Benazir Bhutto assassinated
Update Dec. 28, 10:30am. Bhutto buried.
Update 3:20pm. Photos of Bhutto’s coffin leaving a Rawalpindi hospital.
Update 2:30pm. Tough talk and a reality check from Andy McCarthy…
A recent CNN poll showed that 46 percent of Pakistanis approve of Osama bin Laden. Aspirants to the American presidency should hope to score so highly in the United States. In Pakistan, though, the al-Qaeda emir easily beat out that country’s current president, Pervez Musharraf, who polled at 38 percent.
President George Bush, the face of a campaign to bring democracy — or, at least, some form of sharia-lite that might pass for democracy — to the Islamic world, registered nine percent. Nine!
If you want to know what to make of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto’s murder today in Pakistan, ponder that.
There is the Pakistan of our fantasy. The burgeoning democracy in whose vanguard are judges and lawyers and human rights activists using the “rule of law” as a cudgel to bring down a military junta. In the fantasy, Bhutto, an attractive, American-educated socialist whose prominent family made common cause with Soviets and whose tenures were rife with corruption, was somehow the second coming of James Madison.
Then there is the real Pakistan: an enemy of the United States and the West.
Update: Video - President Bush condemns the murder.
Rather than blather about bringing the killers to “justice,” Wretchard at the Belmont Club asks what died with Bhutto:
Political murder kills not only the candidates, but the process to which they belong. Pakistani politics might not miss Benazir Bhutto as an individual, but it will surely want for the elections in general.
Elections have rarely been able in and of themselves to bring about stable democratic rule. Normally things are the other way round. It is the existence of the elements of democracy that have brought elections into existence. Whether those elements now exist in Pakistan is the question…The next few days will show whether the Pakistani Army — for it will surely not be the Taliban — can rededicate itself to electoral democracy. Pakistan needs its George Washington. Unfortunately it only has its Pervez Musharraf.
Update 10:48am: Naturally, the tinfoil hatters on the Left are out in full force.
Update 10:15am: The US presidential candidates are all angling to look presidential in the aftermath of the assassination. Mitt Romney gave a brief statement televised on Fox, condemning “global, violent, radical jihadism.” Huckabee and McCain have issued statements. So has Giuliani: “The assassination of Benazir Bhutto is a tragic event for Pakistan and for democracy in Pakistan,” he said in a statement. “Her murderers must be brought to justice and Pakistan must continue the path back to democracy and the rule of law. Her death is a reminder that terrorism anywhere — whether in New York, London, Tel-Aviv, or Rawalpindi — is an enemy of freedom. We must redouble our efforts to win the terrorists’ war on us.”
President Bush is scheduled to make a statement sometime in the hour.
Update: DAWN has constant updates. Police have fired tear gas on protesters in Peshawar.
Update: One report says al Qaeda is claiming credit…
A spokesperson for the al-Qaeda terrorist network has claimed responsibility for the death on Thursday of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto.
“We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat [the] mujahadeen,” Al-Qaeda’s commander and main spokesperson Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location, speaking in faltering English. Al-Yazid is the main al-Qaeda commander in Afghanistan.
It is believed that the decision to kill Bhutto, who is the leader of the opposition Pakistan People’s Party (PPP), was made by al-Qaeda No. 2, the Egyptian doctor, Ayman al-Zawahiri in October.
Death squads were allegedly constituted for the mission and ultimately one cell comprising a defunct Lashkar-i-Jhangvi’s Punjabi volunteer succeeded in killing Bhutto.
Update: Allah points to graphic photos and video of the assassination scene, including this one taken just seconds before she was shot as she stands in an open vehicle campaigning. More here.
And here’s a rundown from October of some of Bhutto’s enemies:
• Taliban fighters and other Islamic extremists who resent a woman who wants to keep religion out of government and who supports the U.S. war on terror. Bhutto inflamed the militants recently when she said she might allow U.S. forces onto Pakistani soil to hunt Taliban and al-Qaeda forces hiding along the rugged Afghan-Pakistani border. The Taliban threatened to greet her with suicide bombers — but denied responsibility for the bloodshed in Karachi.
• Militant supporters of her estranged brother Murtaza, who was gunned down by police in 1996 during Benazir’s second term as prime minister. Murtaza had emerged as a key critic of her regime and head of an armed left-wing Peoples Party splinter group. “He had die-hard supporters who blame her for his death,” Sehgal says.
• Members of the military establishment who undermined her two governments and who three decades ago overthrew and executed her father, the charismatic Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.
More on Bhutto’s enemies.
***
They tried and failed when she returned to Pakistan in October. They tried and failed with a baby suicide bomber. Yesterday, they stopped a 15-year-old with a bomb packed full of nails trying to kill her. Today, they succeeded. Dammit, dammit, dammit:
Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto was assassinated Thursday in a suicide bombing that also killed at least 20 others at a campaign rally, a party aide and a military official said.
“At 6:16 p.m. she expired,” said Wasif Ali Khan, a member of Bhutto’s party who was at Rawalpindi General Hospital where she was taken after the attack.
A senior military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment, confirmed that Bhutto had died.
Her supporters at the hospital began chanting “Dog, Musharraf, dog,” referring to Pakistan’s president Pervez Musharraf. Some of them smashed the glass door at the main entrance of the emergency unit, others burst into tears.
Some reports say Bhutto appeared to have been shot–suffering bullet wounds to the neck or head.
According to a Fox News correspondent in Pakistan, the shots were fired immediately before the blast.
Residents of Bhutto’s hometown have gone on a “rampage.”
Now: WWMD?
What will Musharraf do?
***
Previous:
Nov. 9 - Reports: Benazir Bhutto placed under house arrest
Nov. 4 - The train wreck in Pakistan
Oct. 18 - Bloody (un)welcome: Assassination attempt on Bhutto
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It is a horrifying reality that many people in this world believe murder is the way to deal with a difference of opinion.
This is a sad day for Pakistan.
This is an even sadder for Democracy. Western civilization just lost a good friend and ally.
It will take a long time for Pakistan to find another leader as selfless as Mrs Bhutto. We can only hope some good comes from this, perhaps in the way Iraqis turned on Al Queda after years of butchery. Rest in peace.
They just kept on coming after her. It was a matter of time. A truly courageous person was lost today. The terrorists finally got the idea to go to the one place we can’t invade and can’t rely on the government to keep control of. They got what they wanted and now we have who knows what kind of bloody aftermath to expect.
Took longer than I exspected, frankly. I’d thought she’d die while under house arrest…
Go with God, Benazir Shutto…
Bhutto…
Coffee, STAT!
These are the same people that some in this country feel that we can talk things out with. This is their idea of political discussion. Pakistan has lost a great citizen.
This is a terrible tragedy.
God shed his grace on the peace-loving people of Pakistan. May he give them strength and protect them from their enemies.
So, who’s going to claim responsibility? And if it’s the Talibanistas, how much longer does Musharraf have before they get him?
Sorry for Mr. Bhutto and family, but I’m not surprised at this.
Things are about to get very exciting, and not in a good way. We still don’t know which side of the fence Musharraf will come down on (that is, if he’s still on that fence).
A very sad day for democracy.
May God the Father Almighty rest her Soul and comfort her family.
Pray for Pakistan. The next few weeks will be a living hell there.
As for what Musharraf will do, it depends on whether he and his boys had a hand in this.
If they didn’t, Waziristan is going to be squeezed like an oversized pimple.
If they did, I don’t even want to think of the consequences.
FOX just said she was killed with an AK-47 before the bomber blew himself up. How does someone carry around an AK-47 without being noticed and stopped? It’s insane.
This really makes me feel sick.
So the Christian right is the supposed moral equivalent of these assassins? We’ll probably see any condemnation of this on the left accompanied by a denunciation of all religious extremism. (i.e. people that take their faith seriously)
And not all of them are in foreign countries. Unfortunately, we are about to find out the truth behind the saying, “things are never so bad that they can’t get a little worse.”
“It will take a long time for Pakistan to find another leader as selfless as Mrs Bhutto.”
Go Fish, if by “selfless” you mean “corrupt, venal and hypocritical” then you’re right.
Bhutto, for all her rhetoric, was a member of Pakistan’s high society, wealthy beyond the dreams of the people she supposedly cared about. Ghandi she was not.
You can ask the people in my office, I basically gave Bhutto till January before either Musharaf or the Jihadists got to her. It seems that I was all too correct in my analysis. The 2nd half of my analysis now awaits: It will get worse now in Pakistan. Bhutto’s replacement in the Pakistan People’s Party is not nearly as capable as she was. Musharraf will be forced (again) to declare a state of emergency. Elections scheduled for January will be postponed or cancelled, further accelarating unrest. Be very surprised if Musharraf lasts till June 08. Military takeover very possible, and insurrection in the Northwest Territories will get worse.
As for who killed her, I would not be too fast to blame the Jihadists or Al Queda. There were people in the government and military (if not Musharraf himself) who wanted her gone. Best to wait a bit before blaming specific targets.
And before anyone reacts with the “how callous can you be, etc.”, I do feel bad that she’s dead. But the analysis of the situation is what it is. Its not right that the only thing her killers could do was blow her up. They couldn’t talk to her, face her with valid arguments, and that is why eventually the Jihadists will fail. They have no ideas that the common citizen (Muslim or not) can support as being “good” for their children. They can kill, but they cannot create. Remember that and we will win in the end.
rworks
24 yrs USAF Intel (ret)
I hope that this finally gives the government the spine needed to go into the Northwest Frontier Provinces and Waziristan and flatten those evil places to the ground - the lawless home of the madrasas and jihadism.
Look for Pakistan to begin its implosion. This has happened before. Assassinate the opposition only to watch it grow, then win.
Think Philippines. Think Marcos vs. Aquino.
Let’s hope Pakistan — and the overall region — recovers quickly and properly.
Another “moderate muslim” pays the price for trying make a difference.
I’m truly surprised she made it this long.
May her soul go with God, and she rest in true peace.
This is a direct result of Musharraf’s inablity or refusal to eliminate radical Islam in Pakistan, He has let the situation spin out of control and this is the result. I like Musharraf but much like many political figure’s he has been thinking of his own power and prosperity. Bhutto would have been the balance to Musharraf’s government and possibly would have defeated him. A sad day for democracy in Pakistan.
As with all tragedies, this may be an opening for positive action. Whether Mushy is behind this or just a bystander, this assassination could give him justification to wage all out war on the lawless tribal areas, Taliban strongholds and radical islamist. Civil war may come to Pakistan. The only way out favorable to the West would be to neutralize those who wish to impose sharia law.
I am grief stricken. What an honorable person. Some of our politicians could learn a thing or
twothousand from her. RIPPervez may not have pulled the trigger but he sure didn’t do much to prevent it either. I believe that this will come back to AQ.
Now, the problem becomes how do we prevent AQ and the Taliban from taking over and acquiring the nuclear arsenal. I’m sorry that Ms. Bhutto did not survive and I respect her bravery, but this was inevitable.
Be afraid, be very afraid. Strong action is needed to keep us safe now, more than ever. God bless America.
This is terrible. She worked hard to reform a country full of misogynist, Islamofascist miscreants. Pakistan has formented terrorist scumbags and extremists for years. She knew her life was in constant danger, but returned to her home and courageously stood up to subhuman filth. For her efforts to bring democracy to Pakistan, she was rewarded with murder.
To be sure, the Musharraf regime will blame the United States for brokering an agreement to let her back into Pakistan, and the moonbats on the Left will blame President Bush because everything is his fault, from their lousy childhoods to their miserable worthless adult lives.
Expect a lot of rioting and more bombs. It won’t stop until all the muslim extremist pigs are dead, which means it won’t be any time soon.
Musharraf is probably glad that someone finally got to her. She was the biggest threat to the oppressive, corrupt regime. No one has yet claimed responsibility for this atrocity, but Musharraf, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda head up the list.
You mean WWMD, right?
We should find out what the foreign policy expert Rsie Odonnell thinks should be done here. No doubt the first thing is to blame America for this.
A voice in the wilderness…a very brave woman, of outstanding physical and moral courage, she will be missed.
And instead of living a soft life enjoying that wealth she persisted in a public life that she knew could get her killed. Sounds pretty selfless to me. In fact I feel pretty safe predicting that it was a lot more selfless and courageous than the life you’ve lived.
Memo to the American Left: this is what “stifling of dissent” really looks like.
Score one for the bad guys.
The bad news this morning is the assassination of a woman of courage in Pakistan, The Freedom Fighter Benazir Bhutto, whose “great crime” was a burning desire to bring liberty and justice to her country. As I type these lines I’m watching Fox News coverage in Pakistan and the mobs are running wild looking for revenge. I am reminded of that scene in Shakespeare’s JULIUS CAESAR when the Roman mob runs amok against Caesar’s assassins who flee Rome.
The next scene may be civil war in Pakistan.
Into your hands do we commit her spirit, oh God.
AKI is reporting Al Qaeda is taking credit.
Democracy - Islam
Oil - Water
It’s futile
After 1300 years, you’d think we’dve figured that out.
[sigh]
I just read the NYT coverage of the assassination, and they managed to get a number of digs in — moments after Benazir Bhutto’s death. I wonder what is wrong with those people. What can they be thinking?
Say what you may but Bhutto is a true Martyr and I hope that this assassination and the recent Mosque bombings will cause the ordinary people to turn on the killers as the people of Iraq are doing
Just the other day, one of FOX New’s military folks (The really old guy, I’m very sorry I can’t recall his name) said that we lacked the will to ignore Pakistan’s refusal to allow our forces to follow AQ across the boarder.
I think now Musharraf might have a hard time telling us we can’t cross. He might have too much pressure to allow us freer movement.
If that’s the case, AQ has once again screwed a pooch that did NOT need screwing…
I have said it before, everything starts in Pakistan for example, the London, Bombers. If this is Alqaeda they start with an assasination, then there is are huge multiple attacks on a Western interest.
If asked, Musharraf, refers to some of the Taliban as Pashtuns, he doesn’t even use the same terminology as everyone else concerned about their resurgence. I feel Musharraf is more interested in maintaining power, then fighting terrorist in fact, I think he uses the War on Terror as leverage with the West.
It took Christians that long too. America was really the first modern democracy with a majority Christian population and we’re still relatively young.
Don’t give up hope. That’s all too easy in the face of this terrible news.
I admit I felt this was inevitable but it’s startling all the same.
God bless her as her soul can now move on. She did what she felt is right, now the world has to deal with her killers.
What a tragedy. My heart fell when I read the news. Definitely tough times ahead for Pakistan. Let this be a warning to the Lefties here at home about the reality of the enemy they seem to overlook and underestimate on an almost daily basis.
WWMD, indeed…
RUsty’s got a point.
CHristians had our uber-violent period too folks. Crusades, the Inquisition…
Islam is about as old as christianity was at those periods…
This is just worse because we now have bombs and guns. It’s a growing spurt. In a couple generations I would expect it to all settle down.
Not that we shouldn’t fight until then, mind you. Letting them play without fighting back would be silly…
Would be real interesting if things turn out that way. Al Qaeda does have a history of pushing the envelope.
And I quote:
“Fundamentalist Christianity is just as bad as fundamental Islam.”
Rosie O’Donnell
Well, not any more it isn’t…
But back in the day, it was pretty damn nasty…
Well once again ‘the bumper sticker’ became a reality - democraps hustling to get a piece of this - CNN reciting a litany of involvements by PIAPS, Obama and Richardson - guess Edwards gets thrown under the bus here.
The existence of the safe zone in northeast pakistan is a cancer and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
O’Reilly had on Jeanne Wolf last week and he was discussing the war on terror. Wolf said she and much of Hollywood thought the war should be fought with words not as it is now. Words. How utterly insane to think that the brutality such as we have seen today can be fought with only words.
If this is what Dems and the looney left think will beat these Islamic butchers, God help us all.
The violence of Christianity of long ago changed because Christians would not accept the brutality and rose up against it. It was because of them that change came. Until the moderates of Islam, if there are any, do likewise and rise up against the hideous brutality of Islam today, the bloody violence will continue. Right now, the silence from the so-called sane Muslims is deafening.
I wanna hear Fred Thompson’s take on this…
It also helps to another continent to run off to. Leading by example is a lot easier when your enemies are an ocean away.
Well, her supporters are rioting. That doesn’t seem very silent to me.
You totally missed my point or are deliberatly misreprsenting what I said.
Rioting is not a sane counter to the current violence and murder coming in the name of Islam. That you can’t see the difference is no surprise to me.
I can here John Mc Cain now. “Please Pakistan, dont waterboard the terrorists.”
It’s not as if this is just a phase. Islam is the violent religion of a violent people, and has been since inception. They are not going to be “modernized” out of their violence - modern Western culture is the current specific reason for it. And you should know that the Crusades came about as a result of the invasion of the Holy Land by Arabs, not the other way around.
And Queen Hillary, as we speak, is having her staff write a statement that will make her the “American Benazir” — a brave woman trying to stare down misogyny for the noble goal of…political power. Wait for the comparisons…. It will be most nauseating. (I wonder, will they also compare the corruption in the two families, Bhutto and Clinton?)
All,
http://chickaboomer.blogspot.com/2007/12/pakisham.html
From someone who has study Pakistan.
sorry studied.
Comparing Christianity’s violence and Islam’s, implying that religions (like teenagers) can only be expected to have a violent phase doesn’t really hold water.
First, during the times of the Crusades and the Inquisition the world in general was a brutal, nasty place. Christianity may not have risen above the violence, but neither did it sink below societal norms.
In the 21st Century people should know better. They have access to information and legal systems that would allow them to settle their differences like civilized human beings. Instead, they choose to be butchers. They choose to be evil.
Musharraf was behind this 100%. He has done everything he could to stay in power over the past year. Why allow an election to take place and jeopardize his authority there? Think Lebanon with the Syrian assassinations a couple years ago.
Funny how this guy didn’t consider the MILITARY GENERAL OF PAKISTAN (Musharraf) as someone who ‘vowed to defeat the mujahadeen’. Isn’t Bush’s line, you are for us or against us? Musharraf was supposed to be ‘for us’. It speaks volumes that he considered this person more dangerous than Musharraf. We should have treated Pakistan like Afghanistan and Iraq from the word ‘go’. We need to get with India to join forces and clean house in Pakistan. The longer we wait, the more difficult it will be. . . and more bloodshed.
The Aftermath.
The only two leaders left in Pakistan are Nawaz Shereif and former Supreme Court Chief Justice Ifthekar Choudary
Those who know the history of Pakistan will remember that it was during Nawaz Shereif’s rule when Musharraf took over the country in a military coup to become its chief executive. No way will Musharraf will allow Nawaz to gain prominence.
The Chief Justice has a open grudge against the President owing to his rulings against Musharraf and his subsequent removal as chief Justice and house arrest.
Musharraf imposed and repealed emergency and he will have all the temerity and tenacity to say “See, I told you so, now look what has happened”. The only way to salvage what is left of the country after this bloddy mess is to impose emergency again.
Remember Pakistan is a nuclear nation. Musharraf has put in strict control over Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal and assured the US the it will not get into the hands of AQ. He will always use this threat to win US and the west.
Also, the only way to unite Pakistan is to inflame anti India sentiments. That has been the sole factor uniting the geographically contiguous, culturally, ethnically diverse provinces that have become to form Pakistan.
The result of this in the near future will be more insecurity in South Asia and more blood shed in India.
And the modern world isn’t?
Lynchings of the early 1900’s, rampant abortion, ethnic cleansing in places like Darfur, school shootings…
The world is alway a brutal place…
Way too much violence.
katieanne said:
This is all about power. The islamofascists are all about power. They bend the religion so that they are in supreme control of their subjects lives. Any challenge must be literally killed off. I mean, any ‘religion’ that puts out a death warrant if you leave the religion tells you all you need to know.
She’ll probably come out and talk about Bush’s failed foreign policies, and how she would’ve prevented this whole thing in the first place.
She’s “experienced” remember?
Interesting times ahead. If Pakistan slips into chaos, unrest will spread to India. At the other end of the band, Turkey has seemed a bit shaky and vulnerable recently. Meanwhile to the north there are a bunch of little known, somewhat Muslim countries that aren’t being held down by the Soviet Union anymore.
The Assassins’ War has already begun.
The bottom line:
Islamic Terrorism is one step closer to Nuclear Weapons.
tick…tick…tick…
With all her flaws, the lady had a set on her and was very courageous. She put herself at grave risk for what she truly believed in. Meanwhile islamotrashwussOsama continues to hide in his cave. I’m kind of surprised Mushariff is still around in one piece and also that the terrorists haven’t managed anything against Western leaders.
I don’t want this to become a Christianity v. Islam debate. I made the point about Christianity because someone said that Islam and democracy were like oil and water. Which at one point was true for Christians as well. And in dealing with such a horrible tragedy, it doesn’t help to lose hope. This is a huge setback, but it’s not an endgame.
Why isn’t it? When you live in a country with a sham government and your leader is assassinated by her opponents (either ideological or political), what do you have left? I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying it’s a response from the people you claim are being silent. Sometimes disobedience is necessary.
Pakistan already has them.
You’re missing my point, perhaps willfully. The reason that shootings, lynchings and Darfur make news today is because that is not the way things usually are. Those are exceptions… not rare enough, granted, but exceptions nonetheless.
In the world today there are entire continents where rule of law and respect for individual rights is the norm. Where true starvation is unheard of. Where the government lacks the authority to put your eye out for missing a tax payment. There was no so such place during the Middle Ages. And so the violence committed in Christ’s name was not peculiar to Christianity. It was normal behavior for the times.
Islam today doesn’t even have that much of an excuse. Islam in today’s world is a uniquely violent cult, distinguished by its inability to peacefully coexist with anyone.
Apparently there were attacks on some of the guy Musharraf ousted at the same time Bhutto was killed.
Strong elements of the Pakistani intellegence service, the ISI have been pro Taliban and Al Quaeda from the beginning. They helped set up the mujahedeen in the Soviet-Afghan war.
It may be quite wrong to blame Musharraf for Bhuto’s asassination. He has much to lose in the resulting chaos. I don’t defend him, but I don’t condemn him out of hand either.
Ok, if AQ is taking credit for this, won’t this cause the Pakistani’s to unite against AQ? Seems to me that had Musharraf(sp) been killed instead, that assassination might have had more of a splintering effect.
No mention in any of the 71 comments I read ahead of this about US forces which are “assisting” Pakisani security of their nukes… a prayer for them is in order, dontcha’ think?
Regarding my comment #72… I just heard that Bhutto was very pro-West. Apparently I just don’t understand the situation. Sorry.
Very worrisome to put it mildly. That much I do know!
MM was right, from this link:
The left just can’t help themselves. This was Bush’s fault.
They really need to give it a rest. It’s getting old.
I wonder if these two events are related. the taliban and alqaeda are drug dealers, thugs.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071227/ts_nm/afghan_expulsion_dc_7;_ylt=AvaTWKTiLhJ6.hEFrqKtuHcE1vAI
#71, #72
I think Musharraf is doing the best with the hand given him. Something like 48% of Pakistanis actually are supportive of Al Qaeda and the Taliban on some level. So why would that large segment be hissed off if those terrorists killed Bhutto. It sure seems easy to get close to the leaders over and there and I believe Musharraf himself has survived numerous plots and attempts.
Thank God that Bush has rounded up so many of the rabble dissenters here and put them in internment camps. So many DUers, Kos Kids, Code Pinkers and moron.org functionaries have been silenced. I expect that the Hollywood traitors will be rounded up soon.
Let’s make that link theme-friendly.
So did America.
And re the Bush-bashing…the president’s alliance with terrorist coddling countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in the “War on Terror” has always been controversial and perhaps (probably) foolhardy. When things go wrong in countries that have the president’s support, people should be upset.
Rudy “Brought to Justice” Guiliani, ha. Saber rattling makes the hawks salivate.
Is this a pretext to another invasion and bombing (unstable nuclear Middle Eastern country on verge of collapse requiring preemptive strike to quell threat of further destabilization efforts launched by Iran)?
Thank you Steveegg,
I don’t want to call what happened to Bhutto a distraction but people in this part of the world play a whole different kind of political game, then the west. When your looking in one spot at a huge tradgedy, something else is going on unnoticed under everyone’s noses. The MSM gets manipulated all the time.
#69:
On December 27th, 2007 at 11:02 am, James Felix said:
“…You’re missing my point, perhaps willfully. The reason that shootings, lynchings and Darfur make news today is because that is not the way things usually are. Those are exceptions… not rare enough, granted, but exceptions nonetheless.
In the world today there are entire continents where rule of law and respect for individual rights is the norm. Where true starvation is unheard of. Where the government lacks the authority to put your eye out for missing a tax payment. There was no so such place during the Middle Ages. And so the violence committed in Christ’s name was not peculiar to Christianity. It was normal behavior for the times.
Islam today doesn’t even have that much of an excuse. Islam in today’s world is a uniquely violent cult, distinguished by its inability to peacefully coexist with anyone.”
Thank you, for beating me to it, and finally stating what you did.
You are quite correct.
It didn’t take long for this thread to bring up the old reliable “Christianity has been just as bad”, “Christianity had its own such violent times”, etc, etc.
This is merely more confusion and diversion, and obscures discussion of the key point: Christianity and Islam are NOT equivalent.
The violence you speak of centuries ago was not only normal behavior for the times, it was NOT what was taught (dogma-Greek; doctrine-Latin, both derived from the word “to teach”) by Christianity.
That violence went AGAINST the teachings of Christianity, even as it was Christians themselves who were being wrongly violent.
The Muslim jihadi loons, however, are practicing the true Islam, from what I’ve read by Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, and Bat Ye’or.
If Muslims were to reform Islam and practice “moderate” Islam (whatever the hell that is??), then they would cease to be Muslims.
To mix metaphors, when will someone finally shout out loud that the emperor has no clothes, and identify the 800-lb gorilla in our living room?
So I heard about this a couple hours ago and a coworker came by and said “George Bush isn’t going to leave ANYbody alive.”
I couldn’t resist. I asked what he thought Bush could possibly have had to do with that. Unfortunately all I got was a scoff and some vague assurances that all the problems in the middle-east were due to him.
I know, I know. I should expect this by now. But They’re so conversationally unassailable that I just want to explode, which of course make me seem like an idiot. Gah.
Has anybody had any (yes, I know two absolutes) success with this? I’m not trying to argue them in to the ground. But hell, it ought to be possible to drag them kicking and screaming to SOME cogent point.
I remember before 9/11 that the northern alliance leader, Ahmad Shah Massoud was assasinated, he was an enemy of the Taliban. These thugs terrorize the population, each time they take out a leader, then they follow up with some horrible mass attack. Musharraf thinks he can make treaties, with people he calls Pashtuns some of who we call Taliban. The EU and UN just had two of their people expelled from Afghanistan, for trying to meet with the Taliban, in the South…their argument they stated, tribal affairs were complicated. (doesn’t this sound like the same argument Musharraf has made about the Taliban- they are Pashtuns, it is complicated tribal issues) I will listen to the President of Afghanistan before all other players, in this part of the World, at least he has been consistent.
Well, the GOP candidates have spoken. and the Democratic candidates say….
—crickets chirping—
A sad event with world implications. No doubt Bhutto was brave to be there at all, and no doubt that Musharraf has the hardest job on the planet. We need to support him as the best bulwark against Islamacists that we have in Pakistan.
It is not in Musharraf’s interest to defeat the terrorist, he uses the war on terror as leverage with the West. Musharraf is trying to hold onto power, if there were no terrorist threat coming out of his country, how much longer would the USA be funneling billions of dollars into Pakistan in aid? They play a whole different kind of political game in the Middle East. Musharraf cares about what he has to do to stay in power.
Only among the moonbat left. America has had an alliance with Saudia Arabia and Pakistan which goes back long before Bush appeared on the scene. It is not “the presidents alliance”.
Of course the brilliant Kossacks, who want the US out of Iraq, favor us going to war with Pakistan.
This is going to end poorly. Oh my.
Liberalism is based on emotion and sentiment. You have as much chance of having a rational discussion with a jihadi.
Re # 17 - No, I meant selfless in the sense that despite her obvious faults, including a less than stellar record of governing when she was Prime Minister, Bhutto quite obviously placed Pakistan’s interests ahead of her own. Like her or not, she knew what she was getting herself into when she returned to Pakistan last fall. That takes guts, IMHO. The region needs more people like her.
#88 - Laree
I’m not so sure Musharraf is the enemy here. Haven’t some of the same extremists tried to whack him three or four times in the last couple of years? He may not be very effective in fighting terrorism, but that just makes him a crappy leader.
I would now liken his job as something similar to mating with a gorilla. You can’t stop until the gorilla wants to.
What makes you think it is different in the West?
It would be wise to know the history of Pakistan, Bhutto, The CIA, The ISI and the Taliban before commenting (and let’s not forget A.Q. Kahn).
J S Ragman
Musharraf tried to deal with those people in the bad lands of Pakistan what they call the lawless tribal area, it didn’t last and it didn’t end well. Sept 11th 2001, going on six years ago and the enemy is putting out youtube videos to answer questions, from where, and why do they feel so safe? Musharraf will use whatever he needs to stay in power, the reason Bhutto was back in Pakistan in the first place, was to put some political pressure on him to act!! If Musharraf is going to hold onto Power at all cost then this assassination helped him, not hurt him.
Bhutto’s number was eventually going to be up. Too many people were out to get her and frankly, her reappearance in Pakistan just caused a lot more trouble. Now that she’s dead, it will only get worse.
I would imagine Musharraf is smart enough to know if he had Bhutto whacked, he’s going to be hung out to dry by the State Department. This is why I don’t think he did it. It’s possible it’s someone associated with him taking matters into their own hands, but this was a martyrdom operation. Which is why I can believe Al Qaeda is telling the truth in claiming responsibility.
RUSTY…. Here’s a clue..
Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton, all had “alliances” with “terrorist coddling” Saudi Arabia…. So fricken what?!?
It don’t mean nuthin’!!! Even if you want to pretend it does!
The Saudi’s are playing all sides. The Chinese are playing all sides. The Euros are playing all sides. The Russians, the Cubans… etc, etc, etc… So fricken what?!?!
The US plays multiple sides too… Dig damned deal!! You do what ya gotta do!
It’s called reality!!!
Not leftwing, looney tune, troother, code pinko, BDS, Cindy Sheehan, democrat/republican fantasy of reality….
It’s black and white, actual factual, survival reality!
Go over to Pakistan, and parade your cute little liberal comebacks. Be sure to mix in some sincere hatred of America, too. Won’t get you nuthin’ but a severed head…. R.E.A.L.I.T.Y Baby!
It’s amazing how many ignorant people are lionizing this woman as some sort of saint. In fact, she was a defender of Palestinian homicide bombings. Now, she knows what it feels like. And Greenfairie is correct: She was simply a troublemaker and destabilizer of Pakistan. Her mistaken return to Pakistan was engineered by Bush in his latest “democracy” destabilization of the Mideast. I am amazed how many people who know so little about the real Benazir Bhutto–a Gulf-state puppet and terrorism supporter–are singing her praises. Learn the real truth and get a clue.
#98:
On December 27th, 2007 at 12:35 pm, radio relay said:
“…”
Correct.
As for the tired mantra…the U.S. helped create the Taliban (because we assisted them in fighting the Soviets): as you said, you do what you gotta do based on the best information available to you at the time.
Roosevelt and Chruchill allied with the barbaric Stalin against Hitler.
So, the U.S. and Britain are to be blamed for “creating” the problem that the Soviet Union posed?
What kind of non-thinking is that?
We now must look squarely at the facts on the ground and reevaluate or options. We inserted ourselves into that part of the world out of self-defense in response to 9/11. We deferred to Musharraf on the matter of hot pursuit. Do we know where Pakistan’s nukes are stored? With that country sliding into civil war, doesn’t hot pursuit of AQ and the Taliban become a necessity rather than an option?
Bhutto’s record notwithstanding, AQ assassinated a world leader for the purpose of creating chaos and undermining democracy in a nuclear-armed state. How many *more* reasons do we need to commit ourselves to AQ’s extermination? This isn’t rocket science.
#96 - Laree
Agreed. Those autonomous western border regions are clearly the host to these Islamofacist parasites.
Agreed. Bhutto’s death removes an immediate obstacle to Musharraf’s remaining in power.
I just think he’s in over his head, and can’t get enough allies in his own government to deal with the problem.
Yeah, I totally agree. But after 9/11, we decided to hitch our wagon to the country that provided most of the hijackers and a country where the people identify with the Taliban and al-Queda. Instead, we decide to invade a country with no ties to either.
How is that an unfair criticism?
Depending on a corrupt government like Pakistan was an error. Terrorists are coddled there and the people see our perceived meddling in their affairs and they identify with extremists.
It’s been a disaster and this assassination doesn’t make things any better.
#104
On December 27th, 2007 at 1:06 pm, Rusty said:
“Depending on a corrupt government like Pakistan was an error. Terrorists are coddled there and the people see our perceived meddling in their affairs and they identify with extremists.
It’s been a disaster and this assassination doesn’t make things any better.”
OK, then…What do YOU recommend the U.S. should do NOW? (Sorry, I don’t have italicizing and boldfacing capability.)
J.S Ragman,
If Bhutto was our plan A then we need to find out what plan B is?
The mantra in the MSM is that we cannot follow the Taliban or Alqaeda into Pakistan. The enemy is in Pakistan, obviously they can operate and attack at will. Musharraf is playing the odds if he is smart, he won’t be playing against the odds, the US won’t strike inside of Pakistan.
At the risk of sounding politically INcorrect…
You think you can escape the inevitable?
Let’s skip the formalities…
Islam is the problem…A liberal application of E=MC² is the solution.
“salivate” that, mpandt
Rusty,
Way back to the first gulf war, when we ran Saddam out of Kuwait, he called on terrorist all over the world to attack the US and any of our interest all over the World. Saddam paid sucide bombers families 25 thousand dollars everytime they blew up Israelis.
The people who attacked us on 9-11 were Sunnis we took out the Sunni Strongman “Saddam” since then Saudi Arabia has had to worry about the Persians-Iranians dominating the Middle East. The blance of power in the region has shifted away from Sunni to Shia…THE SUNNIS attacked us.
Those of you talking about the Crusades please go look up the Battle of Tours first……The Crusades were payback!
Wow Debbie. Why didn’t you just off her yourself?
Ladies and gentlemen…I GIVE YOU….THE RELIGION OF PEACE!!!! And just two dats after one of the holiest days on the Christian calendar that marks and represents peace, goodwill and everything else that AQ and the brand of Islam it brings to the world opposes.
Is there a single person ANYWHERE that can honestly say they are surprised by anything other than that it took them so long?
Oh, that’s right…this is just a “bumbper-sticker war”, right? This is all just made up by Bush and Cheney and all the other evil Neo-Cons in the Skull and Bones Evil Laboratory one night under a Full Moon with the lightning cracking over head. It was how the New World Order was going to take over the world, make it all up to get the world oil supplies, get into Iraq and all that other crap these conspiricy nut jobs spew and all the trolls on here talk about as the end all/be all to back up their arguments about…well anything.
Well just to have to describe the candidates as having to “seem Presidential” when speaking about this incident should speak volumnes to each and every one of you. If the person has to “appear” Presidential, then you just plain should not vote for them. If there is one person, one candidate who has stepped forward and demonstrated the cajones’ that it takes, to stand up to the media, the Liberals and the Islamic Jihadists and took this straight to them, then that should be your man. Don’t go for the act, go for the substance.
These images you are seeing in these bombings are not that far away. Ask anyone else here who has taken anti-terrorism classes…the cops, the firemen, the National Guard. Irag is a training ground for what will come here kids. Mark my words. Victory there does not mean an end to the WOT. This little firecracker going off in Pakistan today should make that very clear. Killing or catching UBL and ZAWAHIRI will not end it either, which is why Bush said he is not worried about them…and rightly so, It is the religion itself, not a few of it’s leaders, that one must worry about and deal with…and until the entire world finally understands this and deals with, reckons with and wins this in a final and complete way….there is no telling what will happen…nuth there are several prophesies from different sources that give soe ideas.
After 9/11 “we” did not decide to “hitch our wagon” to anything or anybody.
We had been allied with the Saudis long, long before 9/11. Since the days of the early twentieth century when Abdul Aziz Al Saud, forcefully united the various emirates of the Arabian Peninsula into a kingdom he named Saudia. Then developed the oil fields with Standard Oil.
And stop with the tired and disproven leftwing propaganda rant about Saddam having no ties to Al Queda. There was a frickin’ Al Qaeda training camp in Northern Iraq, before 9/11. Not to forget, as Laree pointed out… They are all stinking Sunnis!!!
FYI Pakistan, is also a Sunni nation, and please show me one nation in the middle east which is not corrupt? Should we just not deal with any of them, because we are such superior beings?
- Debbie Schlussel - thanks, learn or re-learn something everyday.
Lots of good points and let me chime in on a few:
a) For once, Rusty does have some good points to consider and that he’s not acting like a troll (yeah!)
b) xler8-good issue, but a good book to check out is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to the Crusades” and its very well written and is pretty consistent with some of my neutral minded Pol Science profs.
c) RetFireman #111-As usual your insight is tack on, and keep it up!
d) Laree-good grasp of international issues and being able to see the diffrences between shite/sunni’s.
May Benzir Bhutto rest in peace, and those that are responsible face a military op simuliar to the Sword of Gideon!
GSP
I thought the war on terror was just a bumper sticker?
Her decision to hold huge public rallies was suicidal folly. Even if her motives were pure as the driven snow (Thanks Debbie for pointing out they were not) her very predictable death has now made an unstable situation much, much worse. Steve Gilbert hit the nail on the head when he said: “And now all of Pakistan and our troops in the Middle East will pay the price for her weird vanity.” Dont forget, WW1 began with an assasination.
The US is worried about a nuclear armed Iran? Why? Pakistan is one heartbeat away from delivering nuclear weapons into the waiting hands of Islamofacists. Thank the Gods that India is also nuclear armed and stands ready to defend herself!
Relay #112 - one small correction. Please show me one country anywhere w/o corruption.
While certainly not perfect, Prime Minister Bhutto was a real hope for security and stability in the region. Unfortunately, her death will serve to embolden the radical practitioners of the Religion of Peace™. My condolences and sympathies to the people of Pakistan. It is a sad day for peace and civilization.
My favorite passages from Andrew McCarthy great piece.. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTExNmE0MzY3YjBlYWEwZDkzOThkMWJiM2JmZGQ2NDE “For the United States, the question is whether we learn nothing from repeated, inescapable lessons that placing democratization at the top of our foreign policy priorities is high-order folly.” AND..”The transformation from Islamic society to true democracy is a