Which path will we take: Fight or surrender?
8:50am Eastern. Moonbats have turned out in Australia to protest President Bush’s visit. Here’s your second photo of the day. Makes me appreciate PM John Howard’s stalwart support for the U.S. all the more:
More on Howard vs. the protesters here.
***
The photo of the morning comes from reader John M., who e-mailed: “I am sending you a picture of graffiti that was photographed in Sacramento California on the I 80 on-ramp heading east to Reno. It first read “Stop the War.” Someone did what I wanted to do and crossed out the stop and added ‘Win’ in front.”
Which will it be?
Across the country, ordinary Americans–I’m talking about grass-roots activists without George Soros funding–are gearing up to bring the fight over the war to Washington. Summer’s over. Iraq tops the agenda as Congress returns. Next week will bring a historic clash of activists. Melanie Morgan and Move America Forward are on their way, leading a cross-country caravan. Check out the driving route to see if they’ll be stopping by a town near year on their journey to answer the ANSWER mob. Catherine Moy reports that Democrat Party organs ain’t happy. Eagles are preparing. Vets for Freedom are mobilizing.
The Victory Caucus is asking for your signature on a petition urging Washington to “Stand By the Mission:”
General Petraeus and the new U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker, will report to Congress in mid-September on the American effort. We urge our nation’s leaders to:
Recognize the importance of fighting and defeating al-Qaeda, wherever they can be found, not least in Iraq;
Consider the testimony of General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker with an open mind and without regard for partisan politics;Recognize the significant threat to U.S. national security that a hasty retreat or a made-in-Washington timetable for withdrawal from Iraq would generate; and
Listen to the U.S. service members who willingly sacrifice to protect our country and who do not want defeat legislated in Washington so long as American troops are on the battlefield.
America has a chance to strike a serious blow against terrorism and the ideologies that drive terrorism. By contrast, the defeat of the United States would embolden terrorists, making the world a more dangerous place for Americans and consigning the people of Iraq and the Middle East to a perilous future.
We urge you to support our troops by giving them the resources and time they need to successfully complete their mission.
***
Want to know what’s going on on the ground? Read Badgers Forward. And Mudville Gazette’s Dawn Patrol.
The MNF-I page, which you should always check regularly, is here.
Troop combat deaths are down. It won’t make Katie Couric’s newscasts.
McQ at Q&O outlines the reasons for the trend. Bottom line: “[T]he combination of careful planning, excellent execution, experience, Iraqi cooperation and exponentially increased human intelligence have all combined to keep our casualties very low despite the fact that we’re on the offense.”
And if you missed John Wixted’s analysis of Iraq war civilian casualties over the summer, make sure you click over and check out what he found versus what the AP reported. He concludes:
Although I wish more progress were evident in the civilian casualty chart, one has to say that the new strategy adopted by General Petraeus is showing results. Actually, the results have been quite spectacular, but this fact is obscured by the high number of civilian casualties that are still evident. I have thought all along that if civilian casualties did not drop very substantially by the Fall “deadline,” Harry Reid would use that fact to successfully convince the American public that “this war is lost.” And because most Americans do not pay close attention to the details and therefore do not really understand what is happening in Iraq, I had thought that surrender (to al Qaeda) would be in the cards.
I don’t think that any more. In fact, I am amazed that Americans (and even some Democratic leaders) are able to appreciate the momentous turn of events that has occurred in Iraq lately. More and more Americans seem to understand that we really are in a war against al Qaeda in Iraq (whether or not Iraqi politicians reconcile with each other), that al Qaeda has made it so, and that losing to al Qaeda would have profoundly negative consequences. They also seem to appreciate that the tide has turned against al Qaeda in a very big way even though the terrorists remain capable of launching sneak attacks against and slaughtering unarmed and completely innocent men, women and children. Although the mainstream media often refers to these attacks as being carried out by Sunni “militants” or “extremists,” the American public seems to appreciate the glaringly obvious fact that these attacks are instead carried out by “terrorists.” Al Qaeda terrorists, in fact. They are doing so not because they are participating in a Sunni-vs.-Shiite civil war but because they are trying to provoke a civil war to bring down the Iraqi government and to demoralize you (so that you will throw your support behind Harry Reid and like-minded anti-victory Democrats).
See what others have said
Note from Michelle: This section is for comments from michellemalkin.com's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that I agree with or endorse any particular comment just because I let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with my terms of use may lose his or her posting privilege.
Trackbacks
- Infidels Are Cool » Blog Archive » A Secure Iraq is entirely possible as the tides of war turn towards victory
- I’m A Pundit Too » Blog Archive » Iraq Central 9-04-07
- Classical Values
- Bill's Bites
- Some Guy With a Website by August J. Pollak - xoverboard.com
- NoisyRoom.net » Blog Archive » Noisy News Around the Web - 09/04/2007…
- Sister Toldjah » September: A big month on the homefront for the Iraq war
- Stop The ACLU » Blog Archive » Petraeus To Recommend Troop Reduction
Comments
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Categories: Gathering of Eagles
Little Miss Attila
» Okay, Ladies.
Belmont Club
» Both sides nowRiehl World View
» Whoa! Palin BEAT Obama In Ratings ScorePower Line
» 40 Million?!JustOneMinute
» Now The Surge Is Succeeding?Little Miss Attila
» Well, You Know: G.W. Bush Didn't Vet His VP, Either.TigerHawk
» "We lost their trust"Redstate
» The Palin And McCain SpeechesGateway Pundit
» America First-- John McCain Makes His Case
Win the War.
I’ve signed the Victory Caucus petition.
I wouldn’t stand behind “Tommy” Reid at a Taco Bell aka Sen. Windbag jr.
Fight or surrender? The coalition has already done the first and still the Iraqi army isn’t fully ready to take over the job! What a disaster.
Time to leave. Enough coalition blood has been spilt already.
Snausage,
and you’re analysis is based on?
sausage (pork)
No such word as spilt….it’s spilled.
Good Morning AJ! (sounding like Robin Williams)
lol, good morning.
http://www.answers.com/spilt&r=67
Doh!
To all of the wave the white flag crowd, I consider you traitors.
“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say ‘what should be the reward of such sacrifices?’ Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”
Samuel Adams
View a tribute to our fallen. We must never forget!
That’s fine - I consider you to be delusional.
Just how many more fine and brave men and women have to come home in body bags before the lazy Iraqi army steps up to the plate?
Enough is enough.
What analysis? That’s a reflexive response you’re looking at, not an analysis.
An analysis would take the form of two-step thinking: “action-reaction” or “action-consequences.” What Sausage is doing would be “action-wishful thinking.”
It’s a variation of the old pacifist slogan, “What if they gave a war and nobody came?” That is, if we’d just take our ball and go home, betray those who counted on us, and consign millions of people to tyranny, misery and death, then there’ll be “no war.”
Sure.
What proponents of American retreat from the field never figure out is that the second part of the, “What if they gave a war and nobody came” poem is:
“- Then the war will come to you.”
We took our ball and went home after 18 soldiers perished in Mogadishu. Was the enemy mollified, or emboldened? And was the emboldened enemy content to leave us alone after that, or did they follow us home? The answers are self-evident.
There is an arrogant ethnocentrism that underlies the pseudo-philosophy of, “There’s no problem that can’t be solved by America walking away.” Such thinking refuses to credit the enemy with the capacity to form - and act upon - their own agenda, regardless of what we do or don’t do.
Our Islamist enemies in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere have their own agenda. Whether we confront them and make that agenda harder to realize, or whether we flee and make it easier, the agenda remains the same.
For those who want to do the “bug-out-boogie,” who childishly believe that the struggle will end if only we stop fighting, the reality they aren’t confronting is that there is no safety in flight.
A basic military axiom is that if you are content to adopt a defensive bunker mentality - such as the neo-isolationism that Sausage’s statement above seems to imply - then the best outcome you can hope for is simply not to lose.
To win, you must take the fight to the enemy, and defeat him where his power base rests. Again, this is not opinion, but historically proven fact since ancient times.
We’re in a fight. The enemy intends to win it if they can. Do we? The question at this point is whether we fight in their front yard, or ours.
Choose.
As many as it takes to preserve our freedom.
You see, the purpose is not to protect and keep safe our troops. The purpose is for our troops to keep safe our homeland, our freedoms, our future,
and our traitors.
Morning all,
Bless the Eagles … I wish I could be there with them … but I will be there in spirit …
I realized something interesting and in a way ironic about the fact we call this “A Gathering of Eagles” … and here is why …
For many years after the left snatched victory from us in Viet Nam and caused millions of executions and killing field assassinations the continue to deny … the pro-military American was not to be found …
Coincidentally during this same time frame the Great American Bald Eagle was on the endangered species list …
Recently that great symbol of this country was removed from that list … and now once again flies proudly in the skies over this great country of ours …
Now, the left is once again trying to force us into a losing situation … but this time pro-military action Americans are not being silent any longer … We are determined not to let these same defeatists turn any chance of victory into another defeat …
More Great American Eagles are rising up each and every day … both in the air and on the ground …
We have been silent for far too long …
God Bless America …
Good Morning dl,
Regulus, thank you for clarifying Snausages comments, I was waiting for a responce from him but he choose to cry over spilled milk instead.
Sausage said:
The one that is delusional here is you my friend.
Do you have any idea how many Iraqi Police and Military have given their lives for their fledgling democracy?
Many times the numbers of Americans.
We are losing about 750 lives per year in this war … and only about 75% of those are combat related … a fact that is always conveniently left out …
Anyway … at that rate we would have to be in Iraq for 84 years to equal the casualties in Viet Nam … it would take 581 years to equal WWII … and an astounding 890 years to equal the United States Civil War …
We have more people killed in this country by illegal aliens every year than we lose in the defense of this country in Iraq and Afghanistan combined …
I find your comments offensive to every current and former individual that has served in the military of this great country … but we did it so people like you could have the freedom to say such things … we did not do it in order to kow-tow to you and your brethren of the white flag with the yellow stripe down its center …
morning aj
Good morning gayle, aj, dl, and MM.
morning Dersu
morning Desru, DeserLover and aj…
Good Morning all… who’s cookin breakfast?
MM, are you a secret tagger? I think you would make a terrible one, because there would be no sentence fragment on MM graffiti. All correct punctuation and complete sentences. lol. Maybe you could spay paint Silky Poney’s SUV!!!!!!
General Mills, Cherios!
Good for the heart, unless it now comes from China.
MM–doing the reporting the MSM won’t do!!!!!!! Are you an illegal alien?
Moon Loons like to use the word “delusional” to describe Americans who support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan where the US is fighting the enemy in the enemy’s backyard- rather than fight them here in our front yards.
But, Moon Loons claim that “IslamoFascism” is an oxymoron too.
The only delusional thing I can be guilty of when it comes to the War is if I engage in debate with a Moon Loon.
Moon Loons are irrelevant. Their anarcho-Communist-neoMarxian-socialist fantasies are irrelevant. Their view of history and the future are irrelevant. They are Plato’s cave dwellers who discuss views of the world based on the shadows they see inside the caves that they never leave.
The war will continue until the job is done. That is what is happening in the world. A War is being fought to rid the World of an IslamoFascist enemy. It will continue until a peace can be won.
So why debate those who do not support the war?
I repeat: Moon Loons are irrelevant.
Bluster about defunding the war, “changing the course in Iraq”, “the war is lost”, the US Marines are “Nazis”, “Casey died for nothing”- a sampling of Moon Loon verbiage (it doesn’t even qualify as rhetoric)- all have failed to define policy about whether the war continues or ends.
But it continues. They continue to spout their foolishness. And the War continues. Their freedom to “dissent”continues. IslamoFascists continue to murder Jews. Moon Loons continue to acquiesce in the blood lust of their “democratically elected” champions in Gazastan. Moon Loons love to associate with Hezbollah’s agents in America.
Moon Loons do not accept that the alligator will eat them soon enough, but for now, their delusions serve the Reptile’s ends to fatten Itself on its preferred cuisine- Jewish flesh.
Moon Loons are childish in their refusal to accept the terms of this freedom to support Enemies of the United States: blood. Blood spilled over centuries since Bunker Hill has consecrated their right to think “freely” though in complete absurdity.
Moon Loons are delusional in their beliefs about socialism and Marxist fantasies about a world where there is not war and there is not profit.
Moon Loons romanticize indigenous societies and “green living” as if there is not a cost to human life attached to those “sustainable” directions. (Moon Loons cannot calculate the stunning difference in cost between the production of a unit of electrical power –power that gives them blogs to tweet their views- and the cost to produce the fleeting carbohydrates in a granola bar for a bike riding “vegan” to go to “work” for a “green business” while shouting “No blood for oil” or “one less car”.)
Moon Loons prefer a certain type of killing by the State. They want a State endowed with the power to kill, but that it be shifted from armies to government health agencies to abort human fetuses and euthanize the elderly, the sick, and the lame.
Moon Loons are claiming that crime is down in the US because there is abortion (A claim made in the recent Moon Loon manifesto “Freakonomics”).
Moon Loons want World Government for a world where profit is outlawed, while said government taxes the able to pay for its Nanny State largesse.
Moon Loons believe that the worker is the essence of society’s wealth, but ignore the reality of children growing up inspired to create their own mastery over destiny- rather than betray it under consignment to a labor union or government employment supervisor.
If the enemies of the United States of America ever vanquish this great Nation, then it will come from bloodshed on a scale this world has never seen. And it will be the Moon Loons deciding who lives or dies, and on what grounds.
My question to them is, and will always be, who will die first if Moon Loons ever rule the world (which is the Moon Loon goal- to rule the world.)
Starve the Moon Loons of the debate they so desperately crave. Deny them access to our “delusional” minds. Deprive them of the strategic distraction that gives them momentum in public opinion.
Overpower a Moon Loon by staying focused on the matter at hand- strengthening the United States as the world’s HyperPower.
America is creating a world in its own image, a geo-political process that includes warfare.
Was it Clausewitz or Bismarck who said “War is politics by other means.” Maybe it was neither.
No matter- we are a warrior nation. And I will always thank My Creator that it is so.
Moon Loons live in a warrior nation. Why they stay is delusional.
Just finished my late breakfast of yogurt……the girl has to look good ya know! LOL!
Not such word as spilt, “sausage”, unless you find it in the ebonics dictionary of language exemptions.
Good Morning Fellow Patriots-
Here is what I eat every morning
(following a P90X workout)
Bear Breakfast Magic:
3 cups raw oats
1/2 cup honey (of course)
3 cups non-fat yogurt
3 chopped nectarines (apples)
2 cups walnuts (omega 3s baby!)
2 scoops Muscle Milk Protein Powder
(caramel flavor)
put into food processor (doesnt work
in a blender)
run it for a minute to a minute and a
half
High protein, cholestorol lowing
goodness…
That’s funny. Who has done more to take away our freedoms than Bush and his sidekick Alberto Gonzales, who established Mexican values as the norm in Washington, from no habeas corpus to illegally wiretapping you to torture. Here’s the latest from your führer, the unitary executive.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/26399
Iraq is a booby prize of bottomless pit spending and corporate corruption. Why would anyone want to win such a booby prize? The more money we borrow from China to fight the war and nation build in Iraq, the more billions China makes off our interest to build nuclear submarines.
You must have read this
Ok - sorry gang - but I’m going to have to defend Sausage on something here….
.
.
.
Oh, sorry - it’s not his views on the war…
Spilt is a word…
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spilt
Alphonse - what freedom specifically have you lost?
Has anyone here lost a freedom over all this?
Please clarify or place your head back in the sand.
ATTN Michelle:
If this is not enough reason to ban someone, I am in the wrong place.
I refuse to be in the same place as this type of comment.
Our POTUS just risked life and limb to visit our brave men and women, he nor we deserve this.
Oh, and by the way, pointing to ‘afterdowningstreet’ as a source is about as credible as using DailyKos or CAIR’s website.
Dersu - don’t let the troll get you down.
bear1909 - that was a rambling mess, wasn’t it? You are wrong on all of it.. but then you don’t know me.
Being a Brit I am well aware of “IslamoFascism” - as these idiots have blown themselves up around London where I used to live before moving to the land of the free, home of the cheesecake.
I love America, just not the far right. Or the far left
This thread gets to the heart of the matter. If we continue to pursue the war as Bush has done for the past four years, will it end in victory or disaster? Is there any chance America will provide the extra resources needed to achieve the objectives Bush put forward?
I think the answer to both is NO. Despite claims of improvement in one way or another, Iraq has lasted longer than WWII and the signs of improvement are distant glimmers rather than shining lights.
Wanting to prevail does not mean we will prevail. I want to run a marathon, but I know that unless I run 35+ miles per week for several months it isn’t happening no matter how much “desire” I have on marathon day. When you’re dealing with the lives of soldiers, you should something more than desire to go by.
Alphonse said:
Gee … the name Janet Reno comes to mind right away … I don’t believe this adminisitration killed Americans in Waco, ruined a man’s life with false accusations as in William Jewell, or terrorized a young child with an armed raid and sent him back to be a propaganda puppet for Fidel Castro in Cuba (Elián González) …
I am sure we cnould come up with more if we really try … these were just the no-brainers …
First, I want to know why Michelle said she isn’t a morning person but posts at 5:30AM? Top of the morning to you!
Second, several developments indicate the scope of the war we are in. The news from Denmark about arrests of an islamic terror ring, most of them Danish “citizens!” Their citizenship is the global caliphate make no mistake about it. We’d better be taking a long hard look at the caliphate citizens we have in this country holding US documentation. The other development was the killing of Talibans yesterday involved in the kidnapping of the Korean Christians. I knew they would have compromised their positions dragging the negotiations out for their greedy $20million. If only they could spend it in hell now…but I’m afraid that currency isn’t accepted there. It may come to the fact that we will be battling the war on two fronts, directly with the jihadists and simultaneously with some of our radical liberal left citizens.
I agree that this may not be the quickest way to win, but can you except the quickest way?
We are not yet to that point, but it may come to it.
lgm says: Iraq has lasted longer than WWII.
This gross display of ignorance shows what danger those who want to stop this war no matter what pose to the free world. Our educational system along with the liberal media are elements that may doom us all.
I dunno. He’s still posting crap, Michael Moore is still producing crap, “avant garde” artists are still in business, illegal immigrants are still roaming about, protesters are still free to protest (and even carry signs calling for the murder of the President). All this seems pretty free to me.
Try doing any of that in my birthplace of Malaysia, and you see what’ll happen to you (hint: Google Namewee and see what’s happening to this poor fella).
For what it’s worth, from my vantage point from across the Atlantic, America is still mighty free.
I missed that,where was it reported?
Hopefully it is true!
Sausage:
I know enough.
You are named after a waste product which tends to be greasy and carcinogenic.
The Germans call it “wurst”. Telling.
What more is there to know?
If you chose to personalize my diatribe because you yourself used the word “delusional” that’s on you.
Oh, btw, you can’t love what you don’t understand.
Have a nice day.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ix3dUeB4TzjK35GaKYmlUkoPVKcg
How many Moon Loons actually grasp what habeas corpus means?
How many Moon Loons are currently involved in the US court system and have had their rights of habeas corpus suspended?
one other happening yesterday that has not seen a lot of the light of day … The defeat of the Al-Qaeda suppported terrorists in Lebanon by the Lebanonese Army … many do not realize that we gave a lot of support to the Lebanese in this conflict …
Now … if they can just take back the rest of their country and keep Syria’s influence at bay …
DesertLover: That was great news about the defeat of the al-Fatah thugs in Lebanon.
Now, if we the People can just get Minnesota IslamoFascist Congressman Keith Ellison removed from the congressional committee on “anti-semitism”, that would be a domestic victory which would never see the light of day in the mass media. (Full story over at Atlasshrugs.com).
This is great news!
Thanks PGTIPS
Taliban involved in SKorean kidnappings killed: government
5 hours ago
GHAZNI, Afghanistan (AFP) — Security forces killed a Taliban commander involved in the kidnapping of 23 South Koreans in an operation that left more than a dozen other rebels dead, officials said Tuesday.
The insurgents were killed in an Afghan and US-led coalition operation that started late Monday in the central province of Ghazni, where the aid workers were snatched July 19, and lasted several hours, officials said.
Among the dead was Mullah Mateen, a key player in the abduction of the group, two of whom were killed before the remainder were freed — the final batch of 19 of them late last week.
“We killed 16 enemy fighters and among them was Mullah Mateen, the Taliban commander who along with Mullah Abdullah Jan was a key person behind the kidnapping of the South Koreans,” Ghazni police chief Alishah Ahmadzai said.
Got some outside chores, watch my back friends.
bear … I agree … just hadn’t seen anything more than the story on FNC website …
Lebanon was once a close ally until the Kobar towers in ‘96 … but Billy Boy was more interested in Waco and Monica than going after Al-Qaeda for killing 240 Marines, bombing a bunch of our embassies and trying to blow up the WTC a couple of years before that …
so instead we pulled out (much like the left wants us to do now) and the whole area went downhill in a hurry … but now it seems the Lebanese people have had enough and are retaliating … there were a number of joyous celebration pictures online afterwards …
On it, Dersu. Happily.
I said during those “taliban negotiations” I hoped we had some high powered surveillance going on from afar to track those retards back to their hideouts and blow them away after the hostages were released … sounds like someone was listening or at least thinking along the same lines …
Glad to hear this … looks like there were a lot of positive things that went on all over the world yesterday …
Gotta love the comparisons of Iraq to World War 2 (this is longer than WW2!!!).
Apples to oranges, my friend.
WW2 was total war in every sense. Millions mobilized, thousand-plane raids on cities, countries fully mobilized for war.
We’re trying to minimize civilian casualties here. If we fought it like WW2, so much for that.
We also lost more soldiers killed in just over one week than in all the time we’ve been in Iraq. The Red Army was losing thousands in a day.
Exactly. In addition to that, there have been 3,742 Coalition deaths in Iraq since the war began. In contrast, there were 8,226 deaths and 19,189 wounded in the Battle of Iwo Jima alone.
There is no comparison to be made with WW2. It’s annoying how people cherry pick their statistics, which even then are wrong. The 2nd world war started on 1st September 1939 and ended on the 2nd September 1945. That’s 6 years and 1 day. The invasion of Iraq started on the 20th March 2003. That’s only 4 years, 5 months and 16 days. How that can be interpreted as being longer than WW2 is beyond me.
When white flaggers are willing to announce to the world when they themselves are not in their homes, publish their vacation plans and dates along side their addresses, leave their doors open(not just unlocked, but open) so anyone may enter their homes at will, then I will listen to them…and not before.
The theft and destruction of life and liberty in a deserted Iraq would be historical, possibly biblical, as the terrorists built and devised new ways to attack the west on it’s moon god allah(pissbeuponhim) ordered path of trying to destroy the free world including America.
.
IF we listened to the WF’ers? Then what? The same idiot white flaggers would be screaming for the US gov’t to stop the carnage AFTER it had grown to monstrous proportions.
.
Waste products, do you have a brain?
Moon Loons don’t do simple arithmetic. It clouds their world view.
They don’t do science either, hence “global warming as threat to the world” hysteria.
Last month’s Harper’s Index had interesting stats for “number of US soldiers who have died in combat or non-combat situations since 2001″ 9185
During Clinton’s admin: 7500
Source: US DOD
I love the anti-graffiti on the freeway. We should all do that!!
I would love it if we had big bumper stickers that just said WIN. Although the lefties would then slash our tires…
The new sign up top “Disarm America”
What you dont see is the other side of that sign say’s.
“My Heads up my Butt”
To comment on my comment, we need to stop being a nation of quislings and take the bull#### by the balls, like the young lady did..,
regards
to RyanInSanJose and pgtips,
There are a couple of comaparisons that do fit. It is a global fight against a fanatic enemy.
If we had fought this war like we fought WWII there would not be two bricks left cemented together in either Afghanistan or Iraq. Go back and look at films of Germany after the surrender. Cities with block after block leveled. Same in Japan even without the atomic bombs. The staggering numbers of planes in air raids. There were nearly 12,000 B-17’s bulilt for the war. Add in the B-24’s, the B-29’s, B-25’s, B-26’s and all the fighters and you have an aerial armada unrivaled in history. And that was just on the American side. Add in all the British aircraft too.
We now fight surgical wars where we try to kill the enemy but not the surrounding civilians. That takes time. I remember back in Desert Storm, allied pilots would come back from missions with weapons unfired. Why? They could not get a clear target and did not want to take a chance on hitting a civilian area.
Could you imagine the field day the press would have if we attacked with the ruthlessness we did in WWII.
Actually you don’t have to imagine, just go back the the last Israeli venture into Lebanon where the press was all to happy to show civilian casualties but not to eager to ask why there were rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods.
We don’t fire on Mosques, we put our troops in greater danger by trying to be surgical, we fight with one hand and 3 fingers on the other hand tied behind our backs so as not to harm civilians and yet, when the inevitable civilian casualties happen we are raked over the coals as if that is the norm. Our troops are called terrorists and stupid by our own democrapic senators and idiots who have no idea what duty and honor really mean. We fight the most civilized wars in the world against the most uncivilized enemy in the world and yet let us make one mistake or not be perfect in every way and the rest of the world villifies us.
We have no choice but to defeat this enemy but maybe when this clash of civilizations is over we should symbolically do what Will Kane did at the end of High Noon. Throw the star in the dirt and walk away from the ungrateful sniveling little townspeople who he was willing to die for.
I will finish with this. I remember watching C-Span right sometime after the fall of the Taliban and Elinor Burkett was speaking about her book “So Many Enemies, So Little Time: An American Woman in All the Wrong Places”. She brought up an interview she had with an Afghani woman who said that on the night of the first U.S. air raid she gathered her children, huddled down in an interior doorway of her house and smiled. She said she smiled because she knew the Taliban nightmare was over and because she knew the Americans would be careful where they bombed so as to not, as much as possible, kill civilians. She new something the elitist snobs in the press and at places like DailyKos, HuffPo, etc. cannot fathom, the U.S. military is the most professional and civilized fighting force in the history of the world.
BZ Bear! Brilliant post.
NOT defending the word, but is this cause for removal? I was reading on Wikipedia that the word has a social stigma but is still commonly used to describe an “absolute ruler.” Not that Wiki is the best source in the world. I was just wondering your opinion.
Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t use that term.
I have heard military personnel say that the casualties should be down because the technological warfare is different than WWII.
Question for you, do you think that the current War will last longer than 6 years and 1 day?
Makes me smile to hear such news.
Yes it will. This is a global, ongoing battle against not only Al Qaida, but any terrorist faction in the world who wishes to rear its head.
If, however, there were more of a concerted effort by the world community to go into these regions and truly do battle, the results would be far greater.
It will last a long time, in various forms and locations, but it is far better to be on the offensive than to sit back and wait for something to happen here or to any American interests or allies.
The problem we have here is that when it comes to national defense, “man made”global warming, the borders, or anything else, facts don’t matter.
Does it matter? What would it prove, in your mind, if this war lasted longer than that?
Comparing this war to any other is absurd, especially if you are looking at it from the standpoint of time.
to jrlingreenbay
I agree, this war will last a LONG time. It is the nature of the enemy. They are not a country that can surrender to us, they are a shadowy entity that can morph and hide in various locations, even within our own country for years.
Let’s say that in 10 years we go through a period of no terror attacks for 2 years. We have no idea whether we are finished or not. It could be a ploy to lull us into a false sense of security. These are people that have patience and long memories. A terror cell in this country could conceivably hide for decades. How long did Ted Kasinski (sp) hide out with out being caught and he was bombing things every few years. If a terror cell did nothing but wait and blend in we may never know until something blows up.
Nope we are in a long struggle between freedom and tyranny. Hope we are up for it.
One reason it will last until its over is these are faceless cowards who hide and attack innocents. At least in other wars the warriors had some honor and you knew who and where they were.
to ajmontana
That is pretty much true. I do know that for several years after WWII there were the “wolfpacks” in Germany that basically acted as terrorists till about ‘48 or ‘49. I don’t remember whether they were former German military though.
I don’t think there were those types of attacks in Japan after the surrender. I could be wrong and if anyone does know if there were post it, I would be interested in knowing.
Slow down PBBoilermaker, I am not saying anything about whether or not the war last longer than 6 years/WWII etc. Before you go attacking me, I was asking a question pertaining to PGTips post in #51 that listed the durations of the War, as well as the number of soldiers killed during the two wars.
I doubt you would call PGTips post absurd.
In my opinion, the time is irrelavent as far as I’m concerned. It’s the justifications by which we have fought and still are fighting that should be questioned.
BTW, I asked the time question of PGTips because after 6 years and 1 day, people will then be (somewhat) justified in saying that the Iraq War has lasted longer than WWII. Therefore, from a chronological standpoint, I was asking how long PGTips thinks the War will continue to occur. If people say “until the job is done,” we have to ask “OK, well what job?” When the Iraqi’s vote? What Saddam is killed? When the Iraqi people step up? When innocent civilians stop being killed? What if there is no end? GRivera said that we are going to be there forever (not that many people care for him for foreign policy decisions). Are Americans ready to accept that???
That is why you hear the question more and more: “When is enough, enough?”
jah made a point in the privious post that it may never end because there may be a certain time with no attacks. Would that mean the War is over?
I think it also depends on what you mean by a war. WWII ended when Germany and Japan surrendered. Similarly, you could argue that the Iraq war ended when troops captured the palace in Baghdad, thereby symbolically ending Saddam’s reign in Iraq.
What the US and British troops are doing in Iraq can hardly be considered a war (if we’re looking at it from a WWII perspective). They’re an occupying force engaged in building up the country to become self-sufficient. We didn’t occupy Japan/Germany to train up their troops. Even though there were sporadic attacks by “terrorist” groups and security in military bases was high, the war was considered over.
At the end of the day though, all these are just semantics. The war in Iraq cannot be compared to any of the world wars. Jah has made an excellent post detailing the difference in tactics and there is nothing I can add to that. There has been a change in strategy, where precision in strikes has increased tremendously. No longer are we bombing entire cities while saying to hell with the civilians.
The enemy we’re fighting is also different. We’re not fighting a country, but a group of people who share the same ideals - ideals which transcend borders. Not only that, these enemy combatants are not in uniform. This is a very big difference, as during WWII if an Allied soldier was caught in German occupied Europe, he would be shot for being a spy. This was the order of the day - enemy combatants out of uniform were considered spies and thus swiftly executed (tortured and interrogated first, of course).
Obviously this is different now, where terrorists never wear uniforms, are happy to try to pass themselves off as civilians when it suits them. In the 1940s, these terrorists would be classed as spies and treated as such. Not so today, where they are treated as criminals - so they end up going through the whole legal system.
I could go on, but I need to make dinner for the family
Technically, the job is done when the Iraqi forces can manage their own security and not fall prey to insurgent or terrorist forces.
Are we going to be there forever? That’s a long time…but we’re still in Germany, Korea, and many other places around the world too - and that’s been how many years?
Perhaps eventually we can use Iraq as a ‘fall-back’ redeployment location for a future war, as Jack Murtha wanted us to do with, where was it - Guam?
Thomas Barnett made an interesting point in a briefing I saw on C-span about a year ago. He said that right now the Arab world is going through a baby boom much like we had in the 40’s and 50’s and that right now they are at the high point. There are a LOT of 15 to 25 year old disaffected and therefore easily swayed males. His point was that the worst may be over in 20 years because old men aren’t suicide bombers and the old men that would be the leaders may not have enough followers to willing to carry on Jihad.
Not sure if I agree with him, his other part to that was that the Middle East must move into the “Functioning Core” of nations as he calls it. If they don’t I think they will still have enough disaffected young males that see no other hope other than martyrdom.
If you have not read them I highly suggest his two books
1) The Pentagon’s New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-first Century
and
2) Blueprint for Action: A Future Worth Creating
In that order by the way. Very good reading for those interested in the future.
Attack? I know you like to play the role of victim, but preemptive assumption of that role is a bit much.
No, because pgtips was showing how absurd it would be to cite figures from WWII as justification. Read it again.
Good, as long as you base your arguments against the war using data pertaining to the actual war, not data from WWII or any other fight we, as a country, have taken part in. Your Liberal friends would be wise to do the same.
Dude, you’re killing me. What, exactly, will that justify in the minds of Liberals?
For example: So far, this war hasn’t lasted longer than Al Gore’s claimed battle against Global Warming. I’m “justified” in saying that, even though it makes no sense.
Again, Liberal comparisons to the length of WWII are absurd and they prove NOTHING aside from a difference in linear time.
Hmmmmm….
Can we officially form protests about his ‘failed policy’ and poor execution of his ideas? Ask for either a post-career or premptive impeachment?
I think Algore needs to withdraw his troops…. “The War is Lost”.
Dammit. I made a long post and it was eaten
Long story short, I believe the occupation of Iraq will be a long time. We win it by winning the support of the local populace who are harboring the insurgents. This is done by helping them rebuild their country, getting basic amenities in place, building schools, giving health care, etc. This is the hearts and minds campaign, which the British waged in Malaya after WWII to win it back from the grip of Communists. Ref: Malayan Emergency for more information.
From what I’ve read on Michael Yon and other milbloggers, this is already happening. The locals are beginning to aid the Coalition forces in rooting out Al-Qaeda cells and the like. There is progress, but you cannot expect to win this war overnight.
My non-expert opinion gives us another 5 years
Similarities and differences WWII and GWOT
Similarities:
1) Similar type of fanaticism. Especially as it relates to the Japanese. They used suicide bombers, albiet late in the war. They were very willing to die for the cause. Very few Japanese prisoners taken, it was a dishonor to be captured
2) Worldwide scope of the battle. Along with that is the possiblity of attacking in places that might not seem to the casual observer to be worth it or make sense. For example invading Northern Africa when we were at war with Germany. Could you imagine today’s left railing against Roosevelt for attacking Libya, they did not attack us after all. Going to war with Germany when it was Japan that attacked which was the realization we had to fight fascism where ever it was. Just as now we must fight islamofascism where ever it is or wherever we can get at it.
Differences;
1) Scalpel approach versus Get a BIGGER hammer approach. We will not, unless we get hit with an WMD, be destroying cities, we will be destroying houses in those cities.
2) Hearts and minds. We did not differentiate between civilians and the governments in WWII becasuse the governments represented the civilians. Now we have an enemy that is hiding among people who may hate him as much as we do. We must be careful to not alienate potential and actual allies by being a BIG HAMMER.
3) No one entity to have surrender to us. There are many terror groups and even one were to say “no more” there are a lot of others to contend with.
Those are the ones that I can think of right now. Feel free to add more if you think of any either similarities or differences
Sounds like the hunter/gatherer diet. Is that why the libbs call us irrational Neanderthals foaming at the mouth, bear? lol
/s/
José
P.S. charlie caveman didn’t have a food processor
OT-
Where are the raw eggs Rocky?!!
Bear is that what you eat/drink or is that what you’re car runs on? Thats 13 1/2 cups! or 16 1/2 if you use both nectarines and apples. Bear must be 6′6″ and an ex tackle for the Raiders.
OT
Jose and aj You guys are killin me… lol…8)
Damnation! All this laughin is makin me hunger-tudinal again.
But it’s time for another workout! Aaargghhh!!!
Jose! I am a horse thieve by training! (Navajo!!!! a Spanish slur meaning those who steal- we’d trade them horses for beans and then steal back the horses. Hey! they came to us when we whistled, so is it really stealing?).
aj..lol…my car?!?!?!?!? too much! lol
it’s drinkable…half in the morning and half after dinner
bear … the 21st century answer to Eule Gibbons …
There’s a reference straight outta the ‘way-back’ machine.
jrlingreenbay
DesertL:
nothin like backin up against one a Eule’s ol trees and gettin my big bear back scratch on 
the simple things are best
bear1909
LOL … no idea where that thought came from … but suddenly … there it was … just couldn’t resist …
Re: WWII. I (and others) bring it up for several reasons.
We felt in December 1941 that our existence was threatened and responded accordingly. Our tiny response today is an indication that we are not threatened in nearly the same way, Bush rhetoric notwithstanding. Iraq is a war of choice, not necessity.
WWII sets a time scale for wars. In 1942 we were being chased across the Pacific. Two years later we were doing the chasing. In Iraq, the situation is similar or worse than the situation of two years ago. Violence is up, government is down.
The US entered WWII in December 1941 and the war ended in September 1945, a little under 4 years later. The Iraq war started in March 2003. Four years later in March 2007, it was not close to being over. That’s the comparison. You can debate it, but it is not completely stupid, as some posters say.
lgm#86
Would you do me a simple favor and explain this position? Especially the “similar to worse” conclusion. And the “violence is up” conclusion.
And, finally, why do you see it to be relevant to compare two entirely different geopolitical situations such as WW2 and the Iraq War?
Thanks.
Better get you’re energy drink ready for his answer bear, remember he’s armed with kool-aid.
And tinhats, Great thread very enjoyable read. Fight on
Well then, it is mostly stupid and completely absurd.
When comparing apples to oranges, you can make ANY argument work to fit your thinking. Why debate the current data when you can make ludicrous comparisons to unrelated historical data?
The Liberal model for debate is awesome.
lgm
ok … I’ll bite … since you are so determined to compare WWII with the GWOT … answer a question for me …
Since WWII was a “conventional” war and the GWOT is not …
what country are we at war with? … in WWII it was Japan, Germany, and Italy …
Who is it now?
Iraq? Afghanistan? … how about the radicals in Sweden? or Denmark? or Norway? … oh sorry … I guess you meant the people that have set off bombs in Spain? and in Great Britain? … oh … no? … so is it the radical rioters in France that we are fighting? … how about the rioters in Pakistan? … or Malaysia? … or the Phillipines? …
There are terrorist activities going on in all those and elsewhere …
Last I was aware of we are not at war with any other country … we are at war with a radical idology that is worldwide … it is not limited geographically to any specific country …
In other words … get your head out of the sand … or whereever else it is currently shoved … and get a clue … this is not a war that can be fought by armies facing off and countries surrendering to one another … this is a war against our way of life and the ideals this country stands for and which are envied by all those outside this country that are not looking to abolish us …
wake up and get a clue …