Which of these is a crime in America? Update: Criminal complaint added.
Bumped–originally posted July 29, 2007 @ 22:07
Update: LGF has background about the arresting officer. Allah has more legal analysis based on the complaint. And Christopher Hitchens weighs in:
Before me is a recent report that a student at Pace University in New York City has been arrested for a hate crime in consequence of an alleged dumping of the Quran. Nothing repels me more than the burning or desecration of books, and if, for example, this was a volume from a public or university library, I would hope that its mistreatment would constitute a misdemeanor at the very least. But if I choose to spit on a copy of the writings of Ayn Rand or Karl Marx or James Joyce, that is entirely my business. When I check into a hotel room and send my free and unsolicited copy of the Gideon Bible or the Book of Mormon spinning out of the window, I infringe no law, except perhaps the one concerning litter. Why do we not make this distinction in the case of the Quran? We do so simply out of fear, and because the fanatical believers in that particular holy book have proved time and again that they mean business when it comes to intimidation. Surely that should be to their discredit rather than their credit. Should not the “moderate” imams of On Faith have been asked in direct terms whether they are, or are not, negotiating with a gun on the table?
The Pace University incident becomes even more ludicrous and sinister when it is recalled that Islamists are the current leaders in the global book-burning competition.
Update: Here’s the criminal complaint.
***
A pictorial pop quiz for you. Which of these is a hate crime in America?
A) Submerging a crucifix in a jar of urine.
B) Burning the American flag.
C) Putting a Koran in a toilet.
Each is offensive and tasteless in its own way. But only one is a hate crime in the eyes of the law — C) — and 23-year-old Stanislav Shmulevich of Brooklyn faces jail time for it. He’s a Pace University student arrested on Friday on hate-crime charges after he threw a Koran in a toilet at Pace University on two separate occasions, according to police.
Charles Johnson at LGF has been in contact with Shmulevich. He reports that the student has been charged with two felonies, criminal mischief and aggravated harassment. Allahpundit has a thorough legal review.
Mark Steyn muses about the flushed Koran: “Obviously Mr Shmulevich should have submerged it in his own urine, applied for an NEA grant and offered it to the Whitney Biennial.”
Actually, no. The NEA would have turned Shmulevich in to the police, too. Now, if he had submerged a Bible in urine or coated a Torah in cow dung and submitted it for a federal grant, he’d be sitting pretty–and facing rave New York Times editorials instead of time behind bars.
***
More reax…
Phil Orenstein at The Democracy Project has “been involved over the past year battling the censorship and outrages of the film police at Pace, where the administrators caved in to Muslim Student Association’s pressure and threatened police action against Hillel if they showed the film Obsession.” Orenstein notes the “double standard lurking at Pace, throughout academia and trickling down throughout the body politic where Muslims and certain identity groups get preferential treatment while others are spurned.”
There is no right in a democracy not to be offended although the threats and bullying tactics of CAIR and MSA have forced the hand of Pace administrators and New York’s Police Department to do their sinister bidding.
Andrew Bostom digs deeper:
Western discourse must move well beyond condemnation of clumsy acts of disapproval, such as Koran flushing, and their aggressive prosecution under pressure by Muslim avatars of real hatred, and abettors of murderous jihad terrorism, such as CAIR—to more fundamental and unnerving questions: What role do Koranic injunctions themselves—eternal and beyond criticism (least of all by non-Muslims)—play in inciting “criminal mischief and aggravated mischief”, and much more heinous crimes against humanity, including jihad genocide, and the destruction of non-Muslim religious, cultural, and political institutions?
The Korans Mr. Shmulevich threw in the toilet were school property taken from a “meditation room” on campus. Now I’m not a lawyer and will make no attempt to analyze the legal issues regarding this case. But Allah has the language of the statutes under which Mr. Shmulevich is being charged with a hate crime and to these layman’s eyes, it is perplexing to me why the prosecutor would be charging Mr. Shmulevich under either of these statutes. Instead, it appears to be a case where the prosecutor files more serious charges in hopes the defendant will plead to lesser ones.
Charge him with stealing the Korans, yes. Perhaps even charge him with a misdemeanor for vandalizing school property. But charging the man with two felony counts under dubious circumstances smacks of prosecutorial overkill.
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- Time to stand up America…not to insult Muslims but to defend our First Amendment Rights! | Pierre Legrand's Pink Flamingo Bar
- American Civil Liberties Union Religious Bias « BUUUUURRRRNING HOT
- Sunday Overnight · New York Articles
- Ignorant Americans? « Spontaneous Order
- Sunday Overnight : Weblogs
- Shari’a Law in the US, trumps our own « Toms FlashBacks
- Support Free Speech, Koran Demonstration « Toms FlashBacks
- Political correctness alive and well at Pace U. « Full Metal Cynic
- First Round : The Shot! @ shotpolitics.com
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- Koran flusher charged with felonies! « Crush Liberalism
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- Flush the Koran, do not pass go, go straight to jail? « Volunteer Opinion Journal
- Right Wing Nut House » WHOSE FREEDOM? WHAT IS SPEECH?
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- Flushing our Civilization Down the Toilet « Buttle’s World
- The American Pundit » Blog Archive » The Case of the Koran and the Toilet
- southchild » Blog Archive » Put a book in a toilet, and go to Jail.
- Burn the Flag, Piss on the Cross, but Don’t Flush the Qur’an « TMQ2
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- The Koran Complaint : Weblogs
- TMQ2’s "Flush the Qur’an in Effigy" Protest « TMQ2
- FLUSHING THE KORAN « Texas Hold ‘Em Blogger
- The Evolving Hate Crime Definition | Political Vindication
- Another Day Down The Rabbithole « his vorpal sword
- Pieces of a Whole » Blog Archive » Something foolish this way comes...
- Quranin toilet, Crucifix in a jar of urine, hate crimes? - Political Hotwire
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- Flushing a Koran is not the same as burning a flag « Cowardly political musings…
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- politicalpartypoop.com » Blog Archive » Which of these is a crime in America?
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Heh. I wonder whether the NYT will once again illustrate this controversy with a picture of, say, the Virgin Mary smeared with elephant dung.
I don’t think they’ll be using the graphic you did.
Doesn’t there need to be a (potential) victim for a hate crime to have been commited? This is just stupid. Where’s the ACLU and their defense of the 1st Admendment in this case??? Ah, who cares, I give up, this foundations which formed this great nation are disappearing by the day…
LC: I believe a “hate crime” has to intend to instill fear and/or intimidation in a group of people…which would qualify.
But if any of you think hate crimes laws are used equally, I have one name for you: Mary Stachowicz.
She was a Catholic stabbed repeatedly and with such force by a man that he bent the blade of his hunting knife. She was then stuffed between the floor of the man’s apartment and the funeral home below.
The man accused of her murder is gay, and his lawyer’s defense is that Stachowicz deserved to be murdered because she questioned his lifestyle and drove him to kill her.
Also, punks who defaced Holy Hill in Wisconsin on 6/6/06 were not charged with hate crimes even though they did tons of damage to a sacred place. But, then again, the prosecutors may have felt sympathetic because those morons spray painted “Hail Satin” instead of “Hail Satan”…
To borrow from Animal Farm hate crime legislation merely makes some more equal (and worthy of protection) than others. If you’re white, Christian, and male, hate crimes enhancers will NEVER be applied to someone who hurts and/or murders you because you’re not politically correct enough to warrant it.
Sorry…that first sentence should have said “which would probably qualify this as a hate crime in the eyes of the liberal populace”.
You know, this entire sorry affair is like Alice stepping through the looking glass! Just plain crazy.
This is just insanity.
I’ve been awakened by shot gun blasts where rounds have perforated my mailbox.
I’ve had numerous phone call death threats.
I’ve had my personal property defaced with “Death to Red Niggers” “Kill All Mexicans” “Shut Up! Or Die!” slogans scrawled, painted, and even finger painted with human feces.
The official response by institutions and the Federal Bureau of Investigation was always the same: “Well, was anyone hurt?” End of story. Case closed.
Tossing the Muslim Holy Book into the toilet at worst merely symbolizes what jihadists are doing by using it as a rationale for cutting peoples faces off with piano wire.
At worst it says the perpetrator doesn’t respect the religion of Islam and its practitioners. Oh! The horrors.
“Well,was anyone hurt?”
There’s a good discussion of the hate-crime aspect of this charge at the Allahpundit link posted above.
It’s not really called a “hate crime”; there’s another NY statute that deals with hate crimes and they are usually part of a violent assault. This guy is charged with “aggravated harassment”, which is explained there.
We now have the Hate Crime Law (Thought Law) enforcing the law of our killers.
If the library owned those Korans, Stanislav Shmulevichhe allegedly damaged someone else’s property. Yet, barring some evidence of intent or ability for our courts to mind read, what evidence is there that this was a hate-crime?
Just more inuendo. Where is the proof of those reports, Mr. Hooper? Place them out here, name names, dates, and times so we can examine them. Or is this just more of CAIR’s race baiting, like your equating the ‘John Doe’ passengers CAIR is STILL suing to the KKK the other day when you were on with Tucker Carlson.
Yes Dersu!
Hate Crime = Thought Crime
Political Correctness = Newspeak
Other scary Orwellian concepts:
Blackwhite = “…Loyal willingness to say black is white when Party discipline demands this.” or “Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts.”
Doublethink = “… the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
Orwell was a scary dude, for a self-admitted Socialist! I’m not sure if he was warning us, or prescribing our future fate.
I will say that the impending collapse of America that will become the 2008 election will be nothing short of spectacular. I long for the days of knowing who our enemies were.
Like was said before, it is George Orwell’s Animal Farm in full force. We are all “equal” but some are more equal than others. Here we have the most intolerant of all ideologies, that imposes submission, enslaves and executes women and homosexuals and kills “apostates” who dare to leave this madness, promotes jihad and mass murder of “infidels” and even its own believers, …Yet our own people just lie down and act like these people truly deserve greater consideration than those whom they victimize. All over the world, innocents are being killed and enslaved and intimidated on a daily basis in the name of the same Koran. It deserves the same respect that its believers show to others. None.
Ask yourselves. If a Bible was trashed in Saudi Arabia what would happen to the people that did it? They would be praised as proper followers of the faith. If they killed a Jew, all the better. Then they would really go to “heaven”. And we give these people these considerations. It is insane on so many levels. Our own people have entered an upside down world. It is George Orwell times ten.
Good commentary, all. I’ve thought about 1984 a lot recently too, but I wonder who Big Brother will be?
We have enemies without and within, and they are strong. I hope for a Constitutional Convention in which states will eliminate much of the federal government’s power. I think waking up our slumbering fellow citizens is most important: without a large percentage of the population to actively oppose the changes in our country. Unfortunately, they are brainwashed by most of the media, and their lives are too comfortable and easy for them to take what is happening seriously, or to even realize what is happening.
We need to be Paul Reveres, troops.
This is how sharia creep multiculturalism is taking over America. It’s okay to put a cross in urine, not okay to put a book in the toilet. Footbaths for everybody!
Image: Sasquatch washing his feet in a footbath.
So is this just a hate crime at Pace University or in all of New York. Don’t tell me it applies to the whole U.S.! I’m very tempted now to go out and buy a Koran and practice a little thing called “FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!” Anybody with me???!!!
Just another thought. We can solve the problem of hate crimes against the Koran in the U.S. We simply adopt the same Saudi policy of banning the Bible there and ban the Koran here. Then there can be no hate crime in the U.S. as there would be no Koran here.
If they can do it, so can we.
Michelle what is there to say…I stand around wanting to stage a protest to dare the authorities to arrest us all and you go ahead and put a Koran in a toilet and post it on one of the most powerful sites in the universe. You are definitely my hero!!!
Desecrating a Koran is now a Crime…it’s time fold, spindle and mutilate Koran’s in protest!
With respect to George Orwell, he also wrote, “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”
Legal loophole? I thought it was only considered a “real” Koran if it was written in Arabic? So techinically he did not desecrate a real “holy” Koran right? The picture I’ve seen has English on the cover.
May next point is this: Why does everyone call it a “holy” koran? There is nothing holy about it to me that’s for sure. Something is only holy if the person using it considers it holy. Since I don’t believe in the religion of Islam, there is nothing holy about it. I never see anyone anymore refer to it as the Holy Bible. Just the Bible. I’m just sayin.
I would assume for the same reason everyone says “The Prophet Mohammed” when discussing the founder of Islam.
Which I think is out of a varying mixture of an attempt to be respectful, multi-culti programming, and perhaps sometimes a little bit of fear–if not of violent reprisals, then of the whining of CAIR and their fellows.
Why don’t they then say “Jesus Christ” instead of just “Jesus” when describing the founder of Christianity? Well, there’s a headscratcher.
One simple question … Who did the Koran that was thrown in a toilet belong to? … if it was bought and paid for by, and therefore belonged to, Stanislav Shmulevich then he has the right to do whatever he wants to do with his own property …
If some SOB can purchase and burn the flag of this country and be protected, then someone else should be able to buy a Koran, a Bible, or any other item and do with it as he damned well chooses …
As long as it was his own property I fail to see where there is any kind of a case that meets “hate crime” definitions …
Our energy would be best spent, for now, on providing financial support for Stanislav Shmulevich or to organizations willing to help him, and on contacting our legislators and president.
Representatives:
http://www.house.gov/-name-
Senators:
http://-name-.senate.gov/
President:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Our Freedom of Speech has been under massive attack the past several years:
1. Campaign Finance “Reform”
2. “Fairness” Doctrine
3. Hate “Crimes”
The MSM, the ACLU, and MoveOn.org have not only been silent, but have supported these efforts either tacitly or openly.
And they have been getting away with it. When are people going to rise up to protect our most cheerished rights in this country?
I hope this guy sues CAIR, PACE, politicians, and anyone invovled with this legislation and policies.
Should crimes committed by people who hate fat people, short people, autistic people, bald people or white conservative evangelicals be considered hate crimes? How does one constitute what groups deserve hate crime protection?
It seems we are allowed to harass anybody unless they are yelling about Jihad on an airplane. We are on our way to being the most sensitive, caring, dead society that once existed.
http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/ethnic-profiling-screw-feelings-i-want-to-live/
http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/21-questions-cnn-should-ask-the-democrats/
Respectfully,
eric
I think part of the problem is that Mr. Shmulevich was not in the United States. He was on the foreign soil of an institute of higher learning. Although surrounded by the U.S., institutes of higer learning operate as separate countries, under their own Constitutions (also called Speech Codes). As such, the law of P.C. has jurisdiction. Off with his head!
Our government has lost it’s bearings. Illegal aliens have more rights than citizens, felons convicted of 10 felonies run rampage through our neighborhoods, certain ethnic groups are afforded special criminal defenses and speech rights, and now we have a State cult, Islam. Thank you Bush. That pretzel must have stopped the oxygen to your brain. Can you speak?
Actually, I kind of like the Koran in the toilet thingee.
Orwell, as a socialist, knew what the logical extensions of the ideology were, making Animal Farm and 1984 as much predictive as they were diagnostic.
Though I view the poll with skepticism, I find the next step in moving forward with increased video surveillance as an excellent way for CAIR to make sure any planned Koran desecrations will be stopped. Blending dhimmification and socialism in a brave new world.
So, what does it take to restore JUSTICE to this nation?
What kind of place have we come to?
What kind of steps would qualify as “FORWARD”?
What does it take to make this nation confess that some Americans are NOT on America’s side, and they do not care what damage is done to Americans, Justice, or humanity, and that the rest of us need to get a grip, and do something about the Judiciary and Congress.
OK, this hangs it.
We need a good old-fashioned 1970’s style “subversive-art-happening” event.
We coordinate the displays above, or something roughly equivalent, in different parts of the same city.
This will inevitably draw the authorities to do something completely stalinist, indefensible and idiotic in response.
We video all the reactions, including the inevitable hate-crime bust of the victim-volunteer, weave them together into a documentary narrative and work that into a major event with simultaneous releases all over the place.
Who’s into it?
It has to work! It’s a no brainer.
The tactics of the 70’s worked because the people who held the responsibility for defending the culture were simply not up to the job. They were not fully convinced and fully informed promoters of rationality and freedom. They had already been infected and weakened by socialist propaganda — schools are for “socialization”, the good of the community comes before the rights of the individual, etc, etc …
When challenged by leftist and hippie irrationality they really did not have the answers, even though the answers were laying around in plain sight.
Well, the establishment is off in la-la land again, snd spoofing them into irrecoverable shame is an open option again.
Right wing reverso-hippies.
It would work.
The fools running the schools are running on empty.
And the PC thought-police … fugeddabowdit!
There are powers-that-be that have their heads where that Koran is.
Only in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, can one get arrested for offending an enemy’s “bible”.
Amazing. Simply amazing. I guess it is OK to place The Holy Bible in a toilet?
If your outraged by this, which you should be. Then your going to love the fact that starting this September in NY City “PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDS” that means tax payer money is going to pay for the creation of an Islamic Madrassa.
God forbid if your a christian and want to start a bible group on school grounds, they’ll take you to court if they don’t burn you first, yet they can turn half a public school into a Koran and Arabic ONLY ZONE
http://thecitytroll.blogspot.com/2007/07/stop-madrassa.html
The Bible is replete with prophecies speaking of how it will be in the end times. This type of incredulous activity will get worse, not better.
There will come a time when a post such as this and the quote below will be held as illegal because it affronts the sensitivities of those who are offended.
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2nd Timothy 3:1-7)
Why did he throw the book in the toilet in the first place…does he hate Muslims or Islam?
I happen to think that a toilet is a perfect place for a koran.
To dartagnans_blade - Why did whoever did it, place a crucifix in a jar of urine?
And don’t forget about the ‘art’ depicting the Virgin Mary stained with elephant dung. That was perfectly ok too. If this guy gets prosecuted then we need to make a huge outcry to prosecute anyone who has ever desecrated a Christian or Jewish religious symbol, and man is that list long. The courts will be tied up for years. The glaring and obvious double-standard here is incredible.
I hate to tell you this, D’Artagnan, but you can hate people all you want in a free country. I personally don’t think it’s productive, healthy, or socially attractive to wallow in that state, but it’s perfectly legal and none of the government’s damn business. Another thing I hate to bring up, but everybody hates somebody(s) or something(s). In fact, hate can be the proper response to despicable actions or people who carry them out. And tossing a hunk of pulped and reconstituted tree material spattered with darkened ferric compounds into an open ceramic container doesn’t qualify.
“All for one, one for all” does not equal “kumbaya”.
Is there a legal defense fund we can support?
This has to be crushed.
Why did someone place the Christian Messiah in urine or depict the Virgin Mary splattered with elephant dung? Do they hate Christians or Christianity? Islam is not above criticism anymore than Christianity or Judaism is. I’ve had to see my religion insulted and desecrated for years, yet I just choose to avoid what offends me because I believe in free speech and I realize that in a free country if you want to see your beliefs insulted you don’t have to look far, so just get over it and ignore it
After reading some of the discussion on other blogs, it appears the Koran was lifted from a Pace University “Meditation Center.”
It was said that one determination a court will have to make is *does the Meditation Center meet the criteria for being a “religious site”.
My take is that this will not make it to trial.
Like many “hate crimes” that have “occurred” on college campuses, the perpetrators have been members of the so-called “oppressed group”.
Before I jump on this guy’s bandwagon I want to know who he is and why he did what he did.
Remember, Islam permits lying and deceit in order to bring the infidel into submission.
Something has to be done about this multiculturalism/sharia law on campuses across America. Liberals and Muslim extremists such as the MSA (Muslim Student Association) have become partners in destroying our freedoms and any outward Christian worship, which is considered “imperialistic” and “hate.” Yet sharia law is perfectly okay.
There is a large university where I live (George Mason) where the Muslim association has hijacked a “prayer room,” and everyone there has to observe Muslim etiquette. Yet they would be the first ones to complain if any overt Christian symbol was present. These Wahhabi Muslims are very clever and devious at destroying our freedoms and replacing them with sharia law. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25391&only
I’m with the ones who have suggested a Boston “Koran flushing” Party if Shmulevich is convicted. This double standard has to stop.
Maybe a new business will emerge from this.
Koran in Krapper Offsets.
While I certainly do agree that theft is wrong, the punishment in this case is absolutely outrageous and we all know why this is happening.
I have nothing but condemnation for the cowards at PACE who caved in to pressure from a gang of Islamic thugs.
I stand in firm solidarity with those Italian airline passengers who refused to give up their seats to a demanding Arab Sheik last week. I stand in firm solidarity with Mr. Shmulevich, and ANY American who refuses to be bullied, harassed, threatened, and intimidated by practitioners of Islam.
America is finally waking up. The sleeping giant has been awakened and the tide is turning.
Now is the time for massive public demonstrations with yes, Koran DESECRATIONS to let these thugs and bullies know without a shadow of a doubt that We The People will not be intimidated by a book, and we will NOT roll over and submit to Islamic fascism!
Do we have a high-profile legal firm in Michelles’ readership with the moral fibre and collective courage to represent this man pro-bono?
Irish Rose #44:
I believe this is true. We are in the millions. History favors freedom.
I saw a cartoon the other day, again, it is a favorite of mine.
Shows an extensive array of military assets lined up ready for battle. A football ref is calling out:
“The terrorists have won the toss and have elected to receive”
So be it indeed.
Separate note:
Many of us are talking about mass civil disobedience re the “Koran”.
I wonder how many moderate Muslims would *commit* to symbolic acts of protest against CAIR, MSA, and Muslim Brotherhood’s use of religious protection for achieving political ends?
It’s time to step up.
I am often asked why I want to live in a country like Haiti.
This is a great example.
Another, the taxi’s have Jesus painted all over them and the ACLU can do nothing about it.
Mock Chirstianity and Judaism it’s protected under the first amendment. Yet mock Islam and now it’s a hate crime. Has the United States gone completely nuts!
That’s another farce the so called ACLU. They will sell this great country down the road to disastor. The ACLU is worse as CAIR, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc, etc. God Bless this great country and the Men and Women who are in harms way protecting us from these islamofascists.
Think I’ll go throw my cookbook in the toilet.
Guess Betty Crocker will prosecute me?
This whole issue has gone way out of control!
Hate means to kill or injure through action or words that HARM, so I thought.
Since when does throwing a book in a toilet, particularly a cult religion (MHO), rise to the levels of hate?
Someone please define so I’ll know when I curse a “tanked” illegal who pulls his car out in front of me when I am driving, if that’s considered HATE instead of him driving while impaired.
I “hate” what is happening to common sense and the evil that permeates our country.
That’s why ACLU really stands for “Anti Christian Lawyers Union”
iamsaved; You’ve got that 100% CORRECT!
This thread is going to get Michelle arrested for hate crimes and it can now be said that her site is a hate site.
/sarc off (but almost true in light of this story)
Well, if that’s the case, we will all gather together in masses and JUST maybe someone with 1/2 a brain will listen.
Supported by the Anti Christian Liberal Union
ACLU
Another Communist Lovers Union
Sorry, folks, I’m going to have to be contrarian.
Putting his own Koran in his own toilet would not have been a problem.
Taking a Koran that belongs to the University and putting it in a toilet is theft, destruction of property, and vandalism.
The same would be true of burning someone else’s flag or submerging someone else’s crucifix in urine.
On the other hand, since hate crime laws are illegitimate, I object to that aspect of the charges.
None should be illegal. They are all very offensive, but that is what makes them suck effective forms of nonviolent free speech.
Exit question: Does posting a picture of the Koran in a toilet on this website make Mrs Malkin guilty of a hate crime?
The Globalists need this country, as we know it, to disappear.
The First Ammendment has been made unrecognizable. Islam is becoming a state sponsored religion in the United States of America.
No borders.
Foreign nationals get “constitutional protections” while American citizens are criminalized for enacting their own *formerly* guaranteed constitutional rights.
Taxation without representation in Congress: trickle-down funding from Washington for non-elected bodies at state and local levels which are taking land out of productive private use for “greenspace”.
Two Points;
1. You are correct but if it were the Bible, there would be no charges.
2. He is being charged with a hate crime.
He wasn’t charged with theft. He was charged with two felonies, criminal mischief and aggravated harassment. It’s ridiculous.
This is so true and CA is leading the way - go figure. While we are at it, let’s not forget the other state sponsored religion - witchcraft (as defined by the 9th circuit court) - go figure again.
The worst that should happen is that he pay for the book.
That should be the END.
Ever get the feeling Muslims are trying to build a frustration fire in our bellies to the point that we will rise up against the government?
Am looking forward to reading more about this guy who tossed the Koran into the loo.
Who is he?
Why did he do it?
Were there any witnesses?
Who discovered the Koran in the loo?
Who reported the Koran in the loo?
Who accepted the report and documented the incident?
Who do they report to on campus?
Why did this go from a campus matter to a criminal matter?
Who advised the PU administration on this matter?
At what point in the deliberations about the student’s conduct was this matter removed from a student judicial process (managed by PU’s Student Affairs division)- and who made the decision? -who made the call to enact it? - and who was in charge of the student judicial process?
Who did they report it to?
Is the FBI involved in any ongoing investigations?
Who is prosecuting this case? Who has jurisdiction?
Will the alleged perp be prosecuted by Pace University?
Is there a Muslim Student Association on campus?
Who was the last “speaker” the Muslim Student Association sponsored on campus and what did that speaker exhort Muslim students to do *politically on campus*?
Can it be determined whether or not the alleged perp was acting in defiance of the MSA’s political agenda on campus?
What do Senator Chuck Schumer and Senator Hillary Rodman [sic]Clinton have to say about the state prosecuting jihad on behalf of CAIR?
More than curious.
More than curious.
Ditto.
I am the point where, given a topic, I decide what would be the RIGHT thing to do or apply common sence to it and know the opposite will be outcome.
Sadly, it is all too often coming to pass.
Gitmo comes to mind.
For better or worse, NYC is the most ethnically diverse city in the US, based on my own informal survey taken over my last 4 years here in the city.
By pursuing this man harshly, the NYPD and city are doing something that they feel will prevent some sort of uprising or backlash from the Muslim community. If they don’t file tough charges, Muslims may riot. If they do, it will appear on a couple of blogs and then die down, hence, they chose the latter.
As usual, policies and laws are written and altered to appease the loudest minority.
However, as I live in NYC, I’m not too excited by Muslim extremists having extra fuel to fire their hatred of America. I’d be a bit happier if he’d have flushed the Koran in a San Francisco toilet.
Other questions to ask:
What are these “meditation rooms” that are going up all over American campuses often at taxpayer expense? (Shmulevich took a Koran from the “meditation room.”)
Are they actually rooms for all denominations. . .or are they simply places for Muslims to pray run by Muslims with the euphemism “meditation room” so no one catches on? At the “prayer room” at George Mason University in Fairfax, VA the Muslims are running it and acting like it is theirs only.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2007/07/017531print.html
Simple. Prosecutorial misconduct. Again.
Nifong memories anyone? Oh, and add the idiot DA that went after Tom Delay. And the idiot that went after Mr. Libby.
Barf.
BOHICA (Bend Over Here It Comes Again).
LMAO @ “BOHICA” …trademark this an sell it to Bacardi as the perfect chaser.
LOL bear1909
It’s a shame Ramadan is so far off, that would make a good time for a civil disobediance Koran in the toilet showing. But if we’re actually serious about it, we should follow what happens over the next few days and then actually set a date for. Talk is cheap…
Don’t be surprised if the ACLU takes on this fellow’s case and defends him from prosecution.
Then again, I wouldn’t be surprised if they got in line to stone the guy.
You just never know with those folks.
Yep! This squares up with the prosecution of sincere and deligent Border Patrol agents, granting immunity to a drug dealer. Remember that?
The law is now abused to prosecute the law-abiding freedom lovers.
Just wait until we get a demoncrap president.
We ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
Welcome to America, where jihadists and illegal aliens have more rights than anyone else.
damn, if that isn’t true. what have we become? Or allowed a few invaders to make us look like?
How many are rolling over in their graves?
When Hitlary and Osama Obama get elected we are going to get a real dose of the Orwellian point of view or a really violent Civil War. Thank god the founding fathers included the 2nd Amendment to protect our freedoms I think we will be counting on it more than every in the very near future.
Tom Tancredo seems to be the only hope for President, 2008: http://www.teamtancredo.com/
Michelle forgot to put the picture up of the effigy of an American soldier burning in Portland earlier this year. There is nothing more disturbing than seeing a bunch of loons burning an image of your husband and your son in the streets of America, and no one doing a damn thing about it. Sorry, I have no sympathy for those crying foul over the Koran in the toilet.
I wonder who will take this student’s case?
Are there fellow students at Pace who will take up the cause of defending the student’s right to do what he did?
Has the charging of the student with felonies raised the ire of conservative students on campus?
If not, I am wondering about the possibility of this student being a sympathizer who is willing to take a hit for Islam as some kind of martyr gig.
Like I said before, many “hate” incidents are not “hate” incidents at all because they are used as provocations by the “protected group” (more equal) against the “dominant culture”. There is a long history of this on American college campuses.
Case in point: Duke University and Nifong. Remember how the faculty skewered the alleged rapists? No questions asked.
We’ll see how this unfolds.
Stanislav Shmulevich
Dude, some suggestions to keep yourself out of trouble.
Next time you want to make a statement with a toilet use a copy of:
The Bible
The Constitution
The Declaration on Independence
The American Flag
A portrait of the President, Pope, any non-muslim leader
Etc…
Stanislav Shmulevich….recent immigrant perhaps? Bosnia? Albania? hmmmmm
WE can feed it to the PIGS.
They’ll eat anything.
Watch those fanatics start twisting and shaking! Seizuristis
dang!
Seizuitis
Isn’t this wonderful? Now we have a victimless ‘Hate Felony’. That is how they begin to define ‘crimes against the state’. It won’t be long until disagreeing with ‘the state’ will cause you to be committed to a ‘psychiatric hospital’, because ‘you must be crazy if you don’t agree with us’.
One more time. Sorry guys.
Seizuritis. There.
We are crazy…..we are on the fringe, remember???
Does that say the detective’s name is Eisal Khan?
By today’s standards, the founders of the USA were guilty of hate crimes. Even the totalitarian British in the 1700s were more tolerant of different points of view than the modern liberal PC establishment. Hate crime laws are an abomination of the free speech protections of the Bill of Rights.
By the way, the Koran is no more deserving of protection than any other book - and I would be willing to bet that copies of the Bible have disappeared at PACE University without any one complaining - including the librarian. (If I was defending this case, I would want to know just how many Christian and Jewish books disappeared or reappeared in mutilated fashion.)
So you justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior? Wonder where I heard that before…lol. I don’t particularly care one way or the other, I also find it incomprehensible that the MSM and the Ultra libs ignore and sometimes encourage hate = intolerance in christian, jewish, moral values while condemning any act perceived to be hate=intolerance against “the little guy” if you will. The problem is the act. Why would we be defending such an act…are we them?
I don’t think anybody is defending the act, as much as objecting to the criminalization of the act. Dropping a Koran (sp?) in a commode is not genteel. It is also not a felony in any sane world. The sooner you understand that, the closer you will be to enlightenment, my Dumasian grasshopper.
The defendant has a beef with a “group” of Muslim students.
Will the Muslim students be investigated as to the nature of the disagreement?
Are they members of the Muslim Student Association?
I think the detectives name is Faisal Kahn. Hmmmm.
But I thought this was an approved practice for pilgrims during the holy month of “Ramthejohn”. Sure beats getting trampled while going in circles and throwing stones at a big stone Satan.
We have men and women fighting and living with death every day in Iraq and Afghanistan to give their people freedom and democracy.
1. I can see little personal freedom there, nor will there be if sharia is sanctioned.
2. There is not a snowballs chance in Bagndad democracy will ever be implemented.
3. If both of the reasons given are false, we need to bring our troops home to protect our borders and college campuses from infiltration and invasion.
The first target for removal should be the “thought” police.
Of course the Muslim Student Association is involved.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/05/pace
MSA is widespread in the US. Imagine the impact of jihad fought by students wielding the legal system to set precedent in US courts to protect *ISLAM* but not other religions. Quite a coup.
Why is the NYPD investigating this. Hate crimes are the jurisdiction of the FBI.
No mention of why the jurisdictional priority is changed in this case.
The ACLU would never go against CAIR.
The article i just linked reports that CAIR is saying there has been a rise in anti-Islamic “hate crimes” (not incidents reported but actual crimes- hmmm- they get to declare what is and what is not a crime now?) in freakin ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.
Slow slippery propaganda to establish as fact what is in fact not.
Michelle, the image provides page 1 of 2 for the police report.
Can you post page 2 as well?
The first page leaves many questions, of which, is it mere coincidence this report filed by one Faisal Khan?
It seem s as though only about 10% realize that he STOLE THE BOOK IN QUESTION.
Despite Miss. Malkin’s clever editorial decision to link this up with those notorious pieces of “art” it is a bit disingenuous. This guy did not go out and buy a Koran, put it in a toilet, offer it up as art and then got arrested. If he had done that, no charges would have ever been brought, just as no charges were brought up against the guy dumping the cross in urine or the Mary/elephant dung guy. Our fellow here did (according to the report) commit a crime.
Say what you want about the logic of hate crime legislation (I don’t like it personally) or whether it is applied evenly across religious/ethnic/whatever lines) but I think the more proper question to ask would be if a Muslim stole a cross and dumped it into urine, would his crime also be considered a “hate” crime?
And byw Gayle, per post #83, despite your apparent hatred of Islam, it is not acceptable to just burn any copy of the Koran you may come across (apparently without heed to its ownership), and I hope that you would be punished accordingly.
PACE University has taken a stand to protect one specific group of religious individuals and apparently looked the other way when other religious groups are involved. The same apparently applies to the police and justice system of the state. This is not equal protection, and the individual arrested here ought to seek civil right remedies. PACE University may very well be biased not only against freedom of speech but against a particular religion or religious expression. One way to tell if bias is happening is to look at the treatment of Christian and Jewish library books as well as the Koran. God forbid that Muslims would mistreat either of these - for example, burning them along with American flags.
chapoutier - why wasn’t he arrested for stealing? Criminal mischief and aggravated harassment? Doesn’t sound like simple stealing to me.
Yes, this is all a bunch of BS, but is anyone surprised? Honestly?
Question is, what can be done about it?
To I am saved: Caveat: Not a criminal attorney, but “criminal mischief in the fourth degree” sounds about right for this sort of theft and/or vandalism, i.e that was the underlying crime of taking the book and flushing it.
Fact is there is no such thing as being convicted of a free-standing “hate crime”. There has to be some sort of underlying other crime that was motivated by the hate.
chaputier #98 - What if it’s a Bible or Torah that’s damaged, destroyed or burned? Would the crime then apply to it’s monetary value or is it also to be deemed a felony? For that matter, why must it be a book with any religious relationship. Been a long time since I was in school, but seem to remember that for a lost, stolen, maimed, or damaged book you or your parents were sent a bill and that was the end of it. Not trying to deliberately miss the point here, but I’m getting more suspicious this has a lot more going on than reported. Either the book chucking student had an agenda or the group pressuring the school has an ever bigger one. Either way, it will be the students of tomorrow that pay the ultimate price.
Apology chapoutier, spelled your nic as chaputier #103. I promise not input anything further suffering an overdose of caffeine!
Bingo. It is a preemptive strike and it appears to be working.
To 24 Klady: If a bible or torah were damaged or destroyed in the way it was here, and the perpetrator admitted to doing it out of a hatred for christians or jews, and the jurisdiction had a hate crime statute, as they did here, then I would hope for the same treatment.
But that is not what happened with the artwork (term used loosely) that MM cites, nor is it the same situation as flag burning. Despite what those action’s reflect of the actor’s hatred, there is no underlying crime (at least not yet) and therefore a poor comparison.
Again, I’m not a fan of any hate crime legislation, but apparently its the law in that jurisdicition and should be upheld fairly. If you have evidence that the “hate crime” part is being unevenly utilized there against one group and not against another, then that is a whole different story. But until then all this is speculation and bluster.
The Pace University judicial code for students more than likely addresses what the penalty is for stealing, vandalizing, or destroying University property.
Yes, chapoutier, the student stole the book (probably has a replacement value of under $30.
The point is that the University has arbitrarily set the value of this particular piece of property so high as to: 1) defer to the NYPD jurisdiction over the matter; 2) completely violate its own terms of its code of conduct for students by abdicating its role of arbiter of these matters; and, 3) judging that an Islamic text should receive protection not afforded other religious texts which have been defaced with obscenities, alteration of “holy pictures”, and soiled with human DNA in various forms (these acts are merely alluded to in secular terms in the student conduct code using words such as “refrain from destroying” “respect the resources of the University”..blah blah blah.
My concern here is that the President is being pressured to man up and be PC at a campus that has only in the past five years tracked “campus climate” issues involving harassment of protected groups.
THis has been the normal evolutionary process of PC control of college life on many many college campuses.
Pace is five years into the process.
Believe me, there have been worse acts perpetrated against racial groups which campus judicial systems across the country have had to deal with- and students weren’t being charged with felonies because somebody’s religious views were offended or transgressed.
There is a good possibility this wont get any traction because there is too much precedent to allow it to get any.
For example, a campus i worked on in New England (major school with major reputation) was the scene of a firebombing of a shanty town erected by students of color on the main campus green.
Felony charges were discussed but in the end the campus handled the matter by retaining its jurisdiction (full investigations by campus police and reviews by many hearings and meetings across the campus community).
The firebombers were lucky students werent sleeping in the shanties when they threw their molotov cocktails. The structures were erected on university property and were therefore university property.
It violated the code of conduct and the rights of students of color practicing their right to dissent.
The symbolism of the structure was clearly defined by the students as a symbol of racial inequities perceived, real, and imagined by the dissenting students.
The firebombing was racially inspired because its end was to end the dissent of a specific group of students with precise racial and ethnic identities.
There is a good possibility that the higher ups who hired this weak President at Pace will pull him into the back room and let him know he needs to get control of the situation *and* get control of the students.
The President will get ahold of the VP for Student Affairs and chafe their necks or else. And from there, the student groups, namely MSA, will be monitored as to what they are doing around campus with their own brand of mischief.
If things can’t be calmed down, there will be a semi-violent student protest (a student led takeover of the admin building)and it will be led by MSA who will then be exposed as the perps they are.
Notice in the article I cited that they interviewed a scared Muslim female student. They didn’t interview any of the leadership of the MSA….who tend not to be female students.
The MSA is behind the whole thing.
it is not all necessarily bluster, chapoutier.
The document MM published refers to the confessant having a disagreement with a “group of students”.
The hate crime laws of the state of New York are not being cited. Criminal mischief charges are being leveled. And the hub-bub over this is being referred to as a “hate crime”. At least my understanding of the charges, as outlined in detail at the Captain’s blog Captain’s last nite, leads me to see the distinction being made.
The key question still remains- and 24kLady alludes to it in her #103- why is this being handled by the NYPD and not the normal student judicial disciplinary channels for stealing and vandalizing university property?
It is agenda-driven hype. That’s why.
Has the book chucker admitted he did this out of “hatred” for Islam, Islamic students, or the Koran? Or simply, dislike? To subject all students to sensitivity training after the alleged incident smacks of 1938, and should scare all of us.
Bear:
A fine post and I guess I don’t really disagree that this may have been an overreaction on the school’s part or the result of pressure from a campus group. However, we are not talking about someone spray painting some childish obscenities on the bathroom wall. This is something, like cross-burning that is meant to express explicit hatred for one group. The perp in this instance admitted as much. No matter what group that is directed toward, that is a dangerous thing for a school to ignore and exposes them to great liability if something worse were to happen. So can’t say as I blame the school that much for getting the police involved.
My original point was:
1. that MM throws up this article and then points to a couple of totally unrelated items as “proof” that hate crime laws are prosecuted unfairly.
2. setting aside one’s opinions on how Pace or law enforcement reacted here, until one shows me that the parties involved have in the past or would have handled it differently if it someone would have, for example left burning bibles at the door of the right-to-life chapter, I am a little skeptical on how this incident provides much basis for her assertion either.