Relative of murdered Dallas girls: “This was an honor killing;” father abused daughters
Funeral services–both Christian and Muslim–were held Saturday in Dallas for murdered teen sisters Sarah and Amina Yaser Said. Their father, wanted for capital murder in the case, remains on the loose. Dallas Morning News reports on family reaction–including remarks from the girls’ mother, brother, and great-aunt, who is convinced that the double slayings are honor killings and detailed the daughters’ abuse at the hands of the father:
Before the service, the girls’ mother and brother issued a public appeal for Mr. Said to surrender. Patricia Said said her husband needed to be brought to justice so that her “girls can rest in peace.” She said that she and her son would remain in hiding until her husband is captured.
“I just want him to pay for what he did to my girls,” Mrs. Said said.
Islam Said has previously disputed widespread rumors and media reports that his Muslim father’s religion may have been the reason for the killings. Some have speculated that the deaths may have been “honor killings,” a practice in which a man kills a female relative who he believes has somehow shamed the family.
Patricia Said mourned the loss of her daughters at a Baptist service Saturday at Rahma Funeral Home.
Irving police have said that they are exploring all possible motives for the slayings. Police have acknowledged that the family had some previous domestic problems.
Gail Gartrell, the sisters’ great-aunt, said Saturday that Mr. Said had physically abused the two girls for years. Around Christmas, the girls’ mother – Ms. Gartrell’s niece – had fled because of Mr. Said’s threats to kill the girls after he learned they had boyfriends, she said.
“She ran with them because she knew he would carry out the threat,” Ms. Gartrell said. “This was an honor killing.”
She said her niece returned after Mr. Said told her that he would move out so they could reconcile. Within a few days, she said, the girls were dead.
The Ft. Worth Star Telegram also reveals details about the missing father’s marriage to the girls’ mother. They married when she was 15 and he was 30:
Details emerged Thursday about the days leading up to the fatal shootings of the Lewisville teens, who were found Tuesday evening in a taxi that police believe was driven by their father.
Patricia Said and her daughters quit their jobs at a Kroger grocery store in Lewisville just before Christmas, a company spokesman said.
Patricia and Yaser Said were wed in February 1987 when she was 15 and he was 30, Tarrant County marriage records show. The two have had addresses in Euless, Bedford, Grand Prairie and Arlington, public records indicate.
Yaser Abdel Said filed a missing-person report Dec. 26. He hoped police would help track down his wife, according to a report by KDFW/Channel 4.
The incident marked one of the domestic problems that investigators believe may have led to the killings of Sarah and Amina Said.
Friends of the girls have said their father didn’t approve of them dating.
America’s Most Wanted spotlighted fugutive Said’s case. There’s also a $10,000 reward for info.
See what others have said
Note from Michelle: This section is for comments from michellemalkin.com's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that I agree with or endorse any particular comment just because I let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with my terms of use may lose his or her posting privilege.
Trackbacks
- Right Voices » Blog Archive » Honor Killings In America?
- Yaser Abdel Said, 50, Manhunt for Father Suspected of Killing Teen Daughters | Scared Monkeys
- Tel-Chai Nation
- Michelle Malkin » The Dallas honor killings revisited
- What kind of religion condones this? - Page 5 - TeakDoor.com - The Thailand Forum
They will probably find this guy in Mexico or Cairo.
May God rest the Souls of those two beautiful girls and comfort their mother.
I wonder if there is any worse fate in this world than to be born female into a muslim family? I can’t think of one.
This is an abhorrent act anywhere … but to be having it occur in this country is totally inexcusable …
Many of us here have said that the most probable reason for this act was an ROP induced “honor killing” … even though the son tried hard to deny that in the beginning … I can see how it may have been difficult for him to admit that it could have been the reason … it has to be hard to come to grips with your father killing your sisters …
Questions:
How come it appears that only women can bring shame on a family and never the men of a family?
Has anyone ever heard of a male family member being killed for causing a family “shame”?
Well, when they bring back this idiot, and find him guilty, we should allow the man his faith and not go against the so-called “separation of church and state.” Anyone got a sharp sword and a town square available?
I’ve said before I think the son was in denial. Let’s hope he denies his father’s murderous religion.
Here’s where my thirst for justice comes in. I’d love to see the police and FBI begin a systematic search of mosques looking for Said. Start with his local one; confiscate anything that might possibly be evidence, and detain and prosecute anyone who may have played a role in inspiring the killings or directly aided Said.
Then keep expanding until he’s found.
Desertlover,
The only cases of males being killed for bringing shame on the family that I’ve heard of is cases of homosexual males being killed. What a shame.
Come on NOW and Amnesty do you care? Or do you only care about middleage white women having the right for an abortion? Seems that is your only care doesn’t it? Everyone under the yoke of Islam is under tyranny.
But what was it we said? That this was an honor killing tied explicitly to the teachings of Islam? The same ones that make it acceptable for a 30-year-old man to marry a 15-year old daughter.
Do the math. If they were married in 1987 (20, almost 21 years ago) and the kids are age 19, 18, and 17 their mother had them at ages 17, 18, and 19.
Of course! They put out one or two press releases, but they can’t be bothered because somewhere in America a woman’s choosing to be a stay-at-home mother, or decided not to have an abortion…now those are cases of abuse that needs their full attention! Besides, it’s Islam’s “culture” to kill women and girls who “dishonor” the family, and treat the same as possessions, and who are we to say their culture is no better than ours? (Sarcasm off).
What would NOW do if the Muslims destroyed a abortion clinic? Would NOW condemn the act? My guess they would probably blame relgion and call for seperation of church and state.
Please, let me be clear at the outset, I am not apologizing or justifying this man’s heinous crimes.
I take issue with calling honor killings a part of the Islamic religion. That kind of talk undermines the real issue. Honor killings are part of the culture in many Muslim countries, but I don’t believe for one moment that the Koran or the religion supports this. It’s like saying that Baptists or the Catholic Church condones the slayings of abortion clinic doctors.
That isn’t to say that many Christians don’t feel that the slain deserve what they got. I’m sure many Muslims feel the same way over these girls. That’s a sad fact of sociological behavior among those misguided by their extreme upbringing.
And before this is all thrown back in my face about how Islam controls the law in those countries and they allow it to happen, let’s not forget that the Western world’s laws are filled with statutes that allow murders in fits of jealous rage to be treated differently than others. In our culture a “crime of passion” is just a more emotional name for “honor killing.” And that extends to more than just killing each other having sex with someone else, but also over personal insults and slights (more of a “personal honor killing.”)
It’s tough to separate the culture of Muslim nations from the religion of Islam, but we need to do so. We’re not going to eradicate the religion. It’s as if it is 600 to 700 years behind the development curve of Christianity. And a quick look back on Christianity’s record in the 14th and 15th centuries doesn’t look too good.
When morality is considered more important than human life, where is the problem? Where is the line drawn? These are not questions unique to Islam.
There is a fear among conservatives in Muslim countries that if the laws against honor killings are strictly enforced, then promiscuity will run rampant. I would think that after so much repression, that’s probably a valid concern (preacher’s kid syndrome, you know,) but maybe it isn’t. Maybe, it’s all just a smokescreen so that men can keep women under complete domination in these countries.
Religion is just a tool of a culture, not the other way around.
I inadvertantly omitted the word “for” in the 4th paragraph. We’re not “killing each other having sex…” we’re “killing each other for having sex…”
And if we aren’t questioning our own cultural norms and evaluating what makes them right versus another culture’s norms, then we’re really not thinking critically. It doesn’t mean that we have to change our opinions on the matter, but we probably need to question our opinions periodically to make sure we’re not making the same mistakes as the people we deride.
Rational thought is our only hope against irrational people and groups.
Like many others I am waiting for the liberal left female liberation organizations and mainstream media to condemn the atrocities being commited against muslim women and girls. Honor killing, female genital mutilation, beating, etc. The list goes on and on. And in their own words - all are perfectly acceptable and demanded according to their moral authority - the Koran.
The only “domestic” problem here is Islam. He married when he was 30 and his wife was 15. He abused his daughters for years. In other words, he was a practicing, devout Muslim because Mohammed did the same thing.
Doug, you are so wrong here and have been too indoctrinated in postmodernism, multiculturalism, and moral relativism at the expense of rational Western thought and analysis. Christ didn’t kill anybody, so the analogy makes no sense. Mohammed did marry a six-year-old, and therefore this abuse is an integral part of the religion.
Check out Robert Spencer’s The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam.
Meanwhile, back at the Pentagon our top military expert on Shariah, jihad and the coming Caliphate, Stephen Coughlin, has been fired after coming under attack from Muslims working within the Department of State who characterized his factual attempts at educating our military powers-that-be as hate-filled words of Christian zealotry.
For details see either Dianawest.net or Robert Spencer’s Jihadwatch.org.
DougT:
Read the Koran, and more specifically the Hadith - Mohammed’s teachings.
Not only does the Koran and Hadith (on SEVERAL occasions) call for the killing of “infidels” (non-Muslims), but the Hadith actually calls for the abuse of women and girls in a systematic manner.
Suffice to say - in Islam - you could not have saints like Hildegard of Bingen, Catherine of Siena and the like - nor could you have powerful women in roles of political persuasion. Look at what happened to Bhutto. It just doesn’t happen.
On our culture’s side, I have a very difficult time considering a “crime of passion” excusable. It isn’t. In the rarer instances where a criminal has a *true* mental/emotional illness, I understand the compassion.
I don’t know what faith traditions you are familiar with, but I do not know a single Catholic who would murder their daughter for crimes of immorality and consider it appropriate. Indeed, one of the fundamental teachings of the Church is that life - from conception to natural death - is sacred, and worth defending. Even the lives of those who may not be perfect (and no one is).
So that justifies murder? That somehow gives Muslims the trump card to engage in barbaric practices because teenage daughters *might* date?
I don’t think so. Nothing - I repeat, NOTHING - justifies shooting your teen daughters in cold blood.
I wish I had more time to expound on this, but I don’t. We’re delving into the teachings of Islam versus the teachings of pretty much every other religious tradition on the planet and that just isn’t something I can tackle right now.
Those are some fairly deep accusations about my indoctrination there Gabe.
I don’t recall invoking the personal behaviors of Jesus or Mohammed and the references are irrelevant to the discussion.
I’m gentle and kind, does that make me a devout Christian? No.
This guy killed his daughters, it appears. He should be found, tried and punished to the full extent of the law if convicted. There is nothing morally relative about that.
I’m curious where your rational and analytical Western mind leads you, Gabe. What is your proposed final solution to the “problem” of Islam?
Honor killing? Only a retrograde 6th century culture could possibly sanction this kind of barbarity.
Doug T does have a point that honor killings don’t have all that much to do with religion. However, the rest of his essay is dangerously incorrect. Without morality, life becomes cheap and expendable.
Morality is neither greater nor lesser than human life. It is a necessary part of existence.
It is true that Religion can be considered a tool. But to call it merely a tool is to totally misunderstand the essence of religion. And to call it a tool of a culture is to reduce it to an Aztec-like philosophy.
To imply that in the 14th and 15th centuries, official Christianity had serious problems overstates the problems dramatically. Sure there were problems, but most of the supposed problems were little more than propaganda (read up on the Catholic Inquisition if you don’t believe me. I’m not talking of the Spanish Inquisition here, which was far more political in nature).
That said, I actually live in Saudi Arabia. I can tell you from personal experience that the Saudi’s, by and large, admire and respect the Americans (yes, the also have Al Queda admirers too, but they are in the minority). They have a system of honor that they feel very strongly about. You never cross them in that. But that is tribal in nature and has little to do with Islam.
They do a lot which is officially not condoned (or even condemned) by their religion. This is accepted and the unofficial part of the Saudi’s life is the most important one.
One of the uber-liberal universities in our state - a tax payer funded university, I might add - has just introduced a new Arabic studies program into its curriculum; its purpose is to enlighten us “ignorant, ill-mannered” Westerners on the “gentilities” of the “peace-loving” Muslim culture. I wonder if “Honor Killings 101″ will be taught? Somehow I doubt!
This is the part that I noted:
Standard issue Islam. You lie to them to get them to return, then murder them.
And now, of course, we have to listen to the litany of excuses as to how it “isn’t Islam”, and “Islam is the religion of peace”, and all that other BS. It’s long past time we should be honest about Islam.
I hear you englishqueen01.
I wasn’t trying to justify or rationalize this guy’s actions.
However, I don’t believe this is about the basic teachings of Islam. Are we denying that wars and executions haven’t been performed in the name of Christianity? Were those somehow more righteous than those committed under the umbrella of Islam?
Logically, and I’m guessing not many people who comment here will care for the implications, all of these arguments about the nature and teachings of Islam, lead us to a couple of potential outcomes:
1) The complete and utter eradication of the Islamic faith. Uhm, yeah, right. This won’t happen.
2) The separation of church and state in Islamic countries. Stop the theocracies. Stop governments from wielding the power of religion. In the West, this took centuries. I think we’re in for the same kind of timeframe here. That doesn’t mean we don’t start the process now. We have and we should. But we have a long way to go.
3) I should add a 3rd alternate outcome: A worldwide Caliphate, where we’re all Muslim or paying a tax to keep our religion. Not going to happen either.
If there are other possibilities, I’d like to hear them.
I can’t comment on whether “honor killings” are part of a religious code of conduct because I do not have enough knowledge of the Islamic religion. I believe that it is more a tribal custom rather than religious.
However, DougT, the problems Christianity had in the 14th and 15th century were left in the 14th and 15th century. You can’t equate what some guy did last week and what some people do in the name of Allah with those 14th and 15th century issues.
jimyai
Thanks … But I was thinking that the homosexual issue was done through the Islamic courts rather than withing the family as “honor killings” … If it is also done by the family then that is still another knock on the so-called ROP …
Either way … it still appears there are a lot more ways a female can generate “shame” and be the victim of this barbaric scenario than a male …
Frumious Bandersnatch (geez, could your handle be longer?) that was an excellent retort.
I am oversimplifying the comparison of Christianity from a 600 years ago with Islam today.
I also totally ignored the implications of tribal norms on the culture.
The comment about morality vs life is well-received, too. I should have said, when we allow our punishments for immoral behavior to claim human life, where do we draw the line?
I think that line is clearly drawn in the laws of the nation in which you committed the crime.
I also don’t believe that this idiot’s murders of his daughters is part of an overall Jihadi plot. It’s a cultural thing to be sure, but it should be punished fully under US law.
Too bad the $10K reward is not for bringing him in dead-or-alive. I would love to catch him here in Idaho and if I had my choice for the price of a couple of rounds of 9mm I would save the taxpayers of Texas a lengthy court trial with imprisonment and donate the reward to any organization providing a safe haven for the women of Islam seeking a sane existence in this country.
I understand and appreciate that sentiment, Boomer. I don’t think he’ll be heading your way.
Vince, I agree with your comment about my remarks on Christianity and politics of 600 years ago. I was merely pointing out that religion can be abused for purposes well beyond it’s original intent. I didn’t mean to equate them.
I’m hoping that our great-great-great-great granchildren will one day have a similar conversation about how their version of extremists can’t be compared to the problems surrounding Islam in the 20th and 21st centuries. Let’s hope that they also say that those problems remained in those centuries. It is up to us to make sure that happens.
The questions remain though: What are the real goals in resolving the problem? How do we achieve them?
Doug T #10, “Religion is just a tool of a culture, not the other way around.”
I have always though so too, but it would take me 3 or 4 paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence.
The state of Texas does execute, & I can already see the left holding protests to stop his (sigh). I think this might just be the case that makes capital punishment an issue in the 08 election.
Doug, whatever attrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity is to a large extent irrelevant, although I do agree with the general premise that islam is several hundred years behind in its development. It’s like trying to convince your dad that you should have a car because every other guy your age does.
The problem is, the world can’t afford to wait. 15th century Christians couldn’t have established a world-wide church if they wanted to. 21st century muslims can.
As to one, since three is their goal, one must be an option on the table.
Two is obviously the most desirable, but it’s not going to happen as long as there are muslim apologists out there who seek to deny the nature of their religion.
You say three is not going to happen, and I agree. But the attempt, and it’s being made, has the potential to destroy the world.
Adoption, when these lost souls with there barbaric tendencies to degrade, abuse and kill they’re own daughters, why dont they put girls up for adoption the moment they are born? I’m guessing even the mothers know they would be better off. Give the woman of this sick cult a chance at a fulfilled and happy existence. Before I get blasted I realize this will never happen, but it should.
Re #21 On January 6th, 2008 at 9:55 am, DougT said:
“1) The complete and utter eradication of the Islamic faith. Uhm, yeah, right. This won’t happen.”
Let’s think about those sentences:
Some may disagree; but, I think this thread is creeping OT.
We in the West are under mortal, existential threat by insane radical Muslim killers.
How will we defend ourselves; and, how will we get rid of this problem?
Not tolerate it, but get rid of it.
Some may recoil in horror at thinking of the problem this way; but, this is the only way of thinking of the problem that will lead to its conclusive solution.
Arguing theoretical fine points, and wishing for ideal, imaginary, impossible, perfect utopian solutions; pointing to Christianity of five centuries ago; and talking endlessly, blah, blah, blah, while the crazies attack and kill, and slowly seep into the West, will get us no place, which is exactly what “utopia” means: literally, “no place”.
I don’t really care if this Muslim insanity is based in the Koran, the Sunna, or the Ahadith; or if it is based on the crazies’ depraved interpretation.
I just don’t care.
I don’t care, because it doesn’t matter.
The crazies are coming after us, whatever the details of how and why they are basing their jihad on Islam.
We don’t have centuries to wait for the “reinterpretation” of Islam…we’ll be dead long before then.
We can’t afford to wait for the so-called moderate Muslims to control the crazies - ain’t gonna happen.
Because the “moderates” are scared $h–less of the crazies; and, because the crazies’ actions and beliefs are based more on Islam’s writings and history than are the beliefs of the moderates.
If only ten percent of the world’s ~1.2 billion Muslims support the crazy jihadists, then where are the remaining 1.08 billion moderates?
What have they done?
What have they said?
How have they helped us?
…Anybody?
That’s 1.2 billion, with a “B”.
So, a comment here and there by a rare, moderate Muslim is even less than a drop in the ocean.
Besides, if Islam were ever to be reformed, it would cease to be Islam.
Unfortunately, my above comments seem to refer to the 800 pound gorilla in the room, that no one in authority seems to wants to acknowledge.
Let’s see those sentences again:
“1) The complete and utter eradication of the Islamic faith. Uhm, yeah, right. This won’t happen.”
Well, the truth is that we will have to be willing to kill as many of them as is necessary until they stop being a threat to us…period.
The alternative is the death of the West.
The jihadist loons do not want to reach accomodation with the West;
do not want to live side by side peacefully with the West in perfect harmony (sorry, can’t help remembering that dreadful 60s phrase);
do not want to reform, moderate, or modify their ideology.
And, the moderates we hear so much about (but see little or virtually no help nor action from, especially when their number of 1.08 BILLION is considered) either cannot help the West, or actually support (even if passively and tacitly) and approve of the jihadis.
It’s going to come down to kill, or be killed.
Will someone in authority in the West please finally shout out loud that the emperor has no clothes, that we are at war?!
At war…not at criminal proceedings - but, at war.
This will be a long struggle that must be approached the way Sean Connery’s character (in that otherwise awful movie The Untouchables) advises Elliott Ness on how to deal with the Mob
(somewhat paraphrased):
“He pulls out a knife, you pull out a gun;
He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send two of his to the morgue.”
In other words, proportional response would be the stupidest thing to do, and would just guarantee that this war would go on and on, and would never be won.
If the West is to survive, and win this war - this WAR - then there is going to be a lot of killing.
It’s them or us.
Their attacks on us are going to be ended only by overwhelming, devastating counterattacks upon them.
And, if untold numbers of moderates, who even if only passively are supporting (but nonetheless supporting) the jihadists, are among the casualties…well, God help me, but that will be part of the price of our struggle for survival.
It is time for these modereates; as well as the socialist, leftist fifth column in the West, to declare whose side they are on; and to lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Before anyone condemns me, let me ask you what you would say to God when asked why you did not defend, and prevent the deaths of, the hundreds of thousands, or millions, of Americans killed in future battles of this war; because you recoiled in horror from acknowledging and doing what was necessary to defend the West?
I’d rather answer to God for the consequences of my having tried to defend the West, rather than for the consequences of avoiding what was necessary for its defense.
Whew…sorry for the essay, folks.
Let’s not confuse an honor killing with manslaughter, specifically a murder in the “heat of passion”. In the lesser case of murder, there is no prior thought about killing; no premeditation. In an honor killing there is definitely a prior thought process: the family has been shamed, and the transgressor must pay. It is NOT an argument that gets out of hand, nor an act that occurs in the heat of passion, where no thought goes into the act.
In this case, which has all the characteristics of an homor killing, the wife and daughters were lured back to the home out of hiding. The daughters were found in the father’s cab about 20 miles from their home, shot dead (the fact that the father brought a handgun with him suggests prior planning, as does the location of the crime). And the place where the bodies were found presented a quick departure to the airport or to a location of a large muslim community.
This was no heat of passion crime. It was planned in advance. It was premeditated.
To compare an honor killing with a crime of passion is to ignore and cover up the real problem here. The western mind cannot fathom how a father can murder his daughters, because we not only place a high value on life but we also believe women are the equals of men.
We as a culture need to grasp the reality of the situation and stop making excuses or alibis for barbarism. Wake up America.
I think you’re right, brooklyn red. This man will be on death row by the summer if he’s caught. The shenanigans surrounding this will be monumental.
Radiojoe1470, I believe that the first alternative is not viable and is downright evil. I’ll let others make the connections on where this kind of thinking could lead. I, not so subtly, alluded to it in my response to Gabe.
The only thing I really challenge in what you said, is the phrase about “…deny(ing) the true nature of their religion.” My point is that the religion is dangerous when it is in the hands of those who wield political power. (And I know, I’m oversimplifying again. Al-Qaeda is an NGO, I’m aware of that. That organization must be destroyed, but that doesn’t mean that all Muslims should change their religion.)
Before the Vatican City is presented as an example of a peaceful theocracy, remember it is only about 100 acres in size. Catholicism was declawed and defanged over centuries. It has no choice but to be an espouser of peace. It’s time for Islam to make that same journey.
You do, rightly, I believe, point out that with technology as it is today, the claws and fangs of radical Islam are potentially far more dangerous than any organized theocracies in our history.
Something must be done to separate church and state in the Islamic world, and the political party that would enforce that to the absolute maximum in the USA, would never consider that a reasonable foreign policy goal. Oh, the irony, the blackest humor. Makes you weep at the absurdity of some political views.
All of this being said, I think honor killings are a separate cultural issue. Find this man, prosecute, convict, and punish.
If it’s so honorable, why are you running? a–hole.
It is definitely off topic, granite, which is why I always mention the murderer and his victims.
I agree with your sentiment, but that’s all it is: sentiment.
Who are we at war with?
Who do we attack?
What are the practical steps?
Who do we kill?
Do we intern all Muslims? (No offense, Michelle, but it has to be asked.)
Do we burn Korans and destroy mosques?
I appreciate the impassioned speech, but what exactly are we advocating?
I’m not shying away from war. In fact, to make the changes necessary to stop this threat, and because of the inability of the Jihadists to actually change their views (because of their willingness to die for their beliefs, however wrong we see them) we will make war on them.
But who? How?
Those are the answers I’m waiting for from the ten “candidates” that chatted in NH last night.
Jim M, I agree. This appears to be premeditation all the way.
Despite our horror, we really don’t know the irrational hold that the culture has on the minds of these pathetic men. We accept jealousy as an emotional motive for killing and treat it differently. Are there emotional similarities at work here?
Do not take my comments as attempting to justify the behavior. In fact, my comments are idicting the “crimes of passion” defense. Murder is murder. Whether you planned it out or were overcome with indignity at being a cuckold. But, alas, that isn’t our laws.
WELL PUT, Granite!
Dougt has been brainwashed. He can not hear nor see the truth.
ISLAM IS the problem, dougt, or do you not read the koran and other moslem texts?. Do you not see the videos teaching a man how to beat his wife? The videos teaching children, 3-4 years old how to hate and kill in the name of islam? Or the entirety of a misogynistic approach to islam? How to listen to the rock who tells where the Jew is so you can kill the Jew?
Before you try to sway anyone here, muslim, go read some more. Try your empty rhetoric on Jihadwatch for a day.
If you can not or will not see that ISLAM killed those girls, then you too are EVIL, just like your fake prophet mohammed, the pedophile and murderer.
Dallas Police Depaartment’s response.
“Lalalalalalala I can’t hear you.”
“However, I don’t believe this is about the basic teachings of Islam. Are we denying that wars and executions haven’t been performed in the name of Christianity?”
Anything in the last 200 years you want to point out in particular, or are you just trying real hard to show us you are delusional?
#34 On January 6th, 2008 at 11:29 am, DougT said:
“I agree with your sentiment, but that’s all it is: sentiment.”
Thank you for agreeing.
And, that is all your questions: questions.
What is needed is for the majority of the West to shout that we realize that we are under attack, and at war with jihadist Islam; and that we will powerfully resist; and that we will never - never - submit.
“I appreciate the impassioned speech, but what exactly are we advocating?”
The sarcasm, whether intended or inadvertent, is appreciated, despite its being thinly veiled. Thank you.
Again…to repeat: What is needed is for the majority of the West to shout that we realize that we are under attack, and at war with jihadist Islam; and that we will powerfully resist; and that we will never - never - submit.
“Do we intern all Muslims?”
We at least stop their further immigration.
And, we stop the ridiculous legal wrangling that hamstrings our monitoring of terrorists, and their enablers, supporters, and fundraisers here in the U.S.
And, we get serious about border control.
“On January 6th, 2008 at 11:16 am, jegjr said:
If it’s so honorable, why are you running? a–hole.”
Exactly. Kill the defenseless and then run. Every time. Another trait of the ROP.
Very curious.
That was refreshing, shooter. Will you be working for this murderer’s defense team? You seem to have absolved him of his crime.
And, yes, I was being facetious about you assisting this criminal. It was not intended to be a serious criticism of your otherwise anassailable logic.
I’m not trying to sway anyone. I’m just trying to challenge the rhetoric, empty or otherwise, that I read here.
Your vitriol is misplaced, I assure you.
And, that is all your questions ARE: questions.
Sorry….
#41 On January 6th, 2008 at 11:45 am, DougT said:
“I’m not trying to sway anyone. I’m just trying to challenge the rhetoric, empty or otherwise, that I read here.”
Another slap!
Thank you sir, may I have another?!
Granite, I intended no sarcasm.
I was asking about the practical matters of your comments. A valid thing to do.
So, if we do the declamatory actions you suggest–and I believe that ultimately, Western leadership will be forced to do so (though, GWB hasn’t had to be forced)–I was asking what would happen next.
I’m not disagreeing with your view, I’m just trying to follow through on to where it logically leads.
Yeah, that was a little cold on my part. Hey, I’m human. I’ve just been called delusional and brainwashed. I was being sensitive. My apologies. (really…no sarcasm…)
As they say, guns don’t kill-people kill. These girls were not killed by a religion, these girls were killed by a 15th century mind set that it is OK to do so… OK, ok so lots of people with this mind set share a common religion.
But just look at Pakistan becoming modernized and all, why they even have a woman rising to high political office &
Ooops, never mind.
I doubt that. There is a very common tone in your words…words we do hear from islam apologists often. They usually start with “it’s not islam, its the culture” nonsense. Thats where I lost respect for your commentary.
Islam is NOT compatible with anything outside of islam.
with treacherous Mo as islam’s sole guide to morality, there is NO hope for islam to ever be peaceful, loving, or really anything useful beyond 7th century barbarism.
For the record, Doug…here is where I take issue, your first comment:
You lost me at hello.
Thanks shooter for helping me better understand the lay of the land here. (Again, no sarcasm intended.)
I am not an apologist, but I am also not going paint every adherent of an entire religion with such broad brushstrokes. At this time, I, personally, just can’t do it.
And arguing about why I won’t will likely be viewed as an insult to those that do. And this isn’t the forum for that.
We have to challenge our own thinking. We’ll each do it in our own ways.
To that end, I will be reading Gregory Davis’ book. If you have others to recommend, please let me know.
Dear Next POTUS,
You are gonna have’ta deal w/ this:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/01/nyt_covers_muslim_domestic_vio.html
no,no,no….not islam…we already KNOW that! is a problem.
It’s the MSM Spin of threats that will KILL! us!…check this out… ‘Islamically-correct shelter services’………..
this is officially ‘OUT of CONTROL!’
The sharia/dhimmi games are on America!!
& a great haircut & very polite are not going to cut it!
GOD HELP CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!
And, brooklyn red, that was funny…but oh, so dark.
1. it is NOT a religion. It is a twisted amalgam of Judeo/Christian Beliefs/History by a pedophile-freak.
2. & Just as Catholics did,…so must ‘Peaceful Muslims’ do.
Purge the ranks of evil doers!! OK!!!?!
Vince is correct. Honor Killings were tribal law, at first, and later adopted as just
another handy way to keep those pesky females in line. As Jeff Dunham’s Achmed
the Dead Terrorist says, “SILENCE! I KEEL YOU!
Sometimes physical abuse of a female relative is a prelude to sexual abuse. This
may have been the case since he married a 15 yr old. When he found out they
had boyfriends, he went ballistic. It could be more a case of, if I cannot have them
no one will ever have them. In any case, I do not doubt that in his mind, this was
an honor killing because he felt he had lost control.
I also do not doubt that the son was told by leaders of the Mosque to get on tv
and tell everyone this had nothing to do with religion. You know he does not
believe that.
(I did not mean to make light of honor killings by quoting Dunham’s dummy).
IF he ever faces the chair in Texas, be sure the chair isn’t facing Mecca. This is a scumbag through and through.
First of all, Doug, you are an apologist, in the sense of writing apologia; a worthy practice.
You continue to trot out the implication that we’re talking genocide. I, for one, am not. I’m saying we need to eradicate the (you can call it culture if you wish, but in this case they’re inseperable) religion that not only condones but actively encourages this sort of thing, and seeks to place the entire world under its control.
That is islam as it exists today. You can keep repeating the truism that it isn’t all muslims, or that it isn’t even close to a majority. But as long as those who look at their religion as a “religion of peace” etc. do not step up and defend their faith in the only way that means anything, it’s all worthless talk.
They must become the fiercest opponents of people like Said, and moslem leaders throughout the world who preach acts like his.
Used the link, Coldfront. One thing they discusssed is true. In this country,
women are too quick to want them to remove their head coverings, because it is
a symbol of male tyranny. I was told that about covering my head to attend Mass. I did not feel that way. I felt it was a symbol of ( and still do) my respect
for God and being in His house. We need to feel the same way about Muslim
women because I have been told that this is what they feel, not that men make
them cover their heads. They do it as a sign of respect for Allah. That said,
the rest of them being covered up is male domination.
On January 6th, 2008 at 12:40 pm, ammo john said:
IF he ever faces the chair in Texas, be sure the chair isn’t facing Mecca. This is a scumbag through and through.
Right on John and give him a big fat pork chop for his last meal.
Patricia and Yaser Said were wed in February 1987 when she was 15 and he was 30
I’m puzzled; I agree we can surmise premeditation, but I don’t see these distinctions as having the marks of an “honor killing”. I read stories like this all year long. A crazed, estranged spouse (usually the man) lies to get the woman and kids back into the home, or vice versa, and then murder ensues.
It happens far too often, yes even in American culture, having nothing to do with Islam.
Look, I’m no apologist for Islam, radical or otherwise. I’m just saying that senseless and brutal killings happen in dysfunctional families, and it’s always tragic. We don’t blame, or even discuss, the family’s religion unless, as here, it’s involving Muslims.
I worry about that.
why the hell can’t people get over this damned issue of what Christians are reported to have done over 500 years ago?!? I am so sick of hearing people on *both* sides of the political fence bringing it up as an excuse for Islam, or a comparison to Islam, or a similarity to Islam.
Maybe it happened, but there are a couple major differences!
Fist off: CHRISTIANITY HAS MOVED ON. Christians turned on their own effectively and forced change, even if it was one person at a time. The end result is that while we have a few whack jobs among the millions of Christians, we are not blowing ourselves up, flying planes into buildings, raping young women to punish them, punishing women who have been raped, killing women who have been raped, killing women who have dated, killing women who don’t follow the dress code, setting cars on fire, rioting in the streets because of cartoons, moving to have women beaten for naming stuffed animals Jesus, and on and on.
Second: I’ve seen opinions and evidence supporting both theories that the crusades were started by the Christians, or started by the Muslims. It’s pretty clear that written history is lacking.
Third: It was over 500 years ago! Those who committed such crimes are so long dead that few of the names are remembered even. Christians should NOT sit back and let just anyone try and apply the same lunacy that the entitlement and “reparations” mindset has ravaged certain other groups in our country for so long.
People need to just drop it. The FACTS
[continued. hit return on accident]
..are that Islam is killing people NOW. Christianity got over it and is a LOT better that it was.
There are plenty of books apparently describing the intolerance and inherent wrongness of Islam.
Can someone recommend a title that addresses a plan for dealing with it?
I thought I found something by O’Reilly in his Talking Points, but he just points out the need for a plan.
Valid points, vickisoup.
Doug T. Go to the archives at the home page under Islam and you can network through some good info.
Sorry but here at Malkin CSI all murders are committed by Muslims, Illegal Immigrants, or Unhinged Anti-war Zealots. As long as you have one friend or distant relative state that, then it must be true. Yes, here at the new media you only need one unverified source. Verification will occur later when a like minded blogger repeats the assumption. Like in the Schrieken shooting case.
In Michelle’s world (the one with the Camps) there is no need for investigators, courts, or justice.
Only fear.
TXRose, hope your are well! & yes, it is w/out any compassion, to treat Muslim Women as if they were American feministas. It is the anemic projected vision of ‘feminists’.
This link is also good!!!&, i am vindicated:
“Back in Iowa, Thompson famously refused to respond to the debate moderator/school marm’s demand for a hand-show on global warming.”
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2008/01/06/fred-after-false-withdrawal-rumor-i-owe-media-nothing …& this in from Bryan @ HotAir…
“A man of few words, Fred Thompson, but the few words he does uses, he uses well.” http://hotair.com/archives/2008/01/05/gop-debate-videos-fred-defines-amnesty-huck-chucks-on-the-surge-a-face-in-the-crowd/
….like I said….a collective wake-Up call in the collective unconscious of the American Psyche!
Ladies & Gentlemen…We have an Adult in the House who understands why islam is not a religion of peace & isn’t afraid to state so.
GO FRED!!! Thomposon / Hunter
Christian vs Muslim philosophy can be summed up simply. Jesus never in any of his preachings told anyone to kill another human being. The Quran, however is replete with examples of Mohammed telling his followers to kill infidels.
While many evils have been perpetrated in the name of both religions, the words of the founders speak volumes for any who care to read them.
scooter56, Give it a rest.
I wouldn’t bet on that either. Pull your head out of the sand and take a close look at what is really happening with the Muslims in western democracies.
Seriously guy, wake up and smell the coffee.
Are you agreeing with me trinitytim? Or are you suggesting that this has a non-zero likelihood of occurring?
Thanks for the suggestion, Marshall. Google was leading me down a path of some serious, but surely unfruitful, digging. Time is money.
A few small points that bother me:
a. This guy looks like Sadam.
b. He is a cab driver. (it’s a NY thing)
c. If the motive was religious intolerance, isn’t this a hate crime?
DougT, it sounds like you’re claiming that religious teachings and traditions have had no part in shaping the culture in Muslim countries - a very curious argument indeed.
A few nuts on the fringe may have expressed sympathy for the killing of abortion doctors, but the vast majority of Christians condemned the killings. Are the vast majority of Muslims condemning these “honor” killings or are they excusing them? Did the vast majority of Muslims around the world condemn 911, or did they excuse and even cheer Osama for his murderous killing of civilians, which included some Muslims?
Mr. Said is hiding somewhere. Is he being helped by fellow Muslims? If he has left the country and is now in Egypt, do you think they will turn him in or protect him? What fellow Muslims say and do in this case is what will justify or condemn the Religion of Peace and the Muslim culture it has spawned. “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
“By their fruits ye shall know them.”
Papa Louie… you sure aced that one.
Another good one, Coldfront. I too am a Fredhead. I really like Hunter, also,
but don’t think he’s going anywhere this time around. Maybe in four years if
we wind up with BO.
What is being said is true. Islam is today where Christianity was 500 years ago
and whether you like it or not, that is going to be brought up again and again.
We don’t need to get into name calling and trying to hush someone up because that person thinks a little differently than we do. That’s how the other
side acts.
This man killed his children and knows that it is wrong, honor killing or not. If
he thought he was justified, he’d have been standing beside that cab when the police arrived. He wasn’t, so we must assume that besides being a
murderer, he is also a coward.
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: why did no one report this activity to the authorities?! Abused them for years? And nothing was said or done about it? I really feel pity for these poor young ladies. It seems no one was there for them when they need support the most.
Doug T - compliments for keeping it together and arguing rationally rather than becoming abusive, which these sort of discussions often degrade to.
Doug T #10, “Religion is just a tool of a culture, not the other way around.”
I tend to disagree. I have mentioned in another thread earlier effectively the opposite - the religion of Islam is a driving force in a devout followers life, as it is with many religions, and as a result, the followers live their lives according to their religion. This then becomes their culture, therefore culture is created by the religion, or at least religion can be a very large contributing factor to one’s culture with somewhat demanding religions such as Islam.
..although religion can be a tool in the hands of religious leaders - declarations of jihad being an example, but the culture of religion still has to exist already for such a thing to occur.
I guess my point is this: religion is not just a tool of a culture, nor is culture a tool of religion - religion IS a culture, and vice versa.
Someone is off his meds.
As for the questions regarding the evidence of an honor killing, the fact that the mother moved out of the home and took her daughters with her suggests there was some risk to one or all of them. The statements by a close relative indicating that the reason the mother fled the home was because the father has threatened to kill his daughters over their dating is evidence of the honor motive, not to mention the statements of the friends of the daughters.
The fact that the father did in fact carry through on the threat and evidence pointing to premeditation (such as the crime scene 20 miles from the home) demonstrates that the murders were the result of a calculated move, one with little motive other than the father’s honor. His daughters dishonored him by their dating and their western ways, and when they left with their mother that was the ultimate loss of honor and face.
Add to that the fact that he is being actively harbored by someone, adds credence to the position that whomever is harboring him believes his actions were somehow justified. And the preservation of a man’s honor is a powerful justification for murder in Islam. The women of the home are not his equal, and their actions “demanded” severe retribution.
#11 Doug T said:
Please don’t teach your children this hollow sentiment, it might end up getting them killed. Whether on a playground or in the real world, irrational people and irrational groups continually prove that they are more than willing to take your “rational thoughts” and destroy you with them.
WW II, the last American war where liberals actually kept their treasonous mouths shut, wasn’t won with “rational thoughts,” it was won by pounding the snot out of the nations of Germany and Japan, until they couldn’t take it anymore. Ironically for you, it was the “rational thoughts” of Europe’s hollow diplomacy with the enemy that got us there in the first place.
Since no one has asked yet, what is your solution to our current affair? How do you solve a problem like sharia?
They tried to report him and the abuse to several “authority figures” but no action
was taken. Who these authority figures were has not been reported. Was it their
teachers, someone at the Mosque, the police ( who too often cannot do anything
until an actual crime has been commited)? Did they back out of pressing charges?
You can bet that under most circumstances, the brother is just an extension of the
father’s arm. I doubt that we will get anything worthwhile from him.
Oops; sorry. TXRose.
That’s because only in islam are men taught to kill,humiliate & mutilate their women for allah starting at infancy.
OK…so does that go for ‘Atlas’ & ‘LGF’, & ‘JihadWatch’ & all the other sites committed to ‘understanding islam’?
Perhaps i have not understood you properly.
um….DT.you need to spend some time reading ‘blogging the Qur’an’ by R.Spencer…go here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php
or how about this: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Prologue.Islam
or here’s one to puke by: http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352826&TOCID=2083225445
Hey TXRose, yes,he killed his daughters…& there are no words to touch this kind of evil…only in his case, he has the cult of death&sharia behind him breathing caliphat down upon the world In short,in his world what he did was appropriate!
Christianity vs islam:
‘Even thieves pray for their own,But I am asking you to pray for your enemies!’ The Son of God
vs.
‘Kill all of the non-believers where ever you may find them!..slit their throats, show no mercy, crucify them.’ allah to ol’mo
History repeats itself, whether one wants it to, or not. To understand the present and future, it’s best to know what happened in the past. I’m sure you know that old expression, “Those who do not know their history, are condemned to repeat it.” Yes, Christianity had its extremist time, and Islam, now, is having theirs. Unfortunately, for them, the world is much “smaller” now. However, I know some Moslems and I know how much they abhor this extremism. Perhaps the news doesn’t support the moderates. I know some feel it’s best to remain silent, less they become targets. As the Bible became distorted from power hungry men, so has the Koran. And, as long as we show weakness in dealing with fanatical clerics, they will presist, and recruit new members, with emotionalism. The best way to power is create an enemy (the West) and direct the population’s emotions to that enemy and away from you. All dictators and despots know this. Heck, even the democrats use it; the enemy being Bush.
TexasRose is someone else, as I have recently discovered Vickisoup. Someone
went looking for me on TX Townhall blogs and found her before she got to me
and left her a message.
I know moderate and conservative Muslims that do not speak out because a
fatwa can be issued here just as easily as in the mid east. In other words, they
are afraid for themselves and their children. It is easy for me to say, they should
speak out regardless of the danger. I am not in danger of having a fatwa put out
for my death.
Jim #76, oh that’s just scooter… who likes to stir the pot. Kinda like the guest at the party who gets in all the other guests faces, confrontational? yes, but he does keep us honest.
(pssst, scooter don’t insult your hostess)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3905/is_200009/ai_n8927092
I must respectfully but absolutely disagree. Christianity never had its “extremist time.” Extremists and wicked men had a “time” and used the Bible as a front. Those men, by virtue of their attitudes and actions, were not Christian. Christianity has always existed as a function of God’s will, not as a function of men’s actions. I realize I’m straying into theology, but it’s difficult to explain the difference between extremists who claim to be Christian and radical Muslims, who take their inspiration and direction directly from the Koran.
The Bible has remained the same since its inception. Yes, many corrupt men have used the Bible, Christianity, and morality as fronts for wicked, heinous actions. However, you will not find their misdeeds justified or rationalized anywhere in Scripture. The same cannot be said for the Koran and for Muslims, this much is clear.
If you don’t believe that, please click over to “Blogging the Quran,” which has been referenced several times in this comment section.
Silence = death
tell your Muslim friends to get behind Ayaan Hersi Ali http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/english/index.html
Wafa Sultan
http://origin.www.ifilm.com/video/2703896
send them here: American Islamic Forum for Democracy http://www.aifdemocracy.org/
Discern the Truth, Know the enemy & DEAL!!! Sitting back & doing nothing because one is silenced by fear, is just another death sentence.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320507,00.html
WE ARE UP AGAINST THE WALL NOW!!!
That’s an interesting link Vickisoup. I think that I have read something
either about that killing or one horribly similar. I know personally, of one
that came within a hairsbreadth of taking place. A man that had a wife
and six children, the oldest of which was 12 and the youngest, 1, for
whatever reason, decided to kill them all, starting with the wife and working down to the youngest, the apple of his eye! He wrote a note
explaining the entire sad affair, and sat down, outside, with his gun to
wait for them all to go to sleep. At some point, while he was waiting, either the heinousness of what he was planning or something else, caused him to instead take his own life. I know that at least one of the
children always thought that a guardian angel intervened. Could very
well be.
Yes. Yes. I don’t know what I would do either…But sooner than later it will be all of us under islamic death threat which is why we need to beat this down right now…starting w/ banning the ACLU for defending terrorist. Starting w/ throwing out of office anyone who doesn’t really understand that there is no getting along peacefully w/ the Caliphat.
The ACLU needs to be banned on general principles because they have lost
sight of their mission and have now become the problem.
AMEN!!
Look at the picture of those beautiful girls and tell me that scum bag needs justice! NOOOOOO, people want him to have a fair trial where we spend millions of dollars and there is always the chance of a technicallity letting him free.
Eery time I see their picture I wish the guy was lined up in my sights so I could pull the trigger. We call that southern justice and it still works and costs about a nickle.
I would feel the same way about a Christian as well. I am one. Oh, sure, here it comes. How can I be? Because I desire justice.
BrianNY, “Since no one has asked yet, what is your solution to our current affair? How do you solve a problem like sharia?”
Act locally homie, stopthemadrassa.org is a good place to start… yup a madrassa right here in Bklyn. in the shadow (well not any more) of the Trade Centers, funded by your tax dollars… are you angry yet?
#67 On January 6th, 2008 at 1:53 pm, Marshall Russ said:
“scooter56, Give it a rest.”
Thank you, Marshall Russ. You beat me to it.
#76 Jim M.: And thank you, also.
#77 BrianNY.: And thank you, as well.
#81 coldfront: Well said.
#86 fourstringfuror: And finally, thank you, too.
BrianNY (#77), I was waiting for someone to take umbrage with the notion that reason is somehow the same as appeasement. You’ll find as time passes that I am no appeaser.
I refuse to give up my rationality though. If you want to continue a violent cycle of “might makes right” type of thinking, then we’ll have to disagree. That doesn’t mean I won’t defend myself or that I think my country should not do likewise.
A rational approach doesn’t preclude force, it makes it use of it judiciously and wisely.
I also don’t agree with the notion that radical Islam is on par with the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese war machines. These were countries with industrial infrastructures and professional military forces spreading war directly to their neighbors. This was an enemy that could be directly fought.
Who do we attack as the representatives of radical Islam? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?
But back to the notion that my statement is somehow hollow or weak. What is the alternative?
Rational doesn’t mean stupid or weak. It’s disheartening that we would condsider it so.
As far as how I would handle it? I don’t know yet. Do I think it needs to be addressed? Yes, I do.
Somewhere I read where this current situation is similar to the Anarchist movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. McKinley was killed during this time, as were other leaders. I’m sure there are a lot of differences, too, but like now, they were an enemy that had no specific home and that makes it extremely difficult to handle at a nation state level.
Clearly, history has shown that capitalist democracies don’t make war on each other (well, maybe trade wars) and that peace benefits all. How do we move away from theocracies and military police states and emirates to democracies, is the question.
Considering that democracy is a part of the culture, too, how do we make it part of the current culture in Islamic states?
Capitalist (even the Socialist)democracies are not likely to harbor terrorists and be shunned from the rest of the world. But that’s just a guess. (Could bin Laden be in France?)
But now I am way off topic.
Consider, even…sheesh
Watch the reaction of the imams to Wafa.
http://origin.www.ifilm.com/video/2703896 …know what these freaks are most afraid of??? Women!! esp.angry women!!