New Jersey Democrats move to end death penalty
Richard and Shirley Hazard, murdered by NJ Death Row killer Brian Wakefield
Instead of upholding the law, streamlining the appeals process, and carrying out death penalty sentences, New Jersey Democrats are moving to just give up and scrap the death penalty altogether. Yesterday, two legislative bodies took steps to repeal the death penalty–and Democrat Gov. Jon Corzine is poised to sign the bill. An Assembly vote is scheduled for Thursday:
The Legislature moved New Jersey closer Monday to becoming the first state to pass a law repealing the death penalty since it was nationally reinstated in 1976.
The state Senate passed the measure 21-16, and the Assembly Public Law and Safety Committee advanced the bill by a 5-1 vote to the full Assembly. The Assembly will take up the bill Thursday, positioning New Jersey to replace capital punishment with life in prison without parole by early next year.
Support for the repeal in the Legislature comes from different areas. Some oppose it on moral grounds, while others say the unused law — no one in New Jersey has been executed since 1963 — is unfair for victims’ families who seek swift justice but have to endure a lengthy appeals process.
“We shouldn’t have the death penalty unless we’re going to use it. And we shouldn’t use it if there is a chance of executing an innocent person,” said the bill’s sponsor, Sen. Raymond J. Lesniak, D-Union.
Senate President Richard J. Codey, D-Essex, said the best thing for victims’ families is “to be honest with them.”
“Don’t tell them we are going to execute somebody when the reality is that it’s not going to happen, at least not here in the state of New Jersey,” said Codey.
If passed by the Assembly as expected Thursday, the bill then goes to Gov. Jon S. Corzine, who has until Jan. 8 to sign the measure. Corzine has strongly indicated he will sign the bill.
A Quinnipiac poll shows 53 percent of New Jerseyans surveyed oppose ending the death penalty and 39 percent support eliminating it.
I received an e-mail from a young woman who graduated from my high school alma mater in South Jersey, Holy Spirit High School. She’s Nikki Hazard Rivera and she wanted me to share her family’s story:
The reason that I write to you is not just for my family but for families across the state of NJ. I am hoping that you may be able to help us add some much needed light to this dire situation.
Unfortunately, you may have heard of my grandparents, Richard and Shirley Hazard. They lived in Pleasantville, NJ for much of my life and many years before. In fact, some of my fondest childhood memories were created with them and in their home. Sadly, on January 18th, 2001, my grandparents’ home was the place where they died. They were brutally murdered in their home by Brian Wakefield. They were beaten, stabbed, robbed and set ablaze along with their home. Brian Wakefield was tried and convicted in March of 2003 and sentenced to death. However, that is in the process of being overturned. My aunt, Sharon Hazard-Johnson, has made it her life’s mission to see that they did not die in vain..
Mrs. Malkin, my grandparents were the mainstay and cornerstone of our family. They taught all of us, children, grandchildren and great-grand children, the right way of life and how to live. They taught us how to be self-sufficient, to work hard for what you want, and that above all love and family ALWAYS comes first. That day, my heart was broken because daughter lost her great grandparents, my dad , aunts and uncle los their parents, I lost my grandparents and we all lost two significant influences in our lives before their time. Even as painful as that is, you can’t imagine how bittersweet the birth of our twin daughters was, knowing that they would never have the honor of knowing and learning from their great grandparents.
As much as our family loved my grandparents, we weren’t the only ones. Here are just a few quotes that others have said about my grandparents and family:
* “Having grown up in our city of Worcester (Mass), it was a great pleasure in knowing all of the Hazards. Our families go so far back as to the civil war. The Troy’s often speak of your family and it is with great admiration and affection of friendships that last a life time.”
* “I personally knew the Hazards. They were fine Christian, God-fearing people who opened their home up to anyone and color had no bearing. They shared their table and their drink and they were very much in love. Mr. Hazard also had his beer every once in a while, and loved to talk about how he was spending his time since he had retired from the electric company. They didn’t deserve to die and they didn’t deserve to die they way they did. Anyone who knew the Hazard children can vouch for the fact the Hazards raised fine, upright children into fine, upright adults. I worked with one daughter’s husband, and did work with another daughter. They are some of the finest people I ever met. My heart almost stopped beating the day I heard the news of their murders. I am still haunted by Mr. Hazard’s Hazard’s visage…still see him in his easy chair next to his zero clearance wood stove, still see him sipping his beer. I don’t believe in an eye for an eye but I do believe in capital punishment for two reasons: a)I don’t want that dog to kill anyone else ever again and b)I don’t see why I should have to pay taxes to cover his incarceration costs. Posted by: Glensan on Tue Nov 13, 2007, 9:05 PM-Pressofatlanticcity.com”
But don’t take my word for it. I’d like for you to see for yourself and meet my grandparents, Richard & Shirley Hazard…
Here’s a video tribute to the Hazards:
More from Nikki:
…The reason that I write to you today, Mrs. Malkin, is that Gov. Corzine will reduce death sentences to life in prison without parole on January 8th, 2008- just 10 days short of the 7 year anniversary of my grandparents’ horrific death (NJ set to scrap death penalty) . He is an opponent of capital punishment and will use his power to abolish the death penalty even though it’s been reinstated previously in 1976. ( Daughter of Slain Couple- NJ Should Not Abolish the Death Penalty ) The people of NJ WERE NOT given the chance to voice their opinion by way of a vote on this issue at ALL. They were not given the opportunity to agree or disagree. Their voice was taken away, just as the voice of my grandparents were silenced, without their say or permission (Abolishing NJ death penalty to get lame duck treatment) .
Any assistance that you can offer by placing a spotlight on this situation would greatly appreciated. It’s unfair to Corizine’s constituents and to the victims and survivors of these crimes or any future crimes that may be committed. The American public SUPPORT the death penalty and cases such as ours strike the hearts and resonates with the people of America’s common man.
Case in point is Cheshire, CT. There a mother and two daughters were sexually assaulted, made to withdrawal money from their checking account and then their home set ablaze, leaving them tied up, to die by smoke inhalation. In the article, the writer, Ms. Marian Gail Brown, quotes a study that ” A Quinnipiac University poll cited by both Connelly and Walkley released about two weeks ago shows that 63 percent of state residents favor the death penalty for those convicted of murder and that 75 percent indicated they did in the aftermath of the Cheshire incident.” Moreover, one of Waterbury CT’s state Attorneys, John T. Wakley, was quoted as saying,” Until the events in Cheshire last summer, I had been convinced that Connecticut was moving away from [imposing] the death penalty,” Walkley said. “After Cheshire, I think that possibility is more than remote.” Another CT state attorney, John A. Connelly said, “If we didn’t have the death penalty in Connecticut, the Cheshire case would have” created a hue and cry for one. I think the Cheshire case is going to change a lot of people’s minds” and influence legislators to consider “toughening the penalties for certain crimes.” (Cheshire slayings shape death penalty views )
While I do understand how late this request is in relation to the progression of this case and situation is, you are our last hope. We have spent time in front of the media, we have sent out petitions, appeared in court ready to testify, but not permitted to do so by the courts ( see attached). All we really want is for the situation to be highlighted and focused on and the chance for the people of NJ to vote on the fate of the death penalty. No lame duck decisions allowed or approved.
Mrs. Malkin, I cannot thank you enough for your time. We so GREATLY appreciate any way that you could assist us in making this case known and the death penalty remain intact.
Thank you and God Bless you and yours.
And here’s Sharon Hazard-Johnson’s letter to the Atlantic City Press published over the weekend:
As the daughter of Richard and Shirley Hazard, who were murdered in their Pleasantville home in 2001, I know the agony of crime and the criminal justice system is real. But do not believe for one second that the death penalty is not working.
When our death-penalty statute was revised, we didn’t just start executing people. We implemented a process that is still in development. For the sake of certainty and justice, it is a process well worth the time, money and resources we have already invested. To abolish it now would be a tremendous waste of our investment and show of disrespect for victims.
The state commission that studied the death penalty didn’t even ask the real question: What or who is keeping the death penalty from being carried out and why?
Today, there is a death-row inmate in New Jersey who has exhausted his appeals. Now is the time to study the stalling tactics, get to the real issues and start administering the death penalty – an unpleasant and difficult task, but one that must be undertaken.
SHARON HAZARD-JOHNSON
Mays Landing
More families of victims killed by NJ Death Row murderers speak out here.
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Just like Huckabee in AR the politicians care not what the victims want. They will do what the hell they want every time, egotisitical, shameless, lacking morals….that would describe every politician I have read and or met…local, state and federal….pigs all.
I am from New Jersey as well and I USED to be proud to say that. It’s not any coincidence that it’s the most corrupt state in the country and led by liberal democrats. How anyone can think that the scumbag that murdered the Mr. and Mrs. Hazard shouldn’t be executed is beyond me.
But then again, we are talking about a state led by liberals.
They may as well have abolished it years ago since they were never going to use it. The worst kinds of cop-killers, miscreants and other assorted human debris have either sat on death row for decades or never received the death penalty to begin with.
The Democrats in this state are more concerned with currying favor with the far left and the ACLU (not to mention lining their pockets) than they are with protecting the citizenry.
Along the same line: I’m willing to bet that if you told a Dem that waterboarding a terrorist would, without a doubt, save one life – they’d still be against it – claiming that it’s too extreme. They live in a backwards world.
Great ’cause they’re killing me!
I would have thought the Duke rape case would serve to finally convince people that the death penalty is far too dangerous a tool to let the government wield. Life without parole should be enough (as long as it actually means life without parole).
Obviously if we eliminate the death penalty there are going to be a lot of people wasting oxygen that don’t deserve to live. But at least we’ll know that haven’t killed someone who’s been railroaded by the likes of Nifong.
Also, just as an aside, isn’t it kind of self-contradictory to make so many references to being a Christian while pleading for someone to be killed?
Yep once again the corrupt Dems are at work in this state. Thank God I live in southern NJ away from most of the sleeze but still have to live with the scum that runs this state. This really is two different states but North Jersey controls everything and that is the New York influence.
More and more this is happening when people vote in rich, spoiled brats who think the world revolves around them. We see it with Spitzer in NY and Corzine in NJ. They are there to serve the people, not to serve themselves, but they are so used to just getting their own way in all things that they forget this. They think they are God. And dopey people keep voting for them!
Well this is one thing I agree with them on.
The death penalty properly applied deters crime for that perpetrator and likely deters others if the punishment happens in a reasonable time – sort of like the old west – trial today and hang tomorrow.
Consider the death penalty as a way of allowing the person to recycle and come back as a better person.
Corzine is the embodiment of evil. This Lucifer of high finance spent over $60 million dollars of his money as a stepping stone into politics where he’s been a one-man deconstruction crew for the rule of law. What was New Jersey’s state saying: Liberalism & Landfills?
Felix,
Maybe you should learn something of Christianity before you spout stupid comments. Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. As such, an eye for an eye still stands.
There is a lot to be said for swift justice, and public beheadings.
When I lived in Saudi Arabia, I witnessed three public executions. One for child rape, and the other two for murder. It made you stop and take notice!
They also published names and pictures of those who suffered capitol punishment (from heheadings to limb amputation) for various crimes committed around the country.
It didn’t do much to hamper terrorism, but civil society was very “civil”…
)
Gandolphxx, though I appreciated the joke about reincarnation, surely you know that “trial today and hang tomorrow” is an incredibly foolish way to use capital punishment. Over 100 Americans have been exonerated after being sent to Death Row. Those innocent Americans would be dead if it weren’t for people stepping in and getting them the representation they deserve.
People make mistakes. Period. Any system where a mistake can kill an innocent person with no real benefit is a flawed and indefensible system. It would be one thing if capital punishment actually prevented crime, but it doesn’t.
(And, yes, there are states that implemented the death penalty and saw homicides drop. There are other states that implemented the death penalty and saw the opposite. Crime rises and falls independent of the punishment awaiting the criminal.)
I’m perfectly aware that New Jersey Democrats are corrupt. Any legislature with a one party majority for so long will see that happen. But kudos to them for trying to end this barbaric practice. I hope more states follow New Jersey’s lead.
The day this bill is signed will be a great day.
Yet another case of the judicial system not enforcing laws that are already on the books.
So, often we forget the victims and whenever this happens the perps summarily fill the vacuum. Lest we forget, the man brutally murdered two people and was sentenced to death. He has exhausted the appeals process and now Corzine, the same governor who couldn’t get to the Rutgers Women’s basketball press conference fast enough, broke laws by speeding and not wearing a seatbelt. The vehicle crashed and he was hospitalized. This same Governor who is trying to backdoor the law to get it repealed. Integrity, he has none. My prayers are with this family.
_______________________________________
The Duke rape case while an obvious miscarriage of justice, was not a death penalty care. Please clarify what one has to do with the other?
No, not in the least. Capital punishment is warranted due to the sanctity of life.
New Jersey is rapidly becoming the cesspit of American social and political life. The state is run by corrupt Dem political bosses.
I would like to say I feel some sympathy for the people of NJ, but I can’t. People get the gov’t they deserve, and the people of NJ have consistently voted in Corrupt Democrats by large majorities for decades. They are responsible, and only they can rectify this pathetic situation.
There I fixed it for ya.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
“Sanctity of life,” eh? If life is so sacrosanct, that means we shouldn’t be taking it. If killing someone is so bad (which it is, of course), then maybe it isn’t a practice our governments should be engaging in.
To follow the liberals argument against the death penalty out to it’s end. This is how it would explain the tragedy in Colorado. The church should not have had armed guards, they should not have shot to kill. And even if he is shooting at someone he may not hit them or wound them so, to return fire would be wrong. And he should be given several chances at surrendering. And his identity should be established before trying to subdue him as he might not be who he says he is…And..And..And
Bah. Tango Foxtrot of the most annoying kind.
Anyways, I have to say that I’m just not chocked anymore by politicians of any kind doing this sort of thing.
And honestly, there’s no need to keep them in prison. You just let me know when and where they get released.
Marshall Russ,
That does not follow. You lesson your argument with it. It’s ridiculous to suggest that those who oppose the death penalty also oppose self defense. It’s akin to saying that those who support the death penalty also support cold-blooded murder.
Another Two-Faced bunch of politicians ignoring the will of the people for their own agenda … anyone know just how many people have been sentenced to death in NJ but never executed since 1976? … that’s over 30 years of never carrying out a sentence of execution agreed upon by a jury … no way the appeals process should be able to be drawn out for that long …
What are you going to do? I mean, really. You’re going to go to a prison and what, attack a person you’ve never met before?
China is the way forward: a bullet in the head and send the invoice of the bullet to the family.
Simple.
Oh please. That armed woman in CO is clearly a hero. Self-defense and capital punishment? That’s like comparing apples and boomboxes.
mpChops, I would never do such a thing…
But it IS New Jersey dude. There’s GOTTA be a guy, if you know what I mean…
I love how the left exonerates everyone and declares that only innocent people have ever been executed. I love how the left believes that no one has ever escaped from prison to commit another murder, or no one has ever killed someone else while in prison. I love how the left believes that prison actually rehabilitates everyone, and that no one released on parole, or granted clemency or a pardon has never ever committed another crime.
It must be really interesting to live in such a place so divorced from reality.
swj,
Don’t worry about it. Word is the water is killing them. Worst in the country. Personally, I just want New Jerseyans to stay on their side of the river.
I challenge the premise that the death penalty is a stiffer penalty than life in prison. I would say it lets the culprit off the hook. Let them rot in prison for the rest of their life.
JHSII,
It really must be, because I’ve never heard those claims.
I’ll ask you a serious personal question though, because I think this is one of the places where the divide occurs:
Do you feel that one innocent man should be put to death if it means that 100 guilty men would?
It’s an open question. Anyone can answer.
Well it didn’t take long before some Liberal made this statement…one that he knows nothing about. One where he comments on a subject that he obviously has no study on. Had he actually been a Christian, he would have known why Christians were well within Christianity to be for the Death Penalty. I had covered this in a previous post, but for the slower people who obviously have a learning problem, I will once again cover this for them.
While the Liberals and other opposers to the Death Penalty like to cherry pick over used quotes out of the Bible like “Thou shalt not kill” etc., without actually knowing what the actual meanings are, if they ever read the Bible, they would know that the actual Commandment is “Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder” and that the punishment for said crime is to be put to death. In fact, the punishment for many things, according to the Bible, such as adultery, amongst others, is death. War is also acceptable in the Bible and God Himself commands it on many occasions. How dare any of you sit there, think you to be so sanctimonious just because you might have seen a stanza or phrase somewhere and think you can speak to people who actually do know what they are talking about.
The simple fact is, Liberals and Democrats care more for the criminals and their “rights” than they do the rights of the victims and the victims families. SOmewhere along the way in this country, the victims have become the prosecuted. While I never would like to see an innocent person wind up behind bars, to hear a Liberal speak, you would think that there were millions of innocent people languishing behind bars on a daily basis. Let me tell you something guys, if you ask a convict, they will all tell you they are innocent. That does not mean that they are. Mumia is guilty as sin. Peterson is guilty as sin. OJ is guilty as sin.
The Death Penalty is a punishment. It is a punishment that is reserved for the worst of the worst offenders in our society. It is meant as a way to remove these violent people from the gene pool. You may feel that just putting them away in prison for the rest of their natural lives without parole is enough, but the most dangerous person on the planet if a lifer in prison. They have nothing to lose and become even more dangerous to the other inmantes as well as the prison guards and other staff members. To think that they will never harm another person again is so naive that you would have to have the IQ of a turnip to believe it. Is the life of a prison guard who has to be tested the rest of his life for hepatitis and AIDS because he was bit or gassed by this murdering scum worth the fact that he wasn’t taken out of the gene pool? How about the fact that maybe some actual innocent person who was in prison who got shanked by this guy?
Your logic is the most flawed of all. You think you can just throw them in prison and forget them. Well you obviously have no idea what happens in an American prison once a lifer goes in, what they are like and what becomes of them. As a Christian, we are more that within our Christian beliefs to call for their deaths, to send them on to Hell for their crimes against God and humanity, and to make sure that they never again harm another human being. It is you Liberals that wish to subject other innocents to their evil ways for years and years to come. You all need to rethink your priorities…for you so plainly have none.
I agree. It’s at least inconsistent to say that those whom commit murders then kill themselves are cowards and have taken the easy way out, and then turn around and say that if they didn’t kill themselves, we would kill them.
You’ve misunderstood completely, and it isn’t the first time.
________________________________________
“The Old Testament also teaches that God instituted capital punishment in the Jewish law code. In fact, the principle of capital punishment even precedes the Old Testament law code. According to Genesis 9:6, capital punishment is based upon a belief in the sanctity of life. It says, “Whoever sheds man’s blood by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God, He made man.”
In a sense, opponents of capital punishment who argue that it is not a deterrent are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the criminal rather than to the victim. I agree with the poet Hyman Barshay:
The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing its beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down.”
If capital punishment is even a potential deterrent, that is a significant enough social reason to implement it.
And if Gov. Corzine had one leg to stand on, it wouldn’t be necessary to backdoor this repeal of the law.
And you want to hold up NJ as a shining example of how to get this done.
I laugh on your lapel. HA!
I can guarantee everyone that after the OK City bombing they could have saved us all a ton of money by letting McVeigh and Nichols go and letting the citizens know which way they went … they would have never made it to the state line … and they would have never found the bodies either …
I know it costs tons of money each year to take care of a prisoner … compare that to the costs of carrying out a sentence of execution after all the appeals have been exhausted and tell me which one is wasting public money if the jury’s will is ignored …
No Christian can make that call. We do not judge a man’s soul even if we do judge their actions, and we can not punish them for “crimes against God”. That’s a dangerous, dangerous way to think, and is really the foundation of the muslim laws that we so frequently criticize.
AH, the liberal mindset that just makes me go, “WHISKY TANGO FOXTROT!!!”
Save the lives of killers (because we might make a mistake) kill the unborn and then talk about the “Sanctity of life” as if they have a clue.
An amoeba is a living thing comprised of 1 cell. A baby in the womb comprised of billions is not worth saving as it is not breathing air yet. 1.5 million babies killed each and every year. Approximate 30 million babies killed since Roe vs. Wade. But 100 innocent incarcerated persons killed by accident (and I will even give them by design for the sake of argument) is beyond what liberals can wrap their warped minds around.
Enough of that sanctimonious garbage please.
mpChops,
Depends, frankly, on the guilty.
100 rapists and murderers?
Sure thing. I’ll even volunteer for the “innocent” slot.
Stop laughing AJ. I’m technically innocent.
Vote Republican!
swj … LMAO …
Personally, I agree. I think the sanctimonious BS should be left out of the discussion completely.
But keep in mind it wasn’t a liberal who brought up the whole “sanctity of life” argument.
Swj,
No, there’s no volunteering. That defeats the point. It’s not condemning someone to death if the person volunteers.
Would you allow an innocent person to be killed if it would ensure the deaths of 100 guilty persons?
30pcs, all the Old Testament stuff is total BS. Yeah, it says that war and capital punishment are ok. It also talks about having to sell your daughter into slavery and being ostracized for wearing clothing made of more than one fabric.
May God have mercy on your soul if you’re wearing a cotton-poly blend.
But the New Testament is a different story. The New Testament preaches forgiveness. It preaches “turning the other cheek.” In other words, vengeance is unacceptable.
The four gospels in the New Testament remain one of the greatest criticisms of capital punishment. An innocent Man is sent to his death because that’s what the people want. Well, what the people decide, whether it be an unruly mob or 12 jurors, can be wrong. Why err on the side of death and potentially kill innocent people?
MpChops said:
I wonder how the global warming crowd feels about this. People with life without parole sentences do nothing but put more CO2 in the air. A lot of these guys favor limits on the number of children you can have, so why not just expeditiously kill people on death row?
[/silly statement]
Actually, mpChops, executing a few innocent people here or there isn’t actually a bad thing for society as a whole. It keeps all of us on our toes.
Compare the society of, for example, Singapore (trial and rapid execution, even for crimes considered to be “minor” in the West, like possession of drugs), and Western societies. The result? Singapore is a better and safer place to live than anywhere I’ve been in the West.
Um, yeah it is. Where are we, Omelas?
You mean like, say, the UNBORN?
cRusty, stop talking to us about the death penalty when you whole-heartedly support it. You just call your death penalty “choice”.
On December 11th, 2007 at 10:40 am, mpChops said:#21
Marshall Russ,
That does not follow. You lesson your argument with it. It’s ridiculous to suggest that those who oppose the death penalty also oppose self defense. It’s akin to saying that those who support the death penalty also support cold-blooded murder.
Sorry mpChops. Your conclusion is askew.
The death penalty is not murder.The Colorado killer was murdering people cold bloodily.
The brave security guard Constitutionally became judge,jury and executioner.
Aw Rusty. Your misunderstanding of the Bible is astonishing.
“In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is not arguing against the principle of a life for a life. Rather He is speaking to the issue of our personal desire for vengeance. He is not denying the power and responsibility of the government. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is speaking to individual Christians. He is telling Christians that they should not try to replace the power of the government. Jesus does not deny the power and authority of government, but rather He calls individual Christians to love their enemies and turn the other cheek.
Some have said that Jesus set aside capital punishment in John 8 when He did not call for the woman caught in adultery to be stoned. But remember the context. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus between the Roman law and the Mosaic law. If He said that they should stone her, He would break the Roman law. If He refused to allow them to stone her, He would break the Mosaic law (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22). Jesus’ answer avoided the conflict: He said that he who was without sin should cast the first stone. Since He did teach that a stone be thrown (John 8:7), this is not an abolition of the death penalty.
In other places in the New Testament we see the principle of capital punishment being reinforced. Romans 13:1-7, for example, teaches that human government is ordained by God and that the civil magistrate is a minister of God. We are to obey government for we are taught that government does not bear the sword in vain. The fact that the Apostle Paul used the image of the sword further supports the idea that capital punishment was to be used by government in the New Testament age as well. Rather than abolish the idea of the death penalty, Paul uses the emblem of the Roman sword to reinforce the idea of capital punishment. The New Testament did not abolish the death penalty; it reinforced the principle of capital punishment.”
As for an answer to your last question, please read #31. It sums it up pretty nicely.
Personally – I like the “Escape from New York” scenario:
Put them all on an island – airdrop their supplies – and let them rot.
With today’s technology and DNA testing, less innocent people should be sentenced to death. I believe in the death penalty for serious crimes such as murder, etc..
You can argue all day long about whether or not it’s a deterrent. But there is no question whatsoever that the executed criminal will never commit another crime. Deterrent? Maybe. Repeat offender? Not a chance.
Justice delayed is justice denied. Every time justice is denied, another little rent is made in the fabric of society. Who really cares about the victims and their loved ones?
Death penalty opponents claim that executing convicted murderers is
“cruel and unusual punishment.” I don’t happen to think so. What I think is cruel is to allow the victims’ surviving loved ones to be forced to watch as the perps are treated with more respect and solicitation than their victims.
Where is their justice?Who will comfort them? Will Rusty, mpChops, and Mister P go personally to the homes of murder victim families and eexplain why murderers have more right to life than their loved ones?
Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
Oh for Pete’s sake, Soap, save it for another thread.
It’s michellemalkin.com. There will be an abortion thread eventually.
And “cRusty”? You are so clever!
There is a big problem with life without parole and doing away with the death
penalty illustrates the problem. Do away with the death penalty, give criminals
even Dahmer and Bundy types life without parole, the doofus left elects a
bleeding heart liberal governor and he/she commutes these sentences and lets
all of these people back out into the streets.
I was quoting you directly. Were you trying to frame the discussion?
Actually, Soap brings up an old, but valid argument…
Liberals complain that the party of ‘pro-life’ is also in great part in favor of the death penalty.
What they don’t mention is the opposite fact – that the party of legalized abortion is the party that despises the death penalty.
Which side is more ‘moral’? The one that sides with allowing criminals such as convicted murderers to live – or the one that sides with unborn innocent children?
I know which side I stand on.
I borrowed cRusty from someone more clever than I – Bear.
Clever come-back.
Just showing your hypocrisy to those who have not yet experienced it yet.
Whether or not you agree with the death penalty doesn’t change the fact that it is currently the law and that a sentence was given that should be carried out if the law, as it is now, is to be followed and upheld.
You can’t selectively enforce the law based on your own personal beliefss.
And for the people that support this law as a way to reverse the people on death row, how many people had a problem with Congress interfering with Terry Schaivo? I fail to see how this is any different.
The death penalty being murder or not being murder is a matter of semantics and perspective.
The security guard was none of those things. The security guard was a person trying to defend themself and those who could not. She was no more judge, jury and executioner as a lion is defending her cubs. Those ideas are of a higher level than frankly was needed at the time. There was a threat and the threat needed to be stopped. Period.
Irrelevant Neo-con bashing liberal statement regarding the Bush administration in 3….2….1….
That is not my quote.
30, I don’t think “We are to obey government for we are taught that government does not bear the sword in vain” is a very good lesson. The government can indeed bear the sword in vain. Like, say, Jesus’s execution. And there have certainly been cases where an innocent American was killed for a crime he/she did not commit. And we haven’t even touched the racial discrepancies in contemporary American capital punishment.
The government has proven itself inadequate at imposing the ultimate punishment.
There are a number of recent studies concerning the effectiveness of the death penalty in reducing the murder rate. There studies were done by liberal academics who were trying to produce evidence against the death penalty. The conclusion of the studies was that for every execution as few as 3 people are saved from murder and possibly as many as 18.
Liberalism is now the most destructive force in American politics. It is anti-religious, socialistic and immoral in its outlook.
#58 taylork, Good point…only the libs are in favor of nullification. For them it is perfectly all right to ignore or avoid any law they disagree with.
That’s all very well, Rusty. But the New Testament is 2,000 years old. Kindly explain its relevance to how criminals should be dealt with in this day and age.
Taylork,
The law states that a man caught wearing red underwear should have a 25year mandatory sentence.
The next year, the legistlature changes the law saying that the max should be 5 years.
Should a man sentenced under the first law have his sentenced reduced?
Personally, I think he should. It’s the crime that he was convicted of, not the punishment. If that were the case, the whole idea of appeals should be thrown out as well, as we could argue that a judgement is a judgement and once its made, should never be looked at again.
In the case of those sentenced to the death penalty – the state is the one who defends those who can not – the citizenry.
As for judge, jury and executioner – the legal system provides for all 3.
Those condemned to die have had their judge – their jury – and someday, their executioner. They are given years of review for their cases.
How many times do those anti-death penalty advocates review the victims of their crimes?
The donks actually DO what they claim the republicans of. Closed door sessions? No public input? Rule by decree? Yes. Yes. And Yes.
Scratch a liberal, find a fascist.
Please cite one.
The study that most people refer to is completely inaccurate, as they look at the country as a whole instead of states that just have the death penalty. For example, if Texas’s murder rate increased by 1, and New Hamshires decreased by 4, they argue that the death penalty has decreased the murder rate by 3 nationally.
The abortion and capital punishment debates are apples and oranges. Fetuses and zygotes are not humans. They can not survive on their own. At what point would you consider a zygote a human? Conception? Because that would be crazy. Viability seems like a perfectly fine compromise. And that’s the law that’s on the books now.
Some poor sap, an actual human being, who was too poor to afford adequate representation and was sent to Death Row for a murder he didn’t commit… That earns more of my sympathy than something that can’t survive outside of the womb.
As rough as it sounds, the death penalty isn’t for the victims. It’s for society. It really isn’t for the victims, although the victims sometimes are “settled” when the offender is put to death.
How true, how true
I was discussing whether Christians should support the death penalty. Not whether the death penalty is an acceptable contemporary solution. The former, as 30 shows, is up in the air. The latter is not. The death penalty doesn’t work. It penalizes black-on-white crime harder than crimes between other races. It doesn’t deter. It puts the innocent at risk. It’s an embarrassment to the international community.
Rusty brings up a good point:
The fact that the amount of money one can spend on representation directly relates to the likelyhood that they would be even sentenced to death clearly demonstrates that the system itself does not work.
The fact that a poor person is more likely to be put to death than a more well off person for the SAME OFFENSE is indefensible.
I honestly wish that death-penalty proponents wouldn’t bother with the ‘deterrent’ argument.
What is wrong with, when having a sentence of death which has been lawfully approved by the state, simply stating that the condemned will not commit another crime – Ever.
If a man takes another person / persons life – depending on the circumstances – then they have shown a blatant disregard for life. Yet they hoot and holler for years about the ‘wrongness’ of their death sentence.
Where was that outrage towards death when they pulled the trigger, used their blade or otherwise vanquished an innocent life?
In 12 years of Jesuit education I was never once instructed that Christ advocated capital punishment. I remember a lot of stuff about cheek-turning and the meek inheriting the Earth. And just FYI, the real meaning of “an eye for an eye” is a plea to keep punishment proportional, not a cry for vengence. Maybe you should learn a little something before you devote your life to beliefs you don’t understand.
Calling me a liberal is patently absurd. I’m pro-small government, pro-gun rights, pro-property rights, pro-war, pro-border security, anti-affirmative action, voted for Regan, Bush, Dole and Bush. You, RetFireman, have personally agreed with me and even applauded my posts on other topics in the past. I suppose you’re a liberal too.
And, as noted above, I have a great deal of religious education.
That’s what made me an athiest.
It’s a high-profile example of a prosecutor with an agenda prosecuting someone for reasons that have nothing at all to do with justice. If you think Nifong is unique you’re sadly mistaken, and I for one do not think such people should be trusted with the power of life and death.
Anyone equating self-defense with the government executing someone is badly misunderstanding one or the other of those actions.
You all seem to think that being anti-death penalty automatically means someone wants to open the prisons and sing Kumbaya with the child molesters as they skip on out to freedom. That’s not the case at all. What I’m saying is that we have a criminal justice system that freed OJ Simpson, tried to convict the Duke lacrosse team, is about to free the Jena 6, gave millions of dollars to Rodney King and sent Scooter Libby to prison. And those are just the cases that made the news. How anyone could look at this system and think it’s a good idea to trust it with the power to kill is completely beyond me.
Rusty, when did your deification take place? I must have missed it.
If you can arbitrarily declare fetuses and zygotes to be non human, I can just as arbitrarily declare murderers to be non human.
mpChops# When is a killer less of a threat? When he runs out of ammo or he gets caught running from the scene of his crime? Nice try.
….what?
I see the liberal among us are once again bringing up the talking point issues on the topic:
Wealth disparity & Race
So, basically – the underlying message is that the legal system is unfair because of the rich and bigoted.
Ergo – the White Man. How refreshing.
No the best example. Jesus’ death was prophetic in nature. He is the Savior of the world. That is why He was sent.
“First, we should note that much of the evidence for discrimination is circumstantial. Just because there is a higher percentage of a particular ethnic group does not, in and of itself, constitute discrimination. A high percentage of whites playing professional ice hockey or a high percentage of blacks playing professional basketball does not necessarily mean that discrimination has taken place. We need to look beneath the allegation and see if true discrimination is taking place.
Second, we can and should acknowledge that some discrimination does take place in the criminal justice system. Discrimination takes place not only on the basis of race, but on the basis of wealth. Wealthy defendants can hire a battery of legal experts to defend themselves, while poor defendants must relay on a court- appointed public attorney.
Even if we acknowledge that there is some evidence of discrimination in the criminal justice system, does it likewise hold that there is discrimination with regard to capital punishment?
But even if we find evidence for discrimination in the criminal justice system, notice that this is not really an argument against capital punishment. It is a compelling argument for reform of the criminal justice system. It is an argument for implementing capital punishment carefully.
But discrimination in the criminal justice system is not truly an argument against capital punishment. At its best, it is an argument for its careful implementation.”
Sounds like an argument for abstinence to me.
‘Cause everybody know a woman with a fetus night give birth to an ape.
Common MTNEER, get with the program.
Tim Tebow was supposed to be aborted. Thank GOD his mom didn’t see him as a zygote or some blob of jelly that couldn’t survive on his own. He is doing a bang up job! Her mistake.
Funny – I thought libs were against abstinence thinking…..
jrlingreenbay,
Your one comment is to play the victim card? There are much better arguments for the death penalty then “White Man’s Burden”.
Good LORD. I can’t type when a troll ticks me off. I think you all get my drift on that first line!
Sorry, but it is a pretty safe bet that once said murderer is chlorinated out of the gene pool, that he would pretty much be headed straight for the fire of Hell. TO compare that to Islam is a stretch. A loooooooong stretch. A stretch that makes you sound like we should just let all criminals roam freely ad go without punishment at all, for otherwise we might end up looking like uvulating freaks chipping off heads and trying for ugly women in the after-life.
Try to gain control of your analogies.
Tim Tebow was supposed to be aborted? How do someone supposed to get aborted?
It’s not arbitrary, silly. It’ science. Human beings, even murderers, typically have lungs. The same can not be said for fetuses.
Whatever, this is way off thread. I promise that I will engage in this debate when it comes up.
RetFireman,
No, the comparison of punishing in the name of God is apt. It may not be what you meant, as 30pcs said, but its definitely what you said.
And yes, because I don’t think we should punish people for offenses to God, I think that we should let all criminals go freely with no punishment at all. Because that’s our only options.
He crawled his way back in:)
Therein lies our disagreement. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not my approach.
That’s rich. Have to leave it at that.
Note to New Jersey:
Stop voting for Democrats!
There I fixed it for ya!
Another idiot that has no clue as to the scriptures or the prophesies or as to what would have happened had this NOT occurred. BUT…considering the source and the troll tht is writing it, it is no wonder the idiotic fool doesn’t understand why this had to happen. Let me see if I can dumb it down enough for little troll brains to understand.
Ok little troll man. Had Christ not suffered , been persecuted under the crowds, Judas, Pilate, the Priests and all the rest, been tortured, flogged, humiliated, and all the rest that happened to him, been placed with a crown of thorns upon his head, lead down the Villa de la Rosa with a tree on his shoulder, taken to Calvary where he was nailed to said tree/cross and hung there for three hours and further tormented by onlookers, another criminal who was also being crucified, had his clothing divied up by the guards etc. and everything else that happened until he offered up his soul to God wth a thunderous clap and lighting, and all that happened along with it, sending his soul into Hell for a time and everything else and rising from the dead, the Gates of Heaven would have remained closed and our sins would have remained unforgiven.
Now, I would have thought you would have known all that. What with being such a learned person and all. See, you can go on and on about how eeeeeevil the Jews were for killing Christ and how had there not been Capital Punishment back ten, Jesus would have never died, but then the prophesies would not have been fulfilled, Heaven would have remained shut, sin would not be forgiven and we would all be screwed.
Therefore, thank you for once again showing the class that you and the rest of the trolls here know just about diddly squat about what you are talking about, that you have again proven me correct when you drag out some over used stanzas and phrases you hear about such as “turn the other cheek” which do not apply and are taken completely out of context in this case. You simply have no clue about Theology nor of Biblical studies, so please, stop trying to use it in the argument agaist Capital Punishmet, for it only further makes you look more like an idiot than you already do.
If you are against it, fine, but try using tools you know something about, not things that you don’t.
Now go back under your bridge, look up something else and try again. Trip trap, trip trap.
Did you watch the program for the Heisman Trophy? Google it and you will know.
Great story BTW.
Yes, some children are “supposed” to be aborted. My wife suffered all kinds of abuse because she was “supposed” to abort one of her daughters. My wife was cruel… for even thinking about bringing a baby with all kinds of “physical abnormalities” into this world.
Well, that baby is one of the most beautiful woman on the planet and has zero defects and she made me a proud Grand-dude last month.