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101. #101
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:23 am, jrlingreenbay said:

     I’m not saying it’s not on people’s minds…

     Even with my general approval of my own situation with insurance / health care - I have complaints as well. It’s not perfect. But I do not see Govt. Healthcare as an improvement over what I have.

     I understand the argument of there being a ’science’ to it. But I disagree with the conclusions that they are truly representative of, as they state in their conclusions, “the majority of AMERICANS” feel a certain way.

     If they want to be accurate, IMHO, they should simply state the facts as they know them to be. “We polled 5000 registered voters across the country, and of those 5000 who responded, 55 % believe _________ ”

     That is a much more intellectually honest manner of presenting those results, rather than attributing their statements to “All Americans”.

     And - to make clear - I feel the same way about polls which lean right in results as well. I believe polls are used today as a way of making news - not reporting it. They also contribute to the ’shake-and-bake’ attitude of today’s media…we have to know NOW -
     Exit polls, etc…. are just an example.

102. #102
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:25 am, jrlingreenbay said:

     Right on, Bear….

     I guess ‘pro-choice’ doesn’t extend to health care or education.

103. #103
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:38 am, MikeB said:

     Bear and JRL, I, too, enjoy health benefits from my employer and pay extra for my daughters’ coverage. My position on the issue has nothing to do with my own situation. I also agree that polls are “not news” and abused by whomever wants to speak for “all Americans.” I still also agree that unions are dying out and very weak (except here in NYC where they run everything).

     On the issue of universal coverage, let’s look at the facts: An auto company in the last year (Toyota, if I’m not mistaken) decided to build a plant in Canada rather than the US. Why? Because, as we always hear, health care costs add $1,000 to the cost of an American car which makes them uncompetitive. That is, our employer based health care system is making the US uncompetitive, certainly in heavy manufacturing.

     And, with all due respect, government health care is more efficient, see this:

     http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2006/06/policy_why_medi.html

104. #104
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:47 am, bear1909 said:

     JrL- Apparently not. They drag the Constitution into every discussion about present time under the “Bush Regime”- but they want to legislate out of existence any form of choice re Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

     I’m still waiting for even a single jiberal or leftist to *ARTIC-U-LATE* which Constitutional right and/or civil liberty of *MINE* has been violated from 2001 to present day.

     I can sure tell you this though, the Marxist run City of Berkeley California wants to force junk science down my throat in order to bring my “residence into alignment” with a foreign treaty not signed by the President or ratified by Congress- all in the name of saving the planet (and subsidizing “Green” (Al Gore approved businesses).

     I will fight til I am dead to take back electoral politics in this city and take away the Liberal, Leftist, Anarcho-Communist control of our lives using unelected boards, commissions, and planning entities who are accountable to no one.

     These people have created thousands of these entities all over the USA- and they set “policy”.

     Enough.

105. #105
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:56 am, DarkKnight said:

     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:15 am, bear1909 said:
     ..most polling shows most that most Americans want universal health care…
     Horsefeathers, Mike! Total rubbish

     CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. May 4-6, 2007. N=1,028 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

     “Do you think the government should provide a national health insurance program for all Americans, even if this would require higher taxes?”

     5/4-6/2007

     Yes 64%
     No 35%
     Unsure 2%

     “Do you think the government should provide a national health insurance program for all children under the age of 18, even if this would require higher taxes?”

     5/4-6/2007

     Yes 73%
     No 25%
     Unsure 2%

     Associated Press-AOL News Poll conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs. Dec. 19-21, 2006. N=1,004 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.

     “Do you favor or oppose the federal government making it easier for people to buy prescription drugs from other countries?”

     12/19-21/2006

     Favor 69%
     Oppose 28%
     Unsure 3%

     THE MOST INTERESTING ONE
     (This is from a year ago, indicating a possible rise in support sinc this poll was taken)
     —————————————-

     ABC News/Washington Post Poll. April 6-9, 2006. N=1,027 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

     “As you may know, a new law in Massachusetts would require all residents to have health insurance. Low-income residents would get state subsidies to help pay insurance premiums, but everyone would pay something for health services. The plan would penalize people without any insurance and charge fees to employers who don’t provide coverage. . . .”
     MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Do you support or oppose this plan?”
     NON-MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Would you support or oppose this plan in your state?”

     Support Oppose Unsure

     ALL adults 55% 41% 5%
     Democrats 58% 37% 5%
     Independents 58% 39% 3%
     Republicans 49% 46% 5%

106. #106
     On August 8th, 2007 at 11:58 am, DarkKnight said:

     jrl… i think that this issue is pretty consistant in the results no matter what poll company is used

107. #107
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:08 pm, DarkKnight said:

     Do you think Big Labor Unions want “socialized medicine”? Despite what polls and pundits may say, that means BIG BUCKS leaving the control of Union administered health plans. Unions are becoming more irrelevant as it is….how does US GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED HEALTH BENEFITS help Big Labor? Not much.

     NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — In a partnership of unlikely allies, Wal-Mart’s CEO, other corporate leaders and the head of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) called Wednesday for universal health care coverage for all Americans by 2012.

     http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/07/news/companies/walmart_healthcare/index.htm
     ————————————–

     AFL-CIO Executive Council: Universal Health Care Should Be Built on Medicare Blueprint
     by Mike Hall, Mar 6, 2007

     The 47-member AFL-CIO Executive Council today says because the nation is in desperate need of a universal health care system, such a system should be built upon:

     The nation’s most successful universal health coverage plan for seniors—Medicare.

     In a statement addressing the nation’s health care crisis, council members say:

     It is time to mobilize America behind a concrete plan to enact universal health care and the AFL-CIO commits its full resources to asserting leadership in this historic effort.

     http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/03/06/afl-cio-executive-council-universal-health-should-be-built-on-medicare-blueprint/
     ————————————–

     In addition, Consumers Union, the parent of Consumer Reports, has lobbied for universal health care for most of its 70-year history.

     http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2007/08/07/hscout607092.html

108. #108
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:09 pm, DarkKnight said:

     EDIT: Above statements are simply quotes, no words of my own.

109. #109
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:11 pm, jrlingreenbay said:

     It doesn’t matter which company is used - attributing the responses of approximately 1027 adults to the feeling of 300,000,000 is ludicrous.

     As for civil liberties and the left….
     they want you to be able to burn an American Flag - but in New York, they want to make it crime to use the word, “Bitch” or “Ho”…..

     Trash the symbol of our country but get fined or go to jail for saying a word.

     THAT, my friends, is Liberal logic ( I know, it’s an oxymoron, but what are you gonna do? )

110. #110
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:18 pm, Mr_Conservative_Cat said:

     Mike B

     “And, CC, I know you love my posts, although you hate yourself for it:”

     Boy you really are sick. No kidding.

111. #111
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:19 pm, jrlingreenbay said:

     You want a health care system for all based on medicare?

     From http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05083/476873.stm :

     “Medicare already has more money going out than coming in, and the 2003 Medicare prescription drug benefit has added significantly to Medicare’s financial obligations. The Congressional Budget Office recently predicted that the prescription drug benefit alone has added a $593 billion to the program’s costs between 2004 and 2013.”

     And this is for a program that only covers 43 Million Americans. Consider the costs of covering 300 million or 6 times as many people.

     All this is a recipe for skyrocketing taxes beyond anyone’s beliefs.

     No thanks -

112. #112
     On August 8th, 2007 at 12:28 pm, bear1909 said:

     Mike B said “On the issue of universal coverage, let’s look at the facts: An auto company in the last year (Toyota, if I’m not mistaken) decided to build a plant in Canada rather than the US. Why? Because, as we always hear, health care costs add $1,000 to the cost of an American car which makes them uncompetitive. That is, our employer based health care system is making the US uncompetitive, certainly in heavy manufacturing.”

     Duh. How many plants has Toyota built in the USA? Toyota’s calculus for determining where to locate a plant is very complex and looks at costs *over time* against profits from sales of the vehicles manufactured at any one location.

     $1000 per car, eh? Cough up the source on that one.

     Even the worst group plan in California administered by Ali Baba and his 40 thieves wouldn’t drive the unit price per car up that much.

     And I didn’t say “unions are dying out”. I said they are becoming increasingly irrelevant. There is a difference. So, no, we don’t agree.

     Mike- your little link leads to a specious argument re the “efficiency of Medicare”.

     The US government rep quoted in that article claims that because private insurance businesses a) make a profit and b) spend 5 per cent of their revenue administering enrollment and disenrollment of customers, Medicare is therefore more efficient.

     Medicare is a government service subsidized by American taxpayers. You bet it’s cheaper…but it is a ponzi scheme because the tax base is about to shrink considerably as the Baby Boomer “Pig in a Python” retirement trend begins to crest. Tax revenues will be lower; Medicare claims are going to go through the roof. The US government will have to sell off the debt created and print more money for our creditors to eat in return. Great plan. DOH!

     The US Government is really good at selling stuff for less than it’s worth.

     That is not efficient, Mike.

     That’s socialism. And when services like medical care and health related services are put on the market on the cheap- quality and reliability go down.

     Medicare is limited to a specific age group of 55 and older. “Universal healthcare” is from cradle to grave.

     Huge difference.

     And a huge disaster, despite what all the happy Canadians say and EU’ers say.
     Or those freedom loving Cubans living under Castro.

     My daughter is a dual citizen of the EU and US. Her EU tax rate makes me shiver. They have a tax for every itch and they don’t even let you scratch it yourself. Here is a parallel example:

     Her car gave out so the government bought her a bike. Lower my taxes and I will buy a new car thank you.)

     “Universal” health care won’t be “universal” at all. There will be a parallel economy for the wealthy who do not want to go to the government subsidized doctors or their hospitals with the rest of the country. And it will create a boom in “offshore” services.

     The US government cannot control the laws of economics among supranational forces that do not want to submit to socialist/communist control of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

113. #113
     On August 8th, 2007 at 1:01 pm, bear1909 said:

     DarkKnight- Yes. I read that too.

     Imagine what the bite will be on the Corporate tax rate. Enormous.

     Now check this out:

     Coing from a company that is being pressured to unionize while it’s profit margin is equal to the country’s trade deficit with China, I think it is a tactic aimed at compromise- by both Union and the Company.

     They will talk a good game to shield themselves and be on “the right side of the issue”. But it is in their best interest to let this stinkbomb collapse under its own weight.

     Wal-Mart takes a popular position alongside the Union; then, once the next two presidents figure out they can’t get a bill passed for “universal health care”, the current system will get overhauled with heavy “affordable” US government subsidies. Less expense for Wal-Mart to underwrite it than currently so.

     In the meantime, the unionizing slows down because Wal-Mart is “pushing” for this malarky by 2012.

     The union? What choice do they have at this point but to agree and be played like the putzes they are.

     It’s a smokescreen.

114. #114
     On August 8th, 2007 at 2:52 pm, Fineous Reese said:

     “Citing polls as proof you’re on the right side of an argument is often a symptom of intellectual cowardice. If the crowd says two plus two equals seven, that’s no reason to invoke the authority of the crowd. But pundits and pols know that if they align themselves with the latest Gallup findings, they don’t have to defend their position on the merits because ‘the people’ are always right.” —Jonah Goldberg

     Socialism is supposedly all about “the people” so it makes sense they who support it like to deal in polls.

115. #115
     On August 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pm, DarkKnight said:

     Republicans cite polls as well Fineous. Republican Pollsters make the rounds just like Democrats at election time.

116. #116
     On August 8th, 2007 at 4:49 pm, jrlingreenbay said:

     Here’s a surprise.

     Posted on Drudge:

     “MSNBC’s Olbermann-moderated debate averages less than one million viewers. Only 914,000 tune-in… Lowest rated debate of the 2007 political season… Developing… ”

     Who wants to hear a preacher giving the sermon to the choir over and over again? Let’s get some REAL debating going and stop the Love Fests.

117. #117
     On August 8th, 2007 at 9:08 pm, bear1909 said:

     DarkKnight- I appreciate the way you have presented the facts as construed by the opinionnaires. I do.

     MikeB comes out on top re the “most polls” show argument…but “most Americans” is up for contention.

     Universal health care would be the largest Democrat job-creation program in our history since FDR.

     The chances of this breaking out along partisan lines
     gives it the same aroma as shamnesty— build voter blocs based on entitlements.

     Not the best motivation for building an economic zeppelin.

     out.

Comment pages: « 1 [2]