The beating on the Baltimore bus: What if the races had been reversed?
Victim Sarah Kreager Photo via The Examiner.
If the races had been reversed in this monstrous crime, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would already have booked their private planes on the first flight out to Baltimore. Via The Examiner:
As Sarah Kreager, 26, tried to sit down on a Baltimore City bus Tuesday, police say, a middle-schooler told her she couldn’t. When she attempted to take another seat, a middle-schooler wouldn’t let her. Finally, according to police, Kreager just sat down.
She was “immediately attacked” by nine students — three females and six males — from Robert Poole Middle School. They punched and kicked her at 2:59 p.m. at the intersection of 33rd Street and Chestnut Avenue, according to Maryland Transit Administration police.
Kreager was dragged off the bus and her boyfriend, Troy Ennis, attempted to get her back on, police said.
She sustained “serious injuries” and had to be transported to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to a police report.
Examiner.com Related Articles:Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket, police said.
“She had eye muscles that were damaged,” a police report states. “She had deep lacerations on the top of her head and another above her neck.”
Two seats and the bus’ rear glass were destroyed during the attack, police said.
The bus driver on the No. 27 line quickly called police, who responded and arrested the nine juveniles, said Jawauna Greene, an MTA police spokeswoman.
All nine suspects, ages 14 and 15, were arrested and charged with aggravated assault…
…The suspects in the incident are black. The victim is white, according to the police report.
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#389 Miss Ladybug,
Would be much easier if we were a color blind society and not accentuating color. When I worked for the state of Pa. they always stress stuff like race and gender on questionnaires. I usually would fill in “Human” for race and “Occasional” for sex.
Martin Luther King said we should look at content of character rather than color of skin, but of course there’s no money in that for the Jesse Jacksons of the world.
I suppose I have to question what color has to do with anything. I know there may be a range of differences, but why dumb things down to cater to some groups? Doesn’t bother me at all that as a whole Asians are more intelligent than whites. I do wonder why it is ok to stress blackness in some areas such as Miss Black America, Black is beautiful, black pride, etc. Imagine the uproar if you remove the black and substitute white. And I wonder why some people make up strange names to accentuate their differentness. One thing I recall in Freakonomics book were some of the idiotic names parents stuck their kids with, such as naming a girl “shithead” even though pronouncing it “Sha-TEED”. Imagine applying for a job in one’s adulthood?
29V
Must be freaking amazing to be you.
I imagine you sport one of those famous T-shirts my father used to wear..
“Those of you who think you know everything seriously annoy those of us that do.”
Exactly. Problem is, the “stats” are then skewed even further against whites. As I stated in my earlier addition to what xler8bmw and pierre were discussing….you know, way back up there in the 200’s or something. Man have I been reading all of these? I gotta get some sleep!
On December 7th, 2007 at 12:36 am, 3Steps said:
Way to debate. Way to prove a point!
Boy, I’m slinking off with my tail between my legs. You, sir, are an intellectual marvel! Your father must be so proud.
The rapier whit. The astounding use of word to put together sentence thingys. The ability to turn on a computer. Again, kudos to you! And kudos to your proud papa.
One, I was very polite to you….
Two, when one makes a generalized statement, the burden of proof is on that person to persuade others to follow suit-something which you’ve failed miserably at.. Feel free to look like an idiot. I was trying to help you out there, cupcake.
(No good deed goes unpunished.)
BTW, thank you for the tip, but I can google, but to be honest…I’d rather Ya-hoooo hooo!
*****
Posters who are providing us with statistical data should consider that 1) numbers can be manipulated to fit an agenda (E.g. look what the Great Goracle has been doing to prove his carbon bloviating nonsense). And 2) a well reasoned argument will use statistics as evidentiary support, and not as the back bone of the argument as a whole.
When statistics are used as your sole source of reasoning you are just setting your self up for “straw man”.
Holy smokes are you kidding? No one does that anymore…cops ASK you what race you are. Census ASKS what race you are…pleeeze.
Besides exactly who identifies the 6 more blacks who are murdered for every white man? If you believe the state does than you are a Democrat. Because only a Democrat could believe the state is that efficient to actually know.
Folks like you have been making so many excuses for behavior like that these “kids” know they can get away with it. Want to know why these “kids” commit these sorts of crimes, find a mirror in your house and stare long and hard into it. Staring back at you is the one who is partially responsible. Making excuses for bad behavior is no way to correct it.
Yea I feel so sorry for those kids I would pull the lever myself on the gas that ends their miserable underprivileged lives. It is always societies fault eh? Next thing it will be the white mans fault…
Cannot be any excuses for this behavior except that it is whitey’s fault eh?
The fact that the average intelligence levels are different for different races has absolutely nothing to do with anything right? Lets keep our heads in the sand for a bit longer.
Pierre
So…the kid’s don’t have any excuse for their behavior, but I’m to blame for it? You say it’s not “whitey’s” fault and yet you blame me (whitey)?
Do you read what you type. More importantly, did you read what I typed? I didn’t make any excuses at all for the kids doing what they did.
Remove the racist filter through which you see the world and maybe you’ll be able to read better.
So, correct me if I’m wrong. You’re saying that black people commit more crimes because they aren’t as smart as everyone else?
1) You’re making excuses for them.
2) You’re and idiot.
You say I’m part at fault for what they did. How? According to you they’re too stupid to do anything else.
feebiebabe…you still up? It’s Mr. Poop Disturber. How’s things?
I agree…somewhat. But, statistics coming from say, the FBI, which again, I have seen from several other sources (and I’ll try and find some of these past sources I’m talking about) deliberately skew the stats in favor of minorities…and I’m talking about the FBI skewing the data in relation to referencing hispanics as whites. Now why would they do such a thing? What would be the motive for this happening? You said numbers can be manipulated to fit an agenda. What agenda would the FBI have to add to the white crime statistics for instance by deliberatly labeling hispanics who commit crimes as “whites” in their statistics? Please don’t think I’m jumping on you…quite the contrary. I generally agree with most of your posts here, I’m just curious to know what you think the reasoning behind this agenda would be. You know, the end result wanted by the manipulators.
The search for information might have done you more good than being spoon fed. But whatever I am ready to help. Here is a mouth full of spoonfed.
For the ever important data on black on white crime directly from the FBI.
And if somehow we lived in a United States that did not have the crime committed by the black man we would be…one of the safest Countries in the world. But hey don’t worry as someone pointed out President Bush is trying to make sure that doesn’t happen by importing folks from one of the top murder capitals in the world, Mexico. And yes Hispanics are classified as White…
Oh, and I wish the racists here would quit hiding behind statistics and leading questions and riddles and just have the balls to say what they think.
Shall I repeat it again vic?
feebiebabe, re: Pierre’s #408
But with all Pierre’s stats, apparently it’s not black people’s fault anyway, they’re too stupid to act civilized like us (see #405).
I wonder if he thinks that Hispanics are to “wet backed” to not commit crimes. Hmmm. Well, at least they’re not Joos.
#410 Please do.
Illegal alien crime rate is 6 times national average. That is double that of black Americans. You only have to bring in half as much to balance the stats, and Bush is trying as hard as he can.
29Victor said:
I hope your not talking about me. I simply brought to light a strange little fact about the FBI stats relevant to a prior post above. You don’t know me or anything about me and calling me a racist for bringing up a simple fact is a little beneath you I think, based on your previous posts that is.
and if you were not talking about me….well then, sorry for the rant.
Oh, and Pierre, why didn’t you just link to the charts that your quotes refer to, they are much easier to understand than your quotes (hmmm, perhaps that’s why).
Wow! From that I quickly see that offending rates for blacks is sharply down over the last fifteen years. In fact, homicide victimization rates for whites is also down.
Gasp! If you look at the two graphs together you might get the impression that most violence done by blacks is directed toward other blacks, and most violence done to whites is from other whites.
Now, why didn’t you link to the charts?
#407 - Thanks for the question.
Statistics, from my experience, are not rock solid. They are a good starting point and if used in addition to other sources, can be very persuasive.
My point was only that statistics used as the main crux of the argument is one dimensional at best.
FBI can have just as much of an agenda as any other organization. NOT saying that is what happened…in fact, I would think theirs would be the more reputable data…but they are not above reproach and certainly can make mistakes (data entry errors). Statistics need qualifiers to make sense when dealing with certain samples…in this case, social class and/or race related issues, IMHO.
Hope that makes sense. I didn’t get the sense you were picking on me. No worries.
Surveyor
1) I wasn’t talking about you (my appologies if it appeared that way).
2) Nothing is beneath me.
No one here is stupid enough (I hope) to not recognize that black people commit far more than their proportional share of violent crimes in America.
It’s just those here that use this fact to tar and feather ALL black people, or talk like they are violent (or stupid)because of their skin color that I have a problem with.
I’m so sick of that. Not only is it damn ignorant, it also gives the black community more reason to hate conservatives, gives them an excuse for the violence, and gives racists one more reason to look down on or hate them (like they need one more reason).
Why haven’t the blatantly racist comments been delted?
Excuse me. I meant deleted.
Richard Romano, this is Baltimore, the city that gave the poor state of Maryland the buffoon Martin O’Malley. Leftist judge will probably be it for these punks.
Leftist multi-culturalism sucks, especially when one of those culture’s is GANSTA CULTURE. The left glorifies it all the time too. Call it what it is.
Yes folks who make excuses for that sort of behavior have some responsibility.
Not whiteys fault in your case…bleeding hearts fault. You feel their pain and they feel contempt for your pity.
It almost makes you feel sorry for the kid (almost). I mean, what chance do they have with parents like that?
Hmmm….is that the beginning of an excuse. Let me pull out my bleeding heart liberal meter…yup. Sure is.
Oh I am stricken…right to the core. Do you consider that word to be some sort of amulet that you can use to silence debate? I am getting too old for that crap to work on me.
The correlation between crime and intelligence is extremely high for all races.
No I am providing facts to deal with the problem.
Note that one should not call another an idiot whilst misspelling various simple words.
I know this is complicated for you so let me explain. You and your bleeding heart buddies are to blame for what they did because were it not for folks like you those “kids” would have been brought up very short a long time ago by the Government for other laws they have no doubt broken.
Not according to me. According to anyone who has done any studying of crime rates and intelligence. IQ is not really this mysterious thing you believe it to be. Low IQ means any one of any race is more aggressive…it just happens that blacks are on average less intelligent. Whites are less intelligent than Asians and both are less intelligent that some jewish sects and some parts of Europe.
It is the dirty little secret of genetics and psychology. They have known this for quite a while but as we can see by what happened to one of the greatest scientific minds in genetics, uttering that dirty little secret is suicidal.
Evolution is a real mother….we had a harsher road and the dumb among us did not replicate.
Although I have much to say about this,I’m 100% certain that NOBODY wants to hear (or read )it.So I’ll just say good night.
Hmmm…conspiracy theories are the haven of the weakminded. Maybe I gave you a link to the text because I hoped you were smart enough to find what you needed. Or maybe I gave you the text because I was amused by the fact that you might consider it unfair that you had to read….hmmm I wonder.
29Victor said:
No harm no foul 29!
I completely agree with the above position. The problem is the culture of today. Like I said before, it all boils down to accountability. That starts in the home. We teach our kids to be accountable right? I know I do. More and more kids today have no sense of accountability for anything and this seems (again, according to those stats you hate so much) to be more pervasive in the black race than it is for whites, asians, etc. I think accountability can be extrapolated from any number of these stats to be the root cause of the problems. If babies daddy ain’t there, that sets the stage for a lifetime of instability right out of the gate. Now, the thing is, how in the heck can we instill accountability back into society? Is that even possible? Talk is cheap. Solutions are hard and painful.
Not picking on this poster…I belive this is a portion of said statistics:
As an example (what I mean by one dimensional…)
In 23 years, do you think the population of the country also rose? Just one qualifier that would need to be addressed. Did this source take that into consideration?
I am not arguing statistics either way..I am just saying, you need to be careful when using them to prove a point.
OK. Nite folks. My puter is slower than molassas, uphill in a snowstorm….and its making me testy.
BTW, all this is irrelevant. The real problem is the double standard…
Did you miss the part that said those numbers were per 100,000? That covers the increase in population.
Pierre,
You offer no “solutions” you offer only excuses and bigotry.
I’m a “bleeding heart” but you say that blacks are dumber and more violent because of their genes? That sounds like the ultimate excuse. “I can’t help beating up whitey, it’s in my DNA.”
Should we have the government take black children from their mothers at birth and raise them to server their more intelligent overlords? Should we just incarcerate in toddlerhood or just exterminate the species?
Yer a bigot. It doesn’t matter what anyone says, it doesn’t matter what numbers say, you will see everything the way you want to see it, you will read everything the way you want to read it. Your bigotry will interpret all of your experiences and those interpretations will reinforce your bigotry.
And yes, I’m a crappy speller. Boo-freakin-hoo.
So what I say becomes the
when you can’t find an actual excuse, and your answer to the charts question is an ad hom attack. Skillful.
Surveyor #424
Very well said. I said something a little like that above and now I’m being called a (gasp!) liberal.
But my ancestors are Nordic and had a harder life than just about anyone on earth so apparently that poster also thinks that I’m an evolutinary superman (or Ubermensch). I’ll revel in his adoration a while longer, but I really need to get to bed.
I have been looking at the hate crime stats for 2006 and part of the issue is the limited number of bins the law has to group originating race.
For example the categories in 2006 were
White
Black
Native American
Asian
So without looking at the law to see how they define those groupings, where do you put a Greek person or Egyptian or Palestinian.
As to another point of the incarceration rates / 100k, how much was that due to mandatory sentencing and how much was due to people willing to commit crimes changing and how much was due to better apprehension and prosecution of those who were doing the crimes.
All those have to be taken into account.
Part of the issue is the reporting format the hate crime laws have and how the bins are defined.
For example their is anti-Hispanic crimes reported but not a Hispanic perpetrator class.
You can have a white on white hate crime, but that may be for example that crime may be a white crime perp against a white Jew or a white homosexual so it makes it hard to draw conclusions.
General crime (all types not just hate) have more bins to put people in as perps than hate crimes do just because of the specified reporting formats in the law and not as a whim of agencies doing the reporting.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about race relations and whether or not one race is better than the rest, or one is predisposed to crime or what ever.
However, I think that in the case of this, certain people should have kept their opinions to themselves.
I personally think us Asians are under-represented when it comes to crime. I think it’s time we started up the Asian Panthers or some such and started beating up anybody who looked at us funny.
Seriously, the crime statistics are dominated by other ethnic groups. Where is the equality in that?
Well if you would put down the math books long enough to hold up a liquor store once in a while, maybe yiu could get on the chart.
Wow. A lot of responses to this story! Personally, I think they should be charged with a “hate crime”. I doubt they will since minorities don’t hate.
Is this a record for number of comments on a thread? Inquiring minds and all that.
retfireman #431
I agree with you, I’m just sorry I wasn’t awake yet to respond. I read all of the threads before I posted last night, but I don’t think some people took the time to do that. I think Mookie asked why the “racist” comments weren’t deleted. I wonder myself, but I think it gives all of us an opportunity to see for ourselves and let them know how ignorant they sound. See #26 & #144
Disgraceful
pgtips-
Perhaps some crime by Asians is just underinvestigated? Media isn’t make much effort to uncover the various illegalities of Hsu, for example. Isn’t it likely family structure and education plays a big role in crime? Is it a stereotype that Asians and Jews in America stick together and also excel at learning?
Certainly people like the Japanese have their history of vicious crimes against others in the Far east and even today the Yakuza has far-reaching tentacles. Also it does seem that there is plenty of violence on a daily basis in Indonesia and Phillippines, for example.
Don’t some studies show that a major family problem for blacks is the growing percentage of unwed mothers? I mean in the not too distant past, fathers did stay with their kids. I’m not excusing bad behavior, but look at the role models. Bill Cosby said many pertinent things about responsibility and accountability.
I was being tongue in cheek. Asians have their own set of problems and like you say, crimes are largely unreported. It has been said, any where you find lots of Asians, you can bet some underground group is operating there. It can be the snakeheads, the yakuza, the triads, etc. You can bet most (all?) shops in China town pay some gang protection money.
Though one thing I can say about Asian crimes, is that they tend to be a lot more discrete. Threats tend to be implied and it is rarely necessary to carry them out. That’s my experience when growing up anyway.
Where are Jackson and Sharpton? Well, where’s the money? If the two race hustlers can’t milk a few bucks out of it, they’re not interested. This didn’t even make the news. Maybe David Duke should get 10,000 white people to storm baltimore and protest.
Maybe this incident will make a good example for those who claim that the disproportionate number of blacks in prison is racist. 9 criminals to one victim in this crime is really going to increase the ratio. Since they’re just teens, they’re just training for their eventual life of crime. Bill Cosby and Michael Steele are “Uncle Toms” though.
All I want to know is:
Were there any other adults on the bus, and if so, why didn’t they step up?
I’ve lived in four major US metro areas and know the worst time of day to be on public transportation is when the kids get out of school. I also know that had I been on that bus, things would have been different. All it takes is a few, maybe just one, responsible adult(s) to stop this kind of thing.
Also, her BF should have taken the beat-down while she ran. The fact he didn’t sickens me.
Maybe Jesse Jenkem is taking some time off to be with his family…and all his bastard children.
Don’t be sick. Apparently the boyfriend did take a beat-down.
bear1909,
I read your post asking why we lock our doors when we corss the tracks… how does that get passed along. I’ll tell you; through personal experience. I drove truck over the road for eight years, and I learned to fear areas like south central LA and Hell’s kitchen in NYC… On the other hand, I can go into the suburbs of many cities to deliver to a grocery store or building supply store and sleep soundly… because of personal experience.
Places like south central LA, Hell’s kitchen, and Hunt’s point market are dangerous places… period. Ant it’s usually not white kids that are commiting the crome in those neighborhoods either.
Jim C
That should have read “and it’s usually not white kids committing the crimes in those neighborhoods either”.
Furthermore, I don’t really care what their justification for beating on this woman was. If I had pulled something like that when I was a teen it would have been all over. My parents would have put more hurt on me than any judge or cop ever could have.
Jim C
Maybe those comments were left so the rest of us would have a clue to IGNORE in later threads?
I am simply astounded, ASTOUNDED, by the blantant racism casually thrown out by some of the posters. I am disappointed that some have condemned post #144 while allowing other more “intelligent” sounding racism to simply float along. At least #144 had the balls to come out and just say what he felt. Others are hiding behind generally MEANINGLESS statistics(yes, statistics only describe a situation, not interpret) as a shield for them to say whatever underhand insults they want.
If you believe that blacks commit more crime BECAUSE they’re black, come the hell out and say it(Pierre, for one, and others at a lesser degree).
I can’t believe that it’s so commonly accepted that crime is committed BECAUSE pigment is added to a person’s skin.
There is a difference between causality and correlation, and unfortunately, I think some of you who are spouting both statistics and “conventional wisdom” don’t know the difference between the two.
And it’s the liberals who perpetuate the “myth” of racism…..
Regarding Hate Crimes,
I think there is rampart confusion here. Simply because it involves more than one race doesn’t make it a hate crime in even the most theoretical sense. Earlier this year, a teenaged white kid was driving down the street. A few black kids were riding their bike in the street. He beeped at them to move. One was a little slow moving so he pulled out a gun, and shot a 14 kid to death. Was that a hate crime? No! Does the possibility that he wouldn’t have shot if it were three white kids make it a hate crime? NO! The fact of the matter is that he didn’t shoot them BECAUSE they were black.
With this situation, there’s nothing to suggest that they attacked this woman BECAUSE she was white. Is it possibly that they wouldn’t have attacked a woman who was black and thus a woman who was part of their community? Yes, it’s possible. Is it also possible that these thugs would have attacked regardless of their victims race? Yes, that’s possible too! So what exactly makes this a hate crime? WHERE is the hate?
I have just finished reading this entire thread and I must say that I am astonished at what some of you wrote. To each his own; however, please explain (for those who left rather questionable posts) how are you any different from those whom you denounce?
If race is the motivating factor in this beating, (and I suspect it is)how are you letting race define how you see the world?
I understand being angry or frustrated. I am angry and frustrated with the black community. I grew up in this community and yes, I got the hell out of there as soon as I could. I would like for these communities to be cleaned up but that starts at the entitlement level as far as I am concerned. Hate crimes, protected class, welfare, single parent homes, etc… All foster this victimhood mindset.
What happened to this woman is horrible, to say the least. What her boyfriend did or didn’t do, well he is going to have to live with that.
What these kids did - well, I pray that they get what is coming to them. And no, this does not include the red carpet being rolled out and them having their fifteen minutes of fame on BET.
Al and Jesse defend the indefensible and do not do any favors for the community that claim to represent.
Martin Luther King Jr., would roll over in his grave, it’s shameful what the so-called civil rights movement have done to the black community.
This thread is about a woman who was beaten up by middle-schoolers! Praise God, hug your middle-schooler(s) and pat yourself on the back for raising your child right. Pray for those kids. Pray for their parents. Pray for this country. This is no laughing matter.
Stop. Take a deep breath and go back to the original article.
Still having trouble finding the hate?
30pcs,
How are Al and Jesse getting dragged INTO this though? They haven’t even said anything.
Al and Jesse speaks for the black community as much as people here want them too. They have already been injected and linked with this ordeal, despite the fact that they have said nothing about it.
I think it’s sad and disgusting that we blame the black community for these kids going postal, and a white teenager shoots up a mall and we blame HIM. White teenagers shoot up a school and we blame HIM. A white teenager attempts to shoot up a school and we blame HIM. A white worker shoots up his job and we blame HIM. Some black kids beat up some lady, and we don’t just blame them. We blame Jesse Jackson. We blame the Civil Rights movement. We blame welfare. We blame every damn thing that we don’t like. And then WE say that the black community is making the excuses.
30pcs,
How are Al and Jesse getting dragged INTO this though? They haven’t even said anything.
Al and Jesse speaks for the black community as much as people here want them too. They have already been injected and linked with this ordeal, despite the fact that they have said nothing about it.
I think it’s sad and disgusting that we blame the black community for these kids going postal, and a white teenager shoots up a mall and we blame HIM. White teenagers shoot up a school and we blame HIM. A white teenager attempts to shoot up a school and we blame HIM. A white worker shoots up his job and we blame HIM. Some black kids beat up some lady, and we don’t just blame them. We blame Jesse Jackson. We blame the Civil Rights movement. We blame welfare. We blame every damn thing that we don’t like. And then WE say that the black community is making the excuses.
TexasTiger,
Don’t belittle me. I am not a child, and I would appreciate it if you didn’t speak to me as if I were.
Was the shooting of the black kid on the bike by the white kid in the car, that I referred to earlier, a hate crime?
mpChops:
I’m not belittling you. You posed a question that revealed a gaping perception deficit.
First, after reading my post were you able to detect any elements of hate?
Second, I would characterize any unprovoked attack as hateful. Therefore the example you provided would be a hate crime.
Last, Al and Jesse have been dragged into the discussion because they are the dogs that will not bark. No sane person believes that they were involved in the beating. However, it’s fair for others to speculate that they will side with the attackers because Al and Jesses did just that in the case of the Jena 6. Precedence exists.
30pcs,
Has there ever been an instance when a crime like this has been perpetrated by blacks - that they haven’t been involved? I’ll concede that they haven’t said anything - yet.
I think my above comment addresses this.
A very valid argument. However, I don’t have to tell you that there are some very significant differences in white communities versus black communities. This type of behavior is running rampant “in the hood.” I’m sorry but you just cannot say the same for most other neighborhoods. Just to clarify, I am not saying that anywhere black people are voilence and mayhem are sure to follow, that is simply not true. But “in the hood” there is no denying it.
Blanket statements like those you have mentioned above, may be unfair but Dylan Klebold et al, weren’t raised in a neighborhood where what they did would have come as no surprise to the rest of the community. Sadly, what these kids did in Baltimore is par for the course. Just read what most people perceptions of the black community are…there is some basis for it.
Michelle didnt blame al/jesssie, re read what she wrote and try to get down safely from your high hobby horse, wouldnt want you to get hurt. your posts are so FOS its ASTOUNDING! geez.
mpchops
This thread has generated a lot of opinions, it has obviously struck a chord with a lot of people. For me, the horror of it is that there is a disconnect in these young people when it comes to reasonable behavior. What were they thinking! They obviously weren’t. To savagely beat a stranger, be she black or white, for whatever the reason, shows a distinct lack of value of life, respect for their fellow man and a definite disconnect with cause and effect.
Michelle’s original question was “what if the races were reversed?” In this she is right to ask that question, because if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton stood up and condemned this violent act it would do more for their cause than anything else they have done. It would send a clear message to other black youths that this is NOT okay, for ANY reason. But as you state, mpchops, Jesse and Al have said nothing, the silence is deafening. Therein lies a great problem in this great country. Disparity.
Those of us who deplore racism, ignore those that are racist, we are above that sentiment, and the more people speak out against violence such as this, Jesse and Al among them, maybe those disconnected youths and their parents will hear and take action.
My comment about Jesse and Al wasn’t just direceted to MM, but to all the posters after her who went farther than she did.
I disagree with your statement:
To their credit, Jesse and Al frequently, frequently, speak up against the violence in the black community and the violence that is perpetrated by blacks. They frequently do this. Yes, these speeches aren’t covered by CNN or Fox News, but they are very much happening. There is silence only because you do not care to listen, which isn’t a slight against you because it’s not message that you should have to listen to. Even more so, the message is not FOR you. For example, they were recently involved in the effort to bury the word “nigger”. That effort was directed to those in the black community who use it and variations of it. That got moderate press, but that’s the kind of stuff that they are doing that is largely ignored by the general population. It is a misconception to believe that they do not do this kind of stuff.
Again, Jesse and Al speak out against violence frequently, and to be honest, if those speeches aren’t on the mainstream media, you’ll never see them. That isn’t to say that you don’t care, because it’s obvious you do, but if they’re not showing it on CNN or attacking them on sites like this, where would you get the information?
5 kids beat the hell out of a teacher in Germantown, Philly, PA earlier this year or late last year. Kids were black. Teacher was white. Kids broke the teacher’s neck(albeit as unintetionally as a group of people beating down a person can). The teacher was an older fellow who wasn’t really that attractive, so you might not have heard about it.
I have to agree that I haven’t read or heard anything Jesse and Al have had to say about violence in the black community, maybe you could enlighten me.
The issue I have is that if they spoke out in condemnation of horrific acts like this, it would show us all [meaning, black AND white] that they were truly color-blind. After all they are prolific figures in the black community, and what they say is of great influence. By limiting their cause to excuse bad behavior because of the disenfranchisement of the blacks, they show that their motives are suspect.
Mpchops,
You would be correct that I did not hear about this as it was not carried by the major news networks. However, if it had you can rest assured that Al and Jesse would most likely be there.
You have a problem with Al and Jesse not getting their “props” for squelching the word “nigger” well you’ll have to forgive those of us who view this attempt by them as just a show. I heard about it was carried on FoxNews. It’s not enough. It’s behavior that we are reprimanding.
That isn’t to say that you don’t care, because it’s obvious you do, but if they’re not showing it on CNN or attacking them on sites like this, where would you get the information?
Flmom,
These speeches occur usually on a more local level, and again, are directed at a diffent segment of the population than those you are used to hearing. CNN isn’t going to carry this. FoxNews isn’t going to carry this. Personally, I believe its because it doesn’t fit the two charactures(however self-created) of the two revs.
Since they very much do speak out and condemn horrific acts commited by blacks, they don’t limit their cause at all. That is a very big misconception and one that despite everything they do, continues to follow them. Frankly, I think it’s a bit unfair.
And think about this realistically: Why should they have to PROVE themselves to those who refuse to hear them?
30pcs,
Besides the fact that I was completely correct, it wasn’t an illegitimate or belitling assumption. Jesse and Al speak to blacks about black issues within their community. FLMom admitted that she was not a member of the black community, so there was really no medium for her to hear their comments. It was a valid, mature assumption.
If you view that their doing something just for show, fine. But you can’t make the argument that they don’t speak out against offenses committed by blacks, and then when proven that they do, suggest that it doesn’t count because it’s just for show. Either they do speak out against offenses committed by black but just for show, or they don’t speak out against them. You can’t have it both ways.
I will say one thing. This crime has us all fired up. It is just too bad that all of the
politicians that run on law and order platforms cannot get this fired up about crime.
Oh, and the state did not make Ward Churchill an Indian. He decided this himself.
I am not going to argue for FlMom - she can take care of herself. If your comments weren’t directly at me…then I’ll quietly exit stage right.
mpchops as far as I knew there were only a handful (if that) of instances where they denounced reprehensible behavior of blacks. So, no. No hypocrite here.
You don’t speak of the damage that they do and this is why I have a difficult time jumping on the Al and Jesse bandwagon. They blow through town, shake things up and go their merry way.
I would like to see more done that could persuade me from pigeonholing them, but frankly what I have seen so far - Unimpressed. I expect more from so-called leaders. If they are going to lead the black race to the promise land, they way they are going about it, is all wrong - In my estimation.
I take your point - I’ll try to keep an open mind but that have an uphill battle with me.
Good Morning.
Discussions like this one seldom include people who identify as white discussing their own background as it relates to the following questions.
1) What does it *mean* to be “white”? (The meaning, not the definition)
2) What do you like about being “white”?
3) What don’t you like about being “white”?
4) What don’t you ever want to hear again, from people who aren’t white, about what it means to be “white”?
5) When did you first realize you were a “white person”, and how did this occur?
6) What might “white” people in this discussion have in common with the target of this horrible crime committed?
There are many, many more, of course.
jimc
That should have read “and it’s usually not white kids committing the crimes in those neighborhoods either”.
NO WHITE KIDS JUST SHOOT RADOM PEOPLE AT MALLS AND AT SCHOOLS. MAYBE WE SHOULD BE RACIALLY PROFILING WHITE MALES?
deepdiver said
“And so I’m not accused of leaving it out, they also tend to be white males from middle to upper-middle class suburban homes.”
You forgot that white males are more likely to commit sexually peverses crimes such as pedophilia.
When characterizing high tech pedophiles that have been arrested, Special Agent and Chief Spokesman Pete Gulotta of the FBI’s “Innocent Images” Unit, says “they’re almost all white males between the ages of 25 and 45.”
stromsdaughter~
You make the case for profiling criminals. Different groups of people are more likely than others to commit certain types of crimes. But, certain groups also get all bent out of joint when a certain type of crime has been committed and law enforcement profiles the most likely (statistically) to have committed that crime - those groups call it “racial profiling” and says the reason it is done is “institutional racism”. Until statistics change, it’s not “racial profiling”, it’s just “profiling”, and it is a perfectly legitimate law enforcement tool.
As someone said above, I think this epidemic of criminal behavior in certain areas can be traced back to the creation of the welfare state: it told poor fathers (who, in many communities, were black) that their families didn’t need them anymore, that the government could take care of the family instead. In too many cases, the father left, and has never come back, and it has lead to an epidemic of the mother and father not even bothering to get married in the first place. Back in the 50s, blacks faced many social challenges, but you had strong black communities, and even though they may have been poor, had strong “family values”. Too large of a segment of today’s black community no longer holds those same strong family and community values. If we can fix that, I think we can fix the disproportionate number of blacks who commit crimes and end up in prison.
mpchops
I never identified myself as white, but for the record, I am, and my adopted brother is black. We have grown up together since I was 3, 47 years ago. Having said that, I really don’t see what that has to do with the discussion here. Maybe you are telling me I don’t have a point of reference, I don’t know. The fact of the matter remains that until the apologists for violent offenders, be they black or white, stop cherry-picking their causes, and really see where the problem lies, ie with the break-down of social norms, then we will still be discussing this to our graves.
That’s the question so many of us ask when the race baiters insist that every crime committed by a white person against a minority be classified as a “hate crime”.
Perhaps it’s because white people see no importance in these questions and some minority members insist on placing importance on them that the “racial divide” continues to exist in this country.
Once every ethnic group in this country - white, black, Asian, green dancing women from Andromeda (yep, I’m that old) - quits seeing EVERYTHING through the prism of race, then perhaps we can quit applying all the p.c. cr*p to everything. And maybe, just maybe crimes like this will be seen for what they are: a brutal, savage attack on one human being by a gang of other human beings. And maybe, just maybe it will be prosecuted as such.
Now, it’s time for some of you to tell me how misguided and naive I am not to recognize how the poor, disadvantaged minorities have no choice but to act in this anti-social manner. And how white people truly are guilty of the “original sin” of racism, just because of the behavior of some of our ancestors.
Amen FlMom. I just wrote pretty much the same thing on the other thread on same
subject. Ended it with, bet this gets me yelled at.
What happened in the ’60s, according to an Aunt who was a Social Worker just hired
as the Great Society came into being told me was, they would have to go into these
women’s homes and actually look for men’s clothes, shoes, etc. because, if a man was
living there, the woman could not collect welfare for her children. The black women,
according to the government were encouraged to go on welfare rather than to even try
to work. Several that had worked with my Mother at the hospital, as Aides and LPN’s
(LVN’s now) quit to go on welfare because, with the number of children they had, they
could actually make more money. However, the husband had to move out for this to
work.
One of the things that I blame the children’s behavior on is the loss of the strong
Grandmothers. I think that the Grandmothers that are in the black families today are not as strong and family oriented as they used to be. I likened this to the
elephant herd where the young males were removed from the influence of the
Matriarch and the Aunties and they turned rogue when they grew older. I think it’s
the same premise. There is no strong family unit for these kids to be raised in like
there once was, ( and yes, I know that kids raised by good parents can, in the end,
despite everything the parents have done, go bad. I’m talking about the norm not
the exceptions).
That’s unequivically untrue, an a exergeration that has now become the foundation of a line of argument. As I recounted earlier, a white teenager shot a black 14yr old because he was slowly riding in front of the shooter’s car. It was not neccesarily a national incident because there were no screams of racism, despite the races of the people involved. There are plenty of other situations like this. The reason why some peoples perspectives are skewed otherwise is because of the amount of publicity some of the more popular cases get. Using the same logic, we could also conclude that only attractive white women go missing. Simply because they are the only ones that get publicity doesn’t mean they are even a representative sample of the people that go missing.
Ultimately, it seems that this perspective is one that is gotten completely from watching TV.
mpChops, you seem to read only what you like. I never said “everybody” or “all minorities” scream “hate crime” for any white on minority crime. I said “race baiters“.
But then being an apparent (note I said apparent - you could change your tack entirely and still prove that you don’t fit this category - maybe) “race baiter” yourself, your response is pretty much expected.
BTW, the Baltimore authorities have now determined this to be something they are going to investigate as a “hate crime”. So I guess, there’s your “hate”.
I never said you said those words. I simply recounted a situation, http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=5479088, in which no one said anything about it being a “hate crime” despite the fact that the victim was black and the offender was white. It invalidates your point no matter what noun you used, whether it be these phatom “race baiters” or a more concrete proper noun.
Your next comment leads me to believe that you have a very liberal definition of “race baiter”. In your opinion, what exactly is a race baiter? How does one become one? I only ask because countless times, I have said this case isn’t about race, as well as other cases where blacks have been the victim of white crimes. So what exactly makes me an “apparent” race baiter, or was that just an underhanded insult meant to somehow bolster your point?
Hmm. Perhaps your reaction to the original statement. Or perhaps your reaction to the response. Or perhaps your insistence that “race baiters” are no more than “phatom” (sic).
As to your link, nice try. However for you to pretend that the media presents the points of view of every single person, every single time is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. I’m betting (and I don’t bet unless I’m certain I can win) that you could go to that area and find at least one person that could be classified a “race baiter” who yelled about it being a hate crime - it just didn’t get reported by the news simply because the charge held no validity.
Here’s a hint - never say “never”, or “no one”. You are certain to be proven wrong.
Either way, it was nice playing with you, but quite frankly I’d much rather have discussions with rational grown-ups; even (and especially) those who have an opposing viewpoint to mine.
And by the way, I don’t deal in underhanded insults. I find the insult direct to be much more effective. Leaves no room for doubt in the mind of the insultee.
mpChops,
One other thing. I find your lack of response to this being investigated as a possible race-motivated hate crime to be quite telling.
Especially after your post wondering “Where’s the hate?”.
Exactly how else are you supposed to read the stats from the FBI? Blacks are 6 times more likely than whites to die by homicide. Exactly how do you want to paint that? Blacks are 7 times more likely than whites to commit murder. Do you simply close your eyes to the race? Apparently the FBI thinks its quite important.
Would you prefer that I point out that there is a positive correlation amongst all the races between low intelligence and crime? Does that make you feel better?
You challenged me to come up with solutions. I have come up with facts that enable us to start a discussion. For that I am labeled a racist. You have not provided anything other than some childish name calling and bromides.
Before we can fix the problem we must acknowledge the problem. The fact that black men are 6 times more likely to die from murder is scandelous and yet it is not a stat that many seem to be aware of.
No solution that calls for anyones constitutional rights to be violated is acceptable to me. But we need cold hardheaded analysis instead of this feel good crap that is passiing as thought.
I live in Louisiana and the conditions that folks have to live in around here is absolutely terrible. Offering bromides has not made the problems any better…indeed many might say quite justifiably in my view, that all the help that has been offered to the black man has corrupted him. There was a time when it was not this bad…ask yourself when that was.
If one wants a strong child, one does not free them from work and challenge. My children for example work hard. I demand it. No blacks are not children but we must set high standards of behavior for their children. Enough excuses and turning a blind eye to the scandal of murder and mayhem that defines many young black man’s existence in many cities.
My best front waiter when I waited tables at Commanders Palace in New Orleans came in one day very depressed. I asked him what was wrong…told me that when his bus pulled up to his stop two men got off and one shot the other to death right in front of him. Desire projects in New Orleans were just that violent. Enough!
Government Drone,
Ah, so your point is founded on your personal belief that despite that fact that proof may not exist, somewhere, somehow, someone is claiming the shooting was a hate crime. And you feel that this level of proof is sufficient in an “rational”, “grown-up” debate.
Even your answer to my question lacks specificity. Obviously, my responses are the reason why you think I am a race baiter. That is blatantly obvious, as it’s the only thing you would have had to go on. What about my responses makes me an apparent race baiter though?Specifically. That’s the question.
Even more so, I didn’t say that race baiters don’t exist. Look at the structure of my sentence. I was referring to the nameless, faceless, quoteless, race baiters that you were referring to in your original posts. The ones that you finally said that you may not be able to prove they even exist.
Alas, I doubt this is going anywhere. You’ve already concluded that my insistence on facts and specifics are irrational and juvenile.
mpChops:
I will not discuss the question of “race baiters” with you any longer. The reason? Your insistence that if they don’t get quoted in the news they don’t exist. Truly irrational reasoning. And don’t say “I didn’t say that”, because you inferred it at least twice.
However, I will make this statement again:
One other thing. I find your lack of response to this being investigated as a possible race-motivated hate crime to be quite telling.
Especially after your post wondering “Where’s the hate?”.
I apologize. Maybe I jumped the gun. I didn’t automatically assume a racial intent in every attack that involves more than one race.
One other thing mpChops. Quit putting words in my mouth. At no time did I ever even imply this:
Once you do something like that, the discussion is over as far as I’m concerned. Call me what you like, just don’t call me late for supper. But when you start putting words in my mouth - game over. Sorry, but you’re going to have to find a new playmate.
mp chops
This is my last post on this thread, I hope. You just don’t seem to get it, you are focusing on the statistics that show facts that you don’t want to face. Now I know they aren’t pretty, but instead of trying to argue them away, face facts. The more people do then the closer we are some sort of solution. Sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting “racism” will not make the problem go away, addressing them will.
All I am asking is that you prove this statement. I don’t think it’s an irrational request.
Sorry, but had to say this about post #482, you may not jump to the racial intent in crimes involving more than one race, but we all know who does.
If people would quit yelling racism and sit down and really talk with each other instead of
at each other, then just maybe, we could solve the greater part of the race issue once and
for all. I am not enough of a Pollyanna (though I have been accused of being so) to believe
that it will ever go away for good because as long as people need a scapegoat, racism will
always be handy.
Flmom,
Is that really what you’ve concluded? I have never said that the proportion of crime commited by blacks in not a problem. I simply haven’t said that, and if you want to point out where I did, I would be glad to clarify. What I HAVE said repeatidly is that there is no black on white crime epidemicl; black criminals are preying on white victims.
That’s the conclusion that others have been trying to promote with their statitics, and that’s really the foundation of this entire debate. This is a story about blacks doing something criminal. This is a story about blacks doing something criminal to whites, and the effects of that.
Again, I have not addressed black crime in general. Read my post #352.
I’m not exactly sure how your last post to me responds to my last post you either, so I’m not exactly sure where you’re coming from.
This part of this thread is that stromsdaughter from the very first post shows that black racism DOES exist! Apparently this is payback from atrocities from the 1800s, you know, the kind that no black alive today has ever experienced but apparently needs to “payback.”
Governmentdrone,
Let’s call a spade a spade.
Read what yuor wrote earlier:
Here, you feel that inferring it is just as good as saying it. So, as you said, don’t go around saying “I didn’t say that”.
Furthermore, Are you arguing that you didn’t imply that “you may not be able to prove they even exist” when you write that my insistence of some proof of their existence in this case is irrational?
Fine. Use your escape clause. The foundation of your argument was weak. I called you on it. It happens.
mp chops
This is really,really, really my last post on this. Let’s go back to the start of this thread; Michelle’s question ” What if the races were reversed?” This is what I am discussing, that and what caused 9 thugs to do what they did, now I know that this has veered into many different avenues, but my point is, not to fall into the trap that many on this thread have and look at the nut of the problem being discussed. That was the point of my comment, now I’m tired of discussing what the proverbial ‘is’ is.
Bye
‘