Ok done….

Many of your accusations are just that, accusations.

If there is one message in this post that I want to get out there to folks like Darkknight, feralcat, and MikeB, it’s this: stop lecturing me and others about what it means to be an American.

Never once have I lectured anyone here on what an American should or should not be. We are all Americans, no matter our political beliefs. This is true whether it is immigration, race, War, economics… That is what makes this country so great.

You can quote philosophical garbage by your favorite philosophers but this debate will always boil down to one thing: what will it take to make our country safe and how much needs to be sacrificed in order to do it?

I quoted Anne Frank, MLK and the Bible because I believe that we can still stand united no matter our race, class or ethnicity. This happened after 9/11 so I still believe it can be done. I believe in hope. Its not philosophy. It’s a spirit.

Or do you want to, in your “you’re wrong” zeal, call me a “Bush bot?”

Never once have I called anyone out of their names such as a “Bush Bot” or a “Zealot” or any other name. I will not start that tonight as a result of you stating your opinion that you do not want the U.S. to leave Iraq.

I would like the three of you to put yourselves in the shoes of someone like me. Patriotism is an easy thing to say you practice but harder to achieve on a daily business when the limelight’s gone and ordinary life returns. Military families (like mine and terrig’s) put up with a lot.

Never once have I tried to speak for military families. The ONLY people who know what its like to be in a military family is… a military family. I don’t understand why you feel that somehow everyone else on this site understands where you are coming from (they can’t all be from military families) and I don’t. The truth is that an overwhelmingly large amount of people both on this site and across the country will never be able to fully understand the sacrifice military families make in times of war (and peace for that matter). You, your husband and your children have my utmost admiration and respect.

Perhaps we both can agree that more of the American people need to take the sacrifice the military families are making more seriously and do what they can to support them both when their loved ones are away and when they come back?

As for you, feralcat, and you Darkknight, you’re just the same – though trying to paint yourself in some RINO void.

Never once have I painted myself in a “RINO void.” I reject that assertion. I have said from the get-go that more people in our country need to have a more open mind to the thoughts and opinions of others. This is what democracy is all about, right? But it sure is difficult to do that when people accuse you of being an “anti-military sympathizer” just because you object to the original evidence or the present direction of the Iraq War.

Truth be told, the American public was overwhelmingly behind the military and behind the War in Iraq when it first started. As time has gone on, support the War was waned, but support for our troops remains. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this point becaus I do believe that people can support the troops and not the War in Iraq. For you (or anyone) to call me (or anyone else) an “anti-military sympathizer,” simply because of our observations of the way the War in Iraq has gone, is entirely unjustified.

Let me conclude by saying this:

I pray everyday for my close friends who are overseas right now that God will protect them. They aren’t family, but I have known these people for years. I take my position on the War on Terrorism and the War in Iraq very seriously with much thought and introspection.

Anyways….DarkKnight’s web reference says:

“Christianity is the world’s biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide.

It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago.”

“Biggest religion”? I’m no intellectual snob, but using the word “biggest” to describe the demographics of religious believers of a myriad of different religious denominations? The source is immediately suspect as to its 1) relevance and 2)Protestant denominations have been organizing themselves into Christian enclaves for centuries to offset the stigma of having been split off from the Catholic Church, the only Church to organize a religious base worldwide, directly from the first appointed Pope by Christ Himself…..that is a lot of intergenerational shame to carry around all these years; thus, all of these mass rallies and stadium glutting evangelistic gatherings; and let’s not forget the mass success of multilevel marketing.

All because one can get a bigger collection basket going if you blur the lines of congregations and say “We are all Christians”. Maybe so….but snake healing and rapture and Jerry Falwell have NUTTIN to do with Christ’s teachings and consecration of Life.

Now…to bring it back to being at war with Islam- it is the snake biting my face and I must end it. Let the religion of Islam be splintered into a million branches where each branch lances the boil of violence that is driving the world into Hell.

This is Bear1909 from Berkeley California. OUT!

When I was in college, one of the girls who lived on my floor in the dorm was from a NY Italian-American Catholic family. She started going to the Baptist Student Union. She explained to me that, according to Baptists, Catholics weren’t Christians (didn’t understand the rational for that statement).

Later, at that fundamentalist Baptist university, while all the staff were “at chapel”, my boss and I were wandering about the store (since we had no one to train…) taking a look at their merchandise. They had little booklets (Chick tracts??) about different religions, detailing what was wrong with each of them. Needless to say, I didn’t feel the need to let them know I was Catholic. They were customers, and they were already prosyletizing enough, already, showing off their dark and depressing chapel and waiting us to see their little promo video they like to show to prospective students.

You did a much better job than I did in explaining “Christianity is not a religion”. Thanks!

Until the basis for terrorism, strict adherence to the primary religious teachings of Islam (Quran and Shura)and the underlying “civil” code for its social practices and conventions(sharia)are banished from social participation in any form, and the religion of Islam *reformed* to bring it out of the 8th century, until Islam as an organizing principle for terrorists is defeated and discredited as a religion, there will be no peace with these rats.

Islam was *founded* based on warfare and martial conquest. Its basic code is still practiced today for that purpose. True, Catholics and Protestants, distorted Christ’s Church to become royalist conquerors. But the DNA of the Catholic religion and the Protestant religions is not “Kill the non-believer.”

The Catholic Popes may have ruled like Kings, not spiritual descendants of the Son of God, the Word Made Flesh. Islam has not been corrupted. The rules are clearly spelled out. And those who do not adhere strictly (Musharraff) as heads of state are on tenuous grounds with followers of the purist mullahs.

And as for the apostates who do not follow the teachings, but who say maybe pray more than once a day, what relevance do they have to what is happening? They are indifferent to the stakes of this war. But are they indifferent to what is waiting for them if we lose? Why would they care if Islam was defeated militarily by mass killing and death (in Syria, Libya, Iran, large portions of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, and Indonesia)to the point that surviving Moslems inherited the religious doctrine and reformed its social practice (no more honor killings, torture, clitorectomies, burkahs, etc etc…)Sure, they would be bummed if they were living in a nuked country during the world war that is coming. But, politically how and why are they relevant?

BTW, the largest organized religion in the world is Catholicism in terms of the numbers of practicing and the amount of real estate it owns worldwide.
Look it up.

What??? Christianity is the largest religion in the world and is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Christianity is the fabric of denominations who accept Jesus Christ’s teachings. Christian is the moniker given to the direct followers of Jesus of Nazareth back in the day. “of Christ”.

The church, and therefore the religion, founded by Christ, is- and remains- the Catholic Church. Catholicism is a religion based on the seven sacraments, with the Eucharist being the centerpiece ritual upon which all teachings of the Catholic religion cohere.

The aggregate of Protestant denominations are Christian religions….but it doesn’t hold that “Christianity” is A religion. Christianity holds no central doctrine common to Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, et al. These religions differ in KIND enough to be separate faiths. They accept the existence of Jesus Christ as the Savior and Son of a Triune God. From there practice, dogma, and participation, clergy and social organization differ enough to render the term “Christianity” meaningless when referring to “religion”. They are Christian religions, meanign they are Christ-centered. But when one says Christianity is a religion, there is no THERE there. No center. No hierarchy. No nada.

The Crusaders were Christians in that they accepted Christ. But they practiced different religions than say the Coptics, or the Greek Orthodox. Those are religious doctrines in their own right. Christian merely differentiates between those who follow Yahweh (but who disavow Jesus as being the Son of God), Allah, or Christ Himself.

For one to say, I practice Christianity…but do not follow the ways of Christ (the seven sacraments) are practicing an intellectual abstraction which distorts the religious doctrine of Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism etc.

It makes sense to say: I am a Christian who practices Catholicism, or Lutheranism etc.

I’m sorry but you only speak for yourselves. I don’t really care if you “claim” to have served in the military or not – please don’t use the justification of “I was in a war I know what it’s about” so this war stinks as an argument.

I’m a military spouse. I feel that MikeB is pathetically transparent an anti-military sympathizer as ever existed. As for you, feralcat, and you Darkknight, you’re just the same – though trying to paint yourself in some RINO void.

Leaving Iraq is defeat – or do you want to correct me? Or do you want to, in your “you’re wrong” zeal, call me a “Bush bot?” I wish people that don’t agree with others would own up to who they really are, Dem or Republican, or Independent or even Socialist. I don’t really care. Society is still defined by how we see ourselves – political affiliations are one of those definitions.

In my heart, I will never buy the sentiment of “I support the troops not the war” garbage. It’s crap. That’s it. Americans have all the patience of 3 year old children I think. The only thing that really mobilized people beyond the Iraq War, was ironically, illegal invasion (which I don’t support).

Yeah, I have issues with Pres. Bush. He’s an illegal appologist who wants to garner their favor for the Republican Party. The Iraq War has been mismanaged as well. No doubt about it. Even the Air Force can’t fiscally manage their procurement dollars and would rather axe 40,000 people than admit that they need actual people with accounting expertise than “training.”

If there is one message in this post that I want to get out there to folks like Darkknight, feralcat, and MikeB, it’s this: stop lecturing me and others about what it means to be an American. To be an American, I think one should have at least an 80% score on the Citizenship Test all prospective citizens take. No one knows anymore(not even you three)how America got to where she is today. You can quote philosophical garbage by your favorite philosophers but this debate will always boil down to one thing: what will it take to make our country safe and how much needs to be sacrificed in order to do it? I think, feralcat, you do people on this board a huge injustice when you decide to abuse the example of Audie Murphy and say what he would have done (where is your history degree?). Stop speaking for people who died for this country.

I would like the three of you to put yourselves in the shoes of someone like me. Patriotism is an easy thing to say you practice but harder to achieve on a daily business when the limelight’s gone and ordinary life returns. Military families (like mine and terrig’s) put up with a lot. Moves every three years, destruction of property, blatant disrespect from the community you live in, job discrimination because you’re seen as a “transient” rather than the spouse of someone fighting for this country’s freedom.

I feel many on this board (like terrig) understand where I’m coming from. I, however, don’t get that from the likes of Darkknight, feralcat, and MikeB.

MikeyB, FeralCat and the DarkKnight are again lecturing us on why we’re all wrong. How do you three make it through the day with all that superior knowledge in your noggins? We’re so pleased that you can post here (which we’re not allowed to do on your brand of websites) and tell us all what we’re doing wrong. So glad you’re hear to “train” us.

It’s a tough job, but someone has to accept the burden.

Yes the war is against Islam not terrorism.”

Yes, just as WWII was against Germany and Japan and not against blitzkriegorism nor against divebomberism.