be recorded.
JLP
Here is the ACLU’s formal response to the situation.
And here is a list of cases where the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians.