Why should teachers be exempt from the Second Amendment?
I’ve reported before on teachers, guns, and zero-tolerance tyranny at the grade-school level and anti-gun lunacy on college campuses. The issue of allowing students and faculty with concealed weapons permits to carry on school grounds also was the subject of considerable debate during the VTech massacre aftermath.
Now, a high school teacher in Oregon is taking her case to court:
High school English teacher Shirley Katz insists she needs to take her pistol with her to work because she fears her ex-husband could show up and try to harm her. She’s also worried about a Columbine-style attack. But Katz’s district has barred teachers from bringing guns to school, so she is challenging the ban as unlawful, since Oregon is among states that allow people with a permit to carry concealed weapons into public buildings.
“This is primarily about my Second Amendment right and Oregon law and the simple fact that I know it is my right to carry that gun,” said Katz, 44, sitting at the kitchen table of her home outside this city of 74,000. “I have that (concealed weapons) permit. I refuse to let my ex-husband bully me. And I am not going to let the school board bully me, either.”
In Oregon, a sheriff can grant a concealed-weapons permit to anyone whose criminal record is clean and who completes a gun-safety course.
Thirty-eight states, along with the District of Columbia, prohibit people from taking guns to school, according to the National Council of State Legislatures. But it’s unclear how many offer an exemption for people holding concealed-weapons permits, since the council does not track such exceptions.
Superintendent Phil Long insists employees and students are safer without guns on campus at South Medford High School, where Katz teaches. The district plans to make that argument when the case comes before a judge on Thursday.
Katz’s request appears to be rare. School security consultant Ken Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services in Cleveland, said he has never heard of a similar case while working in 45 states.
Katz won’t say whether she has ever taken her 9 mm Glock pistol to school, but she practices with it regularly and has thought about what she would do if she had to confront a gunman. She would be sure students were locked in nearby offices out of the line of fire, and she would be ready with her pistol.
“Our safety plan at our school now is that if somebody threatening comes in, you try to avoid eye contact, and do whatever they say, and that is not acceptable anymore,” she said. Shootings at Virginia Tech University and the one-room Amish school in Pennsylvania, “reinforced my belief we have to take action, we can’t just acquiesce as we have been taught to do.”
A win for Katz would be a big step forward towards a culture of self-defense.
Just keep the nosy pediatricians out of the way.
***
The Second Amendment Foundation supports Ms. Katz:
“This is a case where the issue seems crystal clear,” said SAF founder Alan Gottlieb. “Here is a woman who has taken all the proper, legal steps
for her own safety, and quite possibly the safety of her students and fellow teachers. Oregon’s pre-emption law appears to be on her side, and so are we.“Today, I am sending a check to Lake Oswego attorney James Leuenberger, who is representing the teacher,” Gottlieb stated. “We believe this case to
have lots of merit, not only for the individual rights of the plaintiff, but also for the rights of all Oregon firearms owners, and especially other
women who may find themselves in a similar unpleasant situation.”A hearing on the case is scheduled on Thursday, Oct. 11 in Jackson County Court.
“We are confident that the court will make a decision based on the clear wording of the Oregon statute, rather than on political correctness,” Gottlieb said. “There is no good reason why a school district can simply ignore state law, much less the safety of one of its employees.”
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Categories: Guns
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We have to protect the second amendment right for a teacher to be fully armed so she can shoot her ex-husband if required during school hours.
As much as it pains me, its kind of obvious about the risk of putting a weapon in a teacher’s hand and godforbid you have a student who gets ahold of it.
Campus Security is one thing but I think you are just screaming for a lawsuit against teachers, the schools and everyone around them if something happens in a room where the teacher has a gun.
This is not the first time I have seen this case with the teacher in Oregon. It would be a great victory for 2nd Amendment rights if she wins. She is under a credible threat from what I have read and when seconds count the police are minutes away.
I currently have a CCW, but in Idaho it is also illegal to have in a school zone other than the parking lot. I can’t understand why a responsible adult can’t be armed in a school zone. I would prefer to have several members of any school staff in grade school through high school. Just think what a properly trained and armed teacher could have done at Columbine. As long as an individual meets the CCW laws (normally age 21) requirements to include the training required why not let them carry in a College environment. Recent history shows there is no place more dangerous place for a law abiding person than a gun free zone.
I have mixed feelings about teachers having guns at school.
Security in my area consists of potbellied ambling down the halls monitoring. When a fight breaks out, they slowly manuever towards the action as if it’s “ah shucks!” “DO I have to?”.
I was assaulted by a female student on three occsions. She would run by me in the hall, while I was “on duty” and jam me in my shoulder. I reported her three times.
Guess what? Nothing happened to her.
I told her that I’d file charges against her if she did it again. That ws after the 2nd assault.
I just woke up one day and said to myself, “enough is enough!” I’d had it. NO protection.
Another teacher on the same hall had been knocked down….received a concussion and was out for months. She finally went back, but it took counselling for her to go back to teaching. She never went into the halls again unless it was to leave school.
A sad state of affairs, but this is why teachers are in shortage folks. The kids run the schools.
End of rant.
That should be, “occasions”.
I’m a teacher. I’m not a gun owner. But, it is foolish in this day and age to not allow someone who has gone through the process of obtaining a concealed carry license from carrying it into a school. If someone truely have evil intent, there isn’t going to be anyone to stop them in the schools I work in as a substitute teacher. That sign out front that says weapons aren’t allowed on campus are meaningless. As far as I’m aware, there is no “campus police” officer on these campuses. How long would it take for the police to get there, and how many children would be slaughtered. Beslan, anyone? Virginia Tech? Columbine? You never hear in the MSM how, when Jonesboro happened, one of the staff (a vice principal??) - who refused to not have his rifle in his truck and parked down the street from school as a result - had to run to his car to get his rifle and back to school AND STILL BEAT THE POLICE. His actions saved lives. How many more lives could he have saved if he’d been allowed to park his truck with his rifle in the school parking lot?
And what would be your post tomorrow if the ex walked in and shot her to death during school hours?
Yep, our schools are war zones. When we are talking about teachers arming themselves, we have to wonder where liberalism has had a benefit.
It was wrong for GOD to be in schools? Now, we debate guns for teachers when it is the students doing the shootings.
If I were a public school teacher, I would consider bagging groceries. Children can abuse a teacher and the teachers are helpless.
We had a “mother” here at work and when the teacher would call about her childs behavior, mother dearest would go completely off on the teacher.
My kid’s teacher always has access to weapons. We homeschool.
I recall over fifty some years ago, a wild unruly very BIG kid, took exception to one of our male teachers. When called upon, he refused to answer, when told to go to the principals office he lept over some desks and took a swing at the teacher. He ducked, hit the kid so hard on the jaw he broke it. End of story. Kid out of school and after a short hearing where all the kids took the side of the teacher, it was over. TOday, it might go another way with guns being drawn and used. Hope the teacher has one.
I understand the 2nd amendment about as well as any non-expert can I think, and I get the whole law-abiding citizens having guns for self-defense thing. I gotta say though, that something about the whole idea of guns in schools doesn’t sit quite right in the old gut. In our school district we have at least one fully armed police officer attached to each school on-site…that works fine for me.
I think I kind of agree with Defector01. On one hand I think that an armed student or teacher on the Virgina Tech campus could have possibly saved lives. But a gun can always get in the wrong hands(remember that inmate in the Alanta court room a few years ago).
Also, a gun could be used to elevate a situation that is simply tense, harassing, or bullying as opposed to life endangering. I’m sure everyone would agree that the use of a gun would have been inappropriate in “Gayle’s” situation described above.
I guess I mostly agree with defecto01 on the potential litigation problems 1.) due to the gun getting in the wrong hands, or 2.) the gun being used unnessarily to escalate a situation when it’s not needed. I waiver on this issue constantly, but I would probably keep guns out of schools period, unless there are possible exceptions that I haven’t fully contemplated.
Buck I said it way better than I did, but his concerns mirror mine. Just doesn’t feel quite right to me.
Even one full-armed police officer can’t do much good in the event of another Columbine - HS campuses are quite large in most urban areas - how many will die before the officer gets to where the shooting is? And, in the case of something like Beslan (schools are incredibly soft targets for terrorists), one police officer won’t be enough. I’m afraid the US will have to suffer a Beslan-style attack before some people wake up to that fact. And remember - I say this as a public school teacher. When I am able, on the advice of “those in the know” on another blog, I’ll check into CQB training, so even though I’ll be unarmed, I’ll have some knowledge in the event the unspeakable were to happen at my school, I’ll be able to do SOMETHING to save my students.
Applacia Law school, and the Virginia Tech shooting are reasons why good people should be armed to defeat when a criminal decides strike out.
In addition alot of college students are vets, ex-cops, and people are certified with CCW permits. The bad guys aren’t going to be deterred by “gun free zones”, but they have deterred the law abiding from having the means to defend themselves.
GSP
http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=2293
How about armed Black Panthers taking over your school?
PS - they certainly appeared to be loading their guns.
PPS - white students were not beating up black students.
On-my-soap-box - 1
Sausage - 0
I recently saw a video of terrorists training for a school takeover. It was filmed somewhere in Pakistan and clearly showed the terrorists attacking a mock school and shooting teachers and students. I am convinced that one day we will be faced with such an event.
If the teacher is trained and certified to use the weapon, I am inclined to allow her to carry it on school property. The sign on the door prohibiting weapons will surely not be followed by a criminal or a terrorist but it will be followed by law abiding citizens leaving our children completely at the mercy of violent, evil people.
Having a police officer assigned to every school is expensive and most likely will not prevent an attack. Virginia Tech had police officers (plural) on campus yet by the time they reached the scene, 32 people were dead.
I understand the risks associated with having a gun on campus but I also understand the risks of not having anyone armed except the bad guys.
AlohaGuy wrote
http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=2293
Thanks for reminding me about my Seattle history. It is history … 1968! I do have interesting memories of SDS at Queen Anne High School.
I take your points Ladybug (sorry, Miss Ladybug to me), but something about the whole notion just doesn’t feel quite right to me. BTW, I live less than 15 minutes from Columbine HS and my oldest was a freshman in high school at the time, so it hits pretty close to home. Still…I just don’t know. The whole notion of a bunch of private citizens walking around packing concealed heat in anticipation of a modern day shootout at the OK Corral just makes me kind of queasy.
This says it all. She’s not going to give up her right to defend herself and no rational society would ever demand that she do so. I wonder if she teaches social sciences.
dakine,
Sorry your son had to experience Columbine but I’m glad he’s okay. Just curious, are you a prosecutor or do you practice something other than criminal law?
I understand your reservations but I just think that by prohibiting concealed weapons on campus, we are guaranteeing no resistance to the criminals who seek to kill our children. The mere fact that the bad guys know that they may be confronted with armed resistance might be enough to prevent some attacks.
Alohaguy-
On PS:I guess that’s what the sheriff’s office and police department are for,or perhaps the national guard. You know alohaguy, similar to how black students had to be protected from white thugs during integration in the south.
If you think a bunch of teachers are going to have a shootout with a bunch of armed Black Panthers in this day and age…you watch too many movies.
I have no comment on resurrecting a dead horse with you on your PPS…maybe somebody else has time to play those games.
dakine~
My sister’s boyfriend has a CCW permit. He’s not looking for an “OK Corral”. He carries it when they go out as a “just in case”. Someone my sisters know - a professional ballplayer - was covered in a story about firecarms (don’t recall what publication, or the exact angle of the story). One night, he was on his way home but stopped for gas at an isolated gas station (possibly not in the best part of town). Someone approached him while he was pumping gas. Said ballplayer was carrying at the time. Let the other person know he was armed, no trouble came of the encounter. How often would an armed criminal NOT go through with their violence if they knew they MIGHT (just “might”, not a certainty) face not a victim, but someone ready, willing and able to fight back? Criminals like that tend to be cowards, and are out for self-preservation. If someone might be able ot shoot back, why start shooting in the first place?
I remember when Texas was debating the Concealed Carry law something like 12+ years ago. Opponents were saying we’d be having gunfights in the streets. That never happened. Someone how can qualify for a CCW permit should be trusted to carry that weapon pretty much anywhere, just to keep the REAL criminals guessing about how might be carrying. I was working at my part-time retail job this summer, and a man was in the store with his wife and kids. In picking up his child, I noticed his concealed weapon under his untucked t-shirt. (He may or may not have known that I saw his gun.) The face there was a firearm in the store did not make me nervous. On the contrary, I was a little reassured. Turns out this man is a police officer.
Buck I~
Not to speak for AlohaGuy, but I think the Black Panthers reference was just an example of what could potenially happen with regard to armed people invading a school, not that we need to worry about the Black Panthers specifically. I’d be more worried about a U.S. version of Belsan, and as someone noted above, they’ve uncovered the fact that Islamic militants train for that very thing. Our law enforcement officials can’t be everywhere at once. By their very nature, they are reactionary - they only show up AFTER the bullets start flying. Again, as someone said earlier, when seconds count, the police are going to be taking minutes to get there.
trinitytim, fortunately my kids attend a different (but nearby) high school than Columbine, but we knew, and know, quite a few Columbine families, mostly through high school sports. Great school and community, and as an aside, the Columbine football team is currently ranked 20th in the country in USA Today’s rankings. To answer your question, I’m a corporate real estate lawyer…mostly represent big companies and developers in structuring and closing real estate acquisitions/sales and development deals. A few of my lawyer buddies and law school classmates are prosecutors though. One guy is a federal prosecutor who works on organized crime and white collar crime cases and the other guy is an ADA in the major crimes unit in LA. They have lots of good stories…mine are all boring.
Ladybug, I hear what you’re saying in theory, but there’s just something about it that doesn’t feel right to me. I come from a hooks and bullets family, and both my dad and father-in-law were career military guys, but there’s just something about the whole concealed carry thing that I just can’t get comfortable with.
dakine
It is good that you are uncomfortable with the concealed carry on school grounds. Nothing wrong with that but I think it works as a deterrant.
Years ago, a ladyfriend that I was very close to was raped while I was in New York. The guy climbed 2 stories to get in the balcony at her apartment, tied her up and threatened her with a knife.
He was caught but while in jail, he used his mother as a go between to hire a guy to get rid of the witness, my girlfriend. The police knew about this through a jailhouse informant and told me that if it was allowed in Missouri, they would advise me to carry a weapon that could be concealed easily. I did carry a snub nose .38 to work, she worked there as well, and wherever we would go, including church, I would carry that revolver. I didn’t “feel” comfortable doing it but the alternative was unacceptable.
They used an undercover cop to nail the Mom and the guy wound up hanging himself in jail.
dakine
No offence, but you have repeated several times now some variation of “there’s just something about it that doesn’t feel right to me”.
So your objection is to concealed carry in general, and not simply this particular case involving schools?
Hard to argue with your point Vince.
flenser, no offense taken, and I realize I wasn’t being very articulate or specific. Yeah, I guess you’re probably right when you say it seems as if I’m just generally uncomfortable with the whole concealed carry thing. In schools for sure. Sorry I can’t be more specific, but it’s just kind of a gut feeling. BTW, I’m not discounting the various arguments folks have made in favor of concealed carry…they all make a certain level of sense.
My point Buck I is that it is entirely possible that armed persons might show up and take over a school. To think otherewise is foolish and dangerous. If they had started shooting, a lot of people would have been dead long before the police, much less the National Guard showed up. I believe in self-defense, I do not watch too many movies. My PS’ were side notes to that story. The story stated the weapons were unloaded - though they actually appeared to be loading them before they moved in on the school. The second PS is that some have claimed that white students in that school were beating up black students. That claim is false. The reason I brought it up is that though I posetd the link, I felt a correction to the story was in order. Since when is correcting facts “resurrecting a dead horse” or playing games?
My point was that whether the teachers are armed or not, armed thugs don’t respect school boundaries. The PS’ were simply because I resent others distorting the story.
Back in the late 1960s I, along with several other teachers, received phone calls telling us that we would be killed. At that time one teacher was going into the chemical store room and was faced with a 45 pointed at him.
There was major thefts of school equipment and even one of the school workers was beaten up when trying to stop the theft of a book. The head administrator told that worker that he did not know the person who did the beating even though the worker well knew the individual.
So what should a teacher do now days?
I know someone who lives in constant fear that her ex-husband and his insane parents will try to harm or take her son from her. She’s got restraining orders against them all, and is with - or has someone watching - her son 24/7. She’s considered moving out of state, changing her name, etc. to get away from these dangerous loons.
The restraining orders do nothing. And if she owned a weapon, in Wisconsin she couldn’t take it out of her home unless it was unloaded and locked in a case. So she’s defenseless and in a living hell because of her ex-husband.
I completely understand why people would think guns in school = bad.
But if one - just one - teacher or legal-age student at Columbine, or VT, or any other place there’s been a shooting we can only imagine the lives that would have been saved.
Crime rates in cities with CC laws have either stayed the same or gone down.
Criminals are not afraid of gun control laws, and they are not afraid of law enforcement or prison.
Let’s face it, if they were, they wouldn’t be criminals in the first place.
But they are afraid of getting blown away by a law abiding citizen using her right - given by both natural law and the Constitution - to defend her life and property. And many times, even simply SHOWING a criminal the gun is enough to make them leave.
But liberals want to take that right away from us.
If you learned nothing else from the recent tragedy in Burma, see what a brutal government can do once it’s stripped its populace of all means of self-defense.
englishqueen, you make some strong points. I must ask though, you’re not seriously suggesting that high school students of legal age be permitted to carry weapons in school are you?
For what it’s worth, I do not support arming high school students. I do support allowing licensed and trained education professionals to carry handguns in schools.
I once responded to a 911 call for a fight in a high school classroom. When I arrived I was alone and confronted by an adult trespasser armed with a 357 magnum handgun pointed at a teacher. I was fortunate enough to arrive within 2 minutes and was able to disarm the trespasser without having to shoot him.
The victim teacher had a concealed weapon permit but was prohibited from carrying the weapon on school property because of school policy. The suspect was arrested after having my 9mm stuck in his ear. He was convicted of assualt and sentenced to 5 years in prison.
This was one of many, many incidents in wich handguns were either pointed or discharged at me. It taught me that criminals do not care about laws prohibiting the carrying of handguns.
dakine~
I think most CCW regulations require the holder of the permit to be 21. I could be wrong. In that case, it wouldn’t apply to high school students. But, it could have saved lives in the case of students at VT.
englishqueen~
Your friend should move to a state where she can get a CCW and be able to protect herself 24/7.
You guys make some very compelling arguments…you’ve given me some valuable food for thought. My lawyerly instincts tell me, however, that the liability issues for schools districts might be pretty hard to overcome.
What liability issue for the school? There shouldn’t be any. A person is either has or doesn’t has a license for a concealed carry if they live in one of the states that allows it. So long as said permit holder responsibly carries, there are no problems. If said permit holder does not (and this permit holder doesn’t have to be a teacher/staff person - it could be a parent/guardian) responsibly carry, then any liability would be on the part of the permit holder. And, a school would probably be LESS likely to be liable if there are CCW permit holders on campus than if they are “weapons free” with an act of gun violence - since by declaring themselves “weapons free”, they (IMO) make themselves responsible for ensuring it is, indeed, “weapons free”…
This case is a non-starter. She has the right to have a concealed weapon in a school as much I have a right to bring a concealed weapon to a court room or the state house. There are certain areas where guns are a dangerous liability and the states (and nation) have an obvious interest for preventing guns in these classrooms. Too much can go wrong. If she takes a shot at her ex and hits a student, oh man. Now that would make the news.
BTW, I hate this urban legend. Schools are the safest buildings in the country. Columbine and Virginia Tech made the news for obvious reasons, but, as a whole, there is no safer place to be than inside the classroom.
Oh, and wasn’t there a news report last week about some gunman chasing a man he’d just shot into a junior high school WITH HIS WEAPON? Luckily, the school was able to go into lockdown and no one else was hurt, but I think that had a lot to do with the man who was shot calling for help. But, it was still a situation of someone bring a gun into a “weapons free zone”…
Miss Ladybug-
I can understand, although may not agree w/ the argument of allowing teachers or college students to CCW to protect against serious bodily injury or deadly force in a Virginia Tech or Colombine incident, or even potential violence on a more personal level.
However, the whole prospect of armed terrorists taking over a school is lost on me in the context of this debate. I don’t think it’s impossible, but if the terrorists are trained for such a school takeover to kill everyone, I don’t think a bunch of Joe and Jane Doe teachers carrying their 38specials will do much against such an onslaught.
The more likely scenario of terrorists taking over a school would involve a hostage scenario where students and teachers are used as hostage leverage to force our government to convey some type of tangible benefit to them. In this scenario, I would prefer the trained law enforcement and military professionals to defend the situation, rather then pistol packing teachers which seems a little Hollywood to me.
Thats just my 2cents. I just can’t see the terrorist invasion angle as furthering the school/teacher CCW argument, but I certainly don’t think this is a simplistic topic, and I respect the different points of view.
There are also armed law enforcement officers in courtrooms. You can’t compare the courtroom (where tensions and emotions can run very high on a regular basis) with the classroom. Some schools are war zones. Thankfully, not any I work in as a sub. But I also see how vulnerable some schools allow themselves to be. Some campuses (elementary) keep all doors locked except the main entrance. Other campuses keep doors open, so anyone walking down the street could enter the building and go pretty much anywhere they wanted. Some schools require teachers to keep classroom doors closed and locked. Some schools have no policy at all - doors can be wide open, or closed, but not locked. A combination of anyone gaining access to a school building without having to go by/been seen by the front office combined with unsecured classroom doors is a potential recipe for tragedy. If an employee of a school is deemed by law enforcement to be capable of carrying concealed with a permit, they should be allowed to carry in a school.
Buck I~
The odds of being the victim of a Beslan-style school invasion? Nationwide, probably fairly low. No, school employee with a CCW permit wouldn’t save everyone, but they could possibly save those in their immediate vicinity. Having a CCW (which I do not)is kind of like having car insurance. You probably won’t ever need to use it, but you’re better off having it, “just in case”. In a situation like that (Beslan), being armed might allow a teacher to get his students out to safety. These days, I wouldn’t trust terrorists to just take hostages and make demands. That’s what we expected for airplane hijackings, too, untill 9/11. Times have changed.
It seems that a lot of people have the wrong idea about concealed carry - both the people who carry and how they use their firearms.
In the majority of cases each year when a private US citizen uses a firearm to prevent or stop a violent crime, the weapon never leaves the holster. Just making the presence of the weapon known deters the crime. In the instances when the firearm is drawn, most of the time it is not discharged to deter the crime. It is the minority of instances that discharging the weapon is required to stop the incident. Furthermore, concealed firearm permit holders nationwide tend to be the most law abiding citizens in the community. The percentage of concealed carry permit holders who have interactions with police for even minor violations such as traffic citations, is far below that for the average citizen in all data I have seen thus far.
I carry, have lots of friends who carry and have met many others who conceal carry, in classes, seminars and online. I have yet to talk to one who ever wants to be in a situation where they have to use their weapon. I have no doubt in my mind that such people exist, however, from all I have seen and heard they are a tiny minority.
As anyone can guess, I am in favor of allowing concealed carry in schools. I would not be opposed at all to having reasonable advanced training requirements to do so. Advanced training for unique situations is not unusual. Advanced training is required for certain scuba activities, the law requires additional training to operate a motorcycle and other vehicles on public roads, etc. I would find it an appropriate requirement to legally carry in schools.
As to HS students carrying handguns, I’m pretty sure that in all 50 states you have to be 21 to legally own a handgun. In several states you must be over 21 to obtain a conceal carry permit, for example, in Missouri you must be 23.
I can easily see both sides of this discussion. However, there are a number of programs where prior military personnel are recruited to teach and many simply choose it as a calling. Those individuals and many others without military training could help save the lives of the children if the worst were to happen.
With regard to safeguarding weapons in the classroom, there are small safes that could be integrated into desks that would prevent the theft of a weapon (I have one in the closet of my bedroom) that operates with a key and number sequence (both are required). The teacher would have quick access- anyone else would not.
We, as a nation, have to stop thinking it is someone else’s job to keep us safe. Police will tell you they are not able to provide personal protection. They respond to incidents and that is unfortunately often too late. It is simply a matter of numbers and geography. Try dividing the population of your local area by the number of police on duty at any given time. Also try it between square miles/police.
Consider also that 9/11 was multiple, coordinated attacks. Try imagining an attack at one school that directs all available police to one school. Then another. Then another. If I had a child in school, I would want someone there with a weapon.
All presented for consideration. And it is nice to be part of a grown-up, civil discussion.(the usual trolls notwithstanding)
Rusty: “This case is a non-starter. She has the right to have a concealed weapon in a school as much I have a right to bring a concealed weapon to a court room or the state house. There are certain areas where guns are a dangerous liability and the states (and nation) have an obvious interest for preventing guns in these classrooms.”
Actually, not so. While certain areas are presently off limits to CHL holders, this apparently does not apply here. And it begs the question of whether or not CHL holders should be barred from legally carrying in those areas as well. After all, every one of them has had a criminal background check. Every one of them is a LEGAL gun owner. In America, we are PRESUMED innocent, morally upright, and mentally competent until proven otherwise.
I remember taking my target rifle to high school (I was on the rifle team) and carrying it to the range for storage during the day (the team met after school). No fuss. No muss. Walk it in, put it in the storage rack, go to classes. Practice on the range when classes let out.
When I was in college during deer season, not only did the instructors bring their deer guns to school, so did the students. And not only in the University, but in the town’s high schools, too.
So, your statement: “…the states (and nation) have an obvious interest for preventing guns in these classrooms” is pure unmitigated nonsense!
The state has an obvious interest in PREVENTING CRIMINALS from committing armed violence, not only at schools, but everywhere. But since they cannot, people like you have taken the liberty to declare schools “VICTIM DISAMAMENT ZONES” where only the criminals are armed. Author L. Neil Smith, in his essay Murder by Gun Control expresses it much better than I can:
And as for Columbine, Smith says:
Read the rest at his website.
This is where it’s helpful if you know Oregon law and it’s obvious you do not. Since I live in Oregon and have a concealed-carry permit I know the law. In Oregon it is legal for me to go onto any public property or into any public building carrying concealed, except for airports and courthouses. I can walk into any public school in the state carrying and I am perfectly legal. If it was a private school they could have a policy that says firearms are not permitted, but they can’t do that in public schools under the Oregon constitution.
Just so I make it perfectly clear; if you have a permit to carry you can legally carry on the grounds of any public school. And by public school that means any school funded by taxpayer money, that would include the University of Oregon, Oregon State, Portlnd State University, etc.
How many gunmen would it take before you think the National Guard should handle the situation rather than responsible adults who are already there? Do you have any idea how long it would take to get the National Guard to the scene.
Before we get too far off topic, the teacher in this case is worried her ex will come to school and try to kill her. Should she wait for the police if he does try and kill her or defend herself?
As far as respecting all opinions you went off on my previous post, but I’m puzzled why…what’s your point?
I’m not playing games, I think this woman has a right to carry her weapon to school to defend herself.
“God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.”
There are many guns, and this one is mine-Her name is Sig 9mm and shes pretty with a Crimson Laser Trace sight.
GSP
In situations like this, liberals are dangerous. What better place to commit a crime than on a campus that prohibits people from owning guns? It brings to mind several incidents where defenseless people have been killed without any means of defending themselves. Even law enforcement can pose a threat, considering the Michigan deputy that killed 6 people. Without a means of protecting ourselves the government is a very poor substitute for peace-of-mind. If the liberals need any evidence, they might ask themselves “if Bush is doing such a horrible job with the war, how could he possibly keep them safe?”…Hmm?
I took a gun to school once. Sophomore English how to speech: How To Clean a Shotgun. I took my 20 gauge 870 Remington.
I was required to keep it in the principal’s office before and after and I got the standard “I trust you” line before asking me to work the action, I complied.
All went well, don’t recall what grade I received on the speech.
No, but let me explain. I do think an 18-year-old should have the right to carry a gun, even if they are still a high school student.
But given that there are X number of 18-year-olds for every one teacher, and that the 14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds should NOT be permitted to have a gun, giving it to students - even legal-age students - who would not have a way to keep track of/secure that weapon would be dangerous.
This comes back down to privacy laws. True, you have to get licensed to carry a gun, but I believe most - if not all - states that allow conceal carry also keep that license private. In fact, I’m pretty certain there have been a few legal scuffles when people have tried to PUBLISH lists of licensed CC permit holders.
Why? Because it gives criminals a ready-made list of easy targets. Like me, who wants to own a gun but cannot afford a decent one at the moment.
If the privacy of CC license holders was protected, and teachers were able to carry in school, I think the odds of 1) a teacher TELLING his/her class he/she has a gun is slim to none and 2) students KNOWING said teacher had a gun would also be slim to none.
Unless, of course, the teacher had just cause to use said gun…which would probably frighten most students out of trying to steal it anyway, after seeing it used.
When I was in high school, several of my classrooms were former open-concept rooms closed off by floor-to-ceiling cheap walls and NO doors. After Columbine, we ran through an emergency lockdown drill during homeroom. My teacher who - at the time - was six or seven months pregnant, had to leave the door-free classroom first, and told us she had to stick HER head around corners in case the shooter was there as she led us to a classroom with a door.
I always thought it wrong that she could get blown away while trying to save us, but not given the right - the CONSTITUTIONAL right - to defend us. And that, if she was shot, the rest of us were pretty much S.O.L. anyway.
As I said above, an unarmed populace is at the mercy of its rulers. And that is never a good thing.
Are you talking about the Crandon, Wis. shooting?
The problem with law enforcement is
1) Wait times. Often, even if you CAN make a call while being robbed, attacked, etc. what are the chances the police will show up?
2) Correct me if I’m wrong, but I also believe there have been court rulings that basically saw law enforcement have no obligation to PROTECT the citizens from crimes - only to go after criminals after a crime has been committed.
As we all see from government-run…well, pretty much ANY government-run program…government is inefficient and bloated. Why in the world would we want to give government MORE power - especially the power to protect our lives? I’m against socialized medicine because I don’t want some elected bean-counter deciding I’m not worth treating; likewise, I support CC laws because I don’t want some anti-gun peacenik politician to decide if and when the cops may or may not save me from criminals.
Like before, if criminals cared about violating CC laws (and rape, robbery, murder laws)…they wouldn’t BE criminals, and this would be a moot point. But criminals don’t care.
And we have every God-given, Constitutional, and natural-law right to defend ourselves.
And - apologies for the triple post - but for those of you interested in terrorism and our schools (think Beslan), the text from a PowerPoint presentation regarding terrorism and our schools. The text can be found at this link.
Make no mistake, the jihadists believe they have EVERY right to murder 2 million of our children, and they will do so by attacking our schools. If our schools are unarmed and unprotected, I can’t imagine the horror.
Read especially the text from slide #7 - preferred schools will be in states that do not allow conceal carry, states without hunting populations, and where police are insufficiently armed.
The threat of jihadists running amok in our schools is also a key element to the argument of arming this woman.
If we deny the right for school teachers to be fully armed then the terrorists have already won.
I have noticed the usual trend from one side - it’s generally “Mr or Ms JQ Public packing heat (usually a Saturday night special) and we get an OK Corral in our schools”.
These were the same arguements used in Florida prior to CCW and the Castle Doctrine.
Has anyone noticed massive gun battles in the streets of Florida now that everyone is packing heat? Of course not. Believe me, if there were massive gun battles on the streets of Florida every day it would highlight every newscast on all the networks.
Criminals love “gun-free zones”. It’s a sign that they can go in and literally do whatever they want with no real fear of any kind of serious opposition.
I’m reminded of the massacre at the Luby’s restuaraunt in Texas, where the woman watched her parents murdered just s few feet away from her by a criminal with a gun.
Where was her gun?
She’d obeyed the law and left it out in her truck. Luby’s was a “gun-free zone”.
Then there’s the “terrorist” arguement - that a couple of teachers armed with .38’s couldn’t hold off a group of determined terrorists armed with machine guns and rocket launchers. Duh. They’re not supposed to.
If you’re going to use that arguement then you’d better be converting to radical Islam because you don’t feel that any defense is worth trying - and because of people like you the terrorists are going to win.
WIth regards to guns in schools, how many people here know that at one time many schools has shooting clubs? That’s right; there used to be shooting teams, and competitions.
If the mere presence of guns in school causes a massacre, then why weren’t there multiple massacres at schools that had gun clubs?
Don’t let America become another England!
I didn’t read all the posts above so I don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but now that everyone KNOWS she has a gun she’s ruined her chances of ever having one on the campus. The trick for concealed carry is that your attacker doesn’t know you’re armed.
Silly woman.
People who are against any weapons on school property are virtually guaranteeing that another Columbine would be successful. How will you stop the crazed murderer(s) who ignore(s) the “Gun-Free Zone” sign? Hey, if those signs worked, we could just put up “Crime-Free Zone” signs everywhere! Problem solved!
Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Why concealed? Wouldn’t unconcealed guns be an even greater deterrent to crime? Teachers should have holsters, and possibly bandoliers.
The idea of the teachers that I had in high school being armed is either hilarious or terrifying, depending on who we’re talking about. The idea of my dorm mates or frat brothers in college being armed is appalling.
jhsii-
Do you know where the origin of the “Saturday night special (snp)” comes from?
I’ll give you a hint-It’s from the 1950’s when the klan was terrorising black americans and their supporters. Lately, the term has come to made a poorly or inexpensive firearm.
Would my firearm that cost $350 be considered a snp because I can’t afford a $900-$1000 firearm or do we as Americans judge the worth of a person by the type of firearm they choose to carry for self-defense?
BTW; My gun is a Sig-Arms P-226 9mm, and Sig is definately not a cheaply made firearm. Of course there are Berettas, S/W, Ruger, and several other brands that are also inexpensive as well.
Expensive doesn’t always mean better; and remember David slew Goliah with a sling shot and not a spear or sword.
Folks be careful with the snp description and know where its history came from before you use it. GSP
As a great philosopher once said,
Don’t go to
partiesschools with metal detectors. Sure, it might feel safe inside, but what about all those (beep)ers outside with guns?They know you ain’t got one!
gunslingerpatriot…
The Sig is not what I would call a Saturday Night Special. I carry the P-228 Sig which was and still is police issue in my department just outside of DC. It’s a great weapon and I’ve grown very comfortable with it.
Typically reference to a Saturday Night Special (SNS) refers to a cheap (and cheaply made), small pistol such as a .22, .25 or .380. I have a little Raven Arms .25 I inherited. It is pretty cheaply made and I think it retailed for around $65 new in the mid-80s. The Sig P-226 is far too large and high quality to be considered a SNS. Also a new P226 is going for $700+, so not a cheap gun either.
Anyway, my understanding was that JHSII was referring to the ignorant dumb masses in the MSM who make reference to SNS and gun fights in the street. He was pointing out the ridiculousness of their argument and that such dire predictions have never come to pass in any state where CCW or “Castle Doctrine Law” have been enacted.
I agree, but after following the gun control debate for over 7 years; every anti-gun poltician (this also includes hci-the brady group) that I have heard has used the snp as an execuse for more restrictive gun control laws.
Sig P-228 its a nice piece of hardware, and I am assuming its a .40
gunslingerpatriot-
Did you bother reading what I was posting?
9mm
http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/228/228.htm
Could be worse. They could outlaw smoking. Oh, wait…they already won that one!
Oregon (liberal) lawmakers are at this very moment writing legislation to change Oregon law so she can’t carry in a school. How do I know this? I was born a raised here.
Kovacs, your humor was not lost on me…that was funny.
deepdiver
That’s it.
I can tell you from personal experience that it is very accurate and very dependable even when under fire.
The idea of the teachers that I had in high school being armed is either hilarious or terrifying, depending on who we’re talking about. The idea of my dorm mates or frat brothers in college being armed is appalling.
alohaguy…
Good points but I would add that the 18 year olds in your scenario first undergo a minimum of 16 weeks of rigorous training and then are deployed with strict Rules of Engagement and supervised by a chain of command that will not tolerate criminal activity.
Imagine authorizing high school seniors who are MS-13 members to carry handguns to class. No thank you.
You and I are in total agreement when it comes to the teacher.
Thanks deepdiver for the link, and I just assumed that all the local police agencies had switched over to the .40 and didn’t know it was a 9mm.
GSP
I probably should have mentioned that I also usually carry a P228. = )
I pray that I never have to find out how well it does under fire, but if I do, any deficiencies will be mine and not the weapon’s.
To clarify and correct an earlier post - Fed law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f6
Interestingly enough, per http://www.handgunlaw.us AL, CA, DE, IN, IA, ME, MD, MT, NH, ND, SD, TX, VT, and WY have a minimum CCW age of 18. All the rest except MO are 21, and MO is 23. My memory was wrong in the earlier post.
Quite true and I would probably agree with that. I did want to note that 18 year-olds are adults and in the right set of circumstances - as you rightly point out - can be amazingly responsible. And I made the assumtion that to carry a weapon you have to be law-abding. But good points.
oops “assumption” and “abiding” of course - too early in the Pacific…
AlohaGuy…
I think we’re on the same page here.
I was 18 when I joined the Army and 19 when I served in Vietnam with the 1st Infantry Division. I came to know a lot of brave 18 & 19 year olds, a few whose names are now inscribed on the Wall.
I was 21 when I went through the police academy.
These shooters had guns even if there were rules against it. Pay particular attention to August 2006!
Feb. 2, 1996
Moses Lake, Wash. Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.
March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland 16 children and one teacher killed at Dunblane Primary School by Thomas Hamilton, who then killed himself. 10 others wounded in attack.
Feb. 19, 1997
Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.
March 1997
Sanaa, Yemen Eight people (six students and two others) at two schools killed by Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri.
Oct. 1, 1997
Pearl, Miss. Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
Dec. 1, 1997
West Paducah, Ky. Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.
Dec. 15, 1997
Stamps, Ark. Two students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot.
March 24, 1998
Jonesboro, Ark. Four students and one teacher killed, ten others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods.
April 24, 1998
Edinboro, Pa. One teacher, John Gillette, killed, two students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.
May 19, 1998
Fayetteville, Tenn. One student killed in the parking lot at Lincoln County High School three days before he was to graduate. The victim was dating the ex-girlfriend of his killer, 18-year-old honor student Jacob Davis.
May 21, 1998
Springfield, Ore. Two students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home.
June 15, 1998
Richmond, Va. One teacher and one guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway.
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colo. 14 students (including killers) and one teacher killed, 23 others wounded at Columbine High School in the nation’s deadliest school shooting. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.
April 28, 1999
Taber, Alberta, Canada One student killed, one wounded at W. R. Myers High School in first fatal high school shooting in Canada in 20 years. The suspect, a 14-year-old boy, had dropped out of school after he was severely ostracized by his classmates.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Ga. Six students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend.
Nov. 19, 1999
Deming, N.M. Victor Cordova Jr., 12, shot and killed Araceli Tena, 13, in the lobby of Deming Middle School.
Dec. 6, 1999
Fort Gibson, Okla. Four students wounded as Seth Trickey, 13, opened fire with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun at Fort Gibson Middle School.
Dec. 7, 1999
Veghel, Netherlands One teacher and three students wounded by a 17-year-old student.
Feb. 29, 2000
Mount Morris Township, Mich. Six-year-old Kayla Rolland shot dead at Buell Elementary School near Flint, Mich. The assailant was identified as a six-year-old boy with a .32-caliber handgun.
March 2000
Branneburg, Germany One teacher killed by a 15-year-old student, who then shot himself. The shooter has been in a coma ever since.
March 10, 2000
Savannah, Ga. Two students killed by Darrell Ingram, 19, while leaving a dance sponsored by Beach High School.
May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. One teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.
Sept. 26, 2000
New Orleans, La. Two students wounded with the same gun during a fight at Woodson Middle School.
Jan. 17, 2001
Baltimore, Md. One student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton Eastern High School.
Jan. 18, 2001
Jan, Sweden One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19.
March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Two killed and 13 wounded by Charles Andrew Williams, 15, firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.
March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.
March 22, 2001
Granite Hills, Calif. One teacher and three students wounded by Jason Hoffman, 18, at Granite Hills High School. A policeman shot and wounded Hoffman.
March 30, 2001
Gary, Ind. One student killed by Donald R. Burt, Jr., a 17-year-old student who had been expelled from Lew Wallace High School.
Nov. 12, 2001
Caro, Mich. Chris Buschbacher, 17, took two hostages at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.
Jan. 15, 2002
New York, N.Y. A teenager wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School.
Feb. 19, 2002
Freising, Germany Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself.
April 26, 2002
Erfurt, Germany 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself.
April 29, 2002
Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself.
October 28, 2002
Tucson, Ariz. Robert S. Flores Jr., 41, a student at the nursing school at the University of Arizona, shot and killed three female professors and then himself.
April 14, 2003
New Orleans, La. One 15-year-old killed, and three students wounded at John McDonogh High School by gunfire from four teenagers (none were students at the school). The motive was gang-related.
April 24, 2003
Red Lion, Pa. James Sheets, 14, killed principal Eugene Segro of Red Lion Area Junior High School before killing himself.
Sept. 24, 2003
Cold Spring, Minn. Two students are killed at Rocori High School by John Jason McLaughlin, 15.
Sept. 28, 2004
Carmen de Patagones, Argentina Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.
March 21, 2005
Red Lake, Minn. Jeff Weise, 16, killed grandfather and companion, then arrived at school where he killed a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and finally himself, leaving a total of 10 dead.
Nov. 8, 2005
Jacksboro, Tenn. One 15-year-old shot and killed an assistant principal at Campbell County High School and seriously wounded two other administrators.
Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend’s mother.
Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.
Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself.
Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.
Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.
Jan. 3, 2007
Tacoma, Wash. Douglas Chanthabouly, 18, shot fellow student Samnang Kok, 17, in the hallway of Henry Foss High School.
April 16, 2007
Blacksburg, Va. A 23-year-old Virginia Tech student, Cho Seung-Hui, killed two in a dorm, then killed 30 more 2 hours later in a classroom building. His suicide brought the death toll to 33, making the shooting rampage the most deadly in U.S. history. Fifteen others were wounded.
Thanks for showing why are schools are the most in need of law abiding citizens trained in the use of firearms and that mace or karate won’t work.
BTW-August 24, 2006 is the best example why Miss Katz is concerned for her safety.
Do most people really think that gun incidents (for lack of a better term) are caused mostly by people who are legally allowed to carry them? Most of these “school massacres” or gun incidents either happen due to a criminal element or a mental defective i.e. Columbine. This woman is well within her rights to carry a weapon. But a big resounding THANK YOU to the idiots who made this a big deal: now her students know she has a weapon.
Let her protect herself. The cops and government never will. They only come in to clean up messes after the fact. It’s called a right you twits in the media. That’s not a privelege.
And just today, we have another school shooting:
3 Students, at Least 1 Teacher Shot at Cleveland High School