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1. #1
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:16 am, derel3433 said:

   The article is suggesting that it’s a bad thing that Seals aren’t allowed to kill random goat herders?

   Am I missing something?

2. #2
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:35 am, crashemt said:

   Yep, you are.

   Recon mission. Goat-herders would reveal their position. These men had to choose to allow the three to live, and possibly jeopardize their own lives, or kill them and face the war cry from our socialist press.

   No win situation.

   They made their choice, and more than likely paid the ultimate price for it when those goat-herders turned them in to Afghani rebels.

   That SeAL teams have to make these kind of political calculations in their heads while on patrol, or under fire, IS THE PROBLEM.

   It’s like playing a game of football, after you hand the other team your playbook and a script of your first hundred plays, and starting with a 50 point handicap. Oh, by the way, the referees (aka the press) will be watching to make sure you follow your script so the enemy has the most advantage possible.

   With this attitude, we never would have made it to the beach at Normandy.

3. #3
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:36 am, andrew c said:

   It’s a bad thing when they’re almost certain to get the team killed by telling the Taliban - which they did.

4. #4
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:38 am, ACHefty said:

   For those willing to fight for it, freedom has a sweet taste the protected will never know.

   Written on the flap of a C-Ration carton and found in the pocket of a dead Marine in Quang Tri province, Vietnam

   The same can be said for the NY Slimes (protected) and Lt. Murphy (the protector). May God bless his family.

   Andy, a former Marine Sergeant

5. #5
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 am, Jaded said:

   The reason these men died is the MSM who take a military action and turn it into murder.

   That any soldier would have to think about being found criminally liable before shooting and killing to protect themselves and their fellow soldiers is beyond the pale.

   I thank each and every one of our fine military men and women for keeping us safe.

6. #6
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 am, Just A Grunt said:

   To you they were goat herders. To the guy on the ground, who make a decision regarding life or death, they are scouts. And as we now tragically see they were indeed scouts who relayed the SEALs position to the Taliban which ultimately resulted in the death of a dozen of them.
   War is not what is portrayed in Hollywood movies. You need to watch the new Ken Burns documentary “The War” and see some of the things the greatest generation did. There is one story of a unit fighting on one of the south Pacific islands who captured some Japanese, and because of the terrible losses they had inflicted on the Marines they took the Japanese into the jungle and killed them.
   I will pass no judgment on any man’s actions in a war zone and neither should anybody else unless they have some first hand knowledge of the subject.
   I do know that the assertion that the liberal media has cost us lives in this war is in fact truth. Whether it is through the reporting of vulnerablilties of our body armor which enable the enemy snipers to better target our men or the armor weaknesses of our vehicles which allow the enemy to build better and more effective IED’s to attack them or simply plastering every misstep on the front page our media has been the biggest propaganda tool and moral booster for the enemy since Tokyo Rose.
   Lt Murphy made the decision not to engage and it cost us and the families of the men lost that day dearly. It was a decision not made out of military considerations, beyond the harm it would cause in the media.
   I do have one exit question. What happens when the men and women on the ground finally say it doesn’t matter what we do we will be persecuted so why not go ahead and do it and consequences be damned? You can only kick a dog so long before he fights back.

7. #7
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:50 am, meatpieandtatters said:

   Honor is something only meant for people like “the protector.” The fact that our scummy politicians deem themselves to be “honorable” in their titles, well just goes to show you how upside down their (and our) world really is. Time to herd all these fatted pigs out to pasture.

8. #8
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 am, trinitytim said:

   Andy,

   Do you have a link to the story about that great quote? I would love to read that firsthand.

   As for Lt. Murphy. I thank God we have men like him willing to give it all to protect his men and us.

   As for the NYT, the best newspaper for the bottom of the birdcage.

   Tim, a former 1st Infantry Division Sergeant who served in Vietnam.

9. #9
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:09 am, zorro said:

   “He took his deployment personally. He was going after, and his team was going after, the men who planned, plotted against and attacked not only the United States, but the city he loved, New York,” said his father. “He knew what he was fighting for.”

   Tears again. May God Bless and Keep Lt. Murphy and comfort his family.

10. #10
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:12 am, 30 pcs of silver said:

    Tim and Andy, thank you for your service.

    Lt. Murphy. May God rest your soul.

    All Gave Some, Some Gave All.

    #1, I hope that #2 and #6 gave you some food for thought.

11. #11
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:36 am, Sergeant Tim said:

    “Mentioning” is a fitting word for never in the War on Terror, in six year years since 9/11, has the NY Times honored America’s real military heroes. In addition, there is not even a mention of Lt. Murphy on their front page; not even a peep about him in their ‘Inside’ section pointing him out. Nor was there a mention there for Medal of Honor winners SFC Paul R. Smith or LCpl Jason Dunham when they made also made the back pages of the Times.

12. #12
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:43 am, ajmontana said:

    I’m looking forward to the Headlines across the country;
    “New York Times, R.I.P.”

13. #13
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:44 am, Regulus said:

    As a former Infantry officer and Cav Scout, here’s my take:

    The situation Lt. Murphy and his team encountered when they were encountered by the three Afghans was straightforward. You don’t murder prisoners; so you have to find another option.

    In much of their activities, particularly deep reconanissance, SEAL teams live or die based on their ability to get in and out without being detected.

    The vast majority of the time, no one sees or hears them. In the hours leading up to the mission in Grenada, for example, SEALs got close enough to Cuban positions that they could easily listen to hushed conversations, savoring the second-hand cigarette smoke while remaining unnoticed the whole time. That’s how good they are.

    But once you’ve been made, the recon mission is over. At that point, if I were in Lt. Murphy’s boots, then barring precise orders to the contrary my priority would be to extract my team ASAP. We blew it this time; tie up and gag the goat-herders and leave them somewhere they’ll be found later, get to the rally point and call in the chopper.

    Under most circumstances, we can attempt the mission again later.

    Military leadership places the highest premium on Mission Accomplishment, but that’s no justification for murdering people - even if they sympathize with the enemy - in cold blood. If I received patrol orders which included, “Kill anyone you meet, even non-combatants” I’d strongly question their legality as far up the chain of command as I could go.

    Forget about the predictable reaction of the liberal media; think of your obligations as uniformed servicemembers of the United States, and as civilized men.

    Obviously, none of us was there, so we can’t know the exact requiremets and parameters of Lt. Murphy’s mission. It would seem, however, that once he and his team were discovered their available options were few; that they didn’t murder the Afghans in their custody indicates that murder wasn’t one of them.

14. #14
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:46 am, swj719AWG said:

    “I am a soldier, I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight.”

    “Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I’d shoot a snake!”

    “It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.”

15. #15
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 am, ACHefty said:

    Tim, that was something we learned in boot camp (Plt 2055, F Co, 2nd Bn, Parris Island) in 1982. Sadly, I cannot yet find the exact story behind it, but as I recall, it had to do with a group of Marines who had just finished reading the latest Stars & Strips, which recounted the Fonda-style protests.

    This Marine wrote it down on his carton, put it in his pocket, and went out to battle.

    As for me, I never served in combat. I was honorably discharged in 1990 just before Saddam (may he rest in pieces) invaded Kuwait. Would I to do over again, I would still be in, hopefully wearing CWO bars on my collar.

    Remember, the object is victory.

16. #16
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:57 am, Kevin from Ohio in Virginia said:

    Just a Grunt,

    You have inspired me. A better and more accurate moniker for the MSM:

    The Tokyo Rose Media.

    The TRM has cost us many lives.

17. #17
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:04 am, DesertLover said:

    Hard to believe the NYT can be so callous that it does it’s level best to ignore the historic story of the honoring of a hometown hero.

    As I have stated before on Lt. Murphy’s family receiving his post-humous CMOH:

    I still think this award ceremony should be conducted in front of a joint session of Congress … after all … it is called the “CONGRESSIONAL Medal of Honor” … these underserving elected officials should have to come face to face with the family of this brave American hero that they had a large part in taking from them with their political anti-American actions.

    God bless Lt. Murphy and his family …

    DesertLover
    SSgt, USMC, Viet Nam

18. #18
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:07 am, JammieWearingFool said:

    More than 50 page A1 stories on Abu Ghraib, and finally after a couple of weeks, a genuine American hero gets a mention on page B1.

19. #19
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:12 am, Just A Grunt said:

    Did anybody see any live coverage of the event? I believe it was to be presented at 10AM today or have they delayed it? I did see his parents on Fox this morning. Here is a story of Lt Murphy’s team along with a picture of some of the other guys he served. Everybody in that picture with the exception of Marcus Luttrell was killed that day.

20. #20
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:17 am, radio relay said:

    Regulus,

    No sh!t Sherlock…

    Granted you don’t kill noncombatants. Even if you think they’re spies. That mission was toasted because those SEALs played by the rules.

    The rest of your take is B.S….

    SEALs carry out and complete “imperfect” missions all the time. It’s part of their mindset! Inspired by devotion to honor, duty, and training.

    In a perfect, Walgreens world, where all combat is hollyweird scripted, yeah, maybe Lt. Murphy, could have made the perfect decision. He didn’t. He made the imperfect, “honorable” decision not to take life perceived as innocent, and the tough, imperfect decision to carry through with the mission.

    “Woulda coulda shoulda”, Monday morning analysis of decisions made by another, who was under the duress of combat, borders on stupidity!

    Thank you, for your service….

21. #21
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:20 am, gunslingerpatriot said:

    hhhmmm….TRM has a nice ring to it

    LT Murphy sadly isn’t the first American serviceman to die while taking the media into consideration for second guessing their actions in combat and hopefully he should be the last.

    What makes his death tragic, is that even if they made the other decision to kill the scouts, they would have been tried by the TRM, congress (hello comrades democratic party) and if found innocent would have paid the price to their damaged honor beyond belief. Just a hint-take the Duke Lax scandal and magnify it on a global scale.

    RIP LT Murphy, and my prayers go with your family-even if the TRM and congress won’t say it.

    GSP
    HM1(AW), USN Ret.

22. #22
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:41 am, Kevin from Ohio in Virginia said:

    I shamefully neglected to mention the brave lieutenant in my post. My apologies.

    God bless him and his family. I am truly grateful for heroes like “The Protector.”

23. #23
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 am, dakine said:

    Regulus, very insightful post…I think you hit the nail on the head. I saw an interview with Lt. Murphy’s parents where they said basically the same thing.

    We live about 15 minutes from where Danny Dietz grew up, so the Murphy story got quite a bit of play around here in the media. These guys are the best of the best…flat out studs.

24. #24
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 am, mnmike said:

    Does anyone serious believe that the NY Slimes is capable of understanding such words as: Duty, Honor, Country?

25. #25
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:42 am, shooter said:

    I can’t thank the Armed Forces enough for my family, our freedoms, our very lives every day of every year.
    .
    I’ve seen much of the world and America is blessed to be so great and free BECAUSE of these fine and honorable men and women that lay their lives in front of our enemies.
    I teared up watching Marcus Lutrell and Murph’s parents this morning…and that doesn’t happen often.
    .
    I’m so very ashamed at our mass main stream media, so far left of center that even ahmamadjihad really believes he would be accepted and cheered at ground zero.
    .
    Congress, pay attention. We are being attacked all around the world by hateful islamofascists and without our total support from EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS you are endangering thousands millions of lives.
    .
    GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN IN SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY.

26. #26
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 12:16 pm, desertdweller said:

    At that point, Luttrell confessed that even though he wasn’t afraid of the Taliban, he was “afraid of the liberal media back in the U.S.A.”

    Will that help feed the liberal NYTimes’ American Guilt Syndrome?

    Nah — it doesn’t fit their agenda.

27. #27
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 pm, Boomer said:

    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 am, mnmike said:
    Does anyone serious believe that the NY Slimes is capable of understanding such words as: Duty, Honor, Country?

    I have to agree with you on this one the one time “paper of record” can on longer be trusted. Thank God we have such young people willing to put themselves between us and the Jihadist savages. There is nothing I can do or say other than thank you LT job well done may you rest in peace with the angels in heaven.

28. #28
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 pm, terrig said:

    I don’t believe the bird cage liner understands: Duty, Honor, Country. Thank God men and women like Lt. Murphy lived. If you haven’t read “Lone Survivor”, read it.

29. #29
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 pm, Regulus said:

    Good morning to you, Radio Relay.

    You can call my thinking BS if you want; it doesn’t change the essentials. Once they were discovered, the SEALs’ mission was blown and their options were limited.

    To begin with, this was not a combat mission, but a reconaissance. Recon missions deep in enemy territory are productive only as long as the recon element’s presence remains unknown. Once the enemy knows you’re around, two bad things happen: They stop unknowingly giving you actionable intelligence, and start hunting you. At that point, the mission is over.

    Unless you want to hang around for enemy reinforcements to arrive and play Rambo with the lives of your men; but dropping SOCOM operators behind enemy lines with guns blazing, not caring about whether they know you’re there or not, is what we have the 75th Ranger Regiment for. That’s not the SEALs mission.

    Indeed, returning to my Grenada example above, one of the chief criticisms of that operation was the casual use of SEALs as ersatz light infantry, which not only squandered their specialized training and capabilities but also caused them to incur heavy casualties.

    In his circumstances, once his team had been detected Lt. Murphy had a choice: He could abort the mission, or try to continue. Being a SEAL, he had long fangs: for these men mission accomplishment is a quasi-religion, and “imperfections” are something to be overcome if at all posssible.

    But Lt. Murphy had to weigh all the factors:

    - Regardless of whether they detained or killed the Afghans, how long would it be before those three were missed? Others would no doubt come looking for them, meaning that the area would eventually be crawling with unfriendlies, making both compromise of the team and a firefight engagement for which it was not intended much more likely.

    - Or, having been detected but temporarily having contained the loss of their stealth advantage, the SEALs could have chosen to scrub this particular mission and extract before things got further out of control.

    Was Lt. Murphy’s recon mission so vital that it warranted continuing despite having lost their secrecy? I wasn’t there, and I haven’t read Marcus Luttrell’s account yet, so I don’t know whether Lt. Murphy chose to try to go on with the mission despite the worsening odds, or whether he and his team were caught trying to extract.

    What I do know is that SEALs are a scarce and precious strategic asset, not to be sent into Battle-of-Little-Bighorn style firefights needlessly. I also know that right after Mission Accomplishent, a leader’s next priority is the welfare of his men and the preservation of his command.

    All I’m saying is that if in the absence of violating the laws of land warfare it was not feasible for Lt. Murphy’s team to accomplish their recon mission - and events showed that this was not only foreseeable once they were compromised, but actually was the case - then the next priority is to keep your SEALs alive to do what they do best on another day.

    Afghan goat-herders may grow on trees; SEALs don’t. In my book, 35-50 dead taliban for 3 dead SEALs is a taliban moral victory.

    My only other lingering question is why, when Lt. Murphy was weighing his options, it was the possible adverse media reaction and not the legality or morality of killing the prisoners that appears to have been prominent in his delibertions?

30. #30
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 1:55 pm, PaleoMedic said:

    Regulus,

    Read the book. You’re doing an awful lot of speculating with no background of the events.

31. #31
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 2:06 pm, radio relay said:

    Ok, Regulus…. I understood you the first time…

    My point… since you didn’t get it the first time… is to stop the second guessing. You were not there, Lt. Murphy’s family was not there. dakine was not there. I was not there. Let’s give Lt. Murphy, the benefit of the doubt. He made the best decision under the circumstances.

    And yes, the intentional distortion of military operations by the leftwing press, in favor of the enemy, and in detriment to US Forces, obviously played a part in the ultimate outcome of the mission, which resulted in the loss of this valiant American, Navy SEAL.

    May God bless and keep Lt Murphy. May God bless and comfort his family. May God help this nation.

32. #32
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 2:23 pm, Sergeant Tim said:

    JammieWearingFool #18 said:

    More than 50 page A1 stories on Abu Ghraib, and finally after a couple of weeks, a genuine American hero gets a mention on page B1.

    To be totally accurate, Lt. Murphy’s story appeared on page A21, in the U.S. section. To date, 1,621 stories about the incident about Abu Ghraib have appeared in the Times since January 17, 2004. The 912th story was a Reuters article in the World section the same day they ran SFC Paul R. Smith’s Medal of Honor further back, in the U.S., on page A12.

33. #33
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 3:04 pm, Bill DeFelice said:

    I can imagine the figure of Pat Tillman welcoming Lt.Murphy to join those in Heaven,who lost their lives,protecting the lives of all Americans.

34. #34
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 3:07 pm, CC said:

    Lt. Murphy: You are my hero. You are a shining example of what American courage is.

    Thank you, and all our troops, for making it easier for me and my family to sleep a little better at night.

    Your family must be so sad, but so very proud of you, as we all are.

35. #35
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 3:56 pm, thebronze said:

    Michelle,

    Just to clarify: SFC Russell (US Army) was NOT a member of SEAL Team 10. He was a member of the QRF/Rescue element that went in to get Lt. Murphy’s SEAL element.

    That should be changed to reflect facts.

    Otherwise, well done on reporting this event.

36. #36
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 4:56 pm, logdog said:

    Today, Pres Bush presented the Medal of Honor to the parents of Navy SEAL Lt Michael Murphy. This is the first time our nation’s highest military decoration was awarded for combat in Afghanistan. MSNBC and Fox News carried this live. However, CNN did not consider this historic event to be newsworthy. Instead, they covered ongoing wildfires and went to commercial break. Their lack of support for America’s fallen heroes is disgraceful…

37. #37
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:29 pm, Regulus said:

    My point… since you didn’t get it the first time… is to stop the second guessing.

    It’s not so much second-guessing as examining what was obviously a mission gone terribly wrong and attempting to understand what happened and why. But I can see how that can be seen as Monday-morning quarterbacking.

    What the SEALs do so well on a regular basis is to “stay out of the papers.” It is tragic testimony to their quiet effectiveness that we only read about their one spectacular failure, instead of the multitude of their successes.

    Whether it’s a reconnaissance or taking out a high-value target, SEALs go in, do the job and leave - and either nobody knows they were ever there, or nobody knows who did the deed, where they came from or where they went.

    Aside from the amazing physical and mental training it takes to be a SEAL, another key in their abilty to routinely do the “impossible” comes from their meticulous attention to detail - in mission preparation, immediate action drills and contingency planning.

    So Radio Relay is correct that SEALs overcome imperfections: it gives them a crucial edge in the fog of battle. While the other guys are still trying to sort out what’s happening, the SEALs have already shifted gears, seized the initiative and taken decisive action.

    Yet it is here that the descriptions in he post above raise an eyebrow.

    “On that fateful day in 2005, while conducting a reconnaissance mission in the Hindu Kush, their four man team was accidentally happened upon by three Afghani goat herders.

    What ensued was a discussion among the four SEALs about what to do with the three Afghanis. The rules of engagement weren’t specific enough for them to decide whether they should kill, detain, or release the men.”

    I read those words twice when I first saw them, and both times my reaction was, “WTF?”

    It is hard to believe that a SEAL element’s exacting mission preparation wouldn’t include a contingency for, “What happens if we get spotted by some local stumble-bum?” Yet if the above passage is accurate, that seems to have been the case.

    Similarly, it is puzzling that a “debate” seems to have ensued on whether to kill three men whose combatant status evidently consisted of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Equally perplexing is the apparent weight given to concerns about the opinion of the American media.

    In short, a lot seems to have gone wrong with this particular mission that led to several of our finest warriors losing their lives, and the apparent nature of what went wrong leads to some hard questions.

    I greatly admire Lt. Murphy’s selflessness, valor and coolness under fire that day. He deserves that Medal of Honor. This nation is poorer for his loss and that of his comrades.

    As it stands, I’m trusting that the higher-ups in SOCOM are asking and finding answers to the hard questions - so that the rest of us here in the land that Lt. Murphy gave his life to protect can go back to being blissfully ignorant of what other SEALs like him are doing on our behalf, in God-forsaken places around the planet, day in and day out.