Winter Soldier Syndrome
The tale of Army Private Scott Thomas Beauchamp, the discredited “Baghdad Diarist” for the discredited New Republic magazine, is an old tale:
Self-aggrandizing soldier recounts war atrocities. Media outlets disseminate soldier’s tales uncritically. Military folks smell a rat and poke holes in tales too good (or rather, bad) to be true. Soldier’s ideological sponsors blame the messengers for exposing anti-war fraud.
Beauchamp belongs in the same ward as John F. Kerry, the original infectious agent of the toxic American disease known as Winter Soldier Syndrome. The ward is filling up.
U.S. military investigators concluded this week that Beauchamp concocted allegations of troop misconduct in a series of essays for The New Republic. “The investigation is complete and the allegations from PVT Beauchamp are false,” Major Steven Lamb, a spokesman for Multi National Division-Baghdad, told USA Today. The New Republic is standing by Beauchamp’s work. But Michael Goldfarb, online editor and blogger at The Weekly Standard who first challenged Beauchamp’s writing, reported Monday that Beauchamp had “signed a sworn statement admitting that all three articles he published in The New Republic were exaggerations and falsehoods — fabrications containing only ‘a smidgen of truth,’ in the words of our source.”
To illustrate the soul-deadening impact of war, Beauchamp had described sitting in a mess hall in Iraq mocking a female civilian contractor whose face had “melted” after an IED explosion. “I love chicks that have been intimate — with IEDs,” Pvt. Beauchamp claimed he said out loud in her earshot. “It really turns me on — melted skin, missing limbs, plastic noses.” Beauchamp recounted vividly: “My friend was practically falling out of his chair laughing. The disfigured woman slammed her cup down and ran out of the chow hall.” It wasn’t true. After active-duty troops, veterans, embedded journalists and bloggers raised pointed questions about the veracity of the anecdote, Beauchamp confessed to The New Republic’s meticulous fact-checkers that the mocking had taken place in Kuwait— before he had set foot in Iraq to experience the soul-deadening impact of war.
Military officials in Kuwait tried to verify the incident and called it an “urban legend or myth.” Beauchamp’s essays are filled with similarly spun tales. How much of a bull-slinger was Beauchamp, an aspiring creative writer who crowed on his personal blog that he would “return to America an author” after serving (which he told friends and family would “add a legitimacy to EVERYTHING I do afterwards”)? The very first line of his essay “Shock Troops,” which opened with the melted-face mockery, was this: “I saw her nearly every time I went to dinner in the chow hall at my base in Iraq.”
“Nearly every time.” At “my base in Iraq.” Complete and utter bull.
Defenders of The New Republic, a left-leaning magazine infamously duped by another young and ambitious fabulist, Stephen Glass, say the Beauchamp saga has been 1) blown out of proportion; 2) perpetuated by sloppy, rumor-mongering bloggers; 3) used as a distraction from the troubles in Iraq; and 4) exploited by “chickenhawks” who deny that war atrocities happen.
But the truth is, you won’t find a single Bush Kool-Aid drinker among the military bloggers, embedded independent journalists, and active-duty troops who prominently questioned the Beauchamp sham. They know it ain’t all going swimmingly overseas. But unlike Pvt. Beauchamp, they’re committed to telling the whole truth about the war, not just approximations and embellishments that will score easy magazine gigs and future book deals with elite New York City publishers. The doubters of Scott Thomas know atrocities when they see them. But, unlike the TNR editors, they know steaming bull dung when they smell it.
http://www.youtube.com/v/M7_Si6JYUI8
Ever since John Kerry sat in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and accused American soldiers of wantonly razing villages “in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan,” the Left has embraced a small cadre of self-loathing soldiers and soldier wannabes willing to sell their deadened souls for the anti-war cause.
Think Jimmy Massey, the unhinged Marine who falsely accused his unit of engaging in mass genocide against Iraqis.
http://www.youtube.com/v/ia_003j9nZg
Think Jesse MacBeth and Micah Wright, anti-war Army Rangers who weren’t Army Rangers.
http://www.youtube.com/v/5Pmg2Pr4SkA
Think Josh Lansdale, the anti-war Army medic who attacked former GOP Sen. Jim Talent by spinning a bogus health care tale swallowed whole by Dem Sen. Claire McCaskill, Gen. Wesley Clark and the far Left VoteVets.org crew.
http://www.youtube.com/v/5XX7R-MjFzI
Think Amorita Randall, the NYTimes-championed former naval construction worker who told the Times magazine that she served in Iraq, was in a Humvee that blew up, and was raped twice while serving in the Navy–but, in fact, had never served in Iraq.
Winter Soldier Syndrome will only be cured when the costs of slandering the troops outweigh the benefits. Exposing Scott Thomas Beauchamp and his brethren matters because the truth matters. The honor of the military matters. The credibility of the media matters.
Think it doesn’t make a difference? Imagine where Sen. John Kerry would be now if the Internet had been around in 1971.
***
More:
Scott Johnson at Power Line points to another Winter Soldier Syndrome candidate profiled in, you guessed it, The New Republic.
See what others have said
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- Cornell’s Winter Soldier at Haemet
Excellent piece, Michelle. I had forgotten just how many of those “winter soldiers” there have been. When you put them all together like that, it has a real impact. It’s funny, I don’t recall a single soldier being accused of making up false stories to further the cause for war. I guess when you’re honorable and truthful, you don’t need to make things up.
Beauchamp, 23, who is married to New Republic reporter Elspeth Reeve,: This information has been subdued or totally left out of the reporting on this issue. It would have helped to know the relationship between, SB and his wife and magazine were there. He obviously is lying but now we know the connnection between him and the NR.
This guy must be a huge fan of James Frey.
Bob68. Where did you find that out? If that’s true, that is HUGE! That means that TNR knew all along that the stories were false. That’s a whole different ballgame.
Another great job Michelle. No, they dont’ support the troops only the troops that they feel committed some atrocity or the votevets group which I’m sure old Scott will be a proud member of and a proud speaker for.
Gregorystephens, I think Bill Kristol’s magazine uncovered that bit about him being married to the girl who also worked there. TNR though will claim they didn’t know that his statements were false but honestly, I don’t think they’re really backing away from the “verocity of his statements”.
gregorystephens: If you’re referring to Beauchamps marriage to a TNR reporter - that has been reported.
There’s been numerous comments all over about it.
But, as you clearly demonstrate - since this is a ‘non-story’ to the MSM - the public, outside of blogs, will never know the “Plame-like” coincidences in this story.
Michelle, another excellent compilation! Please please try to bring this up on Fox and anywhere else you have a little “juice”! Not nearly enough people are aware.
Thanks guys. How could I have missed that one? I guess I need to tighten up.
Can we expect to see anything regarding this story on O’Rielly or Hannity & Colmes? If either or both of these programs details this outrage then the MSM and other Drive-By’s will HAVE to report and comment on it.
Well, there’s STB’s direct link to Kerry…
Gee swj…. sounds like ‘Perjury’ to me….
They are all LOSERS! We need more of this to shut up the left wing nuts. All these soldiers(?) should be disbarred, disbannded and left to support their troops….the Kerry’s and all alike. Disgusting.
The scary part:
John F’in’ Kerry still got 48% of the electorate to vote for him.
Each of these liars needs to be exposed.
However, I’m uncomfortable with the overall framing of soldiers who speak out against the war being cast as traitors.
I am draft age and a war supporter. I have not been willing to enlist. These are men and women who have made a sacrifice that I have been unwilling to make. They deserve a baseline of respect and an honest hearing from us, even if we don’t agree with their ideas.
I think Michelle’s posting comes dangerously close to suggesting that we need to shut up soldiers when they tell us things we don’t like.
Excellent work, Michelle. This information goes a long, long way in countering the Leftist view of the war and the world.
What will be the tipping point for Americans when they realize they have been scammed by the MSM?
derel3433–
You need to re-read my piece, which is about liars, frauds, and B.S. artists. What “baseline of respect” do they deserve? None.
What amazes me about the media in general is the lack of critical thinking and analysis by journalists. They are so pressed for time that they do not fact check or they report idiotic touchy-feely stories that are meaningless to anyone with a brain. The MN bridge collapse had wall to wall coverage for about 4 or 5 days. Anna Nichol Smith had wall to wall coverage for weeks. I can assure you that the state of America’s bridges and the use of illegal aliens to do critical work on those bridges is of far greater consequence then how Smith, whose life style was utterly self destructive, died.
I guess that settles that.
My last post was in regards to #15.
Michelle,
This article is really very beautifully written.
“Self-aggrandizing soldier recounts war atrocities. Media outlets disseminate soldier’s tales uncritically. Military folks smell a rat and poke holes in tales too good (or rather, bad) to be true. Soldier’s ideological sponsors blame the messengers for exposing anti-war fraud.”
That’s it in a nutshell. And yes, like all crimes we see on the upsurge as certain breeds of criminal grow to understand what is punished in our society currently and what is not, it will take the loud broadcast of harsh penalties to dampen their enthusiasm for stardom built on creating flase, negative reputations of those who fight - and die - for among other things a society free enough to allow guys like this to try to build a fan-base for themselves using such tactics.
He likely has some the the emotional illness he seems to telegraph loudly in his writings, but if he’s well enough to know right from wrong, then he should be punished severely for this gross and malicious behavior.
It’s time for some of this country’s loose ends to straighten up and fly right. Right away.
derel3433:
They sold out any “baseline” they might have had when they slandered the noble organization they chose to become a part of for their own ends.
If a person decides she / he wants to do charity medical work of some kind overseas then defrauds his charity agency in some way and steals money, they throw out any “baseline” they had. The same applies here.
Though we don’t like to admit it, the military has its share of complete losers that are unworthy of respect. Just because they wandered into a recruiting office one day and didn’t decide to desert and run to Canada when they were called to duty in Iraq, does not mean that they are worthy of respect. Especially, as MM pointed out, when they are liars, frauds, etc. The military usually does a good job of processing these folks out though eventually.
Exactamundo Michelle #15, They make me sick.
I think, you’re dangerously close to sounding like a troll.
There’s a big difference between exposing a liar, and expounding the unvarnished truth.
If an atrocity has been committed, I want to know about it…But, a fake atrocity passed as truth ain’t cuttin’ it.
Does E.Watada fall into this group or is he a different species of Golum?
Same genus, different species.
franksalterego,
I don’t think he was trying to sound like a troll. I think we all agree on this:
But I think he meant that just because a soldier says something we don’t want to hear about the war doesn’t mean we should assume he (or she) is a liar just because of these examples.
Same heinous…different feces
Ahhh derel3433, I reread what you had to say. You are not talking about these liars and frauds, but you are saying that basically, if an anti-war liberal type was serving that we should respect thier ideas because they are willing to serve.
Well, one could say the same about any American in general just based on them being our fellow Americans and being in a spirit of bi-partisanship.
HOWEVER, there are just a few anti-war, fifth column leftist ideas that are too vile to respect.
On top of that, there is the pesky issue of UCMJ and the fact that soldiers HAVE to support the war and can not openly make any disparging comments about the CnC.
So, with those things in mind, it’s a bit difficult to “respect the ideas of” anti-war soldiers. It’s almost an oxymoron, almost.
Re 26 - Agreed! After 54 yrs of marriage, we have concluded “they” are born that way…there is no other explanation. Keep up the great work, Michelle!
I did re-read your post MM and the implication is (as the commentors have picked up on) that when soldiers tell us things we don’t like to hear, they are probably lying and self-aggrandizing. That makes me very uncomfortable.
Most of these “winter soldier” tales remind me of the classic musicians anecdote about a bass player who accidentally sat on a Pomeranian and then stuffed the dog’s carcass inside a grand piano. Every new generation of bass players has heard this misdeed attributed to one musician or another, yet no one can really say for sure whether it ever happened or not.
Regardless of what John Kerry believes, our troops are not stupid, and my sense about all of this is that they smoked Beauchamp out as an arrogant, haughty smartypants as soon as he deployed; he might just as well have hung a sign around his neck saying, “Kick me.”
When all is said and done in this matter, the soldiers and Marines who fed Beauchamp heaping spoonfuls of old military lore and tall tales and outright BS will be the ones who get the last laugh.
Former KGB General Ion Mihai Pacepa puts this anti-military, anti-American propaganda in perspective in his article, Propaganda Redux, in the Wall Street Journal Online. Pacepa was assigned to propagate exactly this kind of propaganda during the Cold War and knows how false it is. Read the link.
derel3433 negligently wrote, “I think Michelle’s posting comes dangerously close to suggesting that we need to shut up soldiers when they tell us things we don’t like.”
What is dangerous is being so negligent with your accusations. Michelle’s post is simply addressing liars, made up stories, the press lapping up these falsehoods and reporting them upon the unsuspecting public.
Please tell us WHERE in Michelle’s post she did anything close to what you accused her of. Which sentence? Which paragraph. Which of these exposed liars are you saying are truth tellers?
derel3433 - you are reading implications into my article that aren’t there. READ:
On August 8th, 2007 at 10:45 am, derel3433 said:
“I did re-read your post MM and the implication is (as the commentors have picked up on) that when soldiers tell us things we don’t like to hear, they are probably lying and self-aggrandizing. That makes me very uncomfortable.”
What part of “lies” do you not understand? It’s not a matter of what we don’t want to hear - as in Liberals not wanting to hear about the surge in Iraq working - it’s a matter of truth and facts. Beauchamp knows neither.
#32On August 8th, 2007 at 10:45 am, MikeOK said:
“When all is said and done in this matter, the soldiers and Marines who fed Beauchamp heaping spoonfuls of old military lore and tall tales and outright BS will be the ones who get the last laugh.”
I think, Mike, your comment tends to lessen Private Beauchamp’s own goals in all this. He came into the military hoping to come out a literary hero. His desire to achieve accolades as a spokesman for the atrocities of war, aka, a Winter Soldier for the 21st century, makes his own motives more culpable than simply being a victim of some other soldier’s taking advantage of him.
derel3433 wrote, “I did re-read your post MM and the implication is (as the commentors have picked up on) that when soldiers tell us things we don’t like to hear, they are probably lying and self-aggrandizing. That makes me very uncomfortable.”
Well derel… you can react in one of 3 ways…
1) Reading these stories had no emotional effect on you…. in which case one has no conscience
2) Reading these stories confirms your beliefs and you are more prone to print the stories to share with others.
3) Reading these stories makes you feel that if these stories are true then people need to be held accountable and if they aren’t true the accusers need to be held accountable - I’ll choose option #3 EACH time.
Do you know why Derel? Because it’s responsible. Option #2 is negligent. Is that what you want us all to be? Negligent?
It’s what your accusation is too. Negligent.
You leave out the contrary view that we ALL hold. We hope the stories aren’t true. But the contrary view that we hold is that if there are people in the military committing crimes or who are evil to the core that we WANT THEM OUT AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
Michelle’s post has nothing to do with any of the idiots who truly have done wrong in the military. Just like in every big organization (General Motors, Microsoft, the military, the DNC, the RNC) there are bad apples.
BTW - When I was in the Navy from 1988 - 1994 there was an idiot.
I was driving a shuttle. I picked up passengers. One of them was drunk (I didn’t know it). On the shuttle he punched somebody and made their nose bleed. I dropped him off and within seconds of getting off the shuttle he cold clocked some unsuspecting passerby who had to have his jaw wired shut for a month.
Guess what - I identified him he was court martialed and went to the brig.
And guess what? During my years in the civilian world I’ve met idiots who have done wrong and not held accountable.
And guess what else. I was able to tell this story and I won’t catch flack for it.
jrlingreenbay,
You are absolutely right; I meant as much when I said that his buddies probably knew right away that he was “an arrogant, haughty smartypants.” They knew what he was looking for, and spoon-fed it to him. His own agenda-driven stupidity was what made him believe that he could build a literary career out of recycled Army and Marine lore.
Well I for one would love to be a fly on the wall of the Beauchamp home when he comes back to his darling TNR employed wife. I’m sure his total BS story will have no impact whatsoever on the trust and honesty good relationships are based on.
Ok, I think you’re all, including MM, missing derel’s point. These “winter soldiers” are soldiers, nonetheless, and for that fact alone they deserve respect. It is never okay, to lie (hear that Al Gonzalez).
This is similar to the fact that after Pat Tillman was “outted” as a quasi-liberal (atheist, reader of Noam Chomsky, opposed to the Iraq invasion) Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly “couldn’t believe it” and then when it was proved, never mentioned him again.
Michelle …
Really a well written and great article … Truly a “Rogue’s Gallery” in that line-up … Thanks as always …
I can only express my feelings about the falsehoods these individuals spouted as fact as follows:
He would be on the same “ash-heap of history” that will soon be the home Fauxchamp and his ilk from this war.
In Kerry’s time there was no blogosphere filled with handwriting, Photoshop and military experts able to poke holes in his story. There was no advocate for the accused in the media.
But there is now.
If the Internet had been around in 1971 then the Disco versions of Michelle Malkin, LGF, Hot Air, miliblogers, etc (just picture them all with big hair and bellbottoms) would have exposed him just like they did the rest.
No MikeB. Soldiers don’t deserve respect simply for being soldiers if they make horrible soldiers.
To be honest, though one must honor his sacrifice, I was not terribly impressed with Pat Tillman at any point. But thats another story.
On August 8th, 2007 at 11:23 am, MikeB said:
“These “winter soldiers” are soldiers, nonetheless, and for that fact alone they deserve respect.”
( As soldiers, yes, they deserve respect - however they LOSE that respect when they lie and make up false stories about their fellow soldiers to enflame an already hotbed issue and to inflate their own importance, all during a time of war )
“This is similar to the fact that after Pat Tillman was “outted” as a quasi-liberal (atheist, reader of Noam Chomsky, opposed to the Iraq invasion) Sean Hannity and Bill ’Reilly “couldn’t believe it” and then when it was proved, never mentioned him again.”
This is not even close to similar - Pat Tillman, and other soldiers currently serving, did and do so without creating vicious lies about their comrades or undermining the war effort. Pat Tillman, regardless of his political viewpoints, served honorably and is a true ’soldier’.
zeroangel:
You have to understand the liberal mind. A President who lies to a grand jury was just lying about sex.
DON’T feed the trolls.
Michelle - that has to be some of your best work yet. I was out of the country for a few days and couldn’t wait to get back and log on. This story just made the wait worth the while. Thanks!
jrlingreenbay
nail/head
Two things, Michelle:
First, the passage above nails it. There will always be real and imagined former servicemembers who will regale friends and family with their embellished or bogus tales of derring-do; what “Winter Soldier Syndrome” does is to make some of those people want to shout from the rooftops, thinking it’ll get them their 15 minutes of fame. Disabusing such people of that notion will have a significant salutary effect.
Second, I’ve been hoping that someone would put together a compendium of “storytellers” like Kerry, Macbeth and Beauchamp; and what you’ve done here is precisely what I’ve been looking for. Nicely done.
Mike B negligently wrote, “These “winter soldiers” are soldiers, nonetheless,”
um. Mike some of these WEREN’T soldiers.
Regulus
Well said … my kids have often asked me why I rarely discuss my time in Viet Nam … (This is usually after they have heard someone expounding on that war) … my answer has always been … the ones that talk about it the most often times are not telling the truth and in many cases were never even there … those of us that were there know the truth and have no need to try to impress anyone else by talking about it …
And everybody deserves respect … until they lie.
Too bad Mrs. Malkin, the internet and her 5 billion gigabyte laptop were not around in the 60’s. A few days ago a soldier spoke at the Kos convention in uniform. The Kos people were all about Army regulations then. What about Senator Kerry? He spoke in front of congress with his uniform. Kerry wore his military uniform improperly. His hair was out of regulation, he was missing his cover (when outside) and he was wearing the wrong uniform for the occasion. One should not be allowed to wear combat utilities to congress. The statements Kerry made were outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!! If all these war crimes were going on under his leadership, why didn’t he report them to his chain of command? If my Marines want to frag me because I reported war crimes, then so be it. Not reporting war crimes says something about senator Kerry’s character. Is that why his mother told him “integrity, integrity” before she died? If Mrs. Malkin was around in the 60’s John Kerry would have been fried chorizo!
Image: Mrs. Malkin holding a microphone, ready to do an interview, wearing 60’s garb, with a flower in her hair——priceless.
And those Pants! Groovy man….
As usual, to the left like Mike B and whatever the other troll’s name is (could be Mike B supporting himself under a different alias to give himself credibility; Trolls do that sometimes) US soldiers ate torturers, baby killers, occupiers and the rest until you find one soldier - that lone one out of 10,000, the abberration, that exception to the overwhelming rule - who trashes US interests and then suddenly for as long as that one abberation is news the US soldiers suddenly deserve respect. Until the story passes. And then the left go back to accusing US soldiers of atrocities again.
Mike B and his ilk have a mental illness. That’s the only explaination for it.
We get enough of their hateful rhetoric in the physical world - let’s ignore them here.
ajmontana
Michelle in her Tie-Dye clothes with a headband and flowers in her hair … standing in front of her VW Bus painted with flowers and peace symbols …
Now that is quite an image … lol
You can respect a position, like being a Soldier or President of the United States, but personal respect is EARNED. Every single one of these “winter soldiers” showed they not only don’t deserve personal respect, but respect for their positions also.
derel Check out USS Barbel (WWII sub adopted by Wyoming) and you’ll learn the real meaning of “uncomfortable”! My brother is on eternal patrol and my grandson volunteered to secure your freedoms - and mine - be thankful.
In response to the NY Times story by Amorita Randall……
That poor couch!!!!!!!!!! Somebody get a hydraulic jack!!!!!
Ignore who!
I may be reading implications into the post that aren’t there, but I’m not alone here–I’m referring to those who wrote that we need to make soldiers who speak out pay a price, and suggested that a soldier with antiwar views is an oxymoron. Those are dangerous ideas, and I reject them.
We need to be critical of everything we learn through the media. We need to expose frauds. There is no need to defend liars.
Nevertheless, I read this post (especially as it is framed as “an old tale”) as an effort to innoculate us against soldiers who express information that runs counter to our ideas. It’s an act of pre-emptive censorship–a shot across the bough–that would serve to warn any soldier against speaking out. They must know that they will pay.
Seems to me to be the equivalent of the YearlyKos people who upbraided the soldier for speaking out while in uniform as if they care about the UCMJ. It was an effort to silence him.
derel3433
What you apparently are failing to recognize in your comparison to the YKos incident is very simple …
The Sergeant was standing up against lies …
These others are all liars …
Not the same thing at all …
A soldier that I respect would want to end a war by defeating the enemy.
These “soldiers” want to end the war by defeating the country they serve with lies and deception.
What’s respectable about that?
Then you reject a strawman argument.
You see, every real soldier dislikes war. No one - not even us war-lovin’ righties - like war.
However, sometimes you have to fight, and when that time comes it is every soldiers duty to shut up and get on board. It’s in the rules. You signed on, you volunteered. Now get ready to ship.
That doesn’t mean they have to like it, and it doesn’t mean that on their own time/turf (like a blog or in e-mails) they can’t complain. So long as OpSec is followed, it’s fine (within limits… public criticism of commanders is still bad for obvious reasons).
And I think we should be thankful for those who criticize.
The ones who should be shut up, and who MUST be punished are those that lie. Who fabricate. Who invent tales.
The issue behind the “Old Tale” is that what Kerry said to congress wasn’t merely dissent. It was false, every bit of it. He lied, and was never held accountable for that.
Bring facts, and we’ll get along fine.
Bring nothing but lies, and prepare to have your feelings hurt.
Bring lies that besmirch the good name of this country’s Military, and prepare to have more than your feelings hurt.
derel accuses, “It’s an act of pre-emptive censorship–a shot across the bough–that would serve to warn any soldier against speaking out.”
No. Lying. Slandering. Libeling.
It’s as if I started lying about my boss.
The employees around me and ex employees would stand up for her.
And we all would feel that the accuser (me) should be held accountable.
You can’t go making allegations of crimes (like rape) and expect to be free of any charges.
Let me simplify it for you. There is no censorship (pre-emptive or otherwise) going on here. Every example that MM brought up was made a public elsewhere and is exposed for the fraud it is. If there is going to be a warning shot across the bow, I say I am all for letting “soldiers” know if you lie, we are coming after you to expose you for the liar (I would use traitor myself) that you are.
“It’s an act of pre-emptive censorship–a shot across the bough–that would serve to warn any soldier against speaking out. They must know that they will pay.”
If they, as all of the examples MM has offered, LIE and create false stories to bolster a political opinion - then yes, they must pay for their lack of ethics and their irresponsible behavior.
ESPECIALLY during a time of war. No one here is asking for soldiers to ’shut up & do your job’. Soldiers have opinions too and they are welcome sights to this group.
However - what is unwelcome and will be cast into the light each and every time it occurs - is the politically and personally motivated, unsubstantiated and at times imaginatively created falsehoods portrayed by the likes of Beauchamp, Kerry and others.
Speak all you want - but speak the truth - and MM and the rest of us will support you.
Case in point - I don’t think any regular poster here would disagree that the misinformation given out by the Military powers that be regarding the friendly fire death of Pat Tillman were acceptable.
It was a mistake made in war - and should have been admitted to - regardless of how it made things “look”.
derel3433:
swj719AWG said it better than I was going to; in any case I’ll attempt to clarify:
What I said was:
ALMOST being the operative word.
You see, as it was pointed out, it’s one thing for a soldier to voice his opinions to his similiarly ranked comarades, his friends, family, etc.
Its another to be openly and publically anti-war or speak out against his commanders. That kind of stuff is against UCMJ and against what it means to be a soldier.
Hence, an anti-war soldier is something of an oxymoron. It’s a bit hard to respect the (public) ideas of an anti-war soldier who, by his actions, is openly breaking UCMJ at the least, and at the worst (in the cases mentioned) lying to be able to grandstand. Not very respectful, IMHO.
Now, if a soldier were to refuse illegal orders and/or report actual atrocities through the chain of command, that is something entriely different. But that isn’t what we are talking about.
With all due respect, some of you still don’t get it. Derel, and he can correct me if I’m wrong, is calling for protection of whistle-blowers in uniform. The soldier who blew the whistle on abu Garab prison was shunned and abused (if you saw that 60 Minutes piece). He told the truth and “paid the price.” Anything less than the truth is not acceptable. However, how many of you are willing to defend truth tellers who expose bad acts by our troops and condemn people who retaliate against them.
derel3433 and/or MikeB (one and the same?)
Your arguments are specious at best. This is simply another in your long line of entries meant solely to vent your personal dislike of our hostess.
Unless and until you can bring arguments that are grounded in fact, backed by clear examples in MM’s writing of her supposed prejudices, then as far as I’m concerned you are and will remain a . . .
Troll. Plain and simple.
I know I am late to the party but for Daryl 3433.
You need to go read more of the milblogs. They are not all roses and wine. There is no attempt to silence anybody’s voice, it is just the fact that what you are saying must be true, accurate, and free of prejudices. STB failed on all of those. I read plenty of postings from guys and girls over there that tell what is happening in their little corner of the world, and whenever you are talking about Iraq, that is all you can talk about. Things may be going smooth in one area and yet 25 miles down the road they are suffering daily attacks. It is the nature of the beast and for those that can’t grasp that they cannever understand the far more complex issues involved. Not every bomb blast is a sign of failure and not every new electrical pwoer plant is a success.
What this clown wrote wasn’t true and in all cases truth must win out over all else.
When I was a Scout in the Army my commander told me right up front, just give him the truth of what I saw and experienced. He didn’t want to hear what I felt or what might be. If you stick to the facts then there is no need to offer explanations later.
MikeB:
Then let me put it this way:
If a soldier witnessed or was ordered to commit an atrocity, then the right and honorable thing to do would be to shoot it up the chain of command and / or (as the case may be) refuse the order.
Now, if it were the case that no one in your chain of command will listen or care- which is unlikely, then you still have the IG or JAG.
The wrong thing to do would be to contact CNN and everyone that will listen and explain how US soldiers are criminals, this war is illegal and wrong, and how what said soldier saw is proof of that.
Mike B, With all due respect, 100% of people would be behind protection of “whistle blowers”.
The thread is not about “whistle blowers” and you are either being obtuse if you claim so or believing these exposed liars still. Some of them weren’t even in the military and were making up stories….
Liars are not whistle blowers. You are diverting the thread yet again to a topic we aren’t even discussing.
Humanity’s struggle is against confusion. You represent confusion here not clarity. Do you see anywhere in MM’s post where she is talking about whistle blowers? No. It is about LIARS.
Remember,”The truth shall set you free.”
Many here have been outspoken proponents for severe punishment for those soldiers who HAVE been found guilty of grave misconduct. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone effectively argue that the few bad apples should be allowed, simply because they are soldiers. The reverse is true, in fact. Most here would argue that it’s VERY important that those soldiers who commit crimes be punished, in order to prevent the media from creating a narrative about how this sort of behavior is commonplace in the military. This Beauchamp ordeal makes it obvious how badly they wish to build exactly that sort of impression.
No matter what the other side of the fence may say, we’re not wearing blinders here.
Why didn’t the winter soldiers with Kerry report the war crimes while they were in the service? They just want to wait till they get out, and come back home to use it as a political ploy. The soldier at the Kos convention spoke against lies while still on duty. He didn’t wait to get discharged. That is the big difference. The winter soldiers speak out against their fellow veterans while the Sergeant at the Kos conventions defends them.
zero, I agree the proper approach is obeying the rules: up the chain of command, the JAGS, the IG, etc and not going directly to the press. What I said is not inconsistent with that.
Bak, Maybe I’m not as sanguine as you are about the treatment of whistleblowers. I understand MM’s article is only about liars. But, here’s how “truth tellers” are treated:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/07/60minutes/main2238188.shtml
There is protection. Lots of it. PILES of it.
But not if the whistle-blower’s first stop is the CNN news room.
What you SHOULD do is:
- You talk to your superior
- If that fails, you go to the next step in the chain of command.
What the soldier did with Abu Ghrab wasn’t that. He called the reporters.
That’s not whistle-blowing, it’s tattling. And tattlers gets shunned.
There IS protection for whistle blowers, but only if they actually do it the way they are supposed to.
And people like STB aren’t whistle blowers, they are worthless piles of crap, and liars to boot.
Also, Bak, for your information, I did a search and MM did not even mention the hero whistleblower of Abu Ghrab. An American troop who is brave enough to expose wrong doing among his brothers-in-arms is a hero. I rarely see MM give such heros the respect they deserve.
MikeB:
Looks like swj719AWG beat me to it again.
I think my comments were centering around Derel’s idea that anti-war soldiers that speak out should be given respect just for the sake of being soldiers. All I am saying is that I don’t nessecerialy agree and the point is, how they go about speaking out (and ceertainlly whether or not what they say is true) is also very important.
The Abu Graib whistle blower did the right thing. There were lots of Lieutenants in Vietnam who were fragged for trying to do the same thing. I signed up for duty, honor, county. If the Abu Graib enlisted National Guard soldier could do it, why couldn’t a commissioned Naval Officer (Senator Kerry) and the winter soldiers do it? What ever happened to Honor, courage, and commitment?
Mike B finally admits but the says, “But, here’s how “truth tellers” are treated:”
Are you lumping anyone here including MM in that whistle blower treatment?
And I’ll say again. It’s off topic. 100% would want protection for whistle blowers.
BTW - there are PROCEDURES for whistle blowers. Investigations need to be carried out and they are adversely affected if the whistle blower doesn’t follow procedures but instead goes to the media in many instances.
Criminals should be prosecuted and whistle blowers need to be protected.
It is a soldier’s duty like John Kerry’s or Scott’s to report crimes when they occur so that the criminals can be dealt with. Enough thread derailment on the whistle blower topic. I won’t address it again except to remind Mike his smearing here isn’t working…
Mike B. wrote, “Also, Bak, for your information, I did a search and MM did not even mention the hero whistleblower of Abu Ghrab. An American troop who is brave enough to expose wrong doing among his brothers-in-arms is a hero.”
No. They are obligated and they are obligated to do it by the procedures that are published in every organization. When I was in the military, every civilian job and including the one I’m in now - I’m well aware of what I’m supposed to do to report illegal activity.
And it isn’t MM’s duty to laud anybody doing their job. There are one million topics in the world and she chooses a hundred or so to write about.
To get the thread back on topic - please state clearly that you are aware that this post is not about whistle blowers and that you know you are off topic.
swj, I re-read the Abu-G story I linked and John Darby did submit the incriminating photos to the C.I.D. (criminal investigations division) and he was still shunned and mistreated.
Reckless charges should be condemns as MM and all of you do. But, again, I don’t think anyone can honestly say that exposing wrong doing by US troops in a time of war makes you popular in the barracks and on right wing blogs.
What it comes down to is that the left believes that the ends justify the means, therefore lying and slandering our military does not matter. A temporary possible electoral victory supercedes the permanent coarsening of our society.
http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/january-20th-2009-the-death-of-the-left/
Respectfully,
eric
The real question is, which of these guys will be running for President in the 2024 election?
I’m guessing some of them will be congressmen from Mass or VT.
You’re joking, right?
For them, all three stopped when they stood to gain personally from something else.
Then you take it to the next level.
Only after you’ve exhausted every level of Military authority should you go to the press.
Maybe not popular, but you’re be respected by me, at the very least. It’s the US Military, and it holds itself to higher standard than you could imagine.
If someone followed the chain of command and got some horrible act looked at, and the guilty punished, I would welcome that person in any unit I was in.
But I have no love of tattle-tales and glory-hounds.
Not being popular after you blow the whistle is nature’s way of making sure you don’t bother with the pettey crap, and focus on important, actual wrong-doings
hero whistleblower of Abu Ghrab
Along with the people who are responsible for the release of prisoners from Gitmo who went back to their killing ways – Heros!
People dying in wars so trolls can say anything they like and be free to do it - Zeros
/sarc off
MikeB:
I read through the article you linked, as it turns out, Joe Darby DID do the right thing. Good for him!
However, those doing the shunning were not his chain of command, and it seems the military even took steps to protect him.
No one ever said doing the right thing is easy.
Now, in any case you are going off topic.
I think my point is well made.
Joe Darby = Good.
Beauchamp / Kerry = Bad.
Its not just the whistle-blowing but the way you go about it. Doing the right thing isn’t always popular either, but the military DOES take steps to protect whistleblowers, to punish atrocities, AND to protect the intregrity of an honorable institution.
The far left only attempts to slander. Abu Gharib for instance is held up as the example of everything wrong with the military by the media, yet it is the same military that they slanders that was already (several months?) into investigating and dealing with the crimes when they “broke” the story.
This same media also makes out Beauchamp to be some hero, when he is, in fact, a fraud.
swj719AWG:
I may be wrong, but according to the article and overall, it seems Joe Darby didn’t himself goto the media at any point. I believe it was leaked some other way.
SWJ- you hit the nail on the head.
The war is not about a popularity contest or $400.00 haircuts!!!! It’s about doing your duty. If a service member wants to speak up that’s fine. However, Senator Kerry better not try to feed me a load of B.S., by telling me he didn’t do his duty by reporting a “free fire zone”. How about acting like a Naval Commissioned Officer and not Mr. Popular.
Note to Michelle Malkin:
If you do not pass your stories through the troll network for approval, you are not a journalist and deserve the criticism from said troll network.
Note to Michelle Malkin Part II:
I like your choices for heros better!
That ends my suck up post for the day!
And then the right wing blogosphere reacted to the media’s antics which consisted of…
1) Trying to pin it on Bush and Rummy as their approved torture methods
2) Not pointing out that the Army was taking these allegations seriously and was court martialing people.
3) Running the story everyday on the NY Times front page for more than a month…. perspective matters. Did the NY Times do that for 9/11 for goodness sake?
Yes it is inconsistent, because the example you used is a soldier who did NOT use the proper approach and obey the rules by going up the chain of command.
Regarding the Abu Grab*ss whistle bloweer, he was not shunned by the military but rather by his own hometown. These actions were perpetrated by members of a Reserve unit. Reserve units are formed from citizens in the surrounding communities which means everybody knows everybody. It explains why England was carrying on an affir with the other guy and getting pregnant by him even though he was married. it explains all the videos and pictures of the members of this unit, that didn’t make it to the front page of the NYTimes showing them in, shall we say, questionable behavior with each other. The guy who kicked over this ant hill was turned out by his community for exposing far more then the frat party at the prison.
Regarding the Winter Soldiers, most of the people caught on tape and presenting the evidence had either never served or never been to Vietnam, yet it is to this day presented as truth and factual. A lot of the people featured have since then recanted but it matters not.
That is why it is important to not let lies stand. Too many people with too much ignorance of things military related choose to believe these types of stories.
But that is what you get when less then 1% of the population serve in the military.
pressto, see Zero#90 post.
Why has Kerry never been brought up on purgery charges for his little speech in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee???
MikeB:
If your point is that whistle-blowers that follow the proper guidelines, chain-of-command et al. deserve respect, I agree with you.
If you are trying to represent someone like Joe Darby being shunned by the guys and gals he exposed as something wrong with the military or right-wing bloggers;
OR
if you are trying to say that “winter-soldier” types deserve respect simply for being soldiers;
those points I don’t agree with.
Ummm, my first guess is he is not Rebublican. If he were, the Dimocrats would make sure he was flogged and left for dead at Gitmo (where Republicans belong - not terrorists).
On-my-soap-box said:
On August 8th, 2007 at 12:11 pm,
Mr_Conservative_Cat said:
We get enough of their hateful rhetoric in the physical world - let’s ignore them here.
Ignore who!
Mike B and the couple of other troublemaking far-left libs here clearly out to cause trouble and simply confuse the exchange and expression of anything resembling intelligent political conversation, of course. And here we have a nother thread in which a couple of malicious troublemakers spin and throw around mistruths like snow in a storm and, understandibly, people take the bait. After all the direct insults Mike B has hurled at Michelle, I’m ansolutely dumbfounded that the administration of this board allows him to stay, not just for Michelle’s sake, but for the sanity of the rest of this board. Like concervatives don’t have to deal with the insanely dishonesy left the rest of the time!
LOL - it wasn’t a question but an agreement / confirmation.
The MSM uses these “winter soldiers” to further their agenda. When they are discredited and proven to be frauds, there is no mention of it again. No retractions or apologies are made. They just move on to the next anti-Bush story. They did the same thing when the accuser in the Duke lacrosse case was discredited. They ruined those men because the story fit a profile. When it wasn’t true, they made no apologies or retractions. Where is journalistic integrity?
To the DK trolls, life ain’t fair, take it or leave it. You’re not going to be woken by a kiss from your fairy prince. Islamic extremists are still going to try to kill us tomorrow. Ms. Malkin provides coverage on issues that don’t see the light of day in the mainstream press. The stories you’re whining about are already covered there ad nauseam. Grow up and go home.
Agreed! Didn’t Time do a front page story of these guys that made the whole world look at them as rapists?
Again and again the MSM dose these stories to scoop the other “news” (tongue-in-cheek) outlets. What was it Hitler said – something like:
The bigger the lie the easier it is to get the people to believe. (paraphrasing at best ‘cause I just don’t want to google it).
It can work if everyone maintains the discipline. I experience it myself on another of my favorite blogs where mischief perpetrated by commie canucks is monitored. Not much senses of humor from what I can see.
Michelle’s compilation is excellent, however there was one really big one that keeps getting missed.
During the TANG C-BS document scandal, Col. Ollie North was on Hannity&Colmes one night talking about something GungaDan did on 60minutes in 1988. Dan had interviews with 3 or 4 guys who were said to be involved in the “Tiger Force” special ops in Vietnam. They were full of horrifying tales of how they snuck into South Vietnamese villiages and massacared 50-100 civilians at a time, left there dismembered bodies piled up like cordwood and then planted evidence to blame it all on the Vietcong, to turn the population of the south against the communists. This was their story.
Ollie, of course, smelled a rat with these guys. He began to investigate these men and their claims, and determined that not one of them were where they said they were. None were special forces, only one was even in theater at the time, but he was a stockboy at a supply base, not combat duty at all. These guys were tools of the anti-military propaganda efforts of the left. Those atrocities did take place, but were the Vietcong punishing villiages that cooperated with U.S. forces. The left tried to blame our special ops for it instead, to “stop the war”.
Of course Dan Rather was happy to put them on prime time TV years later, and not challenge anything they said. Ollie proved they were liars, and 60minutes were all too happy to spread their lies to support their own ideological agenda.
This incident should be added to the list and not forgotten, because it was one of the worst, right up there with John F’n Kerry’s Cambodian Adventures.
Anyone else remember that?
Dan “there not real but not inaccurate” Rather, I remember all to well.
Sounds like a make believe cartoonish (redundant, I know) story! Oh, sorry, it was. (That was redundant and sarcastic all at once. I need to see a Doctor).
Daily Kos calls Jim Webb a “coward”
Brian72 - I don’t recall that - but probably because of the election being close and all that I didn’t look for it…
Although, you would think that if the initial reporting deemed all that to be a story - the subsequent debunking of such wild claims portrayed by a major newsman would make national headlines….
But who on the left would credit Ollie with it?
Conservative Cat: Give it up. I am here for the duration. The “deciders” on this site have seen fit to keep me here. Plus, I am insulted by you and others much more than I insult Michelle Malkin (who said “O’Rourke was as flat a Lara Flynn Boyle’s chest”).
Balava: Nothing surprising there…. the far left will demonize and feed on their own over the smallest disagreement.
There is no dissention allowed by the far-left.
And this is the party of ‘inclusion’ and tolerance? This is the party that asks us all to be open to other people’s views and lifestyles?
As more and more of these layers come off - the sting of daylight will show them for who they truly are - and they will NOT gain or hold onto leadership powers for long.
Umm….Mike….Lara Flynn Boyle’s chest IS flat….
General Petraeus on Alan Colme’s show (transcript provided)
LFB’s chest is NOT FLAT for her height. But even if it were, you don’t think MM could have came up with a be