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Comments

1. #201
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:27 pm, watershed said:

   #193

   And post #197 (“outlaw Islam”?!)comes in to clarify my point about making generalizations!

2. #202
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:27 pm, feebiebabe said:

   #198 – I pasted from your post….you re-read! I can read just fine, TY!

3. #203
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:28 pm, ajmontana said:

   Feebiebabe said,
   They would carry much more weight IMHO if when complaining about (IFAW), they were out there publicly and emphatically denouncing these militant and radical sects themselves.

   Yes, let them do that in their country of origin and lets see what happens. I’m sure the outcome would be beheading.

4. #204
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:30 pm, watershed said:

   #203

   There are many American born Muslims. Making this country their place of origin.

5. #205
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:31 pm, ajmontana said:

   Not the majority.

6. #206
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:32 pm, feebiebabe said:

   Watershed – less i point out you have not answered a question i’ve posed to you…..

7. #207
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:37 pm, watershed said:

   #206

   Do you mean the question “can we tell the diference between radical and moderate Muslims” one?

   I said that I think there is danger when the lines between the two are blurred, and then, as if by divine intervention, a post comes in and says that the US should OUTLAW ISLAM. I think that’s a great example of painting moderates and radicals with the same brush, don’t you?

8. #208
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:40 pm, watershed said:

   #200

   I am fully aware of how you “feel” about my posts.

   

9. #209
   On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:41 pm, feebiebabe said:

   #207 Quid pro quo watershed….if I answer this question, will you answer the previous ones I’ve asked you?

10. #210
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:42 pm, watershed said:

    Sure.

11. #211
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:44 pm, conservativesRus said:

    feebie – watershed doesn’t answer any questions ever as far as I can tell.

12. #212
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:45 pm, conservativesRus said:

    oops – sorry – any and ever – too strong.
    It’s a general statement, made in general terms. Observation

13. #213
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:46 pm, ajmontana said:

    Why does that commercial of the donuts in the forest to get you to fall into the meeting come to mind?

14. #214
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:48 pm, conservativesRus said:

    love the image aj – thanks

15. #215
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:50 pm, ajmontana said:

    Sorry, I’ve been reading but avoiding this thread I’d get the boot for engaging with toolshed. Our entire state is on fire including my home town and have that on my mind. should have just kept my trap shut on this one. again, sorry
    m6-6 out

16. #216
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:52 pm, watershed said:

    I am looking up your questions-

    “Can you say “Cognitive Clog”? Jeez, you are a piece of work Waterloo…”

    Um, “cognitive clog” is some kind of a personal jab at me, and I haven’t gotten personal with you or anyone.

    MURDER!!!??? Are you joking!!!!>???Watch what you say, Watershed.

    I said that the idea that the Koran teaches murder to all of its followers is a bigoted extreme view. I still feel that way.

    And do you really think we are so stupid we don’t know the differnce between a real terrorist and a moderate muslim???

    Maybe you aren’t. But certainly the poster who said to OUTLAW ISLAM might.

    Just like I would listen to the Rev Moon’s views?

    I have already stated my opinion about dismissing students on campuses who happen to be Muslim as Moonies. I think it belittles them.

    Are there any more?

17. #217
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:52 pm, Gabe said:

    Members of the Muslim Student Association, along with other organizations, also plan to hold protests outside Wednesday and Thursday evening’s Awareness Week events.

    By doing this, aren’t they proving the obvious–that there is no such thing as “moderate” Islam? Islamofacism Awareness Week is about criticizing jihad and the cruelty inflicted on Muslim females, and you would think that these Muslim organizations would support Horowitz if they truly were about peace and justice. And yet Muslim associations are fighting it.

    Islam=Fascism

18. #218
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:54 pm, Jim M. said:

    Watershed

    You really add nothing to the debate. You are one of the people like to tear things down.

    You “think”, you “believe”, etc. etc., yet you can point to no factual basis for that thought or belief. Instead, you try to tear down what others say, I guess in the hopes that they will become as thoroughly confused as you are.

    Here’s an example:

    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:14 pm, watershed said:
    #184

    i think the Muslim communities at these schools are afraid of the radical view that the Koran feeds Musilms hate and murder and that they will be lumped in with the terrorists. And I say, from reading examples on this very thread, that there is probably some truth behind their fears.

    Now, if that is what you really “thought”, it really makes no sense. Think about it. People who fear getting lumped in with some notion that all muslims are terrorists would protest an event that talks not about all muslims being terrorists but a small radical of the religion that arguably goes against the basis of the religion. If that was their fear, why are they not participating in an event like that, to show that not all those if the islamic faith follow those teachings?

    The fact that these events are being held cannot be the reason for the protest. Do they realize that freedom of speech is a right in the US? Are they not aware that discussions of this kind are becoming more and more prevalent?

    By protesting the event they are:
    1. Lumping themselves in with the radical element to show there is no such thing as a non radical muslim;
    2. Showing the world that islam has zero tolerance for free speech, and does not respect individual rights;
    3. In the end, bringing more attention to these events than the event would have had if they had kept their mouths shut;
    4. Appear to all the world they are trying to hide a dark secret.

    What their behavior shows me is that these organizations are protesting because they do have the ability to distance themselves from radical islam. Or maybe it is more accurate to say it is not that they do not have the ability – they CANNOT distance themselves. And if they cannot separate themselves from the radical element, perhaps they are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

    You are, of course, free to think anything you want. However, rational thoughts go a long way to keep you from embarrassing yourself in a public forum.

19. #219
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 6:55 pm, conservativesRus said:

    MURDER!!!??? Are you joking!!!!>???Watch what you say, Watershed.

    I said that the idea that the Koran teaches murder to all of its followers is a bigoted extreme view. I still feel that way

    Watershed – your feeling has no more validity than any other feeling. Support it or it’s not worthy of the space it takes here.

20. #220
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:00 pm, fred5676 said:

    To all apologists for the Religion That Must Not Be Questioned: I’ll spring for my taxes to be spent on a footbath as soon as a baptismal font (or even a Bible!) is allowed in the home country of that certain religion. And I am not religious – just rational.

    All those who bow down to Mecca 5 times a day are acknowledging the superiority of everything that Saudi Arabia preaches as part of that religion – BECAUSE THEY DON’T EVEN SPEAK UP TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Not to mention a schism or reformation.

    How would this go over with the “rational” among Muslims: one new mosque in America allowed for each new church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia?

21. #221
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:02 pm, feebiebabe said:

    #216 – Feudal.

    Just so I keep my end of the bargain, could you please pick out the questions you would like me to not answer?

22. #222
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm, feebiebabe said:

    PS AJ — I have my fingers crossed for you and SoCal right now.

23. #223
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm, watershed said:

    #218

    I have come across more than one person on this board who takes their side of a debate as “fact” and mine as “belief”.

    Your whole long post, in fact, is telling me somehow that everything you “feel” about the MSA is a “fact” as well (The sentence “what their behavior shows me,” for example, can only be translated as “this is what I feel about their behavior”).

    Truth is, Jim W., we just have different opinions, and we get to discuss them. It’s an American thing, and it’s very cool. That’s all.

24. #224
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:07 pm, watershed said:

    #221

    Feudal? I must admit i don’t know what you mean.

    Just tell me that you could maybe understand that someone who says to OUTLAW ISLAM might have a little bit of trouble making distinctions between moderates and radicals. You got pretty insulted by that idea.

25. #225
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:12 pm, ajmontana said:

    OT-
    Feebiebabe,
    Thanks, I’m good where I am but the old stompin grounds are toast. It is real ugly here in the southland.

26. #226
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:14 pm, Jim M. said:

    Watershed

    Sorry, but you have again missed the point. You back up noting you say here, you answer questions with another question, and you generally do not have a clue.

    You have stated in many of your posts:

    “I think” – you do not think. Thinking is a process the mind engages in to reach a conclision. You do not reach conclusions, you just jump to them. In essencve, what you are doint is regurgitating sometihng you have heard as a conclision. You keep moving the same matter up, chew on it some more and swallow it again. Cows are pretty good at doing that, but I do not think anyone would equate a cow that is chewing its cud as a creature deep in thought.

    “I believe” – as an agnostic, we can eliminate one thing you believe in. As to the other things you believe, they appear, based on the lack of any support, to be a belief placed there by a statement someone else made. You believe not because of the truth or veracity of the thing, you believe because it was implanted in your mind at some point in the past.

    “I feel” – we all feel. Invertabrates have nerve endings that allow them to feel. What separates man from the lower organisms is his ability to applu thought and have that thought control his feelings.

    You have put forth not one fact, not one cogent argument, on anything on this site with which you have expressed disagreement. You merely disagree because that is the way it is. And then you protest when someone takes a shot at you out of sheer frustration.

    Try something different for a change – THINK!

27. #227
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pm, Grey Fox said:

    Actually, I have to agree with Watershed that some of the anti-Islam statements have been a little over the top. It might be helpful for everyone on both sides to admit that this method of communication does not lend itself to very precise and nuanced argumentation and stop nitpicking so much.

    The problem is that Islam is a political and cultural ideology as well as a religion. Now, all religions, including atheism and agnisticsm, are going to inform a person’s view of how the culture and government ought to work. However, Islam goes far beyond most religions in this regard.
    Now, probably a majority of Muslims in this country do not wish to impose sharia law and reduce non-Muslims to Dhimmitude. However, a careful reading of history and historical interpretations of Islam will bring one to the conclusion that a pious Muslim is likely to lean in this direction, and as far as I can tell those who do not are the more secular ones – ergo, the more Muslim one is, the more likely one is to actively work towards this goal or at least sympathize with it. I believe that this is why so many Muslims are silent when asked to condemn terrorism – they may have some qualms about methods, but when the rubber hits the road they are more likely to close ranks rather than criticize one of their own, especially since it might open an awkward debate about how well Islam-the-legal-theory fits in with American religious freedoms. Wile I cannot say what goes on in the hearts of moderate Muslims in this country, I suspect that most moderate Muslims don’t have a good idea how to reconcile the two, and shutting down the debate might be a way to avoid hard questions in their own minds.

    Adding to the problem is that there definitely are Muslims in this country that do not explicitely endorse terrorism, but do wish to see America under Sharia law and actively work to undermine us from withing – one of the head honchos over at CAIR has said pretty clearly that he wants to see this happen. Further, the problem of taqqiya mentioned earlier in this thread combined with a general reluctance to criticize their own religious compatriots makes it nearly impossible to distinguish between terrorist-sympathizers, those who use our own laws against us but stop short of violence, and the general rank and file who may not even particularly like the idea of Sharia law but won’t speak out.
    Having a bunch of non-Muslims who scream “racism” everytime someone tries to deal with the problem and discourage assimilation only adds to the problem.

    Sorry if this is a little rambling.

28. #228
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:20 pm, watershed said:

    #226

    Good lord. What a condescending post. Even after my “we’re all Americans” comradery.

    Now I don’t “think” at all! And this opinion is presented as “fact” as well!

    Well, I certainly am well aware of how you “feel” now, thanks.

    

29. #229
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:27 pm, Leatherneck said:

    You forgot the examples I gave for outlawing Islam. Here is three more examples for you pal: World Trade Centers 2001, World Trade Centers bomb 1993, USS Cole, Kobar Towers, and CAIR’s known association with Hamas, a terror group. Oops, my bad, that was SIX more examples. Sorry. I’m not sorry!

30. #230
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:29 pm, conservativesRus said:

    Grey Fox….while your post has many points well reasoned, I need to point out that Islam has “enforced compliance”. They are to not just “kick out” the “heretic” (my word – meaning one who was Muslim but now leaving) – but rather kill them. This as far as I’m aware is a basic tenet of the religion. With this situation, it becomes rather difficult to take a stand against things done in the name of your religion as the penalty is your own death.
    Further, as far as the strong adherents interpret things, a non-Muslim is an infidel, deserves to die and they get bonus points for sending you to hell earlier. Not exactly the religion of peace.

31. #231
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:38 pm, feebiebabe said:

    - No, of course I do not agree with outlawing Islam (as a religon). But allow me to clarify.

    A political/judicial/and educational system which hides behind a religion (if indeed practiced as such) should not have the same benefit as other religions soley practicing just that religion? Isn’t that why liberals make such a big to do about separation of church and state?

    An example, Is the muslim religion protected from stoning a woman who cheated on her husband because it is their “religious belief”? I would have to say No!

    The muslim religion as a religion, and a religion only – when structured and acting in that sole capacity as such should be entitied to the same protection under our laws.

    However, any muslim sect which is over-reaching and incorporating their political/social/educational or judicial system within the context of their religion – I don’t believe is protected by our freedom of religion laws.

    This would be to me, considered another hostile government which laws should not superceed or be afforded protection under our own.

32. #232
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:41 pm, feebiebabe said:

    #227 – good post.

33. #233
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:42 pm, brooklyn red said:

    The upside is this needs to (finally) be done… Daylight is a powerful weapon.

    The downside is the left will spin this as “these poor people are oppressed! we need to bring them here”.

    Great, now Medicaid will forced to pay for “female circumcisions”.

34. #234
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:00 pm, acleaver said:

    Horowitz needs to be thoroughly called out and identified as persona non grata, someone with no right whatsoever to try and impose his fascist vision on universities.

    And this from the people who brought us Ahmadinejhad at Columbia…nice double standard, isn’t it?

35. #235
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:19 pm, 29Victor said:

    Wow. I leave for a little bit, come back and the same crap is going on. There are a lot more comments, but nothing has really changed.

    People are making points. Someone else is misinterpreting them (intentionally or no) and people are responding to that person. Sad.

    I have an exercise everyone:
    1) Walk up to a concrete wall.
    2) Tell it what you think.
    3) Bang your head on it.
    4) Repeat as long as you want.
    5) Take a good look at the wall and see what you have accomplished.

    That’s pretty much what you get when you try to have a rational argument with certain people on this thread.

    Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

36. #236
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 8:31 pm, ajmontana said:

    29 victor, have you been talking to my ex?

37. #237
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:04 pm, 29Victor said:

    #263
    heh.

    I gleened this from Hotair.com, so I assume many of you have already read it, but just in case you haven’t…

    Christopher Hitchens says much of what we are saying here, only he does it with bigger words and a really smart-sounding accent.

    BTW, I’ve always thought the word “Islamofacist” was actually a really nice way to phrase what our enemies are because it differentiates them from “normal” Islam. Like calling someone a “Mormon Fundamentalist” differentiates them from members of the LDS church. I always figured it was a way to show Muslims that we know that this is a bastardization of their faith.

38. #238
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:07 pm, 29Victor said:

    #226 Jim M.

    Well put. And you even managed to throw in a biology lesson.

39. #239
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 9:15 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    However, rational thoughts go a long way to keep you from embarrassing yourself in a public forum.

    

40. #240
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:04 pm, ajmontana said:

    That video is gut wrenching. Not good to watch before bedtime. Unreal.

41. #241
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:30 pm, zorro said:

    A very powerful film. Wow.

42. #242
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm, wolfpangloss said:

    That video is terrifying!

43. #243
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm, infidel4life said:

    On October 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pm, Grey Fox said:

    The problem is that Islam is a political and cultural barbaric totalitarian ideology as well as a barbaric totalitarian religion.

    That’s really all I need to know about Islam, especially after watching that film.

44. #244
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 10:58 pm, dakine said:

    Grey Fox, great post, and hard to disagree with anything in it.

    Jim M., feebie’s going to go “pot/kettle” on me I’m sure, but you’ve got an unbelievably high opinion of yourself and your ability to “reason” and “think” beyond the level of a normal human. It’s pretty friggin’ obnoxious.

45. #245
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:14 pm, ajmontana said:

    Dakine, you’re probably right but feebiebabe would do it in a polite manner. fwiw, made me laugh.

46. #246
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 pm, FloatingRock said:

    That video is powerfully stirring and would probably bring tears to the eyes of many of the most proudly unemotional men. I wish that everybody in the free world would watch it so that they too would understand what we are fighting. It’s unfortunate that many who would have the most to gain from watching it will refuse.

47. #247
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:31 pm, Jim M. said:

    Jim M., feebie’s going to go “pot/kettle” on me I’m sure, but you’ve got an unbelievably high opinion of yourself and your ability to “reason” and “think” beyond the level of a normal human. It’s pretty friggin’ obnoxious.

    I was getting ready to say, here we go with the passive aggressive crap again, but you did manage to express an opinion in the last sentence. That’s progress!

    My comments had nothing to do with my opinion of myself and everything to do with not being able and sit and listen to the skipped record play the same line over and over again. Sometimes you need to give the player a tap to get it back on track.

    I also get a little tired of people taking potshots at the reasoned opinions of others without backing up their position. Those are the people who say they want to debate a topic, then offer nothing that comes close to a debate.

    Now if you believe that providing insight to what passes for debate is “obnoxious”, than I guess you got me there. You did, however, miss the numerous attempts throughout the last couple of weeks to try reason, humor and coaxing to try to get Water Torture to understand that this is not a “less filling, tastes great” kind of exchange.

    Of course, your insult could be another liberal tactic of despair – when boxed in on an issue with nowhere to go, launch a personal attack against your opponent. What did you call that before? You know, the big word that means an unnecessary and out of line comment that adds nothing to the debate or the topic at hand? That word that you used when stating that you did not engage in such behavior. Ad hominem?

    I’ll see your ad hominem and raise you another – THE ROCKIES SUCK!

48. #248
    On October 22nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm, almeehan said:

    Some of the opinions (dogma) expressed above are very scary in that civilization faces the gravest threat possible from this evil cult. Any one attempting to propose a moral equivalence between islam and Christianity is out of touch with the harsh realities barely touched upon in the video. Thanks Michelle for posting. Every man, woman, yes and child should see it. If they are not offended, moved to a resolve to stop this evil, then they are part of the problem. The goal of Christians should be to pray for and attempt to rescue people caught in this. Some time back I was changing planes in an African airport during the pilgrimage of muslims to Mecca. I felt an evil presence and an unnatural fear from many of the folks there. I saw a muslim man in his 40s with a young “bride” who was in her burqua and partial face covering. She was obviously by her actions not more than 13 or 14, bare foot, but was by the interaction, his wife. She bowed before him and asked about looking at things she saw in the showcases. My heart went out to those trapped in this evil cult. Be afraid America, be very afraid.

49. #249
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 am, 29Victor said:

    #247 Jim M.
    Good stuff.

50. #250
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:18 am, dakine said:

    Jim M., you’re a smart guy and appear to pay attention to detail, so I’ll just assume you got on a roll and neglected to note that, at least in this discussion, I’m not “your opponent”. Go back and re-read my comments. Sorry…not a liberal either, so that little jab didn’t really have its intended effect (Barry Goldwater conservative to you). As to your parting shot, fortunately for me, I call Rockport, Mass my hometown, and I’ve lived in the Denver area for the past 13 + years. Sort of a no lose situation for me in this year’s World Series.

51. #251
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:21 am, Frank Siegler said:

    Can’t believe I read all of these posts. Now I know why I love God but reject religion. May I share a prayer?
    “Lord, Please protect me from your followers!

52. #252
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:22 am, Jim M. said:

    29 Victor,

    Thanks.

    At this point I am convinced that Dakine must be female: The reason being that the only people who seem to get that riled up at me are liberals of the opposite sex!

53. #253
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:26 am, Jim M. said:

    so I’ll just assume you got on a roll and neglected to note that, at least in this discussion, I’m not “your opponent”.

    I’ll concede that I was on a roll. When you see the number of typing errors I made, that is usually an indication that I am rolling!

    Can’t say anything bad about the Sox. Got me there.

54. #254
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:26 am, dakine said:

    Okay Jim M. Gotta give it to ya…that last one was funny.

55. #255
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 am, Speakup said:

    To see the physical and mental abuse of a societies most helpless, torture really; for the satisfaction of an appalling cultural custom shows the results of individual loss of rights and freedoms necessarily surrendered to provide for the all consuming control by the few by religious means is for myself a most detestable consequence of any kind of peace at any price and no society is immune to the seduction.

    For an attempt to over reach and gain ever more citizen control through SCHIP and many other such programs and use the media to blame and guilt to gain more control and at the very same time support the practice, import and institution of these same detestable practices into an open society without mandated restriction shows the true color of liberals and liberalism and how gladly, some actually allow their heads to forced down into the sand.

    So, Muslims and liberals listen up, your not the boss of me and you’re not going to be.

56. #256
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 3:03 am, SpeakEasy said:

    Such delicious irony!

    An awareness event being opposed by the “champions” of free speech.

    Gays and feminists in league (albeit implicitly)with the very people who would joyfully stone them to death (Islamofacists).

    To all who oppose awareness of Islamofacism I qoute Karl Marx:

    “The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”

57. #257
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 3:14 am, puhiawa said:

    Wonder what scarf Pelosi will wear? (It won’t match red, white or blue.)

58. #258
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 5:55 am, Dumpling said:

    Islam: The harbinger of hell upon earth. I dare anyone to try and prove otherwise.

59. #259
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 9:28 am, James Felix said:

    Hitchens rails against ALL forms of religion, as I have said before, and as an ex-all-boys-school-for-twelve-years-Catholic, I tend to agree with him! I am a scientific method agnostic today.

    My own education came from Jesuits. I’ll never stop being amazed at the number of atheists / agnostics Catholic school turns out.

    I do think however, that there are PEOPLE that are referred to here who believe these religions. My fear is that a whitewash of a religion puts literally millions of people under a rather radical view- that they ALL hate, they ALL learn murder from their good book.

    I would bet that even in the worst days of the Jim Crow South barely a fraction of a percent of the people down there were actually lynching their neighbors. Yet to this day the region is often labeled as irredeemably racist.Why?

    Because when you sit idly by and allow extremists to speak in your name then people assume (with no small justification) that you are an extremist too.

    I didn’t see you answer my question yet so I’ll re-ask it: if these people are truly peaceful moderates then wouldn’t their purpose be better served by protesting the extremists in their midst? Shouldn’t they be joining IFA Week?

    I said that the idea that the Koran teaches murder to all of its followers is a bigoted extreme view. I still feel that way.

    There is no rational basis for you to feel that way. The koran has verse after verse that explicitly directs its adherents to murder and subjugate non-believers. And those verses get emphasis every Friday in services all over the Muslim world, as Imams urge their followers to kill Jew, kill Americans, kill damn near anybody. There is no parallel to this in any other present day religion.

    If you’re saying that a majority of Muslims do not act on those teachings then yes, you’re correct. But to deny that they’re there is just denial. And even if it’s only one percent of Muslims buying into this nonsense (and a lot of data suggests it’s way more than that)the raw number of murderous psychopaths that represents is still terrifying.

    Which, again, could be helped a great deal by these peaceful Muslims doing more to marginalize the killers in their midst, rather than protest against people calling attention to them.

    And just as an aside, even if we take terrorism out of the equation Islam is a dispicable, retrograde belief system. The overwhelming majority of its adherents worldwide have beliefs that make Jim Dobson look like Dennis Kucinich. Honor killings, gang rapes and stoning homosexuals to death isn’t some appalling exception, it’s the rule.

60. #260
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:06 am, Laree said:

    Anyone catch the Special on Fox last Saturday night? The one PBS refused to AIR? I did, I was watching and shortly into the program, I had wished I was recording it. I hope Fox re runs this Special- Moderate Muslims vs Fundalmentlist Muslims…heres the thing, the Fundalmentlist call the Moderates the fringe and extremist and the minority. It was depressing but eye opening.

61. #261
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:07 am, ajmontana said:

    The Grannies forgot to add 3 lines to their jingle,
    We will Submit,
    Head in Sand,
    We will Submit.

62. #262
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 am, watershed said:

    #259

    My own education came from Jesuits. I’ll never stop being amazed at the number of atheists / agnostics Catholic school turns out.

    Jesuit ed here as well. And I am personally not that amazed. If not athiest/agnostic by now, most Catholics I know are conveniently devout and just go through the motions (church on holidays only types).

    Because when you sit idly by and allow extremists to speak in your name then people assume (with no small justification) that you are an extremist too.

    I disagree that the MSA’s (and the MSA’s concerns have been the focus of my posts from the start, NOT that Islamic extremism isn’t a threat, please address the points I make, anyone who responds) are letting extremists speak in their name. The extremists speak, and the MSA speaks, and their views are obviously different. The MSA’s are attempting to open up a dialogue through open question and answer forums, rather than create a simple black and white picture of their entire religion. Horowitz’s(and this site’s, frankly) use of the term “Islamo-fascist” is a perfect example of a whitewashing of a whole religion for it’s extremist elements. You can’t label an entire religion as fascist. There are a BILLION muslims in the world, many millions here in the US and hundreds of thousands at the very schools that Horowitz’s meetings take place. Every simgle one of translates the Koran differently, and not every single one of them translates the book the way the extremists do. Yet, even on this site, there are calls for OUTLAWING ISLAM in America, and that the only translation of the Koran is one of hate and murder. This bigoted and closeminded view of the religion of a BILLION people is the issue here, and what the MSA’s apparently fear. I say that the open forums that these students are condoning and offering might be the best way to see what American Muslims think and feel and actively do with their religious beliefs.

63. #263
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:25 am, terrig said:

    Laree, they’ve run it once already and I’m sure they’ll run it again. I thought it was just bits and pieces of the PBS special, was it the whole special?

64. #264
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 am, watershed said:

    Here’s a quote from the links above.

    Amin Odeh, a board member with the local Arab American Community Coalition, said he agrees that “radical anything is dangerous — radical Muslims, radical Christians, radical Jews. Education is needed.”

    But Odeh says Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week makes too general a link between extremism and Islam, and that the term “Islamo-fascism” links fascism with an entire religion.

    “Unfortunately, when people hear the term they don’t think of only a small group of extremists, but of Islam in general,” he said.

    Apparently so, as again, people on this very board have a view that Islam should be outlawed entirely in America.

65. #265
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:28 am, saintkansas said:

    OK, I’m jumping in late here, but I love this quote:

    if these people are truly peaceful moderates then wouldn’t their purpose be better served by protesting the extremists in their midst?

    Exactly. It’s the same reason the Islam is Peace campaign (UK) rubs me the wrong way. It’s always you, the non-Muslim, who has the problem, who is sick with “Islamophobia.” You are the problem… if you didn’t harbor this irrational fear of Muslims, there’d be no problem. Jihadists? What jihadists?

    The focus is always preventing bigotry and violence against Muslims, when frankly I’m more concerned about the next bus, train, or building bombing. And now “bigotry” extends to expecting Muslims to integrate into the culture, as everyone else has, rather than face lawsuits for serving pork products or not installing foot baths.

66. #266
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:33 am, 30 pcs of silver said:

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/254528.aspx

67. #267
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 am, James Felix said:

    Horowitz’s(and this site’s, frankly) use of the term “Islamo-fascist” is a perfect example of a whitewashing of a whole religion for it’s extremist elements.

    I think we’ve stumbled upon a fundamental miscommunication here. The term “Islamofacist” was coined specifically to avoid painting an entire religion with the extremist brush. If we wanted to dismiss the whole religion we wouldn’t need a new word… we could just say “Muslim”.

    “Islamofacist” refers to a very specific type of Muslim: one that holds to a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam and seeks to impose those beliefs on others, usually through violence.

    Amin Odeh, a board member with the local Arab American Community Coalition, said he agrees that “radical anything is dangerous — radical Muslims, radical Christians, radical Jews. Education is needed

    That’s true, but…

    Radical Christians are trying to get Intelligent Design taught in science class.

    Radical Jews are trying to get Mel Gibson movies banned for being anti-semitic.

    Radical Muslims are murdering tens of thousands of people every year and throw a riot at the slightest perceived insult.

    I think maybe one of those groups of radicals presents a more immediate problem than the other two. And I think every time a purportedly moderate Muslim makes such an absurd comparison he does harm to his cause.

68. #268
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 am, granite said:

    “… said he agrees that “radical anything is dangerous — radical Muslims, radical Christians, radical Jews. Education is needed.””

    Two tactics – another two-fer!:

    First, We are told that every one is the same: radical this, that, and the other thing.

    Second, we are told education is needed.

    Over the past cuppla decades, I’ve become quite suspicious with the connotation the word education has often been given when used in arguments by adherents to a certain worldview …sort of the way the words or terms empower, raise awareness, comprehensive reform, and others are often used.

    Ever notice when a Muslim spokesman, when appearing on a news or opinion program, is asked the question, “Do you condemn the bombing of __________ (insert whatever evil example from the Phillipines, Nigeria, Israel, Iraq, etc, that is the result of an Islamic terrorist or homicide bomber)?”, the answer seems always – always, without exception – to be, “I condenmn all bombing of innocents, of innocent Palestinians by the Israelis, blah, blah, blah,….”
    In essence, a non-answer.

    Yet again, all religions are NOT the same.

    And still yet again, please, folks;
    I am not now asking, nor have I ever asked, anyone to take my word for it.

    What I have asked, and am asking YET AGAIN, is for folks to read Robert Spencer’s books, and Bat Ye’or’s books, before asking us to believe a (paraphrease here) Rosie O’Donnell-type whopper, such as, fundamental Christianity-is-as-much-of-a-danger-as-radical Islam.

    Please.

    Using, essentially, “they’re all the same” as a debating point indicates that one does not have a debating point.

69. #269
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 am, watershed said:

    #267

    You and everyone I discuss this with on this site ignore the very evidence here on this site that people DO think of all Muslims this way. There was a call to OUTLAW ISLAM on this very site.

    You don’t see how perhaps the MSA’s of these universities might be afraid of that kind of view being harbored and strengthened, especially after a meeting showing the most extreme X-rated videos of the very worst their religion has to offer?

70. #270
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 am, watershed said:

    #268

    Again, I am not arguing that radical Islamic extremism isn’t an issue. It’s the idea of whitewashing all Muslims with that brush that I am debating, and have been from the start.

71. #271
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:00 am, max said:

    Watershed, I’m just curious… Do you think it would about as easy to create as impactful and frightening a video of current Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu x-rated religious travesties as it was to create the one posted above that depicts Muslim outrages?…If not, about how much more difficult would it be? 10x, 100x, 1000x?

72. #272
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:05 am, granite said:

    It does not matter whether all Muslims engage in, actively support, passively support, or passively – and I stress the word passively – oppose, Islamic terrorism.

    The fact is, only a teeny-tiny, not influential, powerless minority seem to speak against it now and then; and, as far as I am aware, none of them (except the Iraqi military & police; and perhaps the Saudis and Pakistanis, now and then [as part of a power struggle, certainly not to oppose evil]), actually go and kill terrorists.

    Therefore, what we are told comprise the majority of Muslims are essentially of no help – none – in the war against terrorism.

73. #273
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:12 am, watershed said:

    #271

    Can I more plainly say that I do not have an issue with combating fundamentalist Islamic extremist terrorists? That I just don’t want innocent peaceful Muslims in America and here all thought of as evil? (See “OUTLAW ISLAM” posts, et al.)

    As for creating frightening, impactful videos about other religions, ever catch “The Eternal Jew”? It’s a pip.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Jew_%28film%29

74. #274
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 am, James Felix said:

    You don’t see how perhaps the MSA’s of these universities might be afraid of that kind of view being harbored and strengthened, especially after a meeting showing the most extreme X-rated videos of the very worst their religion has to offer?

    And where do you suppose they got a lot of that footage? From Muslims who eagerly circulate that stuff because they are proud of what they’ve done.

    No one, and I mean no one does more PR damage to Islam than its own followers do.

75. #275
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:18 am, watershed said:

    #271

    I think a “Buddhist’s are evil” video might be a true impossibility, but who knows? There are some great filmmakers in the world. They would just have to be really twisted to make it.

76. #276
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am, watershed said:

    #274

    Looks to me like Horowitz is circulating the stuff.

    So you can’t see how the moderate Muslims of the MSA’s would be concerned about an OUTLAW ISLAM type of reaction?

77. #277
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:32 am, max said:

    Watershed, somehow I knew you’d leap to examples of Nazi propoganda and use it to present some implied and cock-eyed notion of similitude with the Horowitz video…

78. #278
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 11:44 am, James Felix said:

    Looks to me like Horowitz is circulating the stuff.

    But where is he getting it from? He’s getting it from the enthusiastic jihadists that truly give Islam a bad name.

    So you can’t see how the moderate Muslims of the MSA’s would be concerned about an OUTLAW ISLAM type of reaction?

    I think the MSA’s wouldn’t have a problem in the first place if they worked all along to condemn this stuff and make it crystal clear on which side they stand. If they did that then IFAW wouldn’t be needed.

    But they don’t, so it is.

    Tell me honestly, if there was a radical Christian awareness week including films of abortion clinic bombings and abusive priests would you have the same issues about it?

79. #279
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 12:26 pm, watershed said:

    #278

    So the innocent moderate American Muslims don’t do enough to prove they’re innocent moderate Muslims besides living, working, raising families, paying taxes, and going to school in this country; protesting against being seen as extremists, and opening forums to the public to explain their point of view. Got it. The ONLY way you see that they can be seen as anything but extremists is if they join with your point of view. Got it.

    Tell me honestly, etc.

    Yes, I would. My family is Catholic. And I must say that you should look at your own jump to the conclusion that I must be anti-Christian if I hold the view that maybe these videos foster an extreme image of Muslims.

80. #280
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm, RetFireman said:

    Watershed,

    You are holding my post up repeatedly as a sign of bigotry and one that “dismisses” an entire world religion, yet you have done NOTHING to refute anything I said in that post, especially as it relates to the subject matter at hand. Your not-so-subtle attempts to portray me as a one man lynch mob, and the reason that thses groups should go around denouncing ANYONE who has the slightest concern towards the fact that every world conflict that is killing mass numbers of people on this planet today is related to Islam as a bigot does not enhance your claim or statements.

    I want you to go through my post and I want you to refute anything I said with facts. Your name calling means nothing to me, and all you do is try to gin up support for your weak little diatribes here. Many posters have challenged you, yet all you do is repeat the failed message you have tried to send out. Whitey bad, Islam good and just totally misunderstood. The fact is, we have been hit over the head with “You just need to understand them” ever since over 3000 Americans were slaughtered in a sneak attack over 6 years ago by 19 members of that misunderstood religion as they chanted “Allah is Great”. The same chanting that goes on as they snipe our soldiers, cut the heads off of innocents, burn villages and slaughter their inhabitants, blow up schools and kill scores of children, chop heads off of school girls, hang gays and stone women that were raped. the list goes on.

    The fact that war was declared on our country 3 years before 9-11 and the call has gone out to slaughter every man, woman and child in this country and the flag of Islam will fly over the White House is completely ignored by you. The whitewashing of what has been declared on this country and those that do not follow the religion and indeed the entire nation of Israel only shows just how blinded by Political Correctness you are.

    While it is true that some “moderate” Muslims have sent out a Fatwa denouncing the killing of “innocent” people, the Koran itself tells that no one who does not believe in the Koran and is not Islamic can ever be “Innocent” makes said fatwa a joke, and something that could only placate ignorant people such as yourself.

    Again, i want you to factually refute ANYTHING I have placed in my post above (which is #78, not 77, by the way). until such time, your claims against it is nothing short of a lie and libelous, as well as ignorant and dangerous.

81. #281
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 pm, RetFireman said:

    And by the way, there have been 8 more terror attacks committed since my last post, bringing the number up to 9828. THe week of Oct 13-19 there were 45 Jihadi attacks, 348 killed and 1021 injured. I am sure those people would love to hear your assertations.

82. #282
    On October 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 pm, olblueyes said:

    don’t know if it was mentioned already ( didn’t have time to browse all 281 comments ) but looks like Youtube has taken down the “oppression of women is islam” video.

    Anybody know where else it might be posted at on the net?

    I guess we’re lucky it stayed up that long…

83. #283
    On October 24th, 2007 at 8:59 am, watershed said:

    #280

    Sorry, haven’t checked back here. Didn’t see your post.

    We have different opinions about Islam. Like many other posters here, however, you think your opinion is fact, and tell me to “refute” it. I can’t refute your opinion, and can only give mine in return. If you think the last paragraph of your screed post 78 is anything but your own opinion formed mainly by fear of admittedly legitimate threats from Islamic fundamentalists, but blown up to encompass the entire religion of Islam, I can’t do anything to convince you otherwise. I can say that out of a BILLION Muslims, surely you could see that not all of them translate their Koran the way you say they do, and that the MSA’s of this country are afraid of a whitewash of their religion like yours and Horowitz’s.

84. #284
    On October 26th, 2007 at 12:37 am, USpace said:

    Great post on this. It’s amazing how the Leftists, the so-called ‘cairing’ liberals support these criminals thugs.
    .
    Support GLBT Rights! Fight those that stone gays to death! Democracy NOT Theocracy!

    STOP KUFFARPHOBIA Demonstration in London, Friday 10/26/07!

    I think we all must start calling the Islamofascists ‘racists’. We should scream that they are hateful towards the Christian race, and the Jewish race, and the Hindu race, and the Atheist Race, that they are Christianityphobiasts. They will scream that Christianity is not a race, and we’ll say:

    “See, Islam is NOT a race either.
    And by the way, the Bible doesn’t say to convert, conquer or kill non-Christians; like the Koran says to do to non-Muslims. So there YOU RACIST hater of non-Muslims! You’re a Kuffarphobic!”

    Be careful all you in London Friday 10/26!

    absurd thought -
    God of the Universe says
    don’t call a spade a spade

    Islamist terrorism
    not related to Islam

    absurd thought -
    God of the Universe wants
    many Taliban planets

    stonings and beheadings
    billions killed daily

    absurd thought -
    God of the Universe says
    be very afraid…

    of saying the wrong things
    TRUTH is especially BAD

    http://absurdthoughtsaboutgod.blogspot.com

    
    .