Taliban hostage deadline looms: South Korean Christians face death Update: Korean negotiators meet kidnappers; Taliban wants money
Bumped…originally posted July 24, 2007 @ 08:21am
Update 2:45pm Eastern. The “final stage”…Now they want money. Meanwhile, still very little American coverage of the ongoing crisis. Maybe if the kidnapped South Korean Christian missionaries were journalists or drunken celebrities, the story would get some attention.
Update 2:15pm Eastern. “Negotiations” continue, Afghan villagers protest Taliban: CBS News reports…Afghan elders and clerics were trying to negotiate with militants holding 23 South Korean hostages in central Afghanistan a day after a purported Taliban spokesman said the hard-line militia had extended its deadline for their lives until Tuesday evening. The South Korean Defense Ministry, meanwhile, said it asked the Afghan military to refrain from conducting operations near the location where the hostages were believed to be held out of concern the kidnappers could be provoked. Villagers in Ghazni Province held a rally demanding that the hostages be released, said Mohammad Zaman, the deputy provincial police chief. Some carried banners and shouted slogans calling for the Koreans to be freed, he said. An AP Television News reporter saw 100 to 150 villagers demonstrating. “We want the Taliban to release them, because they are guests,” Zaman said. “They are in Afghanistan and we want them to be safe.”
Update 11:40am Eastern. Taliban wants an 8-for-8 hostages for jailed jihadis trade.
I know I shouldn’t been stunned by the lack of attention being paid to this story, but I am. The 23 South Korean Christians, including 18 women, kidnapped by the Taliban in Afghanistan are scheduled to be put to death tonight. The hostages are mostly medical workers and teachers. The ultimatum has been pushed back three times now:
Troops killed at least 75 militants in three separate battles in southern Afghanistan, while the Taliban extended the deadline for the lives of 23 South Korean hostages until Tuesday evening.
South Korea’s president appealed for calm as the deadline neared. Afghan elders and clerics were trying to negotiate with militants holding the hostages in central Afghanistan.
In southern Helmand province, Afghan troops ambushed by militants called in airstrikes and fought back with small-arms and mortar fire, the U.S.-led coalition said. The coalition said at least 36 insurgents were killed in the fighting Monday, but no Afghan or coalition troops were hurt.
In Uruzgan province, police clashed for three days with militants blocking the road leading to Kandahar province, leaving 26 militants and two policemen dead, said Wali Jan, the Uruzgan deputy highway police chief. NATO-led and Afghan army troops joined the battle Tuesday, reopening the road for civilians traffic, he said.
Another 13 suspected militants were killed in Kandahar province, the Defense Ministry said.
The battles took place in remote and dangerous parts of Afghanistan, and the death tolls could not be independently confirmed.
Qari Yousef Ahmadi, who claims to speak for the Taliban, said the militants had extended the deadline on the fate of the kidnapped South Koreans another day after the Afghan government refused to release any of the 23 Taliban prisoners the insurgents want freed.
The militants have pushed back their ultimatum at least three times.
The Independent reports on the underground Afghan Christian movement. Apostates, as you’ll remember from the Abdul Rahman case, are subject to the death penalty for abandoning Islam:
The kidnapping of South Korean church volunteers by the Taliban has sparked vigils in Seoul, and shone the spotlight on Afghanistan’s small, underground Christian community.
In Mazar-e-Sharif, home to one of Islam’s most revered shrines, Ahmedi, 33, says he would be killed instantly if his faith were exposed. In this staunchly traditional society, conversion from Islam remains reviled by many Afghans - and by government officials. “If the war had not happened, if the Americans and foreigners had not come to Afghanistan, we would not have this freedom and we would not have this office,” says Ahmedi, who was fearful of giving his full name. The “office” is a community centre set up by a Christian charity, and Ahmedi is one of 100 or so Christians living in the northern city.
Rumours abound here that many aid organisations are used as a cover by foreigners to indoctrinate people into Christianity. And in Ahmedi’s case, there is an element of truth - he converted from Shia Islam three years ago after meeting an American evangelical. Now his wife and four children are also Christian, and he is the priest of a local church. He has even helped convert other Afghans.
The 23 South Koreans were kidnapped last week at gunpoint from a bus in Ghazni province, and belong to the Saemmul Church in Bundang, which says they are working as volunteer nurses and English teachers. However, boasts from some evangelical church leaders in South Korea about unofficially sending missionaries to Afghanistan has muddied the water between Christian volunteers doing humanitarian work, and those whose primary mission is to seek converts overseas.
In Mazer-e-Sharif, a recent convert called Abdullah recalled how his family reacted when he revealed his change of faith. “When I received Jesus, I went to my house and I didn’t say prayers any more like other Muslims,” he said. “One night my father asked me to get up and pray, but I told him I can’t. He asked me why, and I told him I was a Christian. He started to fight with me.”
Abdullah’s parents have come to accept his religion, but his oldest brother continues to ostracise him, and most other people do not even know he has converted. “If I go out and say I am a Christian they will curse me, hit me and kill me,” he said, matter of factly…Despite the dangers they face, Afghan Christians refuse to give in to the fear that they will be found out. “If I am afraid I will never receive Jesus,” said Abdullah.
The Jawa Report is keeping vigil over these and other forgotten hostages of the jihadis.
Instead of questioning the zeal of head-chopping Muslim fanatics, some Koreans are questioning the “evangelical zeal” of peaceful Christian missionairies:
The kidnapping of 23 Korean church volunteers in Afghanistan has raised questions in South Korea over whether the country’s evangelical Christian groups may be too zealous in sending missionaries overseas.
There are an estimated 17,000 South Korean Christian missionaries abroad, the largest contingent after those from the United States, with many of them in volatile regions. Several major dailies questioned why the church that sent the volunteers to Afghanistan ignored government warnings of the risk of conflict with the Islamic militarist Taliban.
“Religious groups should realise once and for all that dangerous missionary and volunteer activities in Islamic countries including Afghanistan not only harm Korea’s national objectives, but also put other Koreans under a tremendous amount of duress,” the right-leaning Chosun Ilbo newspaper said in an editorial on Monday.
The Saemmul church from which the kidnapped Koreans were dispatched is relatively moderate and its missions abroad have focused on volunteer medical and humanitarian work, people in the Christian community say.
As of 8:30am, there is nothing on the front page of the Human Rights Watch website about the plight of the South Korean Christian volunteers. Instead, the lead story is an article lambasting U.S. mandatory deportation laws regarding convicted criminal aliens. I kid you not.
Update: Reader Ken writes that he lived in Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan “for most of 2002 and the Christian Charity there is called ‘Samaritan’s Purse’ based in North Carolina. They did wonderful things with very few resources unlike much better-funded organizations like ‘Save the Children.’ I am not surprised to hear they’ve converted 100 Muslims to Christianity as they simply do good things everyday. They give out shoes and food to the endless orphans abandoned by Islam to the backdrop of their revered ‘Blue Mosque.’ I specifically remember ‘Nina’ bravely walking through the streets of MeS (that what we called Mazar-i-Sharif) minus even her head scarf. Men glared at her but she was very strong and carried herself with the full knowledge men can only kill her body but not her spirit.”
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- The TIW Blog » Blog Archive » Christians don't matter to American Media
- Pierre Legrand’s Pink Flamingo Bar » The One Sure Way of Calming the Bloody Borders of Islam is to Convert Them!!! Coulter right again.
- Remember Those In Chains | Adam's Blog
- Pray Brothers « The Ramblings of Mathaytace Christou
- Jesus is Lord, A Worshipping Christian’s Blog » Blog Archive » Taliban Hostage Deadline Looms: South Korean Christians Face Death
- Taliban Hostage Deadline Looms: South Korean Christians Face Death | JesusMySavior
- Hot Air » Blog Archive » Taliban holds 23 SKorean Christians hostage
- Does Anyone Agree? » Blog Archive » Front Page News...
- Thoughts Of A Conservative Christian Taliban hostage deadline looms: South Korean Christians face death «
- Bill's Bites
- South Korean Christians Held By Taliban « Living Word Church of God
- Taliban holds 23 Christians hostage; threatens to cut off their heads - The Liberty Lounge Political Forums
- Death Threatened For 22 South Koreans Held For Ransom By Taliban « BUUUUURRRRNING HOT
- Hostage Crisis Update: If Missionaries Die, America is to Blame at ROK Drop
- Taliban holds 23 Christians hostage; threatens to cut off their heads - Page 2 - The Liberty Lounge Political Forums
- THE MIDNIGHT SUN » Blog Archive » ANOTHER KOREAN HOSTAGE SLAUGHTER
Human Rights Watch has no interest in Christian Missionaries. It goes against everything they believe in. Sure, the christians were there as medical workers… but I’m sure they were secretly converting muslims. And heaven knows THAT can’t be allowed.
The MSM has long written off any christian missionaries from any country as being wackos who deserve what they got.
Why are you (MM) not surprised? I thought we finished off the Taliban, oh wait, I forgot: We cut and ran and didn’t stay the course in Afghanistan and diverted them to the neo-con misadventure in Iraq. Don’t you get it, Saddam put a death threat on the President’s dad–where are your prorities?
The difference is Al Quedia and the Taliban were responsible for 9/11, Iraq was an al Quedia enemy. Isn’t that why we invaded Mexico after Pearl Harbor?
Ah, yes, Islam…the “religion of peace” at work.
Well I thought that my response to Dean Barnett would be left there for a while at least. I guess I thought wrong. RVN troops “spit” on again. Will I now be blocked?
I wasn’t going to do so, but now I will have to post it at some liberal blog.
It’s sad that the NFL guy with pit bull fights gets more play than the medical workers. The terrorist must be pissed about this. If one assumes the Iraq war was a mistake, one would have to assume, that the press is partly responsible, they didn’t do their job before the Iraq war to prove President Bush was wrong. They make the same mistakes now. They refuse to report on this hostage situation, so they can portray there is no global war on terror. It’s sad that their political beliefs out way journalistic moral obligation to report the news.
Feralcat, I suggest you re-read the terms of use regarding off-topic comments. This is a thread about the kidnapped South Korean Christian hostages. If you have issues with Dean Barnett, take it up with him or get your own blog.
Thank you.
MikeB:
As a liberal, who are supposed to have open hearts and open minds, care for humanity, decry the alleged violation of human rights such as ( according to you ) Gitmo, Abu Gharaib, etc.,
doesn’t it bother you in the least that an international human rights group cares not the least little bit about these South Korean innocents?
Apparently, it’s more important to use this situation as a political point, rather than condemn those that have committed this wrong and those that refuse to highlight it.
Now that I think of it - that is modern day liberalism. Ignore the perpetrators - scold the victims and those who defend them.
Understood Michelle. I will have it ready if there is ever another thread about him here then so that it will be on topic then. I could have posted it at his Hugh Hewitt blog, but I am pretty sure that he would just delete it. I do not have my own blog, but I have access to a lot. I will get busy later today.
Thank you.
This is the first I have heard of this situation, “Taliban hostage deadline looms: South Korean Christians face death.”
If these hostages were Iraqis in Abu Ghraib, sodomites, terrorists in Gitmo, peace activists, illegal aliens, child molesters, or similar, this story would have been all we heard for the last couple weeks!
How sick are the MSM? From the look of this, they’re terminally ill!
Ron C #10 -
Terminally ill would mean they’re dying… while their ratings may be low, unfortunately, I don’t see their kind being extinct for a while.
Chronically, selectively blind and deaf would be my interpretation.
It’s pathetic. Other than sites like this, and a bit on FOX, the media goes out of it’s way to minimize what true islam is really about. Mark my words, the time will come in this country when this gutter “religion” will have to be banned and it’s followers interned or deported. Read the ko-ran and try to explain how this is not simply a make-war-cult-playbook for the primitive. God bless and save those S Koreans…
If the Islamo Fascists do carry out their intentions on those kids from S. Korea, why shouldn’t serious options be considered and implemented? Forget Pakistan’s northwest region. We’d only be speeding up the inevitable. I shudder to think how much more weak we’ll become if Shrillary or Obama take the controls in DC.
No surprise about “Human Rights Watch.” They traded in whatever credibility they might’ve had a long time ago for an anti-American schtick. Easy to pound on the Americans; the Taliban, however, might hit them back.
As far as the hostages are concerned, I have to wonder about what kind of security they did/did not have. Especially given that they seem to have been working in a location that the Taliban had access to.
I hope that this situation turns out OK in the end. Not optimistic about that, though. If the Taliban are true to their 7th Century ways, then:
1. The prisoners will be offered a chance to convert; if they do not convert, then:
2. The five males will be beheaded.
3. The eighteen females will get parceled out as slaves/concubines.
We’ll see.
I have to admit - I’ve read the words about this story, but just now really looked at the picture, not just glossed over it.
As upset as I was over the pure description of this situation - seeing the faces of those young, Christian kids, who’ve travelled to a warring nation to try to bring peace and the word of their faith to others, and are now being persecuted for it, only angers me more.
Not only at their terrorist captors, but at the MSM, the “human rights” opportunists, and any others who would otherwise be decrying a similar situation if, as Bruce #9 stated it were happening to Muslims, terrorists, illegal aliens, or others.
What a crock that HRC is! From the article on deporting immigrant criminals:
““How do you explain to a child that her father has been sent thousands of miles away and can never come home simply because he forged a check?””
How about telling her that forgery is a crime and if you do it, you get punished?
I really hope these Korean hostages have a happy end to this crisis. It is amazing how little is covered about these situations.
My God I hope this stirs some sense into the pacifist leftists in the Korean gub’ment. The Korean government/military HAS A PAIR, just like the US, but also like the US, they have an enemy within that keeps them from achieving their full potential. My father who was in vietnam said that when the VietCong got word that there were some Korean military alongside the US forces the VietCong splitskies post haste. The VietCong wanted no part of the Koreans. Unbridled, The US, UK, Australia, and South Korea can end this war.
St. Andrew Kim Taegon and the Korean Martyrs, pray for your Korean brothers and sisters in Afghanistan!
St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Lord, please protect your faithful, deliver them from harm, and give them strength of faith and courage.
Forgive those who seek to destroy them, and give all Christians a stout heart to defeat the enemy that seeks to destroy us.
Human Rights Watch? When? Where? Just another dysfunctional group of loudmouths…..when they choose. Worthless….something like the U.N.
Tuesday Greetings Mrs. Malkin and loyal community. Many dear thanks for your efforts to draw attention to the plight of the 23 missionaries from southern Korea in Afghanistan. If ever good and evil are so sharply juxtaposed, here is an example, and yet as you needfully note, the more established media entities, for their underlying ideological or philosophical reasons, choose not to follow the matter closely. In your piece it is also noted that the (south) Korean missionary effort abroad is second only to that coming from the USA. Indeed, of those based in the USA, a goodly number are of Korean origin. Bethel Korean Church in Irvine, California has an extensive missionary program around the world, though thankfully (if I may be so selfish) none as yet in Afghanistan. Just as brave, hard-working and exemplary American and Canadian missionaries brought the Good News and medical help to Korea in the 19th and 20th centuries, so in their turn Korean people seek to give comfort to others. Thank you again for your efforts to shine light at this dark moment.
Islam is not a torch, as has been claimed, but an extinguisher.
Conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people, it was-and
it remains-incapable of adapting itself to civilization. Wherever it
has dominated, it has broken the impulse towards progress and checked
the evolution of society.
- Andre Servier
The only good muslims are the apostates.
“We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some
of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were
taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his
messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all
sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116).
But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief
that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a
religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind
and nothing but lies and deceits.”
- Muslim apostates
Interesting posts, Feralcat.
The one thing that struck me is that if a Christian holds those same strict & focused beliefs - he’s labeled, by the left, as a zealot or a member of the far right evangelical conservative base.
And, therefore, dangerous to the American way of life and the political system.
However, those Muslims who hold these radical, strict & focused beliefs are seen as someone who needs protection from the big bad U.S.A. and we should open our arms and hearts to them for they are only practicing their religious rights.
Sad commentary.
Has President Karzai had any comments about this? Is the Afghan government attempting to rescue these Christians? I am sure there may be a lot going on behind the media’s lens for a resolution, at least I hope so.
Winston Churchill correctly observed, “The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism.” Nothing has changed since the beginning of this religion—convert or die.
I am praying for protection and freedom for these missionaries. May God bless them and protect them.
Meanwhile, I have a dumbass friend who just put one of those “COEXIST” bumperstickers on her car. You know, the one with the letters made up of symbols of all the major world religions, implying that they’re all equivalent (equally evil, I suppose). I refuse to ride with her and she’s “hurt” by my “close-mindedness.”
Pah.
jrlingreenbay, there is a certain “paradox” here. The more like Christ a Christian is the better person he likely is. The more like Mohammad a Muslim is
the worse person he likely is. So I guess we should all want Christians
to be good at being Christians and Muslims to be poor at being Muslims.
Frankly the best Muslims seem to be those who are not very good at
being Muslims.
I think that Islam is anything but ROP (Religion of Peace). I think
that it is in fact basically evil. The more faithfully a Muslim adheres to
Islam the worse a person he is. The best Muslim people are those who
do not adhere to Islam very well (”Cafeteria Muslims”).
I will admit, I am not an expert on Islam. Therefore, I am very careful not to ‘blanket’ Islam & Muslims with statements about ‘all Muslims’ or ‘all of Islam’.
I stick to what I see - and that is the radical Islamists / fundamentalists who commit acts of violence & terrorism.
HeatherRadish, I am an atheist, so I can judge religions without any “dog in the fight”.
Christianity - good.
Islam - bad.
feralcat, I tend to agree with you.
I know a few people of a Muslim background who don’t wear the hijab, don’t pray regularly, and loosely observe other tenets of Islam. They are some of the more level-headed, kind, and easy going people I know and I have no problem with them whatsoever.
Whenever I talk about Islam as a dangerous religion, I refer to those who murder it its name, require all conform to Islamic beliefs, and wish to destroy the West as well as those supposedly “moderate” Muslims who say and do nothing. They deserve no less that the harshest scrutiny.
jrlingreenbay said:
I will admit, I am not an expert on Islam. Therefore, I am very careful not to ‘blanket’ Islam & Muslims with statements about ‘all Muslims’ or ‘all of Islam’.
I stick to what I see - and that is the radical Islamists / fundamentalists who commit acts of violence & terrorism.
I used to know a man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.
“Very few people were true Nazis” he said, “but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”
We are told again and again by “experts” and “talking heads” that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may conceivable be true, it is entirely
irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant
to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe
in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority” and it is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China ’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
“Peace-loving” Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
“Peace-loving” Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
As for us who watch it all unfold; we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
- Carolyn
Placed in that context - it raises some serious considerations, and does make a very valid point.
How many times has the question been raised here - “Where are the voices of the ‘moderate’ Muslim community?”
We see the violence and the danger from these radicals of Islam, but the silence is deafening from member of their own faith - albeit not as fanatical.
Either their fear, or their ignorance, is a factor in allowing this blindness our country is in the midst of to continue.
If Muslims themselves raised their voices in defiance of their Radical brethren - PERHAPS ( and I’m skeptical even of this ) - the MSM would take notice and place a light of truth on what really is happening.
Moderate Muslims will not be able to wrest control of the agenda for
several reasons. First of all, Mohammed, the Messenger of Allah’s
eternal word, was not moderate. No moderate can legitimately tell another
Muslim to stop doing the extremist things Mohammed himself did. Also, the
Koran condones violence and coercion to further the Islamic agenda.
People whom we call moderates are labeled hypocrites by Allah Himself
in the Qur’an. Moderates will always lose the argument because, as
ex-Muslim author Ibn Warraq says, “There may be moderates in Islam but
Islam itself is not moderate.”
Islamic expert Daniel Pipes and others estimate ten percent of the
Islamic world to be militant. In 1933 when the Nazi party took control of
Germany it had 2 million members, comprising only three percent of
Germany’s sixty-six million citizens. A tiny minority of extremists can
control a vast number of moderates, making them irrelevant.
Placing hope in ‘The Moderate Muslim’ is like searching for
unicorns in the forest.
- A_Plague_on_Both_Houses
The lack of coverage can be summed up in one word:
Christians
jrl said:
How many times has the question been raised here - “Where are the voices of the ‘moderate’ Muslim community?”
The same BS is happening here in the States with Gangbangers.
My thoughts and prayers are with the Hostages rescue or safe return.
The Korean Christians threatened with death by the Taliban won’t be covered until the media figure out how it’s Bush’s fault. Stories that make our enemies look bad undermines the liberal media narrative.
I think you’ll find that the majority of the “moderate” Muslims are older and the radicals are, largely, the youth and younger Muslims.
Which means, naturally, this will be a long battle and one - as MM has pointed out - we’re not preparing our children for at all.
I have to agree with MikeB. It is a neo-con misadventure. I pray to God that the Christians come out safe.
It’s bizzare how this story hasn’t gotten more coverage. 23 people! About to be killed! Whatever their religion, whoever their captors, this seems like a pretty big story. Or am I missing something?
But at the same time, media coverage is precisely what the captors are after. They are trying to send a message to the missionaries: stay off our turf. And even if they did give this story more coverage, what can any of us do about it?
Stories like this illustrate how all the MSM outlets, regardless of political bent, are controlled by the same, small cadre of “deciders”. I mean, you would think at least one of them would pick up on this story. Fox News’s top story today? Lindsay Lohan - busted again.
I don’t think the lack of coverage is necessarily because it might portray Islam in a negative light. It’s just not a very “sexy” story. Pretty sad if you think about it.
National Enquirer Television,
It’s Sickening.
Geez, unreal now there’s a Nat Q reporter on fox….lmao!
May my brothers be strong tonight. If Our Lord Jesus does not Deliever them from the hands of the enemy, may the Holy Spirit give them the strength to stand for Christ in the face of Death.
Wise words my atheist friend.
We did go into Germany after the Pearl Harbor attack and I don’t recall the Germans declaring war on us or attacking us first. You might want to pick up a history book now and then.
Give me a break. We have been having problems with radical Islam long before the “neo-con misadventure” as you want to call it. Ever hear of Tripoli? The U.S. Marines had to go in and take care of the piracy then. Radical Islamists were kidnapping Christian Missionaries for ransom and killing them (sound familiar?). They were boarding ships as pirates. This all before neo-cons existed and we were just a country that knew how to come together as a country. Sadly, we now blame ourselves instead of the evil men do to men.
I read Mark Twain’s “Innocents Abroad” last year which details his trip to the Mediterranean and the Middle East in the mid-1800’s. Radical Islam was pretty much the same back then. It’s nothing new and nothing caused by the Iraq War.
And Isalmic proselytisation in Korea, is that any sort of problem?
We all feel terrible about innocent people being kidnapped and/or threatened with slaughter. It is wrong, it is terrible and the media should cover it. Everyone should also be free to practice any religion they wish.
Having said that, I have to ask: Shouldn’t Christianity and all religions be out of the “missionary” business. Why try to convert people to your faith? The Taliban has nothing better to do than attack infidels.
There are so many problems in the world as it is, fighting over which god one believes in should be at the bottom of everyone’s agenda.
Amen and Amen
How is it a “neo-con” misadventure to take apart the regime (Saddam’s) who was a harbinger of Abu Nidal, and a financeer of terrorist activities ( both facts ), as well as someone who consistently disregarded UN resolutions after the first Gulf War for years - with no recourse by the UN or the US.
People on the left like to neglect the fact that this is not just a war on Al Qaida - it is a war on Terrorism. Al Qaida is a faction in that war. Osama bin Laden is a factor in that war. Saddam Hussein and his support of terrorism, was a factor in this war.
Iraq is but a part of the big picture. Liberals like to say it is a distraction - but it isn’t. It’s part of the whole.
Germany (and Italy) declared war on the U.S. four days after Pearl Harbor.
And to keep on topic, my thoughts are with the Korean hostages, though I don’t have much optimism for them given the previous treatment of prisoners by these barbarians.
Foxforce, the difference between declaring war on Germany after Pearl Harbor and Iraq after 9/11 is Japan and German were allied Axis Powers, Saddam and Osama were enemies. Saddam was a secular leader who hated theocrats like OBL. OBL, for his part, hated wordly leaders like Saddam. Not to mention the fact that Germany, which conquered most of Europe, was a major threat to the Western World, while Saddam was weakened after the Kuwait and Iran wars, had no weapons of mass destruction (despite wanting his neighbors to think so), and by our no fly zone.
On my soap box: Saddam was an enemy of radical Islam, see above. He was a secular leader who didn’t want religious fanatics like OBL to muck things up. You, MM, et al. too often lumb all Muslims together.
Speaking as a Jesus freak and a missionary I would gladly leave Haiti if the world stepped up and helped the poorest country in the west. She sits 700 miles off of our coast and we do nothing to help. So MikeB, what are you doing to help besides complaining about what my wife and I and thousands of others bring to that nation? It is the hard work of thousands of missionaries that bring relief to the impoverished nation. We should leave because MikeB says we should? Your comment is beyond sad.
MikeB #47 stated:
“Having said that, I have to ask: Shouldn’t Christianity and all religions be out of the “missionary” business. Why try to convert people to your faith? The Taliban has nothing better to do than attack infidels.”
Most religions, as part of their faith, ask their followers to spread the word of their faith to others.
As a Christian - you are asked by God to spread his teachings to those who have not heard them. Hence, missionaries travel around the world, speaking the word of their God.
Radical Islamists, in the same vein, travel where they can to spread the word of Allah & Mohammed, however, they do not tolerate resistance to their ‘truths’ and choose to torture & kill those who disbelieve.
Much as in years past, the Inquisition did for the Catholic Church. Which as many on the left are happy to tell you, was barbaric and a sign that the Christian believers are no different or even worse than followers of Islam.
The difference is, the Catholic Church and modern day Christianity is not pursuing a crusade of torture and death, such as the current radical Islamists are.
You know MikeB, I have to wonder sometimes if you’re deliberately being ignorant or whether you really are an empty headed goof.
As an aside, Pearl Harbor is actually a very apt simile to Iraq. The Japanese bombed us but who did we concentrate on beating first?
If you said Germany, you win a cookie. Approximately 70% of all men and material during the first 3 years of the war went to the European theater. By your lights, we shouldn’t even have declared war on Germany. What did they ever do to us? Sink a couple of destroyers, yeah. But is that any reason to get ourselves into a WORLD WAR?
And Germany couldn’t even bomb northern England after the Brits destroyed their northern squadrons launching out of Norway. How could Germany - with no long range bomber - ever be a threat to the United States? It would have been better to leave Hitler alone and go after the Japs according to your illogic.
As to the substance of your criticism, the Taliban was shattered by our military. They were allowed to reconstitute themselves by a weak, vacillating President of Pakistan.
We could not attack them because of their sanctuaries in Pakistan. If we had, you and your idiot liberal friends would have been screaming bloody murder for Bush violating Pakistan’s sovreignty.
Now. Consider this a troll warning. You are not contributing anything of substance to any discussion you take part in. You parrot liberal talking points in a brainless, thoughtless manner while your sarcastic tone insults other commenters. Either decide the address specific points made by either MM or another commenter with some original thinking or you will be going someplace else where parroting lefty talking points will get you all sorts of verbal pats on the back.
This is an outright lie. Read my posts. I have said “radical Islam” every time.
*hugs jrlingreenbay and hands over his box of thin mints
To Soap Box, I respect any person who is trying to help poor people, especially Haitians and Missionaries have certainly done a lot of good in this world. So, I apologize if I offended you. If I were a Christian Evangelist, I would go to places like Haiti and Africa, rather than the Muslim world.
Also, Rick, I have never seen a “talking point” in my life. Maybe, MM or you can lend me a sample. But, turning to the WWII-9/11 comparison, I supported attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan as they were united with al Quida, as opposed to Saddam. By the same token, I would attack Germany as they were united (at least in 1941) with Japan. And, I think it is not correct to blame Pakistan for the resurgence of the Taliban. We should have “finished the job” there before engaging in a “war of choice” with Iraq.
Granted, the age of Drudge is coming to an end, but as of 12:48pm Central, he’s headlining with Lindsey Lohan and does not have Korean hostages listed anywhere on his site.
On-my-soap-box, I pray for my Christian brothers to come out safe. I am an anti-war conservative. I OPPOSE this war. It is a neo-con misadventure. I also know sooner or later peace maybe taken from the West and Christian persecution HERE may begin some time in the future. I oppose Islam, but if I must be persecuted here in America for Christ, so be it. I’m gearing myself for death for Christ if it comes to America.
MikeB
Offended by you? Not hardly. Even as offensive as you try to be by attacking MM and even me today I can hardly be offended by words from a stranger.
To be honest, my only missionary job concerning you is praying for you. Be thankful I am not a radical Islamist who, after being unsuccessful at converting you, I would have to kill you.
I wish we knew more of what is happening in efforts to get these Missionaries freed or hear good new’s of a rescue, are there any reporters in the region covering this?
Is it me or do I remember that almost all of the Dimocrats voted to go to that “neo-con misadventure”? That would make it almost unanimous – we are all neo-cons.
A lot of selective amnesia going on about the lead-up to the Iraq War and who Saddam was. Enemy of radical Islam? LOL! And yet he sponsored suicide bombers regularly.
On-my-soap-box, I know nothing about democrats and what you are saying. I do know it is a neo-con misadventure.
Sorry, not a ‘neo-con misadventure’. Sounds cute though.
It’s a tough, bloody war on terror that would have taken place now, or later. But make no mistake that at some point it would have happened.
Still a media blackout on Yahoo! Middle East News as of 1:27pm
Simply stunning.
“An AP Television News reporter saw 100 to 150 villagers demonstrating. “We want the Taliban to release them, because they are guests,” Zaman said. “They are in Afghanistan and we want them to be safe.”
This is encouraging.
Thanks for the update, the MSM is like watching “Teen Beat”
“By the same token, I would attack Germany as they were united (at least in 1941) with Japan.”
How is that different that going after Saddam Hussein, a supporter of terrorism, in a war on terrorists?
Again - Al Qaida / Bin Laden are only a part of the equation when looking at terrorism as a whole.
MikeB - “But, turning to the WWII-9/11 comparison, I supported attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan as they were united with al Quida, as opposed to Saddam. And, I think it is not correct to blame Pakistan for the resurgence of the Taliban. We should have “finished the job” there before engaging in a “war of choice” with Iraq.
“The NIE conclusions reported in the U.S. press were extremely explicit that the possible renewed threat to the U.S. mainland was posed by the core al-Qaida organization [not al-Qaida in Iraq] , the direct successor and survivors of the group led by Osama bin Laden that carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, atrocities that killed more than 2,800 Americans. This group, the NIE made clear, has reconstituted itself within a very specific geographical location — along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and on both sides of it.
The U.S. military and security services have certainly not been blind to this development, and they have not neglected either operational activities or intelligence gathering there. The war against the resurgent Taliban continues in Afghanistan, and as well as the United States, major, longstanding allies like Britain, Germany, Canada and Australia have significant military or support contingents operating there to this day.
But for the U.S. military and intelligence services, the hard, ineluctable truth remains that the scale of resources devoted to Afghanistan and neighboring areas over the past four and half years has been minuscule compared with those that remain bogged down in Iraq.
Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., the chairman of the Armed Services Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives, recognized last week when he defended his legislative proposal — certain to be vetoed by U.S. President George W. Bush — to withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq according to a fixed timetable on the grounds that U.S. military resources urgently needed to be redirected and focused against al-Qaida instead.
The latest NIE therefore confirms the wisdom of those old truths of war as formulated by Frederick of Prussia and reiterated by Marshall and Alanbrooke. The opening of the Iraq theater of war in March 2003 was an enormous distraction from remaining focused on the guilty parties who actually perpetrated the Sept. 11 atrocities — the core al-Qaida movement in Afghanistan.
And as the Sunni insurgency escalated and continued over the past four years, confounding the predictions of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his top lieutenants who never had anticipated it would do so, the U.S. armed forces were forced to remain primarily committed to bloody, exhausting and unending operations in Iraq.
As a result, the primary focus of the U.S. “war on terror” was diffused in Iraq while the core primary threat to the American people, the original al-Qaida group in Afghanistan, was able to survive and rebuild its strength. This is the underlying message of the NIE conclusions reported this week.”
- Martin Sieff
“One must be as a Lion to scare off Wolfs, but as a Fox to avoid Traps.”
- Niccolo Machiavelli
Agreed. What’s next. It is a bumper sticker.
ummm, make up your mind?
I agree with ammonrae on this one. It is a neo-con misadventure and that is being charitable.
Don’t let “hatred” for liberals or the rational true conservatives blind you to the profound folly that is Bush’s tarbaby Iraq.
America should fight…..but as a Lion and a Fox, not as a Lion and a Dodo Bush Bird. Iraq is not where victory over Islamic aggression will be found. The only thing to be found in Iraq is the degradation of our Army and declining American support.
I’m getting frustrated with Iraq, too.
I’m sick of the political posturing, the game playing, and the all-in-all laziness of our politicians in identifying the threat of radical Islam, eradicating it, and keeping our foes on the offensive.
This goes for both Bush and the Democrats. Although I can’t go as far as to say the Democrats - once we’re out of Iraq - will actually support such action.
After all, their votes against John Doe (with a few notable exceptions) and John Edward’s insistence that the war is only a “bumper sticker” make me believe they’d drop Iraq and stop pursuing terrorist altogether.
Get your act together and start fighting the enemy or the next time, it may be 23 Americans, in America, who are the hostages.
Sorry, that should be “keeping our foes on the DEFENSIVE”…
I am so pleased with some of the comments here. Can it be that some of you are seeing the light–the War in Iraq is: (1) a diversion and distraction from the War on Terror; (2) Al Quida in Iraq came into being after 9/11 and was not responsible for 9/11 by any stretch; (3) a “war of choice” and not necessity.
MM to you hear us?
Who were the notable exceptions?
Bwaaaahaaa. Go back and look at the vote.
As far as the degradation of our brave fighting forces (Marines, Navy and the Reserves included), most of that degradation is from people at home and from the left. When they hear the negative news reports from home and what the politicians are doing, do you not know how degrading that is to them? Go read some of their blogs and it will not take you long to see how angry they are with the crap dealt to them from home.
Declining American support? When all the media does is report American body counts and neglects the good our great men and women are doing for the people of Iraq, support will decline. If I fault Bush for anything it is for not getting out the good news of the work we have done and the number of lives saved by attacks thwarted.
“Maybe if the kidnapped South Korean Christian missionaries were journalists or drunken celebrities, the story would get some attention.”
Sad and True………
#78
Our Army is being degraded. And to what end? Bush’s delusion of “George Bush said on May 26, 2007 “We are determined to help them secure their liberty. Our troops are helping them build democracies that respect the rights of their people, uphold the rule of law, and fight extremists alongside America in the war on terror”? Bush has gone off his toot over Iraq.
Reading some of the sis-boom-bah, you fight and I will hold your coat, blogs like Hewitt’s is not where to go if you seek the truth. They troops are mad about the crap dealt to them by Commander Guy. You may need to be a member of the “club” to know the truth.
(1) No, the War In Iraq was started because Saddam Hussein refused to comply with international weapons inspectors - hardly “a distraction or diversion,” especially so soon after 9/11. When trying to take care of it via the UN, those countries embroiled in the Oil For Food scandal blocked us, forcing us to go it alone.
(2) No one on this board has ever implied AlQaeda in Iraq was reponsible for 9/11. However, they are still enemies of the US directly related to the War on Terror.
(3). See #1. When a brutal dictator already known to use chemical weapons starts playing games with international inspections, the only choice was to step up or back down. The US does not back down nor should it. And today, five years later, the only choice is to help the Iraqis or abandon them. I am not for abandoning them.
MikeB #76 stated:
” I am so pleased with some of the comments here. Can it be that some of you are seeing the light–the War in Iraq is: (1) a diversion and distraction from the War on Terror; (2) Al Quida in Iraq came into being after 9/11 and was not responsible for 9/11 by any stretch; (3) a “war of choice” and not necessity.
MM to you hear us?”
#1 - What part of anything I, for one, have mentioned do you not understand about Saddam Hussein being a supporter of terrorism? He offered bounties to families of suicide bombers, Iraq was a safe-haven and supporter for organizations such as:
- The Abu Nidal organization
- Ansar al-Islam
- Arab Liberation Front
- Hamas
- Kurdistan Workers Party
- PLO
( For more information, see: http://www.husseinandterror.com/ )
#2: Who said Al Qaida in Iraq was responsible for 9-11? They weren’t. However, they have alligned themselves with Al Qaida, and have the same goals.
Do you honestly think that members of Al Qaida in Iraq were peaceful, productive members of society before this?
#3: Every war is a war of choice. We didn’t have to go to Korea. Nor Viet Nam, nor Germany, nor Japan - we could have not fought back.
The fact is that after 9-11, this country, this President, and this Congress ( Democrat & Republican ) voted to join a battle against TERRORISM. In war, you deal with the problems you encounter and you stop problems before they occur where you can.
Saddam Hussein was in violation of the UN, was a supporter and harbinger of terrorists and terrorist activities. He lied about his capabilities - and the whole world believed him - even most of the Dems who you support.
The fact is - we’re there - we’re fighting - and to say, “Let’s go home” before we do everything we can to win is a chicken$#!& way of running a military. It’s also a disservice to the military to hamstring them and not let them do what they’re trained to do.
bipartisancomplainer - “And today, five years later, the only choice is to help the Iraqis or abandon them. I am not for abandoning them.”
So now the argument has gone full circle, from doing what is our nations interest to doing what is in Iraq’s.
What will it be tomorrow?
Going into Iraq was in our nation’s best interest. Abandoning what we started because it got hard is not.
It’s the same argument, Feralcat.
By helping the Iraqis and allowing them to form a stable, democratically based government, it only helps the US by giving us an Ally in the region.
I forgot which Dem said it last night, perhaps it was Richardson - but he wants to pull ALL troops out by the end of the year - no residuals - no one.
Why can’t someone follow up on those idiot responses with :”And what happens to the Iraqi’s who’ve stood with us, risked their lives by voting, risked their lives by forming a government, risked their lives by trying to move forward and build a nation?”
There’s never an answer for that because not one of the Dems has been asked that and not skirted the issue.
jrlingreenbay - “It’s also a disservice to the military to hamstring them and not let them do what they’re trained to do.
Our combat arms are not trained to try to do Islamic nation building. They are trained to kill people and break things.
The current surge strategy as designed by Freddy Kagan in the American
Enterprise Institute is designed to buy time for the Iraqi government
to stand on its own; to pass reconciliation legislation amongst the
Sunni/Shia/Kurd as well as sharing oil revenues; the same Iraqi government
that plans to take the entire month of August off because it is “too
hot” and they are “tired” and continues dithering governing their
own sovereign country while America does its heavy lifting.
The threat to America is AQ (The real AQ, not AQ of Mesopotamia, aka AQ
in Iraq, aka AQI). America must refocus its efforts on capturing and
destroying AQ, not the impossible dream of nation building between
Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq.
feralcat - Our combat arms are not trained to try to do Islamic nation building. They are trained to kill people and break things.
I agree 100%. The problem is the rules of engagement, like if someone is shooting at you from a Mosque, you can’t shoot back. THAT kind of hamstringing. You cannot fight a politically correct war.
War is hell - if done right. If done wrong - it’s worse.
jrlingreenbay said:
It’s the same argument, Feralcat.
By helping the Iraqis and allowing them to form a stable, democratically based government, it only helps the US by giving us an Ally in the region.
It would be easier to build a starship from mud and straw.
Islam is enshrined in the Iraqi constitution. Islam is incompatable with democracy and human rights. As the New York City cab driver said, “You can’t get there from here.”
Resolving whether Mohammed’s rightful successor was Umar or Ali is not Americas job nor is it in Americas interest.
America needs to free up resources to capture and destroy AlQ, not “nation build” in Islamic Shiite and Islamic Sunni Iraq.
jrlingreenbay said - “The problem is the rules of engagement, like if someone is shooting at you from a Mosque, you can’t shoot back. THAT kind of hamstringing. You cannot fight a politically correct war.”
You can not “destroy the village to save it” though as that does not work very well either. BTW, the ROE are not as restrictive as you might think. Better judged by 12 than carried by six is still operative.
Ok, feralcat….so we leave….
Then what? I’ll ask you what I said should be asked of all the Dems/Libs with this same idea:
What happens to the Iraqi’s after we leave?
What happens when the bloodshed gets worse?
What happens when Iraq turns into Darfur or VietNam/Cambodia?
Gots to go now.
Later friend.
I really gots to go now and can not find where I put “my plan” right now.
I did find someone else’s “plan” that I had saved. I do not fully agree with it, but I think that it is “food for thought”. See you later.
On supporting this war - it’s won already. What’s our remaining
goal(s)?
WMD - check
Odai/Qusay - check
Saddam Hussein - check
Zarqawi - check
Elections - check
Democracy? They have a new constitution - not based on our values, but
theirs - namely shariah. Under this set-up, Chaldeans and Assyrian
Christians are fleeing to (of all places) Syria (while the US plans to take
in 7000 Iraqi Muslim refugees). Which of them - Shia or Sunni - are
pro-US? Shia? They are mainly supporting Iran and Hizbullah. Sunni? They
are either supporting Saddam’s Baathists, or Zarqawi’s al Qaeda. Kurds?
Sure, they are the most grateful of the lot, but we aren’t supporting
a separate Kurdistan. So which of the people who we are trying to
support actually deserves it?
And once again - what’s our mission _now_? Resolving whether Mohammed’s
rightful successor was Umar or Ali? If there is a civil war between
pro-Hizbullah Shia and pro-Ikhwan Sunni, whose side should we pick?
Should we even stop such a fight, were it to break out?
Remember the 80’s war between Iran and Iraq? Did we end up any worse
off due to millions of fanatics on both sides getting killed? Remember
the 60’s proxy war between Egypt and Saudi Arabia in Yemen? Was that a
good or bad thing for Infidels?
Bottom line - if there is an internecine war between Infidel hating
Muslims and Infidel hating Muslims, why is that a bad thing for Infidels?
If two or more of our enemies are busy destroying each other, why
should we even bother stopping them?
Want to know my exit strategy for Iraq? Exit is the strategy. What will
result is a civil war between Shia and Sunni. Initially, it’ll be in
Iraq. Then, inshallah, it’ll spread to Saudi Arabia, where the Shia in
al Hasa province can rebel. Let all that Saudi cash that funds
madrassahs and CAIR in the US be diverted towards containing their restive Shia,
and in the meantime, let Iran’s cash flow to their science project and
Hizbullah be diverted towards encouraging Shia rebellions in Iraq,
Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Bahrein. Once we have these 2 US hating groups at
each others throats, we can then keep arming at a low level either side
so that neither gains the upper hand.
Note that we do not have a dog in this fight. The only dog we have is
that fight itself.
Feed that dog.
- Infidel Pride
“Better judged by 12 than carried by six is still operative.”
Is that why the Marine who shot the insurgent who ‘appeared’ to be faking death was raked over the coals by the media for weeks?
Is that why the Haditha Marines were called cold-blooded murderers by a former-Marine (no, for him, I’ll say EX-Marine) congressman?
But yet when insurgents murder 30/40/50/100 Iraqis in one shot, it all reverts to “Bush’s War”.
The reason this is allowed to go unnoticed and undealt with is because last night the Seinfeld Network & Seinfeld Party had a Seinfeld Debate about nothing.
Osama was too busy plotting to kill us to watch.
I pray for the safety of these hostages, and that the democrats have cranial-glutial extraction surgery so they can deal with real world problems today, not hypothetical problems 1000 years from now, or past injustices 100 years ago.
http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/the-seinfeld-network-seinfeld-party-had-a-seinfeld-debate/
eric
Feralcat - “Bottom line - if there is an internecine war between Infidel hating Muslims and Infidel hating Muslims, why is that a bad thing for Infidels? If two or more of our enemies are busy destroying each other, why
should we even bother stopping them?”
Are those Iraqis who are not infidel hating Muslims to be slaughtered too?
Your plan seems to indicate so.
But, don’t worry, Feralcat - you’re not the only Liberal who can’t find your plan right now - or ever.
JRL: Your alleged links between Saddam and terror are weak at best and are offered ex post facto. Bush never clamied he wanted to invade and occupy Iraq because they sponsored terrorism. If the U.S. has a policy of invading all countries that sponsor terrorists, why are we not invading Iran (I know that’s on Cheney’s hit list), Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan (before 9/11), all of whom gave more support to terrorist groups than Saddam.
feralcat, helping Iraq is in America’s interest. helping to install a democracy in the middle east will give hope to the moderates in the muslim world and help bring about incremental reform and freedoms to its peoples though not all at once and maybe not for a long time to come, but it will help. this will create stability in the area. certainly you don’t believe stability is not in America’s interests do you? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could just hole ourselves up in fortress America and let the rest of the world just go to hell?! But then we already tried that during WW2 and it didn’t work then either. Eventually we will get sucked into the world’s affairs.
Also, stationing troops on either side of Iran may pressure them even more to abandon their nuclear weapons programs and maybe avoid another world war, this time w