House waves the White Flag: April Fool’s pullout date
By a vote of 223-201, the House of Representatives passed a surrender timetable that culminates in an April 1, 2008 withdrawal. How appropriate. It’ll be vetoed, but don’t think our enemies aren’t hearing the defeatist message from the House loud and clear.
AP:
The Iraqi government is achieving only spotty military and political progress, the Bush administration conceded Thursday in an assessment that war critics quickly seized on as confirmation of their dire warnings. Within hours, the House voted to withdraw U.S. troops by spring.
The House measure passed 223-201 in the Democratic-controlled chamber despite a veto threat from President Bush, who has ruled out any change in war policy before September…
…A few hours after Bush’s remarks, Democratic leaders engineered passage of legislation requiring the withdrawal of U.S. combat troops to begin within 120 days, and to be completed by April 1, 2008. The measure envisions a limited residual force to train Iraqis, protect U.S. assets and fight al-Qaida and other terrorists.
The vote generally followed party lines: 219 Democrats and four Republicans in favor, and 191 Republicans and 10 Democrats opposed.
“The report makes clear that not even the White House can conclude there has been significant progress,” said Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.
To Bush and others who seek more time for the administration’s policy to work, she said, “We have already waited too long.”
Republicans sided with Bush — at least for now. The bill “undermines Gen. Petraeus, undermines the mission he has to make America and Iraq safe,” said the House GOP leader, Rep. John Boehner of Ohio. “What we have here is not leadership, it’s negligence.”
The Republicans who voted for the measure:
Duncan
Emerson
Gilchrest
Jones (NC)
***
House Republican Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.) released the following statement this evening after 10 Democrats joined 191 Republicans in voting against the Democratic leadership’s latest attempt to undermine our troops in the field, and wrest operational control from our commanders on the ground.
“Democrats in the House once again this evening put themselves on record in support of a strategy of surrender in Iraq – this time passing a bill that satisfies their temporary political needs, but fails to consider the needs of our troops and commanders in the field.
“Far from providing a ‘new way forward’ in Iraq, this bill offers not a single policy recommendation or point of strategy to keep our troops safe and secure, and put them in a position to be successful. The only thing it offers is a symbolic gesture of defeat paired with the necessary means of delivering it.
“The conditions on the ground in Iraq right now need to improve – a fact understood well by this Congress, the American people, and the president himself. But instead of coming together with a common purpose to craft a long-term strategy for success – a strategy that’s informed by facts on the ground and driven by a shared commitment to win – the majority continues to play politics at the expense of those who put themselves in harm’s way in service of our nation.
“In the same afternoon, Democrats also rejected a measure that would have closed the terrorist surveillance loophole in the FISA process – rounding out a day in which our mission in Iraq was dealt a further blow, and our ability to keep Americans safe at home was diminished right on the floor of the U.S. House.”
***
Ed Morrissey has Rep. John Shadegg’s speech blasting the House White Flag bill.
See what others have said
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Categories: Iraq
The republicans that are currently wavering are not acting out of principle. They are acting out of fear of being fired, which is as unprincipled as one can get.
The democrats that voted for the war when it was popular, and then voted it against it as soon as it became unpopular…these are the most contemptible of people. Yes, one can have a sincere conversion on an issue, but when these conversions occur during election years, and coincide perfectly with poll numbers, then cynicism must be called out for what it is…cold, naked political calculation.
Patience is a virtue, and apparently the democrats in congress simply have none.
Given that all we are dealing with is the fate of the free world and civilization versus death, destruction and barbarism, I think I will trust General Petraeus and the soldiers with boots on the ground to handle this matter.
We can either support General Petraeus, and contribute to saving the world, or we can undermine him. When the history books are written, those who chose to undermine him will be seen as uglier than the souls of those currently at antiwar rallies.
eric
http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/unless-your-name-is-general-david-petraeus-your-opinion-on-the-war-is-irrelevant/
Don’t ever tell us they “support the Troops” I feel so bad for every military person that volunteers only to have your country’s leaders bail out on your efforts to succeed. If they put half the effort into winning the war that they put into making America look weak and Bush a fool this war would be over and the world would again respect America.
They have weaken America for the future ever more with their actions.
They disgust me!!
Just pathetic. At the very least, it is propaganda for the enemy.
Democrat flip flopping about a war is nothing new. As I recall Demos were all in favor of Korean “Police Action” until the US started to encounter grave problems and then the Demos turned against the “Police Action” even though a Demo was then President.
The surrender monkies cannot wait to wave the white flag. They may succeed in winning this war for the terrorist, but wait and see what happens.
First, we pull out of Irag, Iran will try to take it. Iran will come in to support the Shia. On the other side, AQ and Saudi Arabia will come in to support the Sunni. Can you see where this leads.
Not only will there be mass murder, but 60% of the worlds oil production will be involved in war. Oil flow will ’stop’. Do you think the dictator of Hugo Chavez will stop selling to us as well? Can you say 25+ dollars a gallon for gasoline and a 3 gallon weekly limit.
Of course the elite will still be able to get as much gas as they want to waste. These things never seem to affect them. The eco-nuts will be in paradise (for a short while).
If we lose this, we will be right back to 1979, only much, much worse this time. AQ will be holding the keys to all the oil, they will have unlimited monies, an entire middle east full of suicide volunteers and will finance our destruction in a heartbeat.
People need to wise up quick.
This is disgusting! I hope Bush vetoes the hell out of this bill!
I am just soooooooo tired of the Deatocrats. The lowest of the low. And the defectors from our side. Time to take a hit of acid, mushrooms anyone? Let’s just get high and forget our responsibilities, huh?
Thank God for the system of checks and balances that has put the veto pen in the hands of a Republican President!
At least the misfits in “Kelly’s Heroes” got the job done. The ‘misfits’ in Congress….no.
Our soldiers are the best. The best!!. Our Congress is the worst. The worst!!!!
I shared my feelings of disgust with the 4 Republicans, since the Dems are a waste of time.
I suggested that they cross the aisle, since the kind of “contribution” they are making, to the success of our enemies, is by tradition the specialty of Democrats.
I also congratulated them on being the object of many goat’s-milk toasts in numerous caves tonight!
Except for Duncan that is. You cannot email him unless you “prove” you are from his district by providing a 9-digit zip code, and nobody was answering the phone at his office. They are probably out celebrating in anticipation of their allies’ eventual victory-headchopping festival.
I cannot wait to confront our new democrap congressman, “General” Jason Altmire, at a local town hall meeting in the coming weeks… this guy ran a campaign stating that he was going to be as tough as Melissa Hart concerning the War on Terror… it turns out he’s just another cowardly traitor democrap. I will suggest that the honorable thing for him to do is resign since he lied through his teeth to win the election.
Michelle Malkin -”By a vote of 223-201, the House of Representatives passed a surrender timetable that culminates in an April 1, 2008 withdrawal.
With all respect Michelle, the House of Representatives has come up with a rational timetable that is in accordance with the wishes of a big majority of the people that they are suppose to be representing. People who do not think that American troops should be getting killed trying mostly in vain to keep Islamic Sunnis and Islamic Shiites from killing each other, as that is clearly what they would much prefer to building a free, rule of law, respect for individual rights democracy together.
It is also in accordance with the wishes of most of our troops who are getting damn sick and tired of the whole big intractable mess, along with their multiple and extended tours and short “turn around time”.
Can’t believe so many still think our military can overcome the hatred between Shia, Sunni, and Kurds that fuels the continuing killing within these groups that has been going on for eons. What that country needs is a ruthless dictator to control the populace. Oh wait, we got rid of what’s his name.
Whether the MSM want to report it or not, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines I have served with DO understand that they are being cut off at the knees by these fools in Congress.
That is outstanding that they had a change of heart after it was politically unpopular to support the war, but our service personnel were sent into harm’s way via -bipartisan- vote. Guess what? They are STILL IN HARM’S WAY whether the politicians who put them there are defeatist now or not. THEY PUT US OVERSEAS AND THEY NEED TO PROVIDE CONTINUOUS, UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT UNTIL WE ARE NO LONGER ENGAGED!
I am absolutely sick of how this war is being managed by all of the politicians and uninformed civilians involved. Incredibly restrictive RoE, a bickering Congress and an uninformed populace are all factors placing our fighting men and women in an unnecessarily deadly position.
We volunteer to serve, we know the risks and we are committed. To all of the people who -think-they are doing us a favor by treating us like political pawns, I have nothing but contempt for you. The political cowardice back home is costing us lives and helping to expedite an outcome which is truly unacceptable.
/rant
PBoilermaker - “I am absolutely sick of how this war is being managed by all of the politicians and uninformed civilians involved. Incredibly restrictive RoE”
The war is being “managed” by George “ROP” Bush. It may not be for all that much longer, but it has been and is up to now.
BTW, the RoE are really not very restrictive in actual practice.
Really? Funny, it was when I was there last…
All this anger should be directed to the one person who has mismanaged every aspect of the Iraq war, GWB. He is almost solely responsible for the loss of respect for this country as well as our Republican Party.
Of course you would know better than those actually doing the fighting, wouldn’t you? Sure, even though the troops in the field actually have to deal with the ROE, there is no way they know as much about the issue as a keyboard warrior-civilian back home.
RoE are superseded by better tried by 12 than carried by 6.
Ahh, yes, if only we could go back to those pre-9/12 days when we were so respected in the world.
Good times….
And the name calling begins.
I am not a keyboard warrior. I am a keyboard cut and run surrender monkey.
I am a anti war conservative or libertarian Michelle. I seriously think we should pull out now. I seriously see this war as unconstitutional and pathetic. You cannot use war to battle a belief-system.
-Cannot engage in Mosques
-Cannot engage hostiles in cities without city leaders permission
-Lawyers must go out with every patrol
-Drawn absolutely no civilian blood,even though all of the enemy are by the RoE civilian partisans
-Do not treat civilian partisans by former RoE (Execute upon capture)
Yep, feralcat, not restrictive at all.
I do agree with you, though. Bush, Rumsfield, and now Congress trying to run this war all smacks of the failures we obviously didn’t learn from in Vietnam.
No worries, though. We’ll learn soon that, unlike Vietnam, when we leave, the enemy will follow us. You see, unlike Vietnam, it’s not a simple case of Communists wanting territory.
The tenets of extremist Islam are nearly identical to the tenets of Communist Russia in the 1920 (Bolshivek Revolution) to the 1960s (end of Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev leadership). Except, instead of the motherland, the Islamists are defending their violent views on their “true god”. And this will not end in Iraq, Iran, Afganistan or anywhere else.
The Democrats may end the battle of Iraq, but the war of Islam against the World will continue
Well, at least you admit you’re a clueless coward, I’ll give you credit for that.
It is amazing to me that many of the same people who wanted the will of the big majority of Americans to be respected with regard to CIR (aka amnesty), do not want the will of the big majority of Americans to be respected with regard to Iraq.
And coincidentaly, a big majority of the people haven’t studied war and associated theory at a war college, commanded a brigade of troops, handled te logistics involved with the movement and supports of thousands of men, or shouldered the awesome power of responsibility for the safety of the country (ie. no time in the military). Since when did the majority of the people become statigists? Last time I check a large part of the population couldn’t tell you how a light bulb worked…all of the sudden everyone’s a GD expert on war?!?
We understand war is hell. No one’s disputing that, but it’s a necessity if we plan on continuing the American way of life. Attempting to convince yourself otherwise is horribly irresponsible.
Don’t you think it’s time to allow the trained professionals the opportunity to do their jobs? Nobody likes a back-seat driver, especially when the back-seat driver sucks.
crashemt. Good analogy. The Democrats sold Cambodia and South Vietnam into communist slavery including the slaughter of over two million innocent civilians. Many liberals still deny this including Noam Chomsky. These Democrats are ignorant of the consequences of not standing up to facism.
xblade said: “Well, at least you admit you’re a clueless coward, I’ll give you credit for that.”
WOW, clueless and a coward!!
And I thought that I was probably overstating it when I said let the name calling begin!!!
You in the Army in Iraq now or going back over soon may I assume?
LC said:
And coincidentaly, a big majority of the people haven’t studied war and associated theory at a war college, commanded a brigade of troops, handled te logistics involved with the movement and supports of thousands of men, or shouldered the awesome power of responsibility for the safety of the country”
Most Americans don’t speak Spanish nor have they study Mexican history and they got to kill the amnesty.
So you command a brigade of U.S. soldiers I take it. You would be a Colonel?
LC stands for Lt. Colonel?
Army?
Marines? I didn’t mean to insult you if you are a Light Colonel in the Marines.
I hope that your not answering does not mean that you are under fire in Iraq.
Put me in charge.
I can here the Left crying now. Leatherneck needs compassion training. He killed all terrorists that got in the way, and he secured the southern border with Mexico.
Leatherneck if you can secure the southern border with Mexico you have got my vote in the next election.
I guess that both xblade and the Lt Colonel must be under fire in Iraq as they seem to have disappeared.
I hope that they have some Artillery support within range.
No wonder the Congress enjoys a 14% approval rating.
I’m still waiting for the day when we start implementing large arms against the small arms in Iraq. Too afraid to take the gloves off. It could be over in 72 hours.
Lt. Colonel, make sure that you tell FDC to tell the gunners to use HE/VT.
Outside of what LC said (which is correct), the largely uninformed opinions of the American populace have no place in strategic or tactical military planning.
The citizens of America DO, however, have enough knowledge of their own country’s history and laws to speak against lax border security and amnesty for illegals with authority. In this regard, it was wise of Congress to listen to the American people. Speaking Spanish and knowing the questionable revisionist history of Mexico are not prerequisites for
American citizens.
Comparing failed CIR legislation to the GWOT with regard to the validity and relevance of public opinion is like comparing apples to pretzels.
223 idiots
PBoilermaker said: - “Outside of what LC said (which is correct), the largely uninformed opinions of the American populace have no place in strategic or tactical military planning.”
True, but they should and at some point again will have the say in deciding if our involvement in Iraq continues.
BTW is LC a Lt. Colonel? Do you know? It sure looked that way from his resume in comment #26. Although someone who commanded a brigade would likely be a Full Bird. Maybe he is a senior Light Colonel?
I will go back as far as Bush I and say this. The politicians stopped the military 80 miles short of Baghdad. Big, big mistake.
Now the politicians of today want to do the same.
Bush1 unfortunately listened to his ‘political’ constiuents. Loss for America. Bill Clinton had more important things to do like ‘teaching’ interns how government really works.
Today, B ush relies on his Generals. Democratic Congress and the few defectors are now going to tell the Generals in the field what to do.
Crosby, Stills & Nash…..Deja vu.
PBoilermaker, since xblade called me a coward I can only “assume” that he is some kind of decorated war hero. He is apparently not here now. Do you know?
Gee feral… when you pull that magnetized (so you can remove it and not be embarassed when you are socilaizing) ‘I support the troops’ sticker off your Toyota Prius, Does it show your Kerry/Edwards sticker? lol.
Sorry.. had ta
feralcat probably has a ‘Carter/Mondale’ bumper sticker
geminicontender said: “I will go back as far as Bush I and say this. The politicians stopped the military 80 miles short of Baghdad. Big, big mistake.
Now the politicians of today want to do the same.”
The same thing? I thought that we had troops in Baghdad now? You are saying that “we” stopped 80 miles short this time too? The media says we have thousand of troops in Baghdad. I know someone in the Army who says that he is in Baghdad now.
Are we talking about the same Iraq?
Only a moron could spin what I said. “Cut & run.” Does that mean anything feral?
Lieutenant Colonel is abbreviated LTC, not LC.
Let it go already.
geminicontender said: “feralcat probably has a ‘Carter/Mondale’ bumper sticker”
Nope. I have never had any political bumper stickers on any car. I did vote for Reagan though. I also voted for Bush, both times although I don’t usually like to admit it.
Then accept my apology feral.
PBoilermaker - “Lieutenant Colonel is abbreviated LTC, not LC.”
I know that it is usually abbreviated that way, but I was just trying to make some sense of LC’s resume in comment #26 where it sure sounds like he indicated that he commands or did command a brigade. It sounded like some very specific things that he does/did. Actually a brigade commander would normally be a Full Bird.
Seemed like a reasonable guess brigade - LC.
geminicontender said: “Then accept my apology feral.”
Thank you. You are a scholar and a gentleman.
Pelosi Galore and the Surrender Monkies will not prevail on this issue. They have been proven impotent twice in the last 90 days: the war funding bill and the shamnesty bill. The commander in chief can decimate these charlatans with a stroke of a pen. Executive privilege trumps Congress every time. And this will be no exception. Bush is surrounded by “Copperheads”. But he has moved like Lincoln in one fundamental respect: he found a General who is willing to fight and make structural adjustments to the warfare and tactics in Iraq, taking the fight to the enemy and removing its base of operations within the populace— the only way to beat an insurgency. It is only a matter of time.
Remember the Russian general who defeated Napoleon. He was the laughing stock of Russia for refusing to attack the French holed up in Moscow. Kutuzov was his name. Falling down drunk with shame and despair: until his moment came as Napoleon retreated from Moscow. His motto the entire time was “Time and Patience. Patience and time.”
No one has bled on American soil since 9/11. And many efforts have been foiled, Mikey Chertoff notwithstanding.
We must be patient one more day and one mmore day after that….supporting the office of the President of the United States, who is following the only course open to our Nation in this miserable confrontation with the lowest form of human “religion” on the planet- the religion of Shame- Islam.
Let the Congressional traitors play their game for the final time. The events of this summer and fall will draw the line behind their pathetic carcasses. ANd they will be relegated to the dust bin of history.
The troops fighting in Iraq have a deep sense of destiny and a keen awareness of what the stakes are. We should too. And we should be communicating that message to these elitist pigs posing as national legislators. ESPECIALLY NANCY PELOSI!
Stay strong. Be Brave. Do what you think is right, my Fellow Americans. Islam must be defeated. History has shown that violence and death worship are in its DNA. We must prevail as the Spanish prevailed in 1492 when they drove the “Moors” from the Motherland.
This is Bear 1909 from Berkeley, California.
OUT!
geminicontender said:
Only a moron could spin what I said. “Cut & run.” Does that mean anything feral?
“Cut and Run” is what some who want to continue in Iraq as we are now, call those who do not.
The surrender monkeys of congress and the senate are proving what bin Laden said about America being a paper tiger with no will to win. Whatever your opinion of the war on terror and the war in Iraq, it is a just war and it must be fought. Better to kill the extremeist in Iraq and to somewhat stabilize the mid-east than to tuck tail and let a nuclear Iran control the region. By the way, many of the problems we face in the mid-east today can be laid at the feet of james earl carter, thank you. And for all of you that will call me a chicken hawk, I served in the Marine Corps from March 1969 to October 1979. My MOS was 0311 - riflman and later 0331 - machine gunner. My rank at discharge was GySgt. E7. Its truly sad to watch the democrats do again as they did to us in the 70’s. Time to go to bed. I get to take the grand kids fishing in the morning!
When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war.
May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.
–Dwight D. Eisenhower, 5 star General and 34th President of the United States of America.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m very, very happy that my Congressman (Wayne Gilchrest, one of the four R’s who voted for defeat) already has a primary opponent.
While we may not be doing exactly the correct thing militarily with a surge, it’s certainly better than withdrawal, as our enemies in the Long War will regard that as surrender and push their advantage. It’s something that the thick-headed in Congress don’t seem to understand, the enemy plays for keeps.
The preventive war should have been fought in the 70s against the Ayatollah Khomeini’s regime. The US in Iraq is not a preventive war. It was imminent. And is being duly fought.
Eisenhower never fought a preventive war. He was urged to fight one against the Russians and he responded in kind. The man saw death in the millions because politicians refused to take the necessary action to PREVENT the rise of Tojo, Hitler and Mussolini.
Eisenhower lived out his days among the ghosts on the Gettysburg battlefield, the site of one of the most futile and brutal battles in human history.
War finds those unwilling to stand up to the gut wrenching work of burying their enemies when they had the chance.
So here it is. And so it continues.
Question: Do you all agree with President Cheney’s quote that the insurgency is in its last throes? (as of May 2005)
I will say that it is just as American to disagree with the Iraq War as it stands as it is to agree to continue with it.
Quotes like this have lead to me believe that there really are people that believe that this War has less to do with terrorism and more about a battle of religions. This is concerning. I have to wonder how many more people subscribe to this opinion…
MASSIVE EDIT: Vice President Cheney
With all due respect to the current President, I apologize.
I served in OIF as a U.S. Marine. Did I watch my buddies die for nothing? How can Harry Reid and Hillary Clinton live with themselves? They vote to send my a$$ out into harms way, and then they say up, were losers lets give up! Why in the heck did they vote to send us to Iraq? Because they were lied to? That’s Bull. They had access to the same Intel. Not one of those Marines now has to go back. Its called EAS. They can get out when their contract is up. However, we are not having a recruiting problem because most believe the war in Iraq can be won. Most Marines believe we are making a difference. If we pull out to soon, the war will follow us over here. You think all the white flag politicians who sent us over there in the first place, are going to fight for you? They can’t even find their own a$$!!!!!
My letter to Rep. Doggett, who voted Yea.
Until the United Nations and multi lateral ism came to dominate American engagements the word ‘can’t’ didn’t exist in the US vocabulary.
Since the UN has injected the duplicity poison pill of anti victory, America has not fully won any conflict in which she has been involved.
I wish more Americans shared your views, you know the proper way ahead in spite of all of the naysaying.
Excellent correspondence.
Hell no Marine, hell no!
To begin with if Iraqis had rebelled to expel Saddam more Iraqis would have died before noon than have died in five years.
Saddam would have killed every single Iraqi and would not flinched in order stay in power.
And besides American forces have sent a great number of Jihadis straight to eternal damnation and for each one dispatched, that’s one less that comes here to threaten yours and mine and for which many Americans are sincerely grateful for yours and theirs sacrifice.
Abandoning our ally, South Vietnam, was the reason I swore, while I watched Walter Cronkite cover the fall of Saigon, I would never be nor support ANY Democrat. The Dems did this to get revenge against Ford for pardoning Nixon then. They do it now as revenge against Bush for “stealing” the 2000 election.
Although it wasn’t named, the Dems were infected with Nixon Derangement Syndrome then as they are infected with Bush Derangement Syndrome now. They hate Republicans more than they value fledgling, if flawed, democracies we had promised to support.
All this speculative blather makes me ill. When the next shoe drops (an American city nuked, chemical attack, or…) our country will be so bound up, the jihad will move on Israel and we will be unable to respond to our mid-east ally. Europe will fold and the mosque building will begin in earnest. Wake up dolts, we are in a world war for our very existance! Our children and theirs are not safe now…we must take the fight to these barbarians.
#59~
You may not view this fight as a religious war, but our enemies sure do. To them, it’s Muslim vs. The Infidel, which includes Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jews, Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists, Pagans, Animists, etc., are all included.
#64~
Thanks. I’m not too pleased with my Representative. With redistricting, I got moved from having Lamar Smith (R-TX) to Defeatocrat Lloyd Doggett (D-TX).
Miss Ladybug a.k.a. #68 & #69
I find it very interesting that you have attached supporting the troops to supporting the mission. Do you believe that it is not possible to support the troops while coming to the conclusion that Iraq either a) wasn’t a good move in the first place or b) hasn’t been managed well and needs a new direction (read: Bill O’Reilly)?
It sounds to me like Rep. Doggett never had your support in the first place, but now even more so. But even now if you have pulled your support, I ask you to consider what Americans are to think as the American price paid by our soldiers has exceeded 3,600? The latest Gallup/USAToday poll says that 62% of Americans think Iraq was a mistake! Do you think that over 60% of the country doesn’t support the troops???
Even fellow GOPers have said that the Iraqi citizens are not standing up to the infighting like they should be. This is not a by-product of the MSM. This is a fight with the Republican party.
I tell you something that does tick me off about the MSM. When I wake up in the morning and I see the death of a sholdier on page 5, I think that there is something wrong with that. That should be front page news. In fact, it used to be in the early days of the war. We should not get used to it. I believe that people are saying that if America fights militarily, that we do conscious of the problem that we are facing and how we are going to solve it. I don’t think that opinion is so far-fetched.
Terrorism is a code of waging tactical warfare against civilian populations. Religion is the jihadist philosophical and “moral” basis for its application against the rest of the world of “non-believers”.
My quote doesn’t label this a religious war. It identifies the ISLAMIC element as the essence of the terrorist “army” against which a secular society (US) fights.
The less we as a country know and understand about Islam, the more everything else that we think we understand will only confuse us.
My quote should remind you that there REALLY ARE people who know our history and the history of the world, ancient and modern alike.
The religions of the world are worthy of study. It doesn’t mean that one should feel under compulsion to believe.
Ignorance of religions is ignorance of human communities that so many wish to see changed.
Some Americans believe that if this is in fact a “religious war” that this gives them grounds to say “we should not be involved”. Foolishness. And contradictory. If they think Jerry Falwell and his religious buffoons were a threat to their civil liberties, try Sharia law on for size— convert, submit, or die.
The actions of Pakistani President Musharraf in fumigating the vermin out of the Red Mosque should give us a clue about how to successfully deal with the enemy in Iraq. Of course, if the U.S. military tried these tactics, those who ordered and participated would be facing a court martial.
Edits: “This is a fight WITHIN the Republican Party.”
“When I wake up in the morning and I see the death of a solider on page 5, I think that there is something wrong with that.
bear, this post certainly is quite different than the tone of your previous one. Whenever one says “Islam must be defeated,” you are implying that a) The War is against Islam and/or b) Violence and Terrorism are elements exclusive only to Islam. I doubt you are saying either. But these quotes certainly can lead to an interpretation of Christianity vs. Islam. That is what worries me because there are many muslims who support the US no matter what and our right to freedom and would object to the characterization that they religion should be “defeated.” If someone said “Christianity should be defeated,” I’d say you were cruisin’ for a bruisin’. LOL
You can’t win a fiasco, and the two pillars of the Iraq strategy were both grossly stupid: Saddam’s imaginary WMD; and the expected grateful reception by the Iraqi people of an American invasion and occupation, leading to a transformed Iraq which would serve as a Shining City on the Hill to act as an inspiration to the other Arab countries. “When they see what Iraq has, they’ll all want it.” LOL. Right, beheadings, ethnic civil war, anarchy, terrorism, corruption, and all the other goodies.
Always listen to your daddy instead of a bunch of slimy Jewish neocons with suspiciously close ties to Israel and an incompetent affirmative action Nat. Sec. Adviser. What has happened was quite predictable.
The only thing there is to win in Iraq is abu-booby prize, the father of all booby prizes.
Murtha’s curse. A senile old fraud with good press drives the wagon providing cover for these simpletons.
DarkKnight~
I got redistricted into Doggett’s district for this last election cycle. No, he didn’t have my support in November 2006. He doesn’t vote right on immigration reform, either, and I’ve given him my 2 cents on that, too.
Yes, I think it is necessary to support the troops’ mission to truly “support the troops”. As an admittedly simplified analogy, if you decided to pursue some task because it was something you believed in, but all you heard from your family and friends was that “we love you, but we don’t love what you are doing” over and over and over again, don’t you think you’d get discouraged? Might your morale, your sense of rightness in what you were doing, falter? Might you begin to question yourself? I think it would…
The troops’ mission is to defeat the terrorists (in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in the Horn of Africa). I fully understand that adjustments to the strategy may be required (what’s that saying? “No plan survives the first engagement with the enemy”?). Yes, we have needed to make adjustments in Iraq. We are doing that now - Gen. Petraeus, from what I understand, literally wrote the book on counter-insurgency. President Bush appointed, and the Senate confirmed, him as the man to run things on the ground in Iraq. He says counter-insurgencies can take 10-15 years to defeat the insurgency. Congress have given it what? 3 weeks since the last “surge brigade” was in place? Talk about giving up before things have even started….
As for casualties, it pains me to know that 3600 servicemember have died fighting in Iraq. Although not all those deaths are combat-related, it is still an American servicemember who leaves behind people that love him/her. I don’t live in a military town, but I’m not far from some. I recently was able to attend the funeral of one of the fallen. I felt it was my duty to show my support to his family. I have been able to get in contact with his mother via email and have offered my support if she needs it - “just let me know what you need, and I’ll see what I can do…” I understand the cost to military families, although, since my father retired from the military almost 16 years ago, I am not currently worrying about a friend or family member in a war zone.
All this being said, just compare the KIA in this conflict (include the numbers for Afghanistan, too, if you’d like), and compare them to ANY other sustained conflict the United States has been involved in. We have the lowest casualty rates today than ANY of those other wars. I can only imagine what the outcome of WWII would have been like if we’d had to deal then with the kind of media we have today. We lost thousands in the D-Day Invasion. Thousands more on Iwo Jima. Would that I could not snap my fingers and have none of our military ever die in a war, ever, but the world just doesn’t work that way.
So it was lettuce heads to Chertoff for shamnesty…what exactly should we send those who “represent” us so that even they comprehend that this nation desires on thing: VICTORY IN THE FACE OF ALL TERROR. Where’s PM Churchill when we need him???
“Would that I could now snap my fingers and have none of our military ever die in a war, ever, but the world just doesn’t work that way”
DarkKnight~
Currently, what group(s) are known for blowing up/heading/murdering innocent civilians the world over? It’s not Christianity, Hinduism, Jews, Shintoism, etc. It’s Muslims. Those Muslims who support us are viewed by the Muslim terrorists as apostates. I think I heard a while back, that if you look at every ongoing conflict on the planet, you will find that most of them have Muslims as one of the beligerants in said conflict.
I don’t think that there are many people who say that the same amount of people have to die in the Iraq War that died in the Vietnam War in order to conclude that the war cannot be won militarily. With that said, I am reading story after story of more soliders who are coming out publicly against this War. They are just as much Americans for their services and willingness to serve. But they know that there is a distinct line between supporting the troops vs. not supporting the troops, and legitimate dissent. One is wise to recognize the difference.
With that said, I will grant that not all of the 3600 are combat related. But almost 3000 are. This fact alone is leading more and more people to question the legitimacy of the war. Everytime I read the call to arms of the Patriot Guard, I am humbled by the courage of our troops currently serving. But makes me more diligent to look after their well-being with as much vigilence politically as possible…dissent included. That is just as patriotic as those who unconditionally support any war the President wages.
Couple that with the fact that even MSM don’t cover military losses like they used to… I seem to remember FoxNews putting up personal biographies of every soldier killed in combat, now I believe that they have stopped doing that as the casualties mounted. It is easy to see the anger that military families feel in expressing that the country does not feel the sense of loss they are feeling in their household with their loved one overseas.
Key word Miss Ladybug… Currently.
As a Christian man, I would love to believe that no acts of terror have been committed in the name of my religion. Sadly this is not the case. That doesn’t mean that I am naive enough to note that radical clerics are much more vocal than radical preachers. I am just saying that President Bush has said repeatedly that this is not a war of religions. But more and more people, both pro-US and anti-US are seeing it as such.
This is cause for concern. That was my point.
Edit: That doesn’t mean that I am not naive enough to note that radical clerics are much more vocal than radical preachers. They indeed are.
Its almost 2 in the morning. :-/
DarkKnight~
This will probably be the last post for the night…
Anyway, I obviously don’t have direct experience with combat and I’ve never been formally educated on military strategy. But, I’ve found some pretty smart people to read who have. I am a daily reader of: Blackfive, Mudvillle Gazette, Milblogs and Michael Yon, to name just a few. These military persons (both former/retired and active duty) support the war. These site have helped to expose the likes of Jesse MacBeth and other “veterans” as frauds. The Appeal for Courage has more signatories than the astroturf Appeal for Redress.
As for “the war cannot be won militarily”? No, it will not be won through military superiority alone. But, without this military component, the elements that will end the fighting and result in a stable, democratic Iraq don’t have a chance. It would be The Killing Fields all over again. It would create an even wider conflict - Iran would move even further to interfere with Iraq’s internal affairs. Saudi Arabia wouldn’t let that stand and would move to support the Sunni elements. You think gas prices are high now? Wait until the entire Persian Gulf explodes into a regional conflict if the Democrats and White Flag Republicans get their way.
AQ has said they view Iraq as the main battlefield. Leaving now, or on April 1st, will give them the victory they so desperately want. Leaving now will make the United States look weak, and AQ will press that to their advantage. AQ has come to believe that if they just kill enough American servicemembers, we will leave with our collective tail between our legs. They look at Vietnam, Beirut and Somalia as the relevant examples. I’m hoping AQ is wrong about that, but with the House’s vote today, they might just be right.
DarkKnight~
I see the clock, too…
Anyway, “currently” is the key word. I know my history, too. Thankfully, Christians, by and large, have evolved beyond holy war mentalities. Sadly, the same cannot be said of Muslims. When Christians do wrong, most other Christians condemn those actions. I know there are Muslims who condemn the actions of the Muslim terrorists, but the perception is that most Muslims don’t, for whatever reason. People are left to wonder: are they silent out of agreement with those actions, or out of fear of what might happen to them should they speak out?
OT
Another dead victim because ICE refuses to do it’s job. Is it cruel to wish this was Chertoff’s daughter rather than this family?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289165,00.html
I would not wish that upon any family. Yes, it is cruel to bring Chertoff’s family into this. Many people would object to the defense of if the War would be handled differently if the Bush girls were in it. So let’s not resort to that.
With that said, I’m praying for her and her family. Hard to believe that there are people like this in the world.
Again… the keyword “perception.”
Just Google “Muslims against terrorism” and there are litany of people and groups that seek to promote Islam as a religion of peace. Honestly, I do not know why there is not a united front of Christians and Muslims in trying to fight extreamism and more dialogue to understand the other side. But I think that groups like CAIR, while condemning terrorism, want to ensure Muslims are not targeted and profiled unnecessarily.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/12/plane.diverted/index.html
I think that the perception that Muslims tolerate this is magnified by the constant stream of violence that we seem in the papers in Iraq, the attacks in London and other misgiving about the Middle East including their strangle-hold on the oil of the world.
All I am saying is that we must be careful not to be blinded by our idealogy and let that blind us to the reality in front of us. I have not heard MM or Laura Ingram or Rush talk much about the 3,600 soldiers killed. We all honor their individual sacrifice, as I am sure conservatives and liberal alike appreciate their service. But sometimes it is easy to lose sight of the fact that this war keeps dragging on, the death toll keep rising and there will come a point when the people finally say enough is enough. This is happening with more and more members of the GOP.
DarkKnight, it is amazing how you and I agree so much on the Iraq war, that is we both want American troops out soon although apparently not for ALL the same reasons (BTW, I think that we should keep some substantial number in Kurdistan), BUT how we differ so profoundly on the nature of Islam.
I believe that Mohammad was one of the most evil men to ever walk the face of the earth. I believe, and I am an atheist, that Christ was one of the very best men to ever walk the face of the earth.
To me the more like Christ a Christian
is the better person he likely is. The more like Mohammad a Muslim is the worse person he likely is. So I guess we should all want Christians to be good at being Christians and Muslims to be poor at being Muslims. I know that I do.
Frankly the best Muslims seem to be those who are not very good at being Muslims.
As far as I am concerned the only good Muslims are the apostates.
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“We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116).
But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.”
*************************************
A commenter, A_Plague_on_Both_Houses, from another website tells the tail of the Moderate Unicorn.
Moderate Unicorns
In medieval times, people created fairy tales and magical creatures to make sense of their world. One of the most endearing is the unicorn, a horse with a single horn that symbolized purity and wholesomeness. In our modern times, people in Europe and the United States consider themselves more sophisticated and rational than people from the Middle Ages, but we still create myths, albeit more subtle ones.
Daily we hear reports of violent acts committed by Islamic terrorists on every inhabited continent. We try to wish it away with the myth of the ‘Moderate Muslim’, telling ourselves the Islamic agenda has been’ hijacked’ by a ‘tiny minority of extremists’ and that soon the huge, silent, moderate majority of Muslims will take charge and change
things. However, post 9/11 very few Muslims have condemned terrorist
actions. We are still waiting for moderates to stand and deliver,
identifying and removing extremist thugs from their mosques and their communities. Waiting for this self-correction is our modern version of unicorn searching.
Moderate Muslims will not be able to wrest control of the agenda for several reasons. First of all, Mohammad, the Messenger of Allah’s eternal word, was not moderate. No moderate can legitimately tell another Muslim to stop doing the extremist things Mohammad himself did. Also, the Qur’an condones violence and coercion to further the Islamic agenda. People whom we call moderates are labeled hypocrites by Allah Himself in the Qur’an. Moderates will always lose the argument because, as ex-Muslim author Ibn Warraq says, “There may be moderates in Islam but
Islam itself is not moderate.”
Islamic expert Daniel Pipes and others estimate ten percent of the Islamic world to be militant. In 1933 when the Nazi party took control of Germany it had 2 million members, comprising only three percent of Germany’s sixty-six million citizens. A tiny minority of extremists can control a vast number of moderates, making them irrelevant.
Placing hope in ‘The Moderate Muslim’ is like searching for unicorns in the forest.
Let me run a “scenario” by folks who think that not supporting the continuation of having American troops in Iraq for that much longer is somehow whimpy or cowardly or cut-and-run or surrender monkey.
Do you know who Audie Murphy was?
He was the most decorated U.S. Army soldier EVER!. He was a legend in the Third Army during WWII. The Army itself has said “There will NEVER be another Audie Murphy”! He was the Greatest of the Greatest Generation.
If he were still alive and was a congressman he might well vote to end this war. I know a fair amount about him and think that he probably would. But at the VERY LEAST it is very plausible.
Would you then call him a whimp or cowardly or cut-and-run or surrender monkey. Would you think that it would be OK for say Congressman Boehner (who called those not wanting to continue keeping American troops in Iraq wimps) to call him one? Audie Murphy would just have to say yes Sir Congressman Boehner, I am a whimp. I am fleeing in terror. I am a coward.
Would you regard Boehner who lasted all of 8 weeks in the Navy, brave because he voted to have our troops stay and called those who did not wimps?
xblade said: “Well, at least you admit you’re a clueless coward, I’ll give you credit for that.”
You know that did not bother me much earlier, but it is really starting to “stick in my craw” now.
As you called me a coward, do you mind telling us what YOUR dd214 looks like?
It seems to be an appropriate question under the circumstances.
If one wants to look at it from a technical standpoint, then I do not place my hope in “the Moderate Muslim” or any other man because my hope is in Christ Jesus.
But we’ll address your point that Christian is good and Islam is bad. Psalm 118:17 says that “I will not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord.” So in my daily walk, I should try and live my life the way God wants me to be and to show His light through me. So yes, we all are trying to be more “Christ-like.”
At the same time, the same Bible instructs me that “All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.” (Romans 3:23). This means that I have sin that I have to ask God’s forgiveness for. So does everyone else (see my post in the thread regarding Sen. Vitter).
Matthew 7:1 says to “Judge not, lest ye be judged” and goes on to say “Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:4) In other words, it does no good for me to condemn other people for not walking uprightly when I myself am not walking uprightly the way I should (see Taggard, other politicians “caught up”, etc).
That essentially means I cannot go around condemning other people and trying to convert them. Sometimes the more you tell a person to do something, the less they are to do it and vice versa.
So what does that all mean? I happen to think that while I do not subscribe to the thing that Islam teaches, the vast majority of Muslims I have met belive in God and His power, and desire peace. These people find no joy in reading about dead soliers and stuff like that. I belive these are the people we shoule be “going after.”
Romans 12:18 says “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” If there are indeed Moderate Muslims, which I do think there are, it is incumbant on all of us to come together to battle the forces of terror. I think many Ameicans believe that a few fringe elements are casting shadow over the entire faith of islam. It’s almost as if Christianity is being defined by the Westboro Baptist Church, IMO. That would be rediculous.
It can be done.
DarkKnight - “These people find no joy in reading about dead soliers and stuff like that.
DarkKnight, your heart seems to be in the right place, but you are profoundly naive.
You may want to reread the Tail of the Moderate Unicorn.
I must retire for the evening or else I could flood you with so many references.
I will leave you with this for now however:
2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
Hugh Fitzgerald:
“The United States has no stake in bringing together Sunni and Shi’a. The Bush Administration, unable to recognize its mistakes about Islam and about Iraq, appears determined to continue to invest more and more, of money and material and men’s lives — to pursue a wrong course. In this respect it reminds one of the stubborn, crazed policy pursued during the hideous trench warfare of World War I, for no reasons that made sense, but because, once the thing started, no one could figure out how to stop it.
The generals who have, for the right reasons (not the zinni-ish line of appeasement, but because the war aims in Iraq make no real sense, the “mission” cannot be articulated by Bush because even to try to do so would show up how misguided the whole thing is) opposed the war should speak up. And those who are with tunnel vision thinking only of the “job we have to do” right here in Baghdad are not serving the country well.
As for those who say things like “on average, insurgencies last about ten years,” to them one can only reply: what would you think of someone who self-assuredly proclaimed that “on average, American wars last an average of 2.1 years” or “on average, wars around the world sinc 1500 have lasted about 13.16 years” or “on average, civil wars last about 3.7 years.”
You would see right away how vacuous and jejune are such remarks. But for some reason, those “counterinsurgency experts” who make such statements, and then as well think they are little-lawrence-of-arabias with their knowledge of the “Sunni tribes” and their ability to really get to know those sheikhs because they are aware of how to sit, and which hand to use, and what formula to utter, and how to listen patiently as the local Arab, who knows exactly how to manipulate the American army officer who is under the impression that it is he, the American, who is doing the manipulating, presents his wish-list for still more money, still more of those nice advanced American weapons and, oh yes, some more raids by American soldiers on that particular sheikh’s particular enemies, whether or not they belong to Al Qaeda, which is not, pace Patraeus and Bush, the only problem for there are a dozen different, mutually hostile, constantly shifting in their allegiances groups in Iraq, but all of them, in the end, consist of Muslims, and therefore none of them, in end, can conceivably be won over, not their hearts, and not their minds, to be real as opposed to temporary and feigned, friends of American Infidels.”
Not naive. I just still have hope.
“I still believe in spite of everything that people are really good at heart.” -Anne Frank
Despite the evil in the world, I still believe that we can defend our country against evil. Evil does not rest in simply one religion. That is where I agree with the president that this is NOT a war of religions. While we must battle those who wronged us on 9/11, I feel strongly that we needed to take care of Bin Laden first. It is my opinion that we must be wise about how we use our resources. I will unite with anyone who shares my belief in attacking those who attacked our homeland… Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, whatever.
Martin Luther King said “We must learn to live together as brothers, or perish together as fools.”
Edit for Clarification: I will unite with anyone: Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, etc. in devoting whatever is necessary to attack those who attacked our homeland.
There are three methods to gaining wisdom. The first is reflection, which is the highest. The second is imitation, which is the easiest. The third is experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
Martin Luther King said “We must learn to live together as brothers, or perish together as fools.”
Hatred may be engendered by good deeds as well as bad ones. - Niccolo Machiavelli
Hence it happened that all the armed prophets conquered, all the unarmed perished. - Niccolo Machiavelli
And many writers have imagined for themselves republics and principalities that have never been seen or known to exist in reality; for there is such a gap between how one lives and how one ought to live that anyone who abandons what is done for what ought to be done learns his ruin rather than his preservation: for a man who wishes to profess goodness at all times will come to ruin among so many who are not good. - Niccolo Machiavelli