The Great Democrat Suck-Up to Big Labor Update: Chaos…8:35pm Eastern Last word to Kucinich crusading for…universal pre-school! Hillary: “I’m your girl”…and Hillary gets booed
The Democrat presidential debate sponsored by the AFL-CIO begins shortly. It promises to be sweaty and soggy–the weather, I mean, not im-moderator Keith Olbermann. Here:
Labor groups are ready to hand out 10,000 rain ponchos, but hope their members won’t have to use them tonight when the Democratic candidates and thousands of union members and leaders gather at Soldier Field.
A.F.L.-C.I.O. spokesman Steve Smith said today that the stage for the candidates and the press area will be covered in case of rain — there is still a possibility of thunderstorms — but those in attendance are not allowed to carry umbrellas into the stadium.
It is hot here, surpassing 90 degrees by mid-afternoon. The A.F.L.-C.I.O. leaders decided to move the debate to Soldier Field and risk having it disrupted by rain because unions in the Midwest had told them that at least 12,000 members planned to attend. That was far more than A.F.L.-C.I.O. leaders thought could be accommodated at the original debate site, Chicago’s main convention center.
Gerald McEntee, president of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, called the debate, which starts at 6 p.m. here (7 p.m. Eastern) “the biggest job interview ever.” All the Democratic candidates — except for former Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska — will be participating. MSNBC will broadcast the debate, with Keith Olbermann acting as moderator. He will ask questions and the candidates will face some questions from union members.
Allah will have video.
Here are the opening statements.
***
8:15pm Eastern. I just tuned it after putting my kids tonight. What a weird scene. Candidates shouting to be heard while people in the audience scream, yell, and stand up like they were at a football game. Has it been like this the whole time?
8:20pm Eastern. Yep, just back from a commercial break and you can see people in the audience waving, mugging for the cameras, and whooping it up. Chris Dodd has been talking so loud he’s almost lost his voice. Hillary is a big loser in this debate format. She looks limp and sounds shrill. I’m reminded of this performance.
8:26pm Eastern. Hardball question from Olby for Obama: “Would you honor Barry Bonds at the White House?” Obama won’t even answer.
8:33pm Eastern. John Edwards drags out his James Lowe story.
Dennis Kucinich is pumping up the crowd with his fantasy talk…he gets the last word crusading for…universal pre-school! Yippee!
***
From the NYSun liveblogging…
7:26: Olbermann brings it back to Hillary, who’s been attacked a bit in this round of trade questions. Clinton: “I want a united Democratic Party that will stand against the Republicans. And I will say that for 15 years I’ve stood up against the right-wing machine and I’ve come out stronger. So, if you want a winner, who knows how to take them on, I’m your girl.” It was clearly a canned line. But the audience ate it up.
7:49: Clinton on Obama’s Pakistan statements: “You can think big, but remember: You shouldn’t always say everything you think, if you’re running for president, because it can have consequences across the world and we don’t need that right now.” Hillary gets the biggest boo of the night.
***
Post-debate gabfest. Chris Matthews calls Hillary “majestic.”
***
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Categories: 2008 campaign, Democrats
The Sundries Shack
» “Drive small cars and wait for the wind.”
First impression from channel surfing occasionally to this ‘candidate forum’…
Keith Olbermann has as much control over this event as Lucille Ball did on that assembly line…..
6:41 pm - Edwards says he’d withdraw 40,000 - 50,000 troops out right now….
Obviously he hasn’t heard of the positive things the surge has brought about…
Obama is discouraged because they haven’t seen any progress at this point……but he’s referring to progress in terms of Republicans jumping ship to the liberal side…..not progress in Iraq….which has been happening…..
I feel like the only guy in the movie theater - no one else here seems to be watching this Dem love-fest…..
Mark it down…. 6:48 pm - Hillary is the first Dem to use the term ( that I’ve heard ) Islamic Extremist….
They must have been listening to the GOP candidates and read some of our postings…..
Helllooooo….. echo- echo- echo….
Bueller…..Bueller…..
Everyone must be over at Hot Air…
Sorry, I can not watch those people. I just ate a late supper and do not want to upset my stomach!
I ate light tonight….so if I do have that reaction - it won’t be so bad….
jrlingreenbay
Edwards heard about the surge … it went in one ear and out the other …
Hey, Desert…..
of course it did - he just paid $400.00 to clear the brush away from his ears….they should be cleared.
Can these Dims answer a question as asked?
Asked about the early start to the presidential race….they go on about every talking point they can and don’t even TOUCH the question….and the moderator lets it go…
Who ever thought, Olbermann and any form of the word ‘moderate’ in the same sentence….
Universal Preschool?
/29Victor tries to picture what a Klingon preschool would look like.
/29Victor shivers
MAJESTIC?
Missed that one….wow…are the post-debate gabbers equipped with bibs to catch their drool?
When’s the last time ( or first ) that you’ve ever heard a MSM figure call a Republican politician ‘Majestic’? HA!
jrlingreenbay
how about “Mr Majestyk” … as in Charles Bronson … lol
Ohhhhhhhhh….Desert….Great movie!!!
I wonder, in dim light, maybe Hill would look a bit like Bronson……
Ehhhhh….nevermind…..
I have lost count … how many so-called “debates” have the Dems had now … the are on TV more than some of those atrocious middle of the night info-mercials … maybe everyone will get tired of these “debates” and tune the DEMO-CRAPS out …
How about killing two birds with one stone:
“Senator Clinton, as President, how would handle the issue of illegal immigration….and how would YOU like to lose weight in HALF THE TIME it would normally take???”
Maybe have ‘Smiling Bob’ from the Enzyte commercials moderate???
HAH!
yeah … and ask her if she is going to hire any interns in the White House under the age of 60 …
Well sorry jrl, I am suffering through a Dodger Game Yawnfest waiting for the Angels. I have absolutely no desire to hear that group talk about diddly. I’ll pop in here to get the scoop from my friends.
Ah, you are my friends aren’t you?
I am just amazed that having a debate hosted by such a BLATANT partisan as Olbermann is - whose show is so spiteful towards the GOP and ridiculous in its ridicule of people - is considered ‘moderated’.
I honestly cannot wait until all this preliminary BS is over with and we get to some real debates with real questions and real moderators….
Oh yeah….we already had one….on Fox.
We’re all friends here, aj….
I was just feeling like I was sitting at an Oklahoma bus stop in the middle of the night when I first started posting on this thread….
I literally heard tumbleweeds…. Or maybe that was the debate I was watching…..hard to tell.
Keep up the good work, loved the infomercial stuff, LMAO
Oh MY!!! I just realized…
Doesn’t Dennis Kucinich look like a miniature ‘Smiling Bob’?????
Holy Cow!
I just watched the debate. All of the Amen corner here must be unhappy. Candidates talking about health care, Iraq, pensions, the environment. Wait, nothing about guns, gays, and God. With these kind of issues, our country may actually be united. Quick, MM please bring up some more wedge issues!
Ugh…
God forbid someone bring up the second amendment to the Constitution, Mike…
You may get labeled by the Dems as someone who needs ‘Mental Help’
The only unhappiness on this end is how contrived the entire debate was - nothing but talking point after talking point - no control by the moderator - the crowd acting as if they’re at an outdoor concert - Candidates saying they’d cut our troop levels in Iraq now, just as we have signs of military improvement, kissing the butt of organized labor, deploring big business ( while on a General Electric corporation owned television station ), crying out against political donations from large groups in a debate sponsored by one of the biggest money machines they dems have….
yeah… all is good in Dhim-land….
First sensible thing Obama has done in his entire career. Maybe he’s a bit
gunnuclear missle shy after the whole Pakistan thing.MikeB, We’d just rather hear people speak intelligently about those issues, rather than people who act as if socialism didn’t fail miserably in the last century, and believe with all of their gentle hearts that Global Warming is a real threat, but Terrorism and Islamic Fascism are just bumper stickers.
OK, didnt watch and WONT. No matter WHAT I will never vote Dem again..*reformed since ‘96*!
I honestly dont care what ANY of them have to say. I can read the headlines later and be sure whatever might be mildly interesting is on MM and HA>
CAPTION CONTEST
OR better:
there wasn’t a “moderator” in any sense of the word … more like a “stage director” … feeding everyone their cues and then getting out of the way … this was not a “debate” … just everyone getting their turn to have the stage to themselves to say whatever they wanted … and to hell with any answers to any of the so-called questions … what a waste of time and electricity …
CAPTION CONTEST
“What do you mean her hair looks better?”
“I spent $400.00 on this hair cut and I get 5 minutes of airtime?”
“Wow - have you seen her from THIS angle?”
Desert - they didn’t call it a debate - they called it a ‘forum’ - maybe covering their butts because they knew how it would go….
And as for moderator abilities…I’ve seen better control from a cowboy on an 8-second ride
jrl
What’s in a name? … a bunch of BS by any other name is still a bunch of BS …
So the 8-second ride analogy works in that sense, then….
Cowboys, bullriding, BS Dem Forums….
Either way, you need boots to protect yourself from the warm steamy piles…
not to mention the Hill-rant against China … thought she was going to have a coronary in the middle of that one …
Why DL, was she upset over the Toy recall?
And not just when RUNNING for president, how about when you are president….guess that’s why they have ‘executive privelege’ - so that those private thoughts don’t get into the media and blabbed all over the world…
( That’s what leaks are for, right Dems?)
Forgot to add -
Just what were they booing? The fact that a Politician should be careful about what they say because it MAY have ramifications in the world?
Of course - libs want full disclosure and don’t believe in things like, executive priviledge, top-secret programs, etc…
ajmontana
She railed on the toy recall, then the lead paint, followed by the “food” scare (conveniently failing to mention it was “pet food” not people food), and last but not least the trade imbalance with China … the veins were bulging
lol,
Caption
Hill, it’s been a long time since you’ve been anyone’s “girl”!
I might have to see a highlight of that one.
Caption contest
( Maybe he’s the one leading the chorus of boos… )
“Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo”
aj … she was ready to burst … it was down right scary …
palani
especially not Bill’s …
This idea has been bandied about for some time, especially here in Hawaii. Politicians have cited teachers lamenting how unprepared 6 year olds are for kindergarden! It’s really just another push for taxpayer-funded government daycare.
the real reason is they want to get our kids even earlier so they can start brainwashing them …
Anyone see the irony in a bunch of anti-war, hope we fail in Iraq, Dems having a forum at “Soldier’s Field”?
What’s next? A live debate from NRA headquarters?
How bout an NBA venue they could get the crooked ref to be moderator…..
aj … better not be Phoenix … the ref might not make it out of town in one piece …
How wild I meant that Toy reference to be a joke…
ajmontana … I suspected that was what you meant … but she really did go off on the toy thing in a big way … hmmm … maybe I better rephrase that … naaahhhh … lol
Let’s get Michael Vick to moderate - after each debate, the loser gets put down…..
‘Ouch’
Hey dems. If one of these idiots is the next president and things go down the toilet, be adults and blame your party not the Republicans.
Clamity, are there Dem’s here? scary….
MikeB drove by and dropped a lib-bomb, hasn’t been heard from in a while….
I think MB can hear the Ice Cracking…
I’m done y’all….have a good night…looking forward to more about this tomorrow…
nite…
Dare I say it? The Democrat Presidential Candidates will now even stand in the rain, shouting at each other to be broadcast on MSNBC which has ratings so low they really only barely register on the scale, truly, but won’t debate on Fox News, which handily beats MSNBC and CNN rolled together!
Imagine: All those people to convince, all that free advertising, worldwide by the largest numbers literally possible in a single cable broadcast using current ratings numbers as a benchmark…. inside… … in a warm, comfy studio… where it’s dry…. and they don’t have to shout…. or be wet. But still they won’t do it.
With each venue more absurd than the last, the Democrats are really asking for the intellectual equivilent of a knuckle sandwich when it comes to not debating on Fox News where they can also demonstrate that they believe they can win an election on a more level playing field.
Samuel Beckett could not have imagined anything more absurd. Or an arrogance so enraging.
Someone hand the Democrat Presidential candidates a towel - as usual, they’re all wet.
Caption Contest
Hillary stated a simple gelding procedure would make former senator John Edwards an ideal Vice President.
Caption Contest
I dunno which is sexier. One’s got better cleavage, but the other’s got better hair and poutier lips.
CAPTION CONTEST
Mr. C_C:
The Dems are racing themselves to the bottom. After the straw poll they’ll be begging for a FOX debate.
“Best to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.”
-A Lanky Republican from Illinois
CAPTION CONTEST
Are you talkinna me?
I’d otherwise agree with you Bear but,
1. I don’t think there is anything foolish about calling out an entire field of presidential candidates on one side of the spectrum for not debating in the widest watched venue because of “bias’ when all objective reports cite media bias 8 - 1 in their favor.
and
2. I’d agree about racing to the bottom but since the Nixon/Kennedy debates, the media creates the impressions that drive opinion on the part of those those not closely following the details (nothing new there), and recent history demonstrates that the media will attempt to make every stupid mistake on the part of the Democrats look like an act of genius, and even if they only succeed 50% of the time, in a world of 2 - 3% victory margins, that’s enough.
Caption Contest:
Edwards: “Whew! Oooooh! Look at her hair! Ouch!”
Caption Contest;
pony: Her husband let a fat chick DO THIS…..
or- from the Shill; did you steal your one dollar LiveStrong bracelet too?
last for now-
Shill: Maybe we should get rid of the little people and have a REAL debate…soon.
The Hair: YEAH! oh no Wait… I see MIC’s, ooh thats gonna hurt.
Mr C_C: You’re trigger happy tonite I see. The Lincoln quote was about the Democrats, not you.
Here’s a question for you regarding the 2 to 3 per cent margin you refer to:
What made the difference in the Republicans favor the last 2 Presidential elections?
C.C.:
“I don’t know, John. It is pretty convincing, but I think your wife is right. You’ll never be a real girl. But then again… you’re asking the wrong person for advice here.”
Caption Contest
“No Hillary. Real women do it this way. Hands on hips, purse your lips, two dabs of mousse on your fingertips.”
NCN:
That’s pretty funny, actually; makes me think of another one:
Edwards: “There’s Janet Reno blowing kisses at her again. Whew! Not good, man, not good!”
(Dueling quotes?
Bear,
There was no context to the Lincoln quote, but you’re right, I’m a tad on edge tonight.
In terms of the percentage question, that is a simple question with a very big answer, and I’ll bet few people agree on all the possible details. My point is that elections are close, and with the most Liberal congress we’ve ever seen in terms of leadership, if we value our stogy Republican values, we cannot afford to give an inch on this one.
We’ve all seen how the election results are shifting and I’ve been in the media for over 25 years and know effective market strategy and entertainment strategy both when I see them, and right now it’s democrats 99, Republicans 1, and that is a very clear no-brainer. We’re getting truly killed this time around, party due to an unpopular president and war, but also because I have never seen the odds so stacked - arrogantly, determinedly, stacked against the right. It may not look that way from an even careful perusal of the media , but I’ll beg your indulgance and ask you to trust me in the aggregate, if not completely, just this once. And as you can see, the deaf ear the right is giving the issue is driving me crazy because I’ve made a career of being right about things like audience perception, and my current forcast is nothing less than an absolute a disaster in ‘08 unless things change, and I mean fast.
caption contest:
Oohhh Hilary, old lady posture … bad move, just … just… bad …
Probably the last one for the night, a hard day’s blogging has got me beat.
“Hillary and John learn the hard way what every pet owner already knows: you should always walk your pet Kucinich before bringing him into a crowded auditorium.”
I had my TV off during the whole thing.
It was the only way to be safe from the f*cktardery and ass-hattery…
Michelle and other commentators on this site:
I’m surprised that none of you mentioned the best questions of the night.
The older gentlemen who worked at LTV Steel and it closed two years after he retired and 1/3 of his pension went with it. He now has to stare across the table from his wife of 30+ and figure out how to pay her medical bills.
His exact words: “What is wrong with this country and what are you doing to do about it?”
He received a standing ovation from the entire Soldier Field audience.
Then again, I shouldn’t be surprised that the Barry Bonds question gets mentioned here instead.
MikeB:
Dems invented “wedge issues.” For 50 years they;ve used social security, class warfare, and race baiting to divide this country.
You really are stupid, aren’t you?
Rick Moran
MikeB claims to be a “well trained” lawyer … need I say more?
Good Morning Blogger Family..
Ladies & Gentlemen Start you’re Engines!
Opps, you already have…my bad.
‘Mornin all -
Have to admit - I re-watched much of the debate when it re-aired later in the evening…
Funniest thing I saw had to be during the commercial, when you saw one of the sponsors advertising this anti-big business forum was none other than an oil company, Conoco-Phillips.
They don’t want to take their money for their campaign, and the AFL-CIO rails on about the evils of big business, but lo and behold, who’s shelling out the money to put these clowns on the air?
Gotta make you smile….
Caption: Ooo, girl, you need to do something about that hair.
Good morning everybody.
Rick, first, you should stop the name calling or you too should have your privileges revoked.
Okay, Rick, let’s assume you’re right that Dems invented wedge issues then Karl Rove refined it into a fine art. You know his philosophy: Inspire Red Staters to vote against their economic interests by scarring them that gays are taking over, that the government will take away their guns, and stop their grandchildren from seeing Santa at the mall.
Tell me Rick, what would you do for that gentleman at the debate who is disabled and whose former employer declared bankruptcy and he lost 1/3rd of his pension and his health care? Give him a gun? Give him a bus ride to protest at an abortion clinic?
Yes, if your husband has a cushy job at the Rand Corp. you can’t be bothered with messy bread and butter issues. But, the majority of Americans do.
I think Rick asked a rhetorical question, but lets not nit pick….lmao
“Inspire Red Staters to vote against their economic interests by scarring them that gays are taking over,”
( What in Sam Hill are you talking about? )
“..that the government will take away their guns,”
( Are you saying liberals DON’T want to limit gun ownership? Think again )
“… and stop their grandchildren from seeing Santa at the mall. ”
( Do you NOT see the obvious efforts to minimize and eliminate the mention of “Christmas” in every corner of the public? )
Ok JRL, no, here in NYC (the belly of the beast) I have not noticed any decrease in Christmas celebrations or decorations. Yes, once in a while I see Bill O’Reilly getting heated (which happens what, every six seconds) over some alleged controversy here or there and claim there’s a war on Christmas. Bill needs something to cover since there was too few weak prison sentences for child molesters and FOX strictly forbade him from calling female employees.
As far as gun control, on the federal level, at least, I believe Dems have realized that it’s a non-starter and haven’t done anything in years. You want proof–there was no gun control debate even after the shooting at Virginia Tech.
But, JRL, you have my sympathy. We both know thanks to Mr. Bush, the chances of a Republican in the White House in 2009 is about as remote as Dennis K. playing in the NBA All Star Game.
MikeB:
I’m not going to go any more off topic than we already have -
As 2009, we’ll wait and see - but when you have Democratic candidates as hypocritcal as we do now - and as blind to current affairs as they are - I’m not as worried as you may believe.
Take the past month - there’s been noted improvement in Military operations in Iraq - a positive step. This was even noted by LIBERALS, and due to the efforts of the full-force of the surge taking effect.
BUT - you still have these Dem candidates, like Edwards, saying he’d pull 40-50,000 troops out TODAY -
THAT’S a Commander in Chief? You see the fruits of your efforts coming to bear, and just as they begin to work, you pull the rug out from under them and yank out all the troops that the surge just put in?
The logic is unexplainable. But they just keep it coming.
Ok, you are entitled to your opinion JRL. But, I don’t think in this case, at least, I/we are off topic. My point is that the vast majority of the questions I heard (and I admit I missed the first 1/2 hour) were relevant to working Americans and are important–unlike wedge issues.
MikeB - can you give us a list of what you consider “Wedge Issues”?
Also, I guess by wording your post with ‘vast majority of the questions I heard’ - that would exclude the ridiculous “Would you welcome Barry Bonds” question…..
Imagine that - a baseball question lobbed in as a softball
Just one comment on the “wedge issues” and I gotta go earn a living for a while …
MikeB said:
This is a common Democrat and leftist approach …
they constantly try to change rules and issues around to suit their own needs …
but let that same issue approach or rule comes back and be successfully used against them and what do they do?
they cry foul faster than you can blow a Tim Donaghy whistle.
The only solid question all night came from the guy in the audience that had seen his retired life ruined by union greed that took 2/3 of his retirement money and left him in dire straits to care for his sick wife … and he never got a straight answer from anyone …
later all … keep up the good work
After his recent grossly unacceptable insults of our host Michelle Malkin, Mike B, has some staggering, 2-faced arrogance to accuse others of name-calling. Since administration here is clearly reluctant for whatever reason to show Mike the door (the reasons have been explained but I don’t undertsna them), then like guests at a particularly intelligent party, which I’d argue is an appropriate analogy, I suggest we do what all people in our situation would and should do. Simply ignore him until such time as he is shown the door. Yes, he presses buttons and knows just how to irritate us, as all malicious little trolls with no apparent life do, and as tempting as it is to get drawn into his little world because we do get passionate about these things, I suggest we have better fish to fry in terms of productive conversation as the hugely important elections of ‘08 loom upon us than waste the energy of our intellectual resources on him.
How many people here watch the network newscasts religiously every night? Few, I bet. Let’s ignore Mike B. He wastes precious time, energy and bandwidth for nothing.
Desert Lover,
Yes, striking first and then crying foul is the hallmark of most Democrats, virtually all hard-left libs and all intellectually vacuuous and dishonest people. It does make you wonder if they truly understand the difference between fact and fantasy, though, doesn’t it? I’m not engaging in hyperbole by the way, I really mean that - fantasy in this instance, when real-life stakes are in the mix, includes playing a game for the sake of winning, not on the merits of the competition.
JRL, good line about softball-baseball.
Conservative Cat and Lindsay (if your listening): At the next Yearly Malkin Convention, I’ll buy you both drinks.
Make mine a Mojito - and in the meantime, how about that list of ‘wedge-issues’ you keep talking about….
what are they exactly?
jrlingreenbay,
Did you hear a malicious left-wing voice making troublesome noise for the sake of itself? Something about drinks? I’ll ignore it. I think we all should.
Not a lot of debate from me on your point, Mr_C_C….
But I would, just for fun, like to hear what these ‘Wedge-Issues’ are that our liberal friend feels are unimportant…
JRL, just for you, the following are wedge issues, which ebb and flow, depending on what the polls say get people outraged. And, CC, I know you love my posts, although you hate yourself for it:
Gay Marriage
Assault Rifle Bans
Prayer in School
Partial Birth Abortion
Flag Burning Bans
To a lesser degree:
Capital punishment
School Vouchers
They are wedge issues because they divert attention for more important and pressing things. So, you have poor people getting excited about these matters. They get excited and vote Republican. No progress is made on these “issues.” The net result: More tax cuts for rich people and companies in big cities and suburbs who, in reality, are socially liberal and have total contempt for them. In fact, they only contact these CEO-types would have with poor people is when they serve them their dinner or drive their limos.
May I suggest “What’s the Matter With Kansas”
Ok, here we go….
Gay Marriage - this is not introduced by Conservatives - Liberals brought this point into the limelight be demanding equal rights for gays and lesbians in this arena.
Assault Rifle Bans - hardly an unimportant topic, as the liberals try to define any firearm they possibly can as an Assault Rifle - this is a 2nd amendment issue - and a constitutional issue is hardly ‘unimportant’.
Prayer in School - I haven’t heard anyone campaigning for this…have you? The only school / religion issues I’ve heard lately are the ones involving the left telling us to accept Muslim practices during schooltime - while disallowing any Christian symbolism. That is discrmination by the left. But, in this instance, I guess you feel that discrimination is ‘unimportant’.
Partial Birth Abortion - So we have individuals in this country who wish to begin to deliver a child - then kill it. Widely agreed upon as one of the most barbaric practices ever seen…. yet you feel it is ‘unimportant’?
Stacking prisoners in a pyramid at Abu Gharaib = Important. Murder of a partially born child = contrived wedge issue.
Flag Burning Bans - Has this been brought up in any debates lately? I haven’t heard about it? Who’s ‘wedging’ this issue in in front of Iraq, the Economy or anything else?
To a lesser degree:
Capital punishment - Who’s bringing this up? Mostly the left decrying it.
School Vouchers - A proposed solution to education problems - isn’t education important, Mike?
“So, you have poor people getting excited about these matters. They get excited and vote Republican.”
( Only poor people care about these things? That’s news to me. And it’s ridiculous for you to make that leap in logic that those are the ONLY issues that would sway these “poor people”. )
“No progress is made on these “issues.” The net result: More tax cuts for rich people and companies in big cities and suburbs who, in reality, are socially liberal and have total contempt for them. In fact, they only contact these CEO-types would have with poor people is when they serve them their dinner or drive their limos.”
( If these people receiving these tax-cuts are so socially liberal - then they can simply pay more taxes, right? What’s stopping them? Do you want to legislate compassion? If they have this desire to help their fellow man, we shouldn’t have to ask them to reject their tax cuts, they would be doing it on their own - gladly filling up the coffers of the Government to hand out to the less-advantaged? As a side-note, do you pay more than you’re asked to, Mike? Since you’re so concerned about those poor and disadvantaged? How many deductions to you take? How many ‘write offs’ do you use? How about John Edwards? Hillary? Barack? All of these candidates, and more, are the same ones in those limosines and at the dinner tables being served by those they want to “help”….)
JRL, I agree with you 100% about limousine liberals.
But, no one has answered my first question. Put it another way: Do you think health care and disappearing pensions (to cite two) are problems in this country? And, if so, what do Republicans propose to do about them?
You can say they’re individual or family or even local problems. However, most polling shows that most Americans want universal health care. If I was running against a Republican I would constantly drill that issue, day after day, and if he says nothing or everything is fine, he would lose. Or, in the alternate, he’d come up with a proposal to address it.
To answer your question:
Is health care a problem? Yes, but not for ALL. Why mess with, say, MY health care system when it works? I am middle-class, have insurance, pay hardly any deductibles, have had everything covered so far. But liberals want to mess with my system that works because about 15% of Americans don’t have health care during the year? No thanks.
Disappearing pensions - sure it’s a problem. Who said it wasn’t? What are Republican’s going to do about it? Ask them? I’m not running - I can’t answer for them.
Your issue of “most polling shows that most Americans want universal health care.” is one that is highly dubious. I’ll revert to a previous post I did on this topic of polls.
How can you call up 2000 people and say that their answers represent the thoughts, interests and desires of 300 million? I don’t care if you call up 40 people from each corner of every state, giving you a full 50 state sample… 40 people in one state do not represent the millions who live there.
I do not know more than a handful of people who I’ve spoken to on this issue ( and I do speak to both liberals and conservatives from all over the spectrum ) who advocate Government run health-care.
As for pensions - just curious - what about all that money that their union took from them? Where’s the union help ( besides complaining ) when these people need health-care or any other assistance? ( Here’s a hint - the Union Leaders couldn’t care less from the back of their limosines )
I agree with you JRL about unions/union leaders as well (this is a regular love fest). They certainly have repeatedly acted contrary to the long-term best interests of their members. They also are partially responsible for the predicament some of their members face.
As for polling, as someone answered you before, there is a science to it. You take representative samples and extrapolate. You would agree it’s impossible to poll 100% of the country. You can barely get over 50% of eligible voters to come out in Presidential elections every four years. But, if you don’t think health care is on the minds of voters today, I don’t think you have been paying attention.
Horsefeathers, Mike! Total rubbish. Do you think Big Labor Unions want “socialized medicine”? Despite what polls and pundits may say, that means BIG BUCKS leaving the control of Union administered health plans. Unions are becoming more irrelevant as it is….how does US GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED HEALTH BENEFITS help Big Labor? Not much.
Also, by most Americans, do you mean a simple majority of *CITIZENS* or does the poll include the squatters here from south of the border who are crashing hospital emergency rooms?
Also, does this “most Americans” nonsense of yours include the Millions of Americans who have health insurance as part of their employee benefit plans at work? As part of their small business management structure?
We who are part of these millions know that the quality of care would plummet and our taxes will increase by 20 to 30 per cent….and for what? Socialist failure and inefficiencies?
Universal health care is just plain and simple socialism. It is a losing proposition. The Dems can hammer that all they want. Informed consumers will bail on them hard and fast.
Cheap health care is crap. Here in California it gets you surgical instruments left inside you or at best Hepatitis because things don’t get sterilized properly.
No thanks, MikeB. I want my income taxes lowered and the “right to choose”.
I’m not saying it’s not on people’s minds…
Even with my general approval of my own situation with insurance / health care - I have complaints as well. It’s not perfect. But I do not see Govt. Healthcare as an improvement over what I have.
I understand the argument of there being a ’science’ to it. But I disagree with the conclusions that they are truly representative of, as they state in their conclusions, “the majority of AMERICANS” feel a certain way.
If they want to be accurate, IMHO, they should simply state the facts as they know them to be. “We polled 5000 registered voters across the country, and of those 5000 who responded, 55 % believe _________ ”
That is a much more intellectually honest manner of presenting those results, rather than attributing their statements to “All Americans”.
And - to make clear - I feel the same way about polls which lean right in results as well. I believe polls are used today as a way of making news - not reporting it. They also contribute to the ’shake-and-bake’ attitude of today’s media…we have to know NOW -
Exit polls, etc…. are just an example.
Right on, Bear….
I guess ‘pro-choice’ doesn’t extend to health care or education.
Bear and JRL, I, too, enjoy health benefits from my employer and pay extra for my daughters’ coverage. My position on the issue has nothing to do with my own situation. I also agree that polls are “not news” and abused by whomever wants to speak for “all Americans.” I still also agree that unions are dying out and very weak (except here in NYC where they run everything).
On the issue of universal coverage, let’s look at the facts: An auto company in the last year (Toyota, if I’m not mistaken) decided to build a plant in Canada rather than the US. Why? Because, as we always hear, health care costs add $1,000 to the cost of an American car which makes them uncompetitive. That is, our employer based health care system is making the US uncompetitive, certainly in heavy manufacturing.
And, with all due respect, government health care is more efficient, see this:
http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2006/06/policy_why_medi.html
JrL- Apparently not. They drag the Constitution into every discussion about present time under the “Bush Regime”- but they want to legislate out of existence any form of choice re Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
I’m still waiting for even a single jiberal or leftist to *ARTIC-U-LATE* which Constitutional right and/or civil liberty of *MINE* has been violated from 2001 to present day.
I can sure tell you this though, the Marxist run City of Berkeley California wants to force junk science down my throat in order to bring my “residence into alignment” with a foreign treaty not signed by the President or ratified by Congress- all in the name of saving the planet (and subsidizing “Green” (Al Gore approved businesses).
I will fight til I am dead to take back electoral politics in this city and take away the Liberal, Leftist, Anarcho-Communist control of our lives using unelected boards, commissions, and planning entities who are accountable to no one.
These people have created thousands of these entities all over the USA- and they set “policy”.
Enough.
CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. May 4-6, 2007. N=1,028 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“Do you think the government should provide a national health insurance program for all Americans, even if this would require higher taxes?”
5/4-6/2007
Yes 64%
No 35%
Unsure 2%
“Do you think the government should provide a national health insurance program for all children under the age of 18, even if this would require higher taxes?”
5/4-6/2007
Yes 73%
No 25%
Unsure 2%
Associated Press-AOL News Poll conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs. Dec. 19-21, 2006. N=1,004 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
“Do you favor or oppose the federal government making it easier for people to buy prescription drugs from other countries?”
12/19-21/2006
Favor 69%
Oppose 28%
Unsure 3%
THE MOST INTERESTING ONE
(This is from a year ago, indicating a possible rise in support sinc this poll was taken)
—————————————-
ABC News/Washington Post Poll. April 6-9, 2006. N=1,027 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.
“As you may know, a new law in Massachusetts would require all residents to have health insurance. Low-income residents would get state subsidies to help pay insurance premiums, but everyone would pay something for health services. The plan would penalize people without any insurance and charge fees to employers who don’t provide coverage. . . .”
MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Do you support or oppose this plan?”
NON-MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Would you support or oppose this plan in your state?”
Support Oppose Unsure
ALL adults 55% 41% 5%
Democrats 58% 37% 5%
Independents 58% 39% 3%
Republicans 49% 46% 5%
jrl… i think that this issue is pretty consistant in the results no matter what poll company is used
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — In a partnership of unlikely allies, Wal-Mart’s CEO, other corporate leaders and the head of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) called Wednesday for universal health care coverage for all Americans by 2012.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/07/news/companies/walmart_healthcare/index.htm
————————————–
AFL-CIO Executive Council: Universal Health Care Should Be Built on Medicare Blueprint
by Mike Hall, Mar 6, 2007
The 47-member AFL-CIO Executive Council today says because the nation is in desperate need of a universal health care system, such a system should be built upon:
The nation’s most successful universal health coverage plan for seniors—Medicare.
In a statement addressing the nation’s health care crisis, council members say:
It is time to mobilize America behind a concrete plan to enact universal health care and the AFL-CIO commits its full resources to asserting leadership in this historic effort.
http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/03/06/afl-cio-executive-council-universal-health-should-be-built-on-medicare-blueprint/
————————————–
In addition, Consumers Union, the parent of Consumer Reports, has lobbied for universal health care for most of its 70-year history.
http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2007/08/07/hscout607092.html
EDIT: Above statements are simply quotes, no words of my own.
It doesn’t matter which company is used - attributing the responses of approximately 1027 adults to the feeling of 300,000,000 is ludicrous.
As for civil liberties and the left….
they want you to be able to burn an American Flag - but in New York, they want to make it crime to use the word, “Bitch” or “Ho”…..
Trash the symbol of our country but get fined or go to jail for saying a word.
THAT, my friends, is Liberal logic ( I know, it’s an oxymoron, but what are you gonna do? )
Mike B
“And, CC, I know you love my posts, although you hate yourself for it:”
Boy you really are sick. No kidding.
You want a health care system for all based on medicare?
From http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05083/476873.stm :
“Medicare already has more money going out than coming in, and the 2003 Medicare prescription drug benefit has added significantly to Medicare’s financial obligations. The Congressional Budget Office recently predicted that the prescription drug benefit alone has added a $593 billion to the program’s costs between 2004 and 2013.”
And this is for a program that only covers 43 Million Americans. Consider the costs of covering 300 million or 6 times as many people.
All this is a recipe for skyrocketing taxes beyond anyone’s beliefs.
No thanks -
Duh. How many plants has Toyota built in the USA? Toyota’s calculus for determining where to locate a plant is very complex and looks at costs *over time* against profits from sales of the vehicles manufactured at any one location.
$1000 per car, eh? Cough up the source on that one.
Even the worst group plan in California administered by Ali Baba and his 40 thieves wouldn’t drive the unit price per car up that much.
And I didn’t say “unions are dying out”. I said they are becoming increasingly irrelevant. There is a difference. So, no, we don’t agree.
Mike- your little link leads to a specious argument re the “efficiency of Medicare”.
The US government rep quoted in that article claims that because private insurance businesses a) make a profit and b) spend 5 per cent of their revenue administering enrollment and disenrollment of customers, Medicare is therefore more efficient.
Medicare is a government service subsidized by American taxpayers. You bet it’s cheaper…but it is a ponzi scheme because the tax base is about to shrink considerably as the Baby Boomer “Pig in a Python” retirement trend begins to crest. Tax revenues will be lower; Medicare claims are going to go through the roof. The US government will have to sell off the debt created and print more money for our creditors to eat in return. Great plan. DOH!
The US Government is really good at selling stuff for less than it’s worth.
That is not efficient, Mike.
That’s socialism. And when services like medical care and health related services are put on the market on the cheap- quality and reliability go down.
Medicare is limited to a specific age group of 55 and older. “Universal healthcare” is from cradle to grave.
Huge difference.
And a huge disaster, despite what all the happy Canadians say and EU’ers say.
Or those freedom loving Cubans living under Castro.
My daughter is a dual citizen of the EU and US. Her EU tax rate makes me shiver. They have a tax for every itch and they don’t even let you scratch it yourself. Here is a parallel example:
Her car gave out so the government bought her a bike. Lower my taxes and I will buy a new car thank you.)
“Universal” health care won’t be “universal” at all. There will be a parallel economy for the wealthy who do not want to go to the government subsidized doctors or their hospitals with the rest of the country. And it will create a boom in “offshore” services.
The US government cannot control the laws of economics among supranational forces that do not want to submit to socialist/communist control of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
DarkKnight- Yes. I read that too.
Imagine what the bite will be on the Corporate tax rate. Enormous.
Now check this out:
Coing from a company that is being pressured to unionize while it’s profit margin is equal to the country’s trade deficit with China, I think it is a tactic aimed at compromise- by both Union and the Company.
They will talk a good game to shield themselves and be on “the right side of the issue”. But it is in their best interest to let this stinkbomb collapse under its own weight.
Wal-Mart takes a popular position alongside the Union; then, once the next two presidents figure out they can’t get a bill passed for “universal health care”, the current system will get overhauled with heavy “affordable” US government subsidies. Less expense for Wal-Mart to underwrite it than currently so.
In the meantime, the unionizing slows down because Wal-Mart is “pushing” for this malarky by 2012.
The union? What choice do they have at this point but to agree and be played like the putzes they are.
It’s a smokescreen.
“Citing polls as proof you’re on the right side of an argument is often a symptom of intellectual cowardice. If the crowd says two plus two equals seven, that’s no reason to invoke the authority of the crowd. But pundits and pols know that if they align themselves with the latest Gallup findings, they don’t have to defend their position on the merits because ‘the people’ are always right.” —Jonah Goldberg
Socialism is supposedly all about “the people” so it makes sense they who support it like to deal in polls.
Republicans cite polls as well Fineous. Republican Pollsters make the rounds just like Democrats at election time.
Here’s a surprise.
Posted on Drudge:
“MSNBC’s Olbermann-moderated debate averages less than one million viewers. Only 914,000 tune-in… Lowest rated debate of the 2007 political season… Developing… ”
Who wants to hear a preacher giving the sermon to the choir over and over again? Let’s get some REAL debating going and stop the Love Fests.
DarkKnight- I appreciate the way you have presented the facts as construed by the opinionnaires. I do.
MikeB comes out on top re the “most polls” show argument…but “most Americans” is up for contention.
Universal health care would be the largest Democrat job-creation program in our history since FDR.
The chances of this breaking out along partisan lines
gives it the same aroma as shamnesty— build voter blocs based on entitlements.
Not the best motivation for building an economic zeppelin.
out.