Wildfires and environmental obstructionism
Update 5:20pm Eastern. The Blame Bush brigade blows its hot air.
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Photo via The Gulbransens
Nearly 300,000 Southern California residents have now been evacuated as wildfires spread across the region:
Thousands more residents were ordered to evacuate their homes Tuesday, bringing the number of people chased away by the wind-whipped flames that have engulfed Southern California to at least 270,000.
The dozen wildfires have burned more than 700 homes and set 245,957 acres — 384 square miles — ablaze, and the destruction may only be the start for the region. Tuesday’s forecast called for hotter temperatures and more explosive Santa Ana gusts.
The blazes bedeviled firefighters as walls of flame whipped from mountain passes to the edges of the state’s celebrated coastline, spreading so quickly that even hotels serving as temporary shelters for evacuees had to be evacuated.
Wanda Tomkinson, 79, fled the Doubletree hotel in Del Mar with her husband and their Boston Terrier after employees called each room to tell customers they had to leave. The couple, carrying medication, clothes, tax records and a dog bowl, said they were relying on a family friend to take them in.
If not, Tomkinson added, “the Lord’ll take care of us.”
As the fires spread, most out of control, smaller blazes were merging into larger, more fearsome ones. Evacuations were being announced in one community after another as firefighters found themselves overwhelmed by gale-force Santa Ana winds, some gusting to 70 mph.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is calling up the National Guard and asking for military support. President Bush has declared a state of emergency.
We’ve been here before and we’ve been warned that these disasters will continue. Just last month, experts were calling on Congress to expedite forest thinning and other forest managment alternatives:
Wildfires thrive in hot, dry weather. But the conditions also contribute to the die-off of trees, which must compete for water in forests that have become unnaturally dense because of a century of misguided fire suppression. Once dead and brittle, the trees become more fuel for catastrophic fires.
The panelists testified that more resources are needed to keep up with necessary tree thinning and removal campaigns. One witness, University of Arizona Professor Thomas Swetnam, said even that won’t be enough to reverse the trend.
“I don’t think we can thin our way out of this,” Swetnam said.
He said more prominent use of intentionally set fires to mimic naturally occurring blazes has certain risks, but is less costly than mechanical thinning with hand crews and chainsaws.
Environmentalists blame global warming for the problem, but guess who’s standing in the way of a solution?
The GAO examined 762 U.S. Forest Service (USFS) proposals to thin forests and prevent fires during the past two years. According to the study, slightly more than half the proposals were not subject to third-party appeal. Of those proposals subject to appeal, third parties challenged 59 percent.
Appeals were filed most often by anti-logging groups, including the Sierra Club, Alliance for Wild Rockies, and Forest Conservation Council. According to the GAO, 84 interest groups filed more than 400 appeals of Forest Service proposals. The appeals delayed efforts to treat 900,000 acres of forests and cost the federal government millions of dollars to address.
Forest Service officials estimate they spend nearly half their time, and $250 million each year, preparing for the appeals and procedural challenges launched by activists.
“The report demonstrates that the appeals needlessly delay federal efforts to prevent wildfires, and if the process is not streamlined, millions of acres will be lost this summer,” said Senate Energy Committee Chairman Pete Domenici (R-New Mexico).
“The American people will no longer tolerate management by wildfire,” Domenici added.
“This finding is nothing short of appalling, especially when you think of the catastrophic losses suffered in last year’s [2002] horrific fire season alone,” said House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo (R-California).
“These were not only losses of forest, endangered species, and wildlife habitat, they were losses of human life and family property,” Pombo said.
Same old, same old. Lawsuits have tied up the president’s Healthy Forests Initiative passed in 2003.
Prediction: Look to the Bush-bashing Left and the nutroots Democrats to mimic the Kossacks and blame the wildfires on the Iraq war–even as the environuts continue to litigate while the West burns.
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More:
N.Z. Bear has set up a helpful page of wildfire web and blog resources.
Mark Jackson blogs the view from Oceanside.
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Categories: Enviro-nitwits
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#87
‘zactly
It’s as if your neighbor has a pitbull that they don’t train properly and it manages to chew through your fence, cat, door and couch. You finally get the dog sedated, you go over to talk to your neighbor about it and they say “hey, let’s not start pointing fingers here, it’s nobody’s fault.”
Of course it’s somebody’s fault. The problem is that the libs are doing something that “feels right” and not taking responsibility for the consequences.
…and since we know what the problem is, not managing the the dead brush, and we know who gotten in the way of solving this problem, I’d say the it’s time to put the light on the issue enviroaches scatter.
The way polciy works now a days is that there is a limited time to change the status quo after a triggering incident brings a policy problem to the forefront. The global warming crowd is already doing this, rather than make their beds with the problem they’ve created.
If we want to prevent future superfires than you to change the policy when events allow for the policy to be changed. It might leave a bad taste in your mouth that you’re forced to play the blame game when people’s lives are being ruined, but that’s the world we live in now.
Excuse me, but I think ( I know for a fact for myself) the people from the area are crying foul, it is in regards to those saying that if you live in California it is solely your responsibility to ensure things like this do not happen to you.
That is just plain wrong. As an individual homeowner there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent your house from burning to the ground in an event such as this. Once the Santa Ana winds whip these fires up they burn everything in their path. Fire aircraft cannot fly in Santa Ana winds, and there aren’t enough fire trucks and firemen in the entire United States to deal with fires that are moving at 50 and 60 MPH consuming 1000 acres every 15 minutes.
Mechelle is 100 percent accurate when she says that these fires are mostly the result of Enviro-wacko policies forced upon SoCal by leftist brain dead tards.
#91, not that against donating money to this. But do you think insulting the posters here and then asking for cash is a good fundraising strategy?
#91
Done. Glad to donate.
And I happen to be a gay/illegal immigrant mexican/democrat who is a lifetime member of the Sierra Club. Oh, the irony!
Excuse me, Scooter56. Your salutation here is uncalled for and presumptuous to a fault. Get control of yourself.
I hope you don’t intend on being taken seriously with your hyper-paternalistic attempt at a rendition of adult supervision.
My money is going where it will do the most good. And that has nothing to do with the Red Cross.
Thank you.
#3:
Such things exist. They use the material that is inside diapers. However, on a cost level and such, not practical. As for our shelters, they are a last resort, and are in no way a guarantee that we will survive getting caught in a flashover. They are incredibly hot inside as the fire goes over, and most suffer extensive burns.
Also, the job of a fire department/engine crew on structure protection during one of these fires is not to save every house out there. The simple fact is, people need to protect their own homes. They need to clear all trees and brush away from their houses to 50 feet. They need to get rid of their shake roofs. They need to clear pine needles out of their gutters and off their roofs etc. When engines are patroling the areas, if they come up on a house that has not taken the time to do such things, has brush and trees up to the house, etc., they will move on. that house will be impossible to save. They will, instead, move on to a house with a defensable space, and protect it as best they can. However, even that is no guarantee as was witnessed last year when several brothers were killed from Monterey when the fire rolled over them and the house they were protecting, killing them in their shelters inside the engine.
It is very easy for people to think that firemen can do it all and save things. We do not put out wild/forest fires. We basically stop and contain them. there are no hydrants out there in the wild.
One question for the folks who need to believe that this is just one of those random, “who could’ve known” disasters where no one really needs to think critically about what are some of the likely vulnerabilities which are in play right now after DECADES of neglect.
When has a fire of this magnitude happened in the last 30 years?
Right. ZERO. NEVER.
The massive fire up here in the Berkeley/Oakland Diablo Valley Hills back in the 90s was an accident waiting to happen.
Poor road access, excessive overgrowth poorly managed over time due to lack of funds and environmental pressure, lack of citizen training on how to reduce massive inferno trending around homes, fire danger warning communications in high wind/high dry weather….
you name we didn’t have it until we got our butts kicked.
I hope every person who needs to be saved will be saved. But that doesn’t preclude people who want to analyze and bring issues to the forefront, to be given a venue for doing so.
If you don’t like how people are saying it, debtate them on how they are doing it. Stop the kneecapping. It’s BORING!
Just got off the phone with a good friend of mine who lives on the Irvine/Laguna border. This is a major catastrophe.
They have had about 3 inches of rain since the spring, and everything was bone dry. The heat has not helped with 95 degree days. The Santa Ana winds are wicked this year. One gust within the past two days was clocked at 112 in Laguna.
The authroties keep revising the wind forecast. This AM, they expected the winds to die down this afternoon. They have now extended that estimate to Thursday, perhaps later.
Everyone has either moved from their homes with minimal possessions or is sitting there waiting for the word to evacuate. They are trying to be orderly about, but the sheer number of people slows things down.
There is still ample fuel to keep the fires going. And with the high hot wind, those fires will keep going.
He’s seen some bad fires out there before, but the scale and speed of this one is unique.
They know at least one of the fires was intentionally set, and suspect at this early stage that others may have been as well.
They seem to be well informed, and there is not really a sense of any panic. I think it is a sense of fear of the unknown. Hard to imagine sitting there with a bag packed ready to leave your home expecting nothing to be there when you return.
And no one is openly discussing it now, but the rainy season is coming, and the more the fires destroy the more potential for devastating mudslides.
We certainly cannot do much from where we are to help fight the fires, but we sure as heck can offer some prayers for those people out there. No matter what their politics, no matter what their religion. Those are our fellow citizens there sitting at hell’s gate.
It is so sad that so many of you have to politicize absolutely EVERYTHING. Oh, and California-bashing is just too easy for out-of-state pseudonymous posters.
As has been pointed out … and ignored … San Diego is a highly conservative area, with many Republican politicians. Now, if you wish to include them in the “blame game” then that must be done.
This is a time for immediate remedies and human concerns. One civilian has died and 3 firefighters are in critical condition and need your prayers.
I don’t know why people need to be told that political analysis is for later. It is sad to see that is the only response that some have.
While i reluctantl agree with LGM and that there are risks to living in the areas that are prone to forest/wild fires, he/she misses the point entirely. Just because an area is prone to it, does not mean that everything should be done to help prevent them. That is the equivalent of saying, “Hey, you drive a car, you should know you could die in a wreck, so don’t wear seat belts or enforce seat belts.” It is ignorant and reckless.
The forests and wildlands DESPERATELY NEED to be thinned. The dead trees and undergrowth needs to be cleared out, whether by allowing lumber companies to harvest or controlled burns or what have you. Several years ago, as Southern California burned, all the Dems in this state were all over the television and radio, claiming they would do everything they could to make sure this would never happen again. Two years ago, as my father-in-law was waiting for his evacuation order in San Diego to come, they were saying the same things, and how they were going to make sure that everything got thinned out so that this wouldn’t happen again. Now here we are, once again, historically in October, watching as the Santana winds whip these fires around with a frenzy, doing what should have been done by man…clearing and thinning out the trees and underbrush.
The simple fact is, the areas will get thinned out one way or another. It is up to these politicians and evironazis to decide whether it will be done safely by man, or by killing people and firemen and destroying people’s homes and businesses by nature.
Either way, nature will always trump rhettoric and “good intentions”
You all might want to take time off from worrying abut wild fires and call your Senators regarding the amnesty bill being voted on tomorrow.
And the thing is Bear, the Oakland Hills learned nothing from those fires. Everything is exactly the way it was now as back then. The politicians were all talk. Take a look around the area and see if I am wrong.
Chopping down trees isn’t necessarily going to stop a fast moving fire…..propelled by 80 mph winds. No matter how many trees you chop down, no matter how many hillsides are graded….the topography remains. You can’t turn a Forest into a City. It doesn’t work. They don’t call it the Wilderness for nothin’. Much of Southern CA. has that type of rugged topography, with, or without trees. Meanwhile, somebody tell me how the National Guard is going to stop the 80 mph winds ??? That’s gonna be interesting.
Because the bulk of attention will be given to the issue now. If you want to inform them about something, you do it while the event is fresh in their minds, not when their looking at the next tragedy.
Don’t all new constructions have to be build according to certain government codes to impede the spread of fire? Even the types of cables that can be run through a subfloor or plenum is regulated.
There are laws about how close houses can be to each other and how close they have to be to a hydrant.
Why do we have such laws for buildings and not the forests that surround them?
#104 – Bear, he has a point. they went and built those houses just as they were prior to…. and the ones that didn’t get damaged still have wood shake roofs.
But, still, lots of love for the bear.
Flenser,
Just because were commenting here doesnt mean we havnt called our Senators until were blue in the face!! get over youself and quit complaining about this thread. Geez want some wine with that cheese? I have friends and people have famoily in these areas. All of us here have called over and over and over regarding AMNESTY!!!
FAMILY…ARGH.
The fast moving fire isn’t feeding on trees….so much…it’s feeding on homes. Homes that were poorly planned, without any buffer, or fire, zones. Greedy politicians rubber stamp these new-home developments without a thought to the ground soil, topography, climate, or other conditions. Most new-home developments in the 1950s-1960s had at least 10-acre set-backs and fire zones, that would allow a Fire Department to come in and build a fire wall, protecting subdivisions. But the people keep coming, and every available inch of space must be utilized, such that now all that separates a housing development from the big bad forest is a chain link fence!
QUESTION: Why are new residents being shoe-horned into Forest-area housing anyway? The wildlife and the coyotes, possums are coming down from the Mountains….even they don’t want to be there….you have to wonder why human beings, then, are so eager to inhabit it!
Environmentalism has taken on the mantel of a religion, and it is obvious that it has a dark side to it in much the same manner as Islam. To ignore the impact of environmentalists on this disaster is to support the very thing that has caused it. When environmentalism is put in its proper place, then common sense will reign. At this point, the death of common sense is called political correctness – and environmentalism has become so politically correct that the suppression of debate rather than the creation of real solutions is its foremost result.
Bear1909, you have simply got it wrong. Northern CA is a different story. We have the classic recipe for fire here every year, DUE LARGELY TO NATURE, in SOUTHERN California.
What an idiotic thing to say, and to believe.
No one “supports” fires…
29 Victor:
Sorry, but that is just a silly comment. The houses in the wildlands and forests of California here are not new construction. There are big houses, little houses, shacks, trailers etc. It is rural at it’s very definition. Houses have propane tanks and wells. You are thinking of Suburban areas and urban areas. Just because in those areas houses have to be within a couple of hundred feet of a hydrant does not mean that the government will go throughout the entire vast wilderness and place hydrants all over the place. that is not feasable or even realistic. I am kinda beside myself with that entire comment.
Victor: Government Codes are flexible if the applicant has a big campaign donation! In the State of California, you cannot be a local politician without being sponsored by at least 3 or more construction developers. I don’t know what’s going to happen now that the housing market has died. Maybe big developers relish all these destroyed homes, because they can build anew. And, build they will. Wildfires, earthquakes, floods…..it’s not stopped the building in over 40 years.
Go on the Sunset Strip and look at some of the houses in the Hollywood hills sitting on stilts! And, some of those are recently approved. Politicians can be bribed into approving any kind of substandard development, whether or not it’s left to the taxpayers to mop up the damage!
TaylorK, you do not help when you continue seeking argument with people who are LIVING THIS TRAGEDY now, as we speak.
…aw shucks
Guys- listen to me, lol, never said things changed. For all the progressive bullroy that is spewed around here, the inertia is incredible.
The population around here reminds me of cows starin at a new gate.
The point *was*: disasters have causes and are made worse by *factors* that support a destructive trend. For anyone to say that discussion of such causes and factors must be put off as “politicizing” a situation, I believe that is a useless assertion at the expense of using a forum like this to deal with REALITY
That was all.
Feelin the love
LaEnchiladita:
We have the same situations up here in Northern Cal as in Southers. The difference is, our fires are usually around Tahoe around 80 and 50. Those that occur in the Coastal Mountains generally do not get as bad as down south due to the Marine Layer that is here most of the year. However, they are similar. Sorry, hate to inject professional knowledge in it, but there it is.
RetFireman
I think you missed my point. I didn’t mean those specific houses built to any code. I meant houses in general across the U.S. are put together with slowing down fire in mind, to save human life and property.
But here in Cal we have a situation where millions of people are surrounded by millions of acres of forest and we don’t properly take care to the forest to keep mitigate fire damage. I wasn’t suggesting fire hydrants in the forest
. But we could thin things out a bit, do controlled burns once and a while and basically make things safer.
It is entirely possible I missed the point. I have been guilty of that in the past.
And I am in Northern Calif.
The topography of Northern California is completely different. San Carlos, Atherton, and much of Marin County are relatively flat, non-canyon areas, with stable ground soil. Northern California doesn’t have the kinds of chapparal that are indigenous to Southern CA’s arid-like climate. It’s much more of a marine-like climate, and they get a little bit more rain. I don’t think they get the wild devil winds up North either. Housing prices up North have kept population increases in check. In Southern CA….you’ve had relatively cheap land in these far-flung, remote Wilderness areas, and the homes have been are relatively affordable. The fact that they pack in people like sardines…..well, nobody seems to care until the fires and the floods start up.
Rooms are filling with evacuees and the scumbags are tripling the cost on rooms, how nice.
Arrowhead Fires
Incident reports
click on incident reports for scanner chatter.
To Ret Fireman, #98,
I remember the incident you speak of where 5 firefighters died, one who lingered for awhile before succumbing. In my mind, I can even see their fire truck in which they sought shelter.
If it is any comfort to you at this point, I have been reading reports of firefighters being pulled out of areas last night and today, where the danger to them is just too great… The residents have been evacuated, and the homes just have to burn.
I know it’s a trauma for homeowners, but it is not worth the firefighter’s life and safety to try to save every home. I’m glad they’re pulling the guys out… I think this happened in the Grass Valley fire last night, for example.
Alright, I’ll write the check to the Red Cross; but I still think it’s the dumbacrates, gays, and illegal aliens that are responsible for everything.
Oh, and I just thought of something else (imagine that). When the levees burst and New Orleans flooded you didn’t hear the libs saying “people shouldn’t have live there” or “no one is to blame” you heard them saying “It’s Bush’s fault.” or “It’s the Army Corp of Engineers fault.” So, aparently it’s okay to look for someone to blame wilst still in the middle of a disaster.
Ret Fireman, you don’t have the Santa Anas, the extra-long summer and the low humidity that we have in SoCal.
Tiny Enchilada #113: I lived in Southern California for some time back in a former life.
The Santa Ana winds are a fact of life in the ranges in and around the Greater SoCal area.
But the winds are not the only factor/cause in the wildfires there.
Fires need fuel. And in this day and age of wildland management, mismanagement plays a role.
Northern California or Southern California makes no difference in kind. They differ by degree. When we get hot dry winds here on little rain, the fire risk goes sky high. Does the wind ignite fire like the Devil Winds do down there? No. There is no high desert spark in the air up here like down there. Nor do we have gusts of 100 miles an hour here. But wind and dryness is a factor. So you cannot say the two areas are different in kind.
All fires need air and fuel. Down there you get a certain kind. Up here you get a certain kind. The danger might be more severe down there. But it isn’t all because of the winds.
Where environmentalists should be illustrating how humans play a role in creating huge fuel inventories in wildland management practices (which give the fires steam and momentum when they reach urban pockets in its path), they don’t. But when it is about the planet, hey now, let’s make this as anthropogenic as possible.
Horsecrap. Accountability is all I am asking for. And the people who are being burned out- well, they will hopefully do the same.
Have a nice day.
Apparently there is a lot you don’t understand about wildfires. Wildfires create their own wind, they do this in response to the amount of fuel and the temperature they reach because of that fuel.
As an example, the Santa Ana winds in and of themselves here in Ramona were blowing at between 20 and 25 MPH, however as they reached certain areas where the underbrush had not been cleared for 10 or more years the temperature spiked upwards of 1500 degrees and pushed the wind speed in those canyons to the 90 to 95 MPH range.
The Witch fire came down through Ramona burning the areas that the 2003 Cedars fire had by-passed. RetFireman really hit the nail on the head.
#121 RetFireman
Looking back at my comment I could have been clearer.
A note to everyone: I THOUGHT conservatives believe in “personal responsibility.” Why all the belly-aching about “government negligence” then?
It wouldnt surprise me if the Dems blamed this on a pissed off arsonist Polar Bear.
#130 doriangrey
You seem to know a bit about all this. You quoted:
(sorry didn’t look for the original comment)
I’ve heard it said that these huge fires that we have now in Cal burn so hot (because of all of the fuel that shouldn’t be there) that they burn the dirt so badly that instead of the fire being a healthy, renewing thing it is actually prevents new growth.
Here is where I come out on this trollish “If God is all powerful, can he make a rock he cannot pick up?” kind of question.
Local, state, and federal government should be there in the event of a disaster of any kind.
However, the individual property owner bears the responsibility of doing for him/herself all that is possible to avert disaster- such as a fire retardant roof, responsible land management, and preparedness for emergency evacs.
After that, cross your fingers.
So what is your beef, Tiny Enchilada?
You sound, como se dice, “angry”.
#131 Because when the government claims millions and millions of square miles of forest as their own it’s their responsibility to take care of it.
Per KNBC tv in L.A., we are seeing a shift in wind direction. The abatement in wind means the fires can be attacked from the air now. We are also being helped by reinforcements from other states sending their firefighters.
Not that anyone here much cares, but just thought I’d post the lastest report.
omg.
To ignore the impact of environmentalists on this disaster is to support the very thing that has caused it.
———————–
Modern environmentalists have consistently blocked individual efforts to do common sense human things. They have used the executive, legislative and judicial powers of government to thwart individual action around the nation – from ANWR to California to Georgia and more. While early environmentalists did a lot of good in cleaning up some real disasters, they now are obstructionists when its comes to preventing real disasters.
#135 bear1909
Good pun.
Is that really what his name means? Wow. That could have used some more forethought.
Get Real.
doriangray: Trees have been chopped down over and over again. What do you think happens every time another housing subdivision is developed in the Forest? Trees are chopped down to make way….and it doesn’t stop the wildfires at all. These homes have tile roofs. Their as “fireproofed” (is there such a thing?) as they can be….yet they still burn, and structures are leveled. Clearly, Forests and Wilderness areas were not meant for human habitation to begin with.
Bear, you re an idiot, or if you prefer Spanish….Usted es cabron.
Government is performing magnificently in this disaster. But that doesn’t stop some types from bitching, of course.
Interesting that you and Victor become defensive when shown that your reactions are the mirror image of the leftists who placed blame re Katrina.
That’s great. I did forget to mention the islamo-facist didn’t I.
Anyway,Just don’t write that in the comment space on your check. They’d be confused. Thanks again.
By the way, caring doesn’t get a problem solved. Action does. The situation in California was well known but action did not take place in an orderly fashion. Now nature, with its chaotic approach to life and death, rules.
#137 LaEnchiladita
Of course we all care Eeyore. Everyone here is praying (if they pray) and, I’m sure, doing what they can. And if (God forbid) your house is destroyed we’ll even pay Pooh Bear to fix it.
10,000 evacuees now housed at Qualcomm Stadium in San Diego.
Total evacuees reportedly over half a million.
2 civilians dead.
President Bush will be in SoCal on Thursday.
Really, publius, it is a requirement for posting on this blog to be uncaring? Very interesting…
#142 Glamchild said
Of couse not, neither were the banks of the Mississippi or Missouri, earthquake prone areas, “tornado alley,” anywhere near the Gulf of Mexico, the upper Mid-West, “hurricane alley,” in the shadow of a volcano (guilty) or Navada.
By the way, gale force winds have nothing to do with trees. I don’t remember who, above, said that.
If winds were dependent upon trees, why do you have all kinds of sand, and windstorms in the barren desert? Winds come from atmospheric pressure and heavy winds can happen anywhere from the urban areas of Chicago to the barren Mojave Desert. No trees needed. The problem is when you mix severe drought (normal cycle) with rugged topography, and then throw in some “fireproof” housing structures which should never have been built in those locations…..and we have the situation that’s going on right now.
OK….how many seconds till you all come and refute every word I’m saying……
Yes, doriangray, when nature does what nature does, blame the government or at least the part of government you don’t like.
#150 Glamchild
You make me giggle.
#151
Ahh… but nature isn’t allowed to do what it does. Nature would normally thin out the forest with several smaller fires over a number of years. But we don’t let it and we also don’t take care of the “unnatural” forest that results.
And this is what we get.
29Victor: Oh, well listen….I could go out and get struck by lightening tomorrow. Maybe I’ll get knocked down by an asteroid. It’s a question of frequency. I don’t know how frequent earthquakes and volcanos. I do know fire season happens every year. And the normal cycles of drought followed by floods are a regular occurrence. No guarantees anywhere, but why not reduce your risks? You know, nobody was afraid to ask the question why were Katrina victims living below sea level, to begin with? But apparently, you aren’t supposed to question the wisdom of placing suburban tract homes in a Forest.
These wildfires seem to occur every year in southern California, but what surprises me is the fact that they want MILITARY HELP! I thought they hated the military…hmmm?
Please put the crack pipe down. Seriously. There is no such thing as fireproofing against a 1500 degree firestorm. We cannot completely prevent the fires, but make no mistake about it, it is because of regulations imposed by the environazis that these fires are reaching 1500+ degree’s.
Normally fires of the kind that nature would normally produce only burn at 700 to 800 hundred degrees. They don’t create their own wind conditions. A 1500+ degree fire will set concrete on fire.
Yes and no. They cause the new growth to come back much more slowly, but don’t actually prevent the new growth. What normally would have grown back the next year takes 2 or 3 years to grow back.
I heard the Governator mention global warming in a TV interview, but he never mentioned anti-military recruiting sentiment and laws in Calif. as a problem. Not enough National Guard??
Open your damn state to military recruiting, idiots!!
How soon will we have the calculation from Al Gore about the number of carbon credits California has to buy from him to make up for the fires?
In a related thought, maybe now is the time for Florida to lobby California to support in Congress a national disaster insurance bill that covers flood, hurricanes, tornadoes and fires.
Only when they don’t need them to put their necks on the line for those ungrateful SOBs.
The angora fire in Tahoe had people seriously scrutinizing the TRPA and with good reason when homeowners ran the risk of being fined for removing dangerous trees and pine needles from their property. (one family had to break the law to save their home) You would think, after all the heated discussions, that the TRPA would get the message.
Nope. The power company was informed that to remove dead trees along their lines on the mountain above the lake that fell to the beetle infestation, they would have to purchase the trees before being allowed to remove them.
Never mind the fact that they could bring down a line and spark yet another catastrophic fire (as the ignorance continues).
And during that fire I did hear people blame the homeowners for living there. “No sympathy”, they said, “for living in an area which should have been left to the bears”.
When it doesn’t affect them, they certainly know how to judge others choices. How about blaming people for living on earthquake faults? Or hurricane areas? Or flood zones? It makes as much sense as blaming the victims of Hurrican Katrina for living below sea level and on the ocean.
I’m beginning to prefer the bears.
That does it, I’m moving into an urban area just like the Good Lord intended.
I can hardly believe some of the posts here.
#142 said:
Tell that to the Native American Indians.
PS – Florida isn’t much better being Hurricane bait. And we also have wildfire problems here too.
No, the real problem is that our enivironmentalists (not to be confused with conservationalists – whom I like) have hamstrung every effort to lessen the impact of wildfires by passing legislation and loobying at the local, state and federal levels to prevent the removal of fallen timber and the clearing out of dead grasses and brush.
Newsflash #142 – fires happen where people don’t live too – like the closed of portions of Yellowstone.
#154 Glamchild
Yeah, they probably didn’t make the wizest of decisions moving there. But is it only “suburban tract homes in a Forest” that are being threatened here?
And I don’t know if frequency is the issue as much a amount of devistation. I mean, there are places in America where your basement is pretty much going to flood every year and it’s not big deal. But in places that are earthquake or volcano or tornado prone that “one time” can take out an entire town or county or state (see Superman the Movie).
When the “big one” hits Cali or Mt. Rainer blows and a howevermany million ton glacier melts and turns the Puyallup river into a 30 foot wall of boiling mud or any town in “tornado alley” gets wiped off of the map, many more people are likely to die and much more property is likely to be destroyed than in fires like these. Also I’m pretty sure that the yearly blizzards in the upper Mid-West take more lives than these fires usually do.
And, one way or another, it’s still the government’s job to take care of the land that they own.
#160 Kendra
wow…just…wow
and
heh.
500,000 people in one county told to evacuate.
But where do they go?
Katrina, Anyone?
Let’s see here, Tiny One. You choose the Leftist tact of saying that any reasoned argument about causality or trends is placing blame
or getting “defensive”.
But in fact, all I did was refute you lame argument that somehow the situation in NOrthern California cannot be related to the situation in Southern California, what was in effect a lame argument.
And I am not guilty of saying one disparaging thing about the government response to this crisis. (Are you really Geraldo? Are you spitting yet?)
So your typically Leftist rejoinder is a non-sequitur ad hominem attack on me as being some Lefty because I want to also speak about causes and effects of misguided policies of the US government and lobbyist special interest groups (Sierra Club et al).
The Lefties after Katrina weren’t criticizing the government response as much as they were ALLEGING that Bush blew up the levees so he could steal the land.
Am I doing anything even slightly resemblant to that? Can you spell N-o-N S-E-Q-U-I-T-U-R?
And must you resort to namecalling, Tiny Enchilada?
It is unbecoming to your argument and makes your “compassion” look paper thin.
I think there is enough room on this blog for differing opinions and focus on the issue at hand.
That isn’t some moralistic judgement about anybody- even you. It is something I think we can respect.
Register your disagreement. Expect to be disagreed with and reasoned against logically.
If you cannot handle that, La Enchiladita, no number of additional birthdays can help you.
The upside of any disaster for our mass societyis we, as private citizens, are being shown AGAIN how we must be ready to fend for our own safety in many basic respects.
This mass evacuation is almost an identical challenge as post Katrina: where do people go for extended periods of time when the “levee breaks”.
Think dirty bomb. Chemical attack.
I hope people not in the fire zone around this Nation are doing some serious planning. It doesn’t take much to get knocked out of the box and it certainly doesnt take long.
Kiss my ass you f%^king retard, I am done trying to get through that solid lead skull of yours.
Currently just over 1/3 of San Diego County is under mandatory evacuation.
Anyone who would say that people shouldn’t live in the hills, woodlands or elsewhere there is fire danger during specific seasons, has a screw loose.
A fire broke out in urban LA over the summer- Griffith Park burned. Right in the heart of LA. Were people not supposed to be living there in the wooded hillsides of Griffith Park and Echo Park (near Dodger Stadium).
If they moved there clueless, then they deserve every bit of suffering that rains down upon them.
People have been living in woodlands and forested hills for centuries.
Devil winds or no devil winds…..prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Anyone sticking around waiting to see if it rains or the winds die down hasn’t had a lick of fire suppression/safety training.
Ya don’t play with fire. Evac and hope to be pleasantly surprised. Wait one second too long- yer dead.
End of story.
This fury of nature has equalized everybody in its path. Those who are feeling shamed by it will die. Those who retain their rational powers will survive.
Doriagrey- Clean it up or take your meds or go to Daily Kos. We dont do that hear. Sheesh.
My apologies bear1909, but I am right smack dab in the middle of this wildfire, I haven’t slept much in the last 2 days and I find Glamchild’s comments extremely offensive.
Although this may seem similar to folks outside of Ca. to Katrina but in essence sorry, not even close. Those in the Katrina had days notification that a Cat 5 Hurr. was going to destroy everthing in its path. Then it did, during and followed by lame execution on Louisianas Hierarchy for disaster preparedness. Right now the efforts and evacuation orders by all involved is being handled like a well oiled machine compared to that cluster___k in New Orleans.
dorian where are you?
Because you are in the middle of this, what good is this to be blogging with people you cannot reach with your statements.
I am sorry for the dangers you are facing.
OT-
Hey bear what up my northern brother?
aj- my Halofied Bruh….organizing food shipments to send down south….and a lil o this and a lil o that…another day in this fine Nation of Ours.
Ramona California, six miles from where the witch fire started.
It helps me keep my mind off the fact that I am trapped here with no way out. My car blew a head gasket when I tried to leave yesterday. I am keeping in pretty constant contact with firefighters, I am about 2 miles away from the Ramona airport in the middle of town. The firefighters have actually told me I am in one of the safest areas in the county right now. That could of course change, but right now there are no fires burning within about 5 miles of me. The talking heads on T.V are suggesting that they might start allowing Ramona residents to return to Ramona in a few more hours.
Believe it or not, I am praying for everyone, every structure, all animals, pets, all people, including myself….who are feeling the effects of this, and those who are right in the middle of it.
My prayers are with everybody.
Good Luck Doriangrey
Arrowhead Fire Update hit refresh
bear if its da mush, I’m good…
Arrowhead is my hometown and I’m luckier than most just property not a home. The command center has moved to my old High School.
hometown meaning 30 years there, currently in Palm Springs.
geez, reporting 1250 homes lost in San Diego County alone. Arrowhead about 250 so far estimated.
Bear – with you, red cross doesn;t get a dime from me. too much overhead and corruption. Salvation Army is a good outfit.
LaEnchiladita – I think the boys are ribbing at you, often times as boys will do when they get fiesty reactions from females.
I really am sorry for everything you are going through down there. I hope you, your family and friends (and pets) are all safe and unharmed.
bear, aj and the lot are good eggs.
Guys, when she joined she said she was a fan of Orianna Fallaci…really, that’s pretty cool!
Hello all! I have to comment on this one! I’ve been away for a stint (no not jail)
I come back….and I see we have some new posers…er uh I mean posters. First let me say to Little Enchilada: Yes we care & I am watching the news all day about this (as I’m sure alot of real posters are) sooooo…..we don’t need your “little updates” on the sitcheation okay? And here is one for Waterbed….oops I mean shed….you are a troll plain and simple. I have read the past few days of MM’s excellent blogs and seen your posts. Just waiting to pounce aren’tcha. You do more trolling then good ol MikeB used to do! Hey AJ & Bear1909….you guys remember MikeB right? Anyway, let me open a new can by saying I think the REAL story here is in the way the folks at Qualcomm are handling the situation as apposed to the folks in the superdome after Katrina. Quite the polar opposite I’d say.
The “boys” are just acting a fool, no surprise there, doesn’t bother me.
Because I KNOW I’m right.
Speak for yourself, Surveyor, and kiss my nalgas while you’re at it.
You’re just “watching the news,” not living it.
Feebie, tahnks for the kind words.
The only thing that hit my nerve was the “not that anyone cares” crack”
Hey, i am not here taking sides….I just blew a huge gasket on the Beriut posting…I am sure I pissed off pretty much everyone over there…so I am over here playing nice….
See, fiesty women…takes one to know one…
Hey surveyor, welcome back.