House waves the White Flag: April Fool’s pullout date
By a vote of 223-201, the House of Representatives passed a surrender timetable that culminates in an April 1, 2008 withdrawal. How appropriate. It’ll be vetoed, but don’t think our enemies aren’t hearing the defeatist message from the House loud and clear.
AP:
The Iraqi government is achieving only spotty military and political progress, the Bush administration conceded Thursday in an assessment that war critics quickly seized on as confirmation of their dire warnings. Within hours, the House voted to withdraw U.S. troops by spring.
The House measure passed 223-201 in the Democratic-controlled chamber despite a veto threat from President Bush, who has ruled out any change in war policy before September…
…A few hours after Bush’s remarks, Democratic leaders engineered passage of legislation requiring the withdrawal of U.S. combat troops to begin within 120 days, and to be completed by April 1, 2008. The measure envisions a limited residual force to train Iraqis, protect U.S. assets and fight al-Qaida and other terrorists.
The vote generally followed party lines: 219 Democrats and four Republicans in favor, and 191 Republicans and 10 Democrats opposed.
“The report makes clear that not even the White House can conclude there has been significant progress,” said Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.
To Bush and others who seek more time for the administration’s policy to work, she said, “We have already waited too long.”
Republicans sided with Bush — at least for now. The bill “undermines Gen. Petraeus, undermines the mission he has to make America and Iraq safe,” said the House GOP leader, Rep. John Boehner of Ohio. “What we have here is not leadership, it’s negligence.”
The Republicans who voted for the measure:
Duncan
Emerson
Gilchrest
Jones (NC)
***
House Republican Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.) released the following statement this evening after 10 Democrats joined 191 Republicans in voting against the Democratic leadership’s latest attempt to undermine our troops in the field, and wrest operational control from our commanders on the ground.
“Democrats in the House once again this evening put themselves on record in support of a strategy of surrender in Iraq – this time passing a bill that satisfies their temporary political needs, but fails to consider the needs of our troops and commanders in the field.
“Far from providing a ‘new way forward’ in Iraq, this bill offers not a single policy recommendation or point of strategy to keep our troops safe and secure, and put them in a position to be successful. The only thing it offers is a symbolic gesture of defeat paired with the necessary means of delivering it.
“The conditions on the ground in Iraq right now need to improve – a fact understood well by this Congress, the American people, and the president himself. But instead of coming together with a common purpose to craft a long-term strategy for success – a strategy that’s informed by facts on the ground and driven by a shared commitment to win – the majority continues to play politics at the expense of those who put themselves in harm’s way in service of our nation.
“In the same afternoon, Democrats also rejected a measure that would have closed the terrorist surveillance loophole in the FISA process – rounding out a day in which our mission in Iraq was dealt a further blow, and our ability to keep Americans safe at home was diminished right on the floor of the U.S. House.”
***
Ed Morrissey has Rep. John Shadegg’s speech blasting the House White Flag bill.
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Hugh Fitzgerald:
“The United States has no stake in bringing together Sunni and Shi’a. The Bush Administration, unable to recognize its mistakes about Islam and about Iraq, appears determined to continue to invest more and more, of money and material and men’s lives — to pursue a wrong course. In this respect it reminds one of the stubborn, crazed policy pursued during the hideous trench warfare of World War I, for no reasons that made sense, but because, once the thing started, no one could figure out how to stop it.
The generals who have, for the right reasons (not the zinni-ish line of appeasement, but because the war aims in Iraq make no real sense, the “mission” cannot be articulated by Bush because even to try to do so would show up how misguided the whole thing is) opposed the war should speak up. And those who are with tunnel vision thinking only of the “job we have to do” right here in Baghdad are not serving the country well.
As for those who say things like “on average, insurgencies last about ten years,” to them one can only reply: what would you think of someone who self-assuredly proclaimed that “on average, American wars last an average of 2.1 years” or “on average, wars around the world sinc 1500 have lasted about 13.16 years” or “on average, civil wars last about 3.7 years.”
You would see right away how vacuous and jejune are such remarks. But for some reason, those “counterinsurgency experts” who make such statements, and then as well think they are little-lawrence-of-arabias with their knowledge of the “Sunni tribes” and their ability to really get to know those sheikhs because they are aware of how to sit, and which hand to use, and what formula to utter, and how to listen patiently as the local Arab, who knows exactly how to manipulate the American army officer who is under the impression that it is he, the American, who is doing the manipulating, presents his wish-list for still more money, still more of those nice advanced American weapons and, oh yes, some more raids by American soldiers on that particular sheikh’s particular enemies, whether or not they belong to Al Qaeda, which is not, pace Patraeus and Bush, the only problem for there are a dozen different, mutually hostile, constantly shifting in their allegiances groups in Iraq, but all of them, in the end, consist of Muslims, and therefore none of them, in end, can conceivably be won over, not their hearts, and not their minds, to be real as opposed to temporary and feigned, friends of American Infidels.”
Not naive. I just still have hope.
“I still believe in spite of everything that people are really good at heart.” -Anne Frank
Despite the evil in the world, I still believe that we can defend our country against evil. Evil does not rest in simply one religion. That is where I agree with the president that this is NOT a war of religions. While we must battle those who wronged us on 9/11, I feel strongly that we needed to take care of Bin Laden first. It is my opinion that we must be wise about how we use our resources. I will unite with anyone who shares my belief in attacking those who attacked our homeland… Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, whatever.
Martin Luther King said “We must learn to live together as brothers, or perish together as fools.”
Edit for Clarification: I will unite with anyone: Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, etc. in devoting whatever is necessary to attack those who attacked our homeland.
There are three methods to gaining wisdom. The first is reflection, which is the highest. The second is imitation, which is the easiest. The third is experience, which is the bitterest. – Confucius
Martin Luther King said “We must learn to live together as brothers, or perish together as fools.”
Hatred may be engendered by good deeds as well as bad ones. – Niccolo Machiavelli
Hence it happened that all the armed prophets conquered, all the unarmed perished. – Niccolo Machiavelli
And many writers have imagined for themselves republics and principalities that have never been seen or known to exist in reality; for there is such a gap between how one lives and how one ought to live that anyone who abandons what is done for what ought to be done learns his ruin rather than his preservation: for a man who wishes to profess goodness at all times will come to ruin among so many who are not good. – Niccolo Machiavelli
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self evident.
-Schopenhauer
If it looks good,
And it taste good,
And it feels good,
There has got to be something wrong some where,
So be careful.
- Murphy
You can’t get there from here – NYC cab driver
There is an excellent graphic from Charles Joseph Minard on this, that shows the mass of the French army in it’s advance on Russia, v. the recorded ambient temperature. He lost as many of his army due to the awful conditions as he did because of battle.
Napoleon entered with 422,000; engaged and left Moscow with 100,000; and left with 10,000. Temperatures on his retreat ranged from 0 to -36 (Fahrenheit).
Suffice it to say to to say that was the first time that Napoleon lost due to ineffective choice in his orders of battle. Of course, his second was against Wellington at Waterloo
The House has to stand up to the opinions of the majority of Americans and do the right thing here. This is no time for democracy.
You quote the Koran, and you call for disengaging? Can I ask you what you think will happen when we leave Iraq in April?
I’ve already outlined my vision, which I’ll be more than happy to pull forward for you.
Just for the record, “the people” want out of Iraq because we have never stated what our goals are, or why this battle was truly entered into.
The MSM continues to preach WMD (wrong), oil prices (wrong), and yellowcake (wrong). They never look at large or long term strategy, like:
1) a buffer between Iran (gaining/has nukes) and Israel (has nukes)
2) stomping on the carotid of corruption that is the UN (oil-for-food was really oil-for-profit, with the help of Kofi’s son and Mark Rich)
3) the realization that (dare I say it) the Muslim world has begun the new Crusades, except this time, it not about Christian’s alone…IT’S EVERYBODY WHO IS NOT MUSLIM, AND EVEN A FEW THAT ARE!!!
and finally
4) Iraq is another leveraging position against China, whom we aren’t at war with, or even at strained relations, but (Hint, hint
) they are not our friends or allies either.
If the “enemy of my enemy is my friend”, does that mean that the Democrats and al Qaeda are friends since they are both enemies of our armed forces? I mean, they both want the same thing…American defeat in Iraq.
This was to be expected. I am not shocked at all, but I do love the date they picked. Very apropos!
Here’s a little song I wrote. You might want to sing it note for note… I wrote this for my son yesterday and I got to IM with him (he is in Baghdad). He loved it so this is for our guys who are busting their backs while Congress waves the flag of defeat:
Should I Stay Or Should I Go?
Original Song by the Clash
New lyrics by me for my soldier
Congress you’ve got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that things are fine
I’ll be here to end this jihad time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
It’s always cut and run
You know that we are not done
One day is stay, next day is back
So if you do not want my flack
Well come on and let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I stay there will be trouble
An’ if I go it will be double
So come on and let me know!
This indecision’s bugging me
(do ya stand behind us or not)
Why don’t you want our Victory?
(get off your defeatist running gig)
Exactly who’m I’m supposed to be
(I know what you are all about)
Don’t know which clothes even fit me?
(Civilian or military?)
Come on and let me know
(quick jerking me around)
Should I cool it or should I blow?
(blow up the jihad enemies?)
Split!
(if you say you think we can win we
will have a better chance)
Should I stay or should I go now?
(You are making us all suffer)
Should I stay or should I go now?
(you are making us all suffer)
If I stay there will be trouble
(yes I know this is a bad place to live)
And if I go it will be double
(home will be too if we leave)
So you gotta let me know
(make up your minds and take a stand)
Should I cool it or should I go?
(say loud you’re against the enemy)
(repeat)
Basic civics lesson for MM: In our system of government BOTH houses have to pass a bill for it to be sent to the President to sign. So your statement: “It will be vetoed” makes no sense. It won’t go to the President, unless and until it passes the Senate.
Oh, yeah, I forgot MM is not big on facts. For example, she always manages to forget that immigrant communities with illegals have lower crime rates than those without.
Well Al Queda through their Taliban wing beat the Soviet Union and now they have beaten the United States. The actions of our congress are certainly helping recruiting….for the Islamic fascists.
Even though it will be get vetoed the message is sent and I have doubt will be in Zawahiri propaganda film coming to a theater near you soon. Well as long as theaters are still allowed.
Yes the war is against Islam not terrorism . Islam has declared their quest for world domination. If you are naive enough to believe otherwise you have the right to be wrong .
We should not withdrawal but we should not be in the middle of a civil war . Although a democracy there would be ideal for us this is their country .We cannot police the world.
Keep a large force there but move to the borders , create a safe zone for our troops , and attack our enemies where ever we find them . That includes northern Pakistan.
What are those “facts” based on. Let me guess…a New York Times “scientific” poll. Puhhhhleeeze!
Interesting how nobody points out the mideast used to be dominated by Christians…
DaleC:
Are we going to go another round with this “blame Islam first” idea when it comes to terrorism?
We are not fighting the one billion adherents of Islam. If we are, we’ve already lost and you should probably start growing a beard and buy your wife a burqa. And if we are indeed fighting Islam and not terrorism, what in God’s name are we doing in Iraq? The Iraqis are hell bent on the prospect of killing each other. Why should we try and stop that? They’re moooslims, aren’t they? Why not arm both sides and let them have at each other. In your universe, that would be just peachy.
And what about the 2.5 million Moooslims in this country? When are we going to kill them? I suggest gas chambers – they’ve proven effective in the past.
You want a war with Islam, we’re going to lose – and drag the rest of us to defeat with you.
The war is against the fundamental precepts of Islam. When this is finally admitted and spoken as policy by the US, it will be testament that the US understands the ideology which drives our Muslim enemy. Your a and b points are as tangential as they are crippling.
a. Shut down Islam wholesale in the US. The mosques and the Imams and the al-Husainy’s. Make the American Muslims who back the US vote with their bare feet. They may not be violent jihadis, but will they be voting for the next Keith Ellison? Will they be taking seats on school boards and city councils, and introducing legalities that bring on Sharia law? This is what the “moderates” are doing right now. Islam is at WAR with the US. What part of that do you not see? How is it relevant to imply that we must not imply that we are at war with Islam? If a snake is biting you, what relevance is there in saying “Not all snakes are biting me.” or “Snakes aren’t the only critter that bites.”
Come on.
Dude, Islam vs. Christianity is happening. Islamic laws and ideology is killing Christians in Darfur, Thailand, Iraq…..is this the same as saying that every single Moslem on the planet is killing Christians? Nope. But the “silent majority” of Muslims are condoning the violence with their silence. And the religious ideology of Islam rolls on.
It needs to be put under the public microscope. Put up or shut up. The religion is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. Catholicism did the same thing under the Roman Empire when it was adopted as an official religion of the state.
At what point do the American Muslims decide and commit to disavowing Islamic fundamentalism and fight against sharia creep out of loyalty to the US way of life? At what point do American Muslims INTERRUPT what is happening in our prison systems? At what point do American Muslims fight against the jihadi recruitment of American born Muslim males? At what point do identify publically what it means to support the US no matter what?
Christianity is not a religion.
Stop and consider what the obvious answer is to that statement. We are at war with Islam just like the Muslims are at war with Islam. The radical, blood thirsty, their way or no way brand of Islam. Too try and paint the struggles as Iraqi’s fighting Iraqi’s is to live in a simplistic world. You have Shiite’s waging a war as Iran’s proxies and you have Sunni’s waging war on behalf of their puppet masters from Syria and Saudi Arabia. Al Queda is radical form of the Sunni Muslim sect known as Wahabbi. They have franchises in Egypt known as the Muslim Brotherhood.
There is every bit as much a war within the Islamic world among themselves but the more we show those in Iraq and Afghanistan the face of America, not the Hollywood stereotype, but the honest to goodness Americans wearing the uniform of this country face, the closer we get to making these people reealize that the big bad boogey man that they have been taught is America dissolves. Go read some of the blogs coming out of Iraq where the average citizen openly admits they do not fear the Americans, rather they embrace them. The men and women wearing the uniform have done more to promote the image and reality of Americans being a caring people in 5 years then all of the diplomats, statesmen, and state department stuffed shirts have done in 40 years. In fact they are helping to reverse all those diplomatic disasters of the past. They can’t do it overnight but by god if you give them more time they will accomplish it.
We are now at the point where our Armed Forces as acting as ambassadors and correcting a long history of missteps conducted by politicians who always seem to think they know more then us.
I think what the politicians are afraid of is the military will not only succeed but also in doing so point out the failures of previous politicians of all stripes.
Finally defeat for us means only one thing and if you want to know what that is I suggest you use Somalia, Thailand, Iran, or the previous Afghanistan as case studies. And yes the stakes are this high. At what point do you quit running?
blacktygrrrr said: “Patience is a virtue, and apparently the democrats in congress simply have none.”
I fear it’s far worse. I believe that many Dems desire a negative outcome in Iraq and are perfectly willing to be the cause of it when they perceive such behavior as not politically threatening. And regardless of the destructive consequences of their efforts, the drones who voted them into office and the fawning media will not hold them accountable. That is the true lesson of Vietnam.
Whatever happened to men and women of HONOR? This type of treason wouldn’t have been allowed during WWII. Selling out your country for political gain is shameful and criminal.
MikeyB, FeralCat and the DarkKnight are again lecturing us on why we’re all wrong. How do you three make it through the day with all that superior knowledge in your noggins? We’re so pleased that you can post here (which we’re not allowed to do on your brand of websites) and tell us all what we’re doing wrong. So glad you’re hear to “train” us.
Fatah, you know that peaceful political wing in the Palestinian terrorist network, are giving their friends in Lebanon fits. Yes the same Fatah that the western world prefers abouve Hamas, but just barely. At least 100 dead from the Lebanese army and Fatah firing rockets willy nilly everywhere, but where is the press coverage of this?
Nothing to see, move along, these aren’t the
terrorists,militants, refugees you are looking for.Wow terrig, don’t hold back. First off, let me say I don’t have a “brand of website” so back off from that statement. For the record, I have supported Sen. Vitter being given a second chance (unless a crime has been committed, then it is a different story). I sided with those who still think the job must be finished in Afghanistan, regardless of the resources it takes. I don’t favor banning all guns, I have serious reservations about the assult weapons ban, as well as being careful to make sure that those who do have guns are not “close to the edge” to try and lower the probability of them “snapping” and doing harm to others. This would include mental history checks during background checks. I have said from the beginning that I try to be an independent thinker to keep my mind open to all opinions. I wish more people would do the same.
I haven’t told “all” people on this site that they are wrong and you’d be wrong for assuming so. I wondered, and was surprised to find, the high percentage of those who still support this war believe that it is War of Religions and not simply a War on Terror (as if they were synonymous). I also had a very good discussion with Miss Ladybug about the correlation (or lack thereof) between “Supporting the Troops” and “Supporting the War.” I also expressed in my exchange with FeralCat about where my beliefs are rooted in the Bible concerning different issues. I am not telling everyone that they are wrong. Simply stating my position. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I have not called anybody any out of their names, simply seeking the reasons why they believe what they believe. I hope you share this committment.
What??? Christianity is the largest religion in the world and is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.
What will the pull-out stratigists do,when al-Qeada comes here to wage their war.
The U.S.did not sit and wait for Japan to hit here.Eight months after Pearl Harbor,the Marines hit Guadel Canal.It took three years of relentles assaults on the enemy.Of course,being F.D.R.was a democRAT,the news media was behind him.
As I already stated Rick Moran . You have the right to be wrong .
DaleC, you totally didn’t even respond to RickMorans point about blaming all 1 billion muslims…
Bill DeFelice~
FDR being a Dem had nothing to do with it. It was a very different time then. The nation, and the media, were united in the fight against fascism.
“Saddam’s imaginary WMD; and the expected grateful reception by the Iraqi people of an American invasion and occupation, leading to a transformed Iraq which would serve as a Shining City on the Hill to act as an inspiration to the other Arab countries. ”
Your first few words are correct Saddam did have imaginary WMD’s and he had all of his General’s believing he had them and so he ended up the fool (hung) in the end for his game. The Iraqi people after the initial takedown (3 weeks, brilliant strategy) did see us as liberators, I know you all watched Saddam’s statue coming down and the release of decades of torture on those people and they loved us. We then come to all of those decades of hate and mistrust and we thought that nation building was the way and by the way not really a bad thought. I suggest that after 4 years of continuous violence that the Iraqi’s are ready to end it and has been shown by them working with us. The Senate voted unanimously to send Petraus and he deserves the right to have until September to show what is being done, to not allow him to would be treasonous due to the vote to send him.
No, “Christianity” is not a religion. Catholicism is a religion. Methodist is a religion. Lutheran is a religion. Pentacostal is a religion. Southern Baptist is a religion.
Great first my church deserted me, Episcopal, and now I find out I don’t even have a religion. I used to classify myself as a Christian without a church now I don’t know what I am.
Move over Allah Pundit I guess I am an atheist now. *sigh*
These are branches of the religion. Similar to other religions that have varying degrees of beliefs. Methodist are Christian. Catholics are considered Christians, etc.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/
Dark Knight . I do not like repeating myself so refer to my previous comments if you have any further questions .
As for the 2.5 million muslims in this country I would be happy to see them go to live with Rick and his wife.
Point taken. It’s the price you pay for having 131 comments to read through.
Its a free country, you can believe what you like.
Just A Grunt~
Sorry I overlooked Episcopalians. I’m sure I overlooked others, too (Southern Baptists aren’t the only Baptists out there, for example).
DarkKnight~
I’m Catholic. In a previous life as a tech support/software trainer, I found myself in the campus bookstore of a fundamentalist Baptist university. According to them, I’m not a Christian. Neither are many other Christian religions, according to them. So, I’ll stand by my statement that “Christianity” isn’t a religion.
If we are really at war with Islam as a whole, why do we have muslim allies? Musharraf, he’s a muslim. All of the Gulf Emirates are muslims and on our side. Kuwait is muslim and the biggest logistical base, along with the forward headquarters for the U.S. Navy’s 5th Fleet across the Gulf in Bahrain, also muslim.
What about the Iraq Security Forces fighting side by side with Americans against muslim extremists?
I would submit that Islam is at war with itself, and we are helping one side against the other. There are plenty of muslims who don’t want Iranian mullahs or Al Queda setting the agenda for them. These are the people we must empower to win the internal struggle, for our future and theirs.
If we can demonstrate that the extremist narrative is destructive to average people in these areas, such as the Anbar Awakening, there is hope for success.
What if Iraq does turn out to be an ally in the GWOT in a few years, meaning they are fighting their own battles inside Iraq, and helping us outside Iraq? This could happen, if the Democrat Congress doesn’t pull the rug out from under Gen. Petraeus and our troops prematurely.
Besides all that, the threat that’s emerging from Iran will be more effectively dealt with having the U.S. Military in force on three sides, pressuring the mullahs. The Iraqis could be of immense help against Iran in the near future. That near future may be nearer than anyone wants to admit.
This is about a much bigger picture than just Iraq stay or go. The implications spread much wider in the region, and eventually to our own shores .
Once again the dim lite of the democrapic party shines bright thru the political fog. F.D.R. and “pass the buck Truman” both didn’t have what it takes to fight head on. The result of their inaction or wrong action…Roosevelt and Russia:East Germany, 40 plus yrs to straighten that out.
Truman, and General MacArthur in Korea: now we have the communist North Koreans nipping at out heals and why(rhetorical)?
DaleC said:
Yes the war is against Islam not terrorism.”
Yes, just as WWII was against Germany and Japan and not against blitzkriegorism nor against divebomberism.
terrig said:
MikeyB, FeralCat and the DarkKnight are again lecturing us on why we’re all wrong. How do you three make it through the day with all that superior knowledge in your noggins? We’re so pleased that you can post here (which we’re not allowed to do on your brand of websites) and tell us all what we’re doing wrong. So glad you’re hear to “train” us.
It’s a tough job, but someone has to accept the burden.
DarkNight,FeralCat, and MikeB:
I’m sorry but you only speak for yourselves. I don’t really care if you “claim” to have served in the military or not – please don’t use the justification of “I was in a war I know what it’s about” so this war stinks as an argument.
I’m a military spouse. I feel that MikeB is pathetically transparent an anti-military sympathizer as ever existed. As for you, feralcat, and you Darkknight, you’re just the same – though trying to paint yourself in some RINO void.
Leaving Iraq is defeat – or do you want to correct me? Or do you want to, in your “you’re wrong” zeal, call me a “Bush bot?” I wish people that don’t agree with others would own up to who they really are, Dem or Republican, or Independent or even Socialist. I don’t really care. Society is still defined by how we see ourselves – political affiliations are one of those definitions.
In my heart, I will never buy the sentiment of “I support the troops not the war” garbage. It’s crap. That’s it. Americans have all the patience of 3 year old children I think. The only thing that really mobilized people beyond the Iraq War, was ironically, illegal invasion (which I don’t support).
Yeah, I have issues with Pres. Bush. He’s an illegal appologist who wants to garner their favor for the Republican Party. The Iraq War has been mismanaged as well. No doubt about it. Even the Air Force can’t fiscally manage their procurement dollars and would rather axe 40,000 people than admit that they need actual people with accounting expertise than “training.”
If there is one message in this post that I want to get out there to folks like Darkknight, feralcat, and MikeB, it’s this: stop lecturing me and others about what it means to be an American. To be an American, I think one should have at least an 80% score on the Citizenship Test all prospective citizens take. No one knows anymore(not even you three)how America got to where she is today. You can quote philosophical garbage by your favorite philosophers but this debate will always boil down to one thing: what will it take to make our country safe and how much needs to be sacrificed in order to do it? I think, feralcat, you do people on this board a huge injustice when you decide to abuse the example of Audie Murphy and say what he would have done (where is your history degree?). Stop speaking for people who died for this country.
I would like the three of you to put yourselves in the shoes of someone like me. Patriotism is an easy thing to say you practice but harder to achieve on a daily business when the limelight’s gone and ordinary life returns. Military families (like mine and terrig’s) put up with a lot. Moves every three years, destruction of property, blatant disrespect from the community you live in, job discrimination because you’re seen as a “transient” rather than the spouse of someone fighting for this country’s freedom.
I feel many on this board (like terrig) understand where I’m coming from. I, however, don’t get that from the likes of Darkknight, feralcat, and MikeB.
Edit: business = basis
Christianity is the fabric of denominations who accept Jesus Christ’s teachings. Christian is the moniker given to the direct followers of Jesus of Nazareth back in the day. “of Christ”.
The church, and therefore the religion, founded by Christ, is- and remains- the Catholic Church. Catholicism is a religion based on the seven sacraments, with the Eucharist being the centerpiece ritual upon which all teachings of the Catholic religion cohere.
The aggregate of Protestant denominations are Christian religions….but it doesn’t hold that “Christianity” is A religion. Christianity holds no central doctrine common to Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, et al. These religions differ in KIND enough to be separate faiths. They accept the existence of Jesus Christ as the Savior and Son of a Triune God. From there practice, dogma, and participation, clergy and social organization differ enough to render the term “Christianity” meaningless when referring to “religion”. They are Christian religions, meanign they are Christ-centered. But when one says Christianity is a religion, there is no THERE there. No center. No hierarchy. No nada.
The Crusaders were Christians in that they accepted Christ. But they practiced different religions than say the Coptics, or the Greek Orthodox. Those are religious doctrines in their own right. Christian merely differentiates between those who follow Yahweh (but who disavow Jesus as being the Son of God), Allah, or Christ Himself.
For one to say, I practice Christianity…but do not follow the ways of Christ (the seven sacraments) are practicing an intellectual abstraction which distorts the religious doctrine of Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism etc.
It makes sense to say: I am a Christian who practices Catholicism, or Lutheranism etc.
For those who have trouble stomaching the statement that America is at war with Islam, look at it this way.
Until the basis for terrorism, strict adherence to the primary religious teachings of Islam (Quran and Shura)and the underlying “civil” code for its social practices and conventions(sharia)are banished from social participation in any form, and the religion of Islam *reformed* to bring it out of the 8th century, until Islam as an organizing principle for terrorists is defeated and discredited as a religion, there will be no peace with these rats.
Islam was *founded* based on warfare and martial conquest. Its basic code is still practiced today for that purpose. True, Catholics and Protestants, distorted Christ’s Church to become royalist conquerors. But the DNA of the Catholic religion and the Protestant religions is not “Kill the non-believer.”
The Catholic Popes may have ruled like Kings, not spiritual descendants of the Son of God, the Word Made Flesh. Islam has not been corrupted. The rules are clearly spelled out. And those who do not adhere strictly (Musharraff) as heads of state are on tenuous grounds with followers of the purist mullahs.
And as for the apostates who do not follow the teachings, but who say maybe pray more than once a day, what relevance do they have to what is happening? They are indifferent to the stakes of this war. But are they indifferent to what is waiting for them if we lose? Why would they care if Islam was defeated militarily by mass killing and death (in Syria, Libya, Iran, large portions of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, and Indonesia)to the point that surviving Moslems inherited the religious doctrine and reformed its social practice (no more honor killings, torture, clitorectomies, burkahs, etc etc…)Sure, they would be bummed if they were living in a nuked country during the world war that is coming. But, politically how and why are they relevant?
BTW, the largest organized religion in the world is Catholicism in terms of the numbers of practicing and the amount of real estate it owns worldwide.
Look it up.
bear1909~
You did a much better job than I did in explaining “Christianity is not a religion”. Thanks!
Miss Ladybug- You are very welcome. Your efficiency in explaining the complexities of an age old argument are to be admired as well.
bear1909~
When I was in college, one of the girls who lived on my floor in the dorm was from a NY Italian-American Catholic family. She started going to the Baptist Student Union. She explained to me that, according to Baptists, Catholics weren’t Christians (didn’t understand the rational for that statement).
Later, at that fundamentalist Baptist university, while all the staff were “at chapel”, my boss and I were wandering about the store (since we had no one to train…) taking a look at their merchandise. They had little booklets (Chick tracts??) about different religions, detailing what was wrong with each of them. Needless to say, I didn’t feel the need to let them know I was Catholic. They were customers, and they were already prosyletizing enough, already, showing off their dark and depressing chapel and waiting us to see their little promo video they like to show to prospective students.
Miss LadyBug: My sister recently divorced her Baptist husband and returned to the Catholic faith. She felt as if somebody had taken the garbage bag off of her head!
Anyways….DarkKnight’s web reference says:
“Christianity is the world’s biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide.
It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago.”
“Biggest religion”? I’m no intellectual snob, but using the word “biggest” to describe the demographics of religious believers of a myriad of different religious denominations? The source is immediately suspect as to its 1) relevance and 2)Protestant denominations have been organizing themselves into Christian enclaves for centuries to offset the stigma of having been split off from the Catholic Church, the only Church to organize a religious base worldwide, directly from the first appointed Pope by Christ Himself…..that is a lot of intergenerational shame to carry around all these years; thus, all of these mass rallies and stadium glutting evangelistic gatherings; and let’s not forget the mass success of multilevel marketing.
All because one can get a bigger collection basket going if you blur the lines of congregations and say “We are all Christians”. Maybe so….but snake healing and rapture and Jerry Falwell have NUTTIN to do with Christ’s teachings and consecration of Life.
Now…to bring it back to being at war with Islam- it is the snake biting my face and I must end it. Let the religion of Islam be splintered into a million branches where each branch lances the boil of violence that is driving the world into Hell.
This is Bear1909 from Berkeley California. OUT!
emjem24, I am praying for you and your family.
Many of your accusations are just that, accusations.
Never once have I lectured anyone here on what an American should or should not be. We are all Americans, no matter our political beliefs. This is true whether it is immigration, race, War, economics… That is what makes this country so great.
I quoted Anne Frank, MLK and the Bible because I believe that we can still stand united no matter our race, class or ethnicity. This happened after 9/11 so I still believe it can be done. I believe in hope. Its not philosophy. It’s a spirit.
Never once have I called anyone out of their names such as a “Bush Bot” or a “Zealot” or any other name. I will not start that tonight as a result of you stating your opinion that you do not want the U.S. to leave Iraq.
Never once have I tried to speak for military families. The ONLY people who know what its like to be in a military family is… a military family. I don’t understand why you feel that somehow everyone else on this site understands where you are coming from (they can’t all be from military families) and I don’t. The truth is that an overwhelmingly large amount of people both on this site and across the country will never be able to fully understand the sacrifice military families make in times of war (and peace for that matter). You, your husband and your children have my utmost admiration and respect.
Perhaps we both can agree that more of the American people need to take the sacrifice the military families are making more seriously and do what they can to support them both when their loved ones are away and when they come back?
Never once have I painted myself in a “RINO void.” I reject that assertion. I have said from the get-go that more people in our country need to have a more open mind to the thoughts and opinions of others. This is what democracy is all about, right? But it sure is difficult to do that when people accuse you of being an “anti-military sympathizer” just because you object to the original evidence or the present direction of the Iraq War.
Truth be told, the American public was overwhelmingly behind the military and behind the War in Iraq when it first started. As time has gone on, support the War was waned, but support for our troops remains. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this point becaus I do believe that people can support the troops and not the War in Iraq. For you (or anyone) to call me (or anyone else) an “anti-military sympathizer,” simply because of our observations of the way the War in Iraq has gone, is entirely unjustified.
Let me conclude by saying this:
I pray everyday for my close friends who are overseas right now that God will protect them. They aren’t family, but I have known these people for years. I take my position on the War on Terrorism and the War in Iraq very seriously with much thought and introspection.