“My dad found out abt mina and is goin to kill us.”
Yaser Abdel Said, the Eyptian Muslim cab driver wanted in the brutal murders of his two daughters in Dallas, is still missing. The Dallas Morning News continues to cover the story and offers new details on Said’s past history of alleged abuse (see also Rod Dreher):
In the week since their murders, friends and relatives on Patricia Said’s side of the family say they have been haunted by that final phone call, a cry for help that went unanswered for years. They say Mr. Said physically and emotionally abused his children.
In October 1998, when Amina and Sarah were 9 and 8 years old, they accused their father of sexual abuse.
The allegations were reported to the Hill County sheriff’s office, where the girls told a detective their father had been touching them inappropriately. Amina told authorities she had been penetrated at least once.
Their mother swore in an affidavit that the allegations were true.
In early January 1999, the two girls told authorities that they had lied about the allegations because they didn’t want to attend rural Covington schools and wanted to go live with their grandmother. A district judge later dropped the charges of aggravated sexual assault against Mr. Said.
Amina and Sarah’s mother and brother continue to protest that murders were not honor killings. But the testimonies of the sisters’ best friends, other relatives, and the mother’s own words to the police say otherwise:
In a brief phone call in which she declined to comment further, his wife, Patricia, angrily rejected the notion that Mr. Said’s Muslim religion or culture had anything to do with the murders.
Her son, Islam, 19, agreed.
“Why is it every time an Arab father kills a daughter, it’s an honor killing?” Islam said. “It didn’t have anything to do with that.” He declined to answer other questions.
The son named Islam is reportedly responsible for persuading the girls to return after attempting to leave their abusive father. One friend received a text message from Sarah Said that read: “Me mina and my mom r running away! ..My dad found out abt mina and is goin to kill us….B4 he tld me that he was goin to put bullet thru her head…today he tld me to get used to my sis bc shes not goin to b w us lng.”
Here’s what the mother told police a few days before the sisters were shot to death:
“Patricia stated that she was not going to call back again, as she was in great fear of her life. Patricia said she is very fearful of her husband harming her and/or her children, which is the reason she left her husband. Patricia further advised she and her children, Sarah and Amina, are just fine, and are going to continue hiding from her husband.”
… “Patricia had told her that since they are Muslim that the daughter was only allowed to date other Muslims. Yaser had found out she went on a date with a non-Muslim and became very angry and threatened her with bodily harm. This concerned Patricia because Yaser has been violent in the past and Patricia was afraid that Yaser would severely hurt their daughter. At that time Patricia decided it would be best to leave her husband and take their daughters and go into hiding.”
Debbie Schlussel heard from Sarah and Amina’s aunt. An excerpt of her e-mail:
Yes, this was an honor killing and I believe with all my heart that ISLAM, the brother, is just as guilty as his dad. Why? Because Amina would not go back home! He went over, where she was staying and was crying. “Please come home Amina and talk things out with Dad! He will not hurt you, I give you my word! I promise, you will be safe!” She trusted those words and went with him. Not an hour later….Sarah made that infamous call! She died immediately after she called as he took his time killing her. In fact, all we have been told is, “she had multiple gunshots”…..I still have no clue how many bullets he fired at her. I do know she fought for her life as there is a bruise on her forehead which shows that she did not go out without a fight…one this precious and beautiful girl lost…to a man she knew as daddy!
This jibes with other details provided by friends and family in the DMN story:
Connie Moggio, Mrs. Said’s sister, said his controlling and violent nature gripped the family from the start.
Once, he shot out the tires on his wife’s car to keep her home. Another time, Mrs. Moggio said, he blocked her car in a driveway because he thought she was going to help her sister and children escape.
Years later, when Amina was a sophomore at Euless Trinity High School, a friend said she showed up at school with red welts across her arms and back. Another time, Amina confided that her father had kicked her in the face.
“He found notes from her boyfriend,” said a 17-year-old Trinity senior, who asked not to be identified. “Her lips were pretty much attached to her braces, but they wouldn’t take her to the doctor because her family feared her father would be taken to jail.”
She said the abuse continued and threats intensified.
“I remember her telling me that her dad told her he would take her back to Egypt and have her killed,” she said. “He said it’s OK to do that over there if you dishonor your family.”
Nothing to do with Islamic cultural attitudes? Everything to do with, says Robert Spencer.
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Let’s continue to ignore things like this, by all means! This is just an isolated domestic disturbance. Silly people paying attention to facts, move along…
The sick freak should be kicked in his face and sent to prison where he can be ‘touched inappropriately’ by his new cell mate, Big Bubba!
Not an honor killing my a$$…
Dallas Morning News’ Texan of 2008
Why is it every time a car explodes in a marketplace, it’s a terrorist act?” Islam said.
Where are the talking heads from NOW? Oh that’s right, this is a cultural issue, not a criminal one. I fear for our country as it begins to resemble the Balkins more and more every day thanks to our gutless politicians and our clueless academics.
Why is it every time an honor killing occurs, it’s an Arab father?
Do you think Oprah will have the mother on TV?
Not unless she blames America.
“Why is it every time an adultress is stoned, it’s the application of Sharia law?” Islam said.
It continues to escape me how anyone can kill their very own offspring. My children may do things that bring me no honor, but there is no — I repeat NO! — reason to take their lives.
Time to find this man and bring him to Texas justice.
“Why is it every time an infidel is beheaded, it’s Allah’s will?” Islam said.
It is not “honor” killing in that there is no HONOR in it.
We have our laws in the United States of America. They should be followed when this lowlife is captured.
Amazing that all the feminists in this country are silent.
“Why is every ten-ton animal called an elephant?” Islam said.
This is really sick but I bet a billion people think it’s OK. Sorry Rick, their silence is deafening.
It’s hard to stomach that a father and son may have conspired to commit the murders of these poor young ladies. I hope they bring this S.O.B. to justice soon. And if the son was in on it, make that “S.O.B.s”
ACHefty – I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, child abuse knows no culture. I come from an abusive background, and I assure you it’s not “honor” – it’s the ego trip of an inadequate father, usually. The only way the parent can be a man in his own eyes is to beat and kill someone who can’t fight back. And running away just makes them angrier.
RaisedRight is right.
OK, Islam. Enough’s enough. Ever heard of the duck test?
We’re still not talking about the father who threw his 4 children off a bridge yesterday, though. Less tragic because not apparently connected to Islam? Nope.
Ouch but funny!
Man, all the signs were there.
As their population increases, so will these killings.
What beautiful girls. My heart is sick again.
Those feminists value their heads
Just because there’s no thread here doesn’t mean no one’s talking about it. The story’s gotten two days of air on FNC.
Scum.
Vicki wrote “We’re still not talking about the father who threw his 4 children off a bridge yesterday, though. Less tragic because not apparently connected to Islam? Nope.”
Only because that would be a separate thread. The crime is the same. Both “fathers” are scum who should be tortured for a long time-as in made to listen to Celine Dion’s greatest hits set at “volume 11″ by Nigel from Spinal Tap.
What a monster.
But again I urge people to take it easy on Islam (the brother, not necessarily the religion). Whether this is an honor killing or not doesn’t make any bit of difference. This ogre clearly had his entire family under his iron fist and two innocents lost their lives.
To be honest, if my siblings ran away, I would urge them to come back. The world is a dangerous place for two teenagers on the lam. Islam clearly underestimated the evil his father was capable of, but I feel bad for him too.
Just a deplorable tragedy.
I don’t even know what to say anymore. We here know that the lefties who love cultural diversity and/or multiculturalism will either turn a blind eye to this or exclaim that *all* cultures are equal, and we cannot judge that which we do not understand, blah…blah…blah.
These girls were murdered in cold blood. By the one person in the world who was supposed to love and protect them unconditionally.
I know I’ve done things in the past that have disappointed my father but never, ever would I have to run away from him for fear of my life because his faith would never allow him to murder me as honor.
For those of you who argue that murders happen, that parents kill their children more often than they should – I agree. But when you look through the history of Islam, the application of shari’a law in other nations, and the teachings of the Koran and Hadith it’s clear this is a problem explicitly tied to Islam.
There is no rational way to argue otherwise.
Those precious, precious girls who never had a chance. Their lives, snuffed about by the one who helped bring it forth. Today, he is on the run from justice, today he runs from his fate with meeting his maker and having to account for his actions. There will come a day when he is no longer able to hide from what he did to those girls. My heartaches for what they had to go through. However, I rejoice in knowing that they are now free. Free and safe in the bosom of the one who truly created them.
This monster who called himself their father represents all that is wrong with Islam and of those who try to appease, deny and hide under the rug what this so-called religion does to women and children.
Come after me if you like because I call a spade, a spade but I will not submit to the pc madness regarding this “religion,” its adherents and apologists. They can all take a flying leap off of the nearest bridge. You sanction this behavior with your, you can’t blame this on Islam or it’s their religion who are we to judge, etc… Their blood is on your hands as well.
I will not submit.
/rant
Can’t find the father?
Who says he’s still in the country?
Okay, okay. I’ll head to that thread.
Her son, Islam, 19, agreed.
“Why is it every time an Arab father kills a daughter, it’s an honor killing?” Islam said. “It didn’t have anything to do with that.” He declined to answer other questions.
**********
Well of course it didn’t. This is a cultural thing…. an Arab father killing his daughter is just his way of saying, “have a great day, and be careful out there”. /s/
Murder is murder. Book him, try him, and do whatever Texas capital punishment allows.
-brian
Yeah, four decomposing corpses were found in DC yesterday and the mother is in custody. Who cares if it was an honor killing. Four children dead is four children dead. I don’t care if it was an Islamic honor killing or a sacrifice to an Aztec god. Killing is never acceptable.
If this murderer doesn’t meet the Texas definition of a justified killing, I don’t
know what does…….”Weeeellllll, yore Honor, he jest needed killin’.” I am not
making light of those beautiful young lives being taken. I am saying he
should be shot in the thigh, on sight, and allowed to lay there and bleed out
while he is being kicked in the face the entire time.
I’m not surprised at all that the son may be an accomplice to these murders. Honor killings often involve the cooperation of several male relatives; there have been instances where brothers have either helped with or were directly responsible for the “honor” killings of their sisters.
As for Dhimmi Mom, SHAME ON HER. That lowlife molested her daughters, beat them, threatened them, and murdered them, but she’s STILL sticking up for the wonders of Islam? Arab/Islamic culture treats women like chattel, where daughters and wives are subject to beatings, forced marriages, rapes, and murders. Certainly men of all kinds of cultures/backgrounds are capable of murdering their children. That Hmong/Vietnamese guy in Alabama a recent example. But this particular type of murder, aimed at a daughter who’s becoming too Westernized, is common ONLY among Arabs/Muslims.
Apparently the father had a history of drug abuse. The impact of parental drug abuse on children is so well documented that judge’s routinely remove children from homes where abuse is identified (isn’t that right, Britney?).
I doubt seriously that any judge would remove a teenage Muslim girl from her home because she’s dating outside her religion.
The liberal “blind eye” stuff is really annoying. “Honor killings” are evil and must be stopped. Period. Any religion or culture that turns a blind eye to the murder of another is failing its people.
Can someone answer this:
How is it an honor killing if the guy ran?
Just think about the logic of that for a second.
Take it easy on the brother? why he’s a flippin accessory to these murders….
he lured his sisters back to sure death and knew it. wake up, he ‘s no innocent bystander here.
Rusty, I try, but I just don’t understand you most of the time. The world is a dangerous place for teenagers on the lam and the home is supposed to be safer. But all of these details coming out sure make it sound as though the home was a far more dangerous place for these poor girls. Islam grew up in the same house, he can’t have been ignorant to the treatment his sisters received.
Yeah, because lynching is a-ok. A good lynching will definitely make everyone feel better.
Come on. I know this is a tragedy and I have no positive feelings towards Yaser Said, but even joking about lynching is dirty pool.
And I don’t even think you were joking.
Wellll, if certain activities are reliable predictors of undesirable outcomes, we might want to take heed. As mentioned earlier, parental drug abuse is a reliable predictor of undesirable outcomes for children. Being a teenage Muslim girl with a strict father and dating outside Islam might be another predictor.
You’re 100% right. But denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. I get the feeling that the father treated his daughters and wife horribly but his son well. It’s hard to admit to yourself that someone that close to you is so unredeemable.
Islam Said made the wrong decision. But I am sympathetic towards him nevertheless.
An honor killing is an honor killing. This story brings tears to my eyes.
Anyone think that CAIR or its compatriots of that ilk have helped spirit this criminal out of the USA?
I say start tearing apart every mosque starting with the one he frequented.
I mean, I get the reasoning there. But “honor killings” – especially in America – are exceptionally rare. To paint strict fathers and/or Islamic fathers with such a broad brush is pretty unreasonable.
Call me a culturally insensitive bigot, but if I had an Aztec neighbor and neighborhood virgins started disappearing, I might sic the cops on him.
If my neighbor had a Pontiac Aztek in the driveway, I’d sic the neighborhood association him.
“Being a teenage Muslim girl with a strict father and dating outside Islam might be another predictor.”
Do you truly believe this?
“Being a teenage Muslim girl with a strict father and dating outside Islam might be another predictor.”
Do you truly believe this?
On January 10th, 2008 at 12:18 pm,
Are you suggesting that he would have stayed around to lay claim for killing his daughters if he had committed the murders because they brought shame on the family?
Well, I have just one thing to say about that. If he is in Egpyt, then he ran to the very place where he would have sympathy and understanding for what he did. He will have found no such sympathy from your average Texan. We don’t condone that behavior here in the US. Therefore, he ran.
HAHAHA. +1. Well done.
I have to disagree with this as well. Details do make a difference. A young girl being killed is tragic. A young girl being killed by her own father certainly makes it more tragic. The loss in the first scenario is obviously not a lesser one, but a parent killing his own child is just… I have no words.
Likewise, a young girl being killed by her father under Islam because she dishonored the family by dating a non-Muslim is more tragic still.
In addition, this situation warrants more scrutiny, IMO, because the laws and practices of Islam are very relevant in our society today. The way people of this culture often think and justify actions with one murder apply on a larger scale to suicide bombings and terrorist attacks and, if some had their way, the total destruction of Western culture. The actions of Said are symptomatic of a much larger issue.
Yes, that’s exactly my point. You’re being inconsistent in your analysis. You’re suggesting that he held enough of the local norms to know that his actions were not “honorable” and thus ran, but still maintain that it was a honor killing. Where exactly was the honor, even from his point of view? If he confused Texas with Egypt, he definitely wasn’t in his right mind.
Rusty:
While I wouldn’t characterize Islamic honor killings as extremely rare, I would concede that they’re probably underreported due to (yes, I’ll say it) cultural ignorance.
I don’t think I’m painting with a broad brush by saying that a strict Islamic father plus a socially ecumenic teenage daughter is the formula for honor killing.
Perhaps every tiger on the loose at the SF Zoo is not an imminent threat, but that’s the way I’d play that hand.
Rusty, I have a friend that was called for jury duty in Weatherford, TX. It was a
rape case and the victims were his 4 year old twin granddaughters. Apparently
he had abused his daughter all of her life and her Mother and Brother would not
let her tell anyone. She finally let him see her children because her Mother kept
begging and pleading and saying he had promised her that he did not molest her
(the daughter) and (and this gets me), even if he did, he was a changed man. She
let him see the girls with the promise that her Mother would be there the entire
time ( she, the daughter had to work), and her Mother decided to run to the store
for milk. She came home just as daughter got there from work. Girls told her
what had happened and she called police. My friend did not get on jury because
when he was asked what the punishment should be he said the offending
“member” should be nailed to a tree stump. The stump should be set on fire.
The man should be given a knife with a rusty blade and told that he would be
set free if he could get himself loose from the stump before he himself catches on fire. I agree. When you hurt a child, whether an infant, a small
child or a teenager, especially a child that you are related to, no punishment
is too tough. (I said nothing about lynching. Sorry if I don’t measure up to
your liberal standards. I am also for the death penalty….just think it should
be a bullet instead of a lethal injection).
That is why I am against abortion.
Go, Mister P!
“Texas Justice” might be what a lot of people want, but I’d rather that guy not get the easy way out, so to speak. I’d rather he be tried, properly convicted, and then have whatever sentence given be carried out publicly as so that the rest of the planet understands where we come from.
My heart aches for the loss of life, and I’ll bet that Islam the brother is not feeling pretty good himself. *If* he was truly an accessory to the crime, I hope his dark deeds haunt him for life.
I hope he is honored with his own death in commiting such a horrible deed.
This article, sadly, proves what I have thought and said all along – that the girls, along with the mother, have been calling out for help for years, and nothing was done.
Such a tragedy. The man deserves no less than death.
..And you are suggesting that Islam had nothing to do with this crime. Sticking your head in the sand may be your way of dealing with things… mine, not so much. I’ll stick with my analysis, thank you very much.
Secondly, if you expect me to be able to explain to you what this man was thinking when he took the lives of his two children, well, I’m sorry but my psychic powers have limitations.
Lastly, you are starting from a pre-conceived conclusion you have about Islam and working backwards. You don’t think Islam has anything to do with this murder and I do. If aren’t convinced by the overwhelming evidence lending itself to the Islam connection. Then I am afraid that nothing I add will matter.
I agree, those things have to be violating something just by existing.
I might be able to along with that if the sentence were really creative…like sixty years in cell with a western view and hard labor on the prison hog farm.
BOB:
Concur. Dave Barry wrote that the Aztek is “ugly enough to cause retina damage,”
30pcs,
It’s obvious that Islam had something to do with this murder. It was the feature that allowed the father to discriminate. But your argument isn’t that Islam had something to do with it. You’re arguing that this man would not have done what he did if he wasn’t Muslim, which is completely different.
You are taking the track that others have taken her by arguing that BECAUSE he was Muslim, by definition, it was an honor killing and by that you are making a lot of assumptions.
What is clear is that they disobeyed him, and for that, he killed them. You’re saying that since he was a Muslim was an honor killing. My question to you is this: If he were not Muslim and the circumstances were the same, would you still consider it to be an honor killing?
And 30pcs, where did I “suggest” that Islam had nothing to do with this crime? Your straw mans are ineffective.
As a trial judge, I saw parents who molested their children and parents who killed their children (usually infanticide). The child murderers were easy to sentence to life in prison (I didn’t have the option of death, or I would have used it). The victim’s voice had to cry out from the grave for justice and I answered as best I could. In the case of parent child molesters, it was often a disturbing spectacle of the abusing scumbag pleading for mercy, the pathetic non-abusing parent pleading not to break up the family unit, and worst of all, the poor child victim seeking leniency for her abuser parent, who now appeared to be “cured.” Safe in the belief that I was doing what was in the best long term interest of the victim, I would sentence the abuser to the maximum prison sentence. I hoped that by the time he got out (I had no expectation that life meant life for a non-homicide), the victim would be a grown woman capable of realizing that I did her a favor by giving her the opportunity to heal away from the threat of this monster.
In my experience, parental pedophiles don’t usually murder their child-victims. Stranger pedophiles are more likely to do that. IMHO, this looks more like an “honor killing” aggravated by pedophile retribution. Whether this was an “honor killing” or just the vicious retribution of a pedophile, I expect that he sensible folks of Texans will put this piece of human garbage in the grave.
Diatribe alert!
Chief, you are right about that. Some of the children I adopted have been abused in one way or another. But I still can’t fathom doing any harm to my children, adopted or those born to me.
It escapes me. I hope I never understand it. I would rather die the proverbial thousand deaths than see any of my youngsters harmed.
Semi-off-topic. I am about to send my oldest daughter (now 20 going on 30) to a conference in ColoSpgs. It is unlikely that she will do anything to bring shame upon herself while there. But if that happens, do you think for a single second that I will kill her?
No! She may get quite a string of verbal outrage from me. She might even lose the freedoms a 20-year-old still living at home is accustomed to enjoying. (I’m in no hurry to push her out the door.) But no physical harm will come to her. She knows that home is still a safe haven.
So if it isn’t religion that drives a man to kill his daughters, what is it? No excuse for abuse. No justification in killing for religion’s sake. No road-rage allowances.
BTW: Maybe authorities need to drop the “why” and concentrate more on “where” so they can find him and get him to justice swiftly and surely.
/Diatribe alert!
Allow me.
If a non-Muslim murdered his daughters for dating outside their religion it would be a shocker of the first order.
I’m not aware of any other religion on the planet that smiles on this practice. That’s the salient point.
http://www.metimes.com/International/2007/12/27/talking_about_honor_killings/6728/“>
May their beautiful souls rest in PEACE…
& may their KILLER face the TRUE GOD!!
It’s just a minority of Muslims that practice this sort of thing. What is the big deal? Just ask Dakine and Scooter, and all the other defenders and apologists of the “Religion of Peace”.
This is just a man who is fulfilling what his holy books and his religious teachings and leaders tell him his moon god wants him to do. He is just doing what will please his god, to make his family more wholesome.
Why are you people being so Islamophobic? Surely the Liberals on here would agree that he is an Immigrant from another land and merely following the customs of that land and his religion and should not be held accountable for it in this country. In fact, we should be adopting those things into our culture so as not to make him and others like him feel embarrassed or enraged that they cannot perform such acts. Who are we to be infringing upon he practice of their religion? It is not like they are Christian for goodness sakes, they are Islamic. We must allow them to do what they must, else we offend them and make them riot and burn things. We cannot have that happen. We are, after all, a Multi-Cultural society.
So join in with the Liberals. Get on the Multi-Cultural bandwagon. It is not too late. Become a Dhimmi today. When you welcome these acts of Islam, you allow them to keep from rioting, to keep from being offended, and to slowly and surly bring their influence into the country. He is guaranteed his righteous place with Allah for keeping his family free from embarrassment, the girls are now free from embarrassing the family from the horrors of seeking individual happiness and freedom, and we are free from individual thought and being called Islamophbic.
I for one welcome our new Liberal Overlords and wish them well in the Multi-Cultural Hell with which they are creatig every day. Good luch citizens, and Allah be praised.
If I remember correctly from going to bible study as a kid doesn’t the “Ten Commandments” include a little rule about thou shall not kill (murder). From what I understand of the death cult of Islam are they not also bound to these commandments from God?
O!!!…..& this:
ERS @ Dec 27, 2007 06:18PM
[ Flag ]
Regrettably, there are a number of factual errors in this interview: 1. “Honor” killings victims can be either male or female. 2. Most estimates of the number of “honor” killings in Pakistan each year are 800 to 1,000. 3. Jordan once stood out as being relatively more progressive in its approach to dealing with “honor” killings, but in recent years it has fallen behind. Iraq, Pakistan, and Turkey have reformed their laws to enable stricter penalties for “honor” killings, for example, while Jordan has not. Jordan also lacks even one shelter that will accept people who are at risk for these crimes, so they are warehoused in prison while the people who pose the risk to them walk free. 4. It is true that the phrase “honor” killing does not appear in the Jordanian penal code. However, there are three penal code articles on the books–Articles 97, 98, and 340–that offer such leniency to the killers that the average sentence is six months. Ellen R. Sheeley, Author “Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”
http://www.metimes.com/International/2007/12/27/talking_about_honor_killings/6728/
mpchops:
Yeah, that’s what I said… don’t go puttin’ words in my mouth, now ya hear?
Where exactly did I say that? Islam provided him with the mandates he sought to uphold by murdering his daughters. Period.
Where did he get the idea to kill his daughters because of their dating preferences?
They disobeyed him how? You completely ignore the previous abuse, the fact that the mother ran away with the girls, etc… Do you have a problem with the words – honor and killing? Yes, what he did to those girls he did because he felt the girls shamed the family. This case is the very definition of an honor killing.
I jumped to conclusions on that one… my bad.
That’s an absurd rationale to apply as to whether or not something merits discussion. By that standard we can’t comment on anything unless we comment on everything, which really would mean we just couldn’t comment.
Which would no doubt please the more Liberal among us.
Islam and the 7th century barbarity it perpetuates in the 21st century is a recurring topic on this blog. That means that any of the appallingly common expressions of that barbarity are going to be of interest here.
Also, just as an aside, I find it interesting that the strongest defense any of you can offer for Islam is non-Muslims also do horrible things. That didn’t work for me in grade school, and I’m not buying it now.
Islam, as written, does not smile on this practice. That’s my salient point. Even the guy who murdered them KNEW he was doing something wrong because he ran. He knew this.
And let’s be historically honest here. Not more than 60 years ago in this country, the Bible was used to justify murder. Obviously it wasn’t the written word of the Bible, but in practice. We didn’t condemn the religion for the practice of some.
Futhermore, I take issue with this:
If a non-Muslim murdered his daughters for dating outside their religion.
That seems like a complete oversimplification. 2 years ago, a father threw his two children out of a hotel window before jumping himself. He didn’t kill the kids because they belong ed to their mother. He killed the kids because the mother wasn’t listening to him and he wanted to make her suffer. There is an emotion there that led him to act, and not just the circumstances.
That’s what I trying to point out. If that emotion exists that allows one to murder their own children, it doesn’t matter what religion or creed they are.
A few years ago, a woman drowned her children because she said God told her to. Is Christianity to blame for this woman murdering her children? No. Craziness is to blame(call it depression or whatever you’d like). Simply because this woman was a christian and blamed god doesn’t make her actions any less insane, and it isn’t shouldn’t be a reflection of the religion that she prescribes to.
A more pertinent question is if she still would have drowned her kids if she weren’t Christian.
#68 RetFireman:
Thank you for that good post!
Again, I have to go back to the image of the dhimmi ostriches with their heads in the sand, in perfect position to meet the jihadis.
We are in for a nasty future.
We will prevail, but it is going to be VERY nasty, due in large part to our domestic dhimmis.
That’s not the same thing at all. Unlike Muslims and honor killings, drowning ones children is not a recurring theme amongst Christians.
I’m no dhimmi, and there is no sand in my ears, either (though I DO live at the beach
).
If my husband killed my children, I would want the country to share in my outrage and pain, and be talking about it on blogs and raising awareness of the culture of liberalism that allows the defense of, “not guilty by reason of insanity”, or drugs, or whatever. There is no excuse to kill one’s children. I would not want my husband to receive a lesser sentence, just because he didn’t embrace Islam and this would not be an “honor” killing.
Whether unwittingly or not, the mother, Patricia, was certainly complicit in the murders. From the Dallas News article posted above:
Putting the pieces together, the girls were NOT aware that the mother was taking them home to daddy. Although not stated, in other reports the son coaxed one of the girls back home with promises she would not be harmed. To me, that says that when they did arrive back from Oklahoma and found out the return was not a visit to their grandmother’s grave, at least one of the daughters fled to a friend’s home and stayed there until lured back by her brother.
The more details that surface in this case, the less likely this horrific act was anything BUT an honor killing. It also sounds like the father had this planned to a “T”. Get the daughters out of the home under the guise of taking them out for a New Year’s dinner, taking his pistol with him, driving them to to a location he obviously felt was safe for him and one that presented a number of escape alternatives, and then shooting his daughters.
The mother at this point is in denial. She apparently watched and condoned the systematic abuse of her daughters over the years, and was ultimately partially responsible for their deaths by wanting to reconcile with her husband. The urge to reconcile was obviously a stronger drive for the mother than the welfare of her daughters; and the mother sadly has followed that script her entire adult life.
I believe it is fair to raise suspiscions regarding the son being involved, and at this point I would not be surprised if the mother had some knowing involvement as well.
This is the crucial point though. Because of the history of abuse, I am more confident that their dating preferences where ancillary to the murders. It was the power of control and his loss of control that I believe led him to commit this acts. Its causality vs. correlation. There was a correlation between their dating preferences and his acts, but the causality was his desire to control. This guy had a HISTORY of abuse. Tragically, people with such a history tend to end lives. Where the abuse he put on them “honor abuse”, or was it male domination on those weaker than him?
I do have a problem with calling it a honor killing due to the practice of those using that phrase to condemn an entire religion.
Its akin to those that oppose the use of the word “racist” every time an incident occurs between people of different races.
who names their kid Islam? that should have been the first sign. Does anyone know children named Christianity or Judaism?
So, if unlike Muslims and honor killings, drowning ones children is not a recurring theme amongst Christians, what religion are the others who drown their children, throw them off bridges, etc.?
Sure, it wasn’t an honor killing. He just wanted them dead. There were not religious overtones.
/Sarc off/
“Smith said Laney’s 8- and 6-year-old sons, who died, were “severely beaten in the head with what appeared to be a rock.” He said Laney told authorities that God told her to kill her children.”
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/12/slain.children/
Sadly enough, it really is.
I know plenty of guys named, “Christian”, “Judah” and “Jesus”.
alamedaman
Are you serious? What about “Jesus”? I knew a kid name “Lord Moses”. And you’ve never heard of a kid named “Christian”? It’s the 21st most popular name in the country!
(And “Christopher” comes in at number 7)
First of all, I can’t say what the religion is of all parents who kill their children. Secondly, honor killing is something done because of the religion and established within the religion. No true, sane Christian that I have heard has ever condoned killing one’s own children for any reason.
Man, work is distracting me from more important things like commenting here… someone help me out with the words that I’m looking for.
I was not surprised to learn there had be accusations of abuse because I had heard and read that they had been going to different authorities for years and no
one helped them. It is not unusual for reports of sexual abuse to be withdrawn by
the victims or their families. Sometimes it is because of the mistaken idea that it
is damaging to talk about it or to take it to trial and thereby prolong the whole
thing. Then there is the bit about “tearing the family apart” or the victime tends to
love the abuser (if it is a parent..Father OR Mother) and the withdrawal of affection
even if it is unpleasant is often worse to the victim (depending on the age) than the actual abuse. Now, don’t point and say that I am justifying not prosecuting the criminal. I am not. I am telling you what I have to know to counsel abuse
victims. This is why, once, again, I was not surprised to hear that accusations
had been withdrawn. I would bet that this is primarily what was behind the killings. If he couldn’t have them ( and he knew in this society he could not that
they had already gone to the authorities at least once) then no one could have
them. He either didn’t approve of them dating AT ALL much less outside their
religion or he did not approve of them dating outside their religion. This sounds as messed up as Islam (the religion) is. It’s either an Honor Killing or an
Honor Killing with undertones of incest. Take your pick. And yes, Islam (the
religion) is suppossed to adhere to the Ten Commandments.
#73:
Alternative hypothesis: The father ran even though he believed he acted righteously and Allah willed his daughters’ murder, but feared capture, detention, prosecution, conviction and imprisonment.
The rest of your examples validate my point. The cases you cited were aberrations and shocked the conscience of Christians and Jews because they knew that the contrary to claims, the Bible/God did not sanction these crimes.
Your examples would be validated if afterward folks had been saying things like, “Drowned her two kids because God told her to. Must be a Presbyterian. They’re crazy that way.”
That’s because we’re at the point that when Christians do it, we call it what it is: Crazy. There is NO sane reason to kill your children.(….I hesitate to add that there may be an understandable one. If anyone’s ever read “Beloved”, they’ll understand).
“honor killing is something done because of the religion”
This is an interesting point. It’s something that I tried to touch on earlier. The question is if he were another religion, and given the history that he has had, would he still have murdered them?
Conversely, if the mother whom drowned her children were another religion, would she still have done what she did?
Ultimately, was the religion the REASON for their actions or the EXCUSE for their actions.
Wonderful, I’m glad you know that. Now if could just convince a few hundred million Muslims to agree with you the world will be a better place.
I have no idea what you’re referring to here. I’m unaware of any Christian sect that raised it’s men from birth to believe that their women are property to be abused, or even killed, at will.
Those murdered girls didn’t seem to think so.
Emotions don’t form in a vacuum. They are in large part a response to your experience during your formative years. When those formative years are spent hearing that you are master of all you survey and it’s acceptable (even admirable!) to kill your children I think you’re more likely to do it than someone raised by civilized human beings.
Christianity’s blamelessness for that doesn’t stem from the woman’s insanity, it stems from the fact that Christianity does not condone murdering your children.
It’s funny… well, not really… but I don’t remember you people coming out to defend the Catholic Church by pointing out that when a priest molests a child it has nothing to do with the priesthood.
Continue bending over backwards to extend Islam an undeserved benefit of the doubt. See how that works out for you.
#77 On January 10th, 2008 at 1:20 pm, Jim M. said:
…”I believe it is fair to raise suspiscions regarding the son being involved,….”
Yep.
And I was called names the other day by a mature, razor sharp-debater co-blogger of ours, becuase I had the audacity (along with some others) to discuss this possibilty.
Oh, well…comes with the territory.
Everyone here who wishes to see that the wonderful religion of Islam is not blamed for the acts of its adherents, is missing the point. The crux of the matter is simple: women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame.
Per Mohammed women are awrah which when translated means object of shame.
You invoke the bible and Christianity to prove a point about religion but I ask you to show me where in the bible does it say kill your enemies or if your daughter has sex before marriage you are justified in taking her life.
Since there is no convincing you that this is an honor killing. I guess we’ll suspend discussions until the father is caught and then he can tell us that his daughters shamed and the family and he had to do what he had to do… maybe then it’ll be enough to convince you. As for me, my mind is made up.
…possibilIty…man!
Apologies.
Your examples would be validated if afterward folks had been saying things like, “Drowned her two kids because God told her to. Must be a Presbyterian. They’re crazy that way.”
People don’t? Mormons get criticized daily.
I do take issue with your first paragraph though. How religious of a person is he if he fears the worldly ramifications of a holy act?
On January 10th, 2008 at 1:27 pm, mpChops said:
That’s not the same thing at all. Unlike Muslims and honor killings, drowning ones children is not a recurring theme amongst Christians.
“Smith said Laney’s 8- and 6-year-old sons, who died, were “severely beaten in the head with what appeared to be a rock.” He said Laney told authorities that God told her to kill her children.”
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/12/slain.children/
Sadly enough, it really is.
#78:
So you’re opposed to calling it an honor killing not because it doesn’t fit a pattern, but because that pattern of behavior is found almost entirely within one religion and we rubes would use our broad brushes to unfairly tar the innocent members of that religion?
I beg to differ. He ran because he did not want to accept the legal consequences. That does NOT mean he believed his actions were wrong.
And just where did he run to, anyway?According to a friend of the girls, he claimed he would take them to Egypt where such murders are accepted. That doesn’t sound like a man who is troubled by the morality of his threatened actions — only one trying to escape the legal consequences of his actions.
But I’m sure that if he’s in Egypt (the home of Islam’s premier univeristy, Al Azhar, and where 90% of the population is Muslim), our Egyptian friends (how many billions of $$$ do we send in aid to Egypt again???) will track him down (seeing as how he is wanted for murder and Islam abhors the killing of one’s children) and and deport him to face justice in the US.
Uh, yeah, that last paragraph was sarcasm.
James, why the hell would you comment on it if you have no idea what I’m referring to? That just doesn’t make any sense. Regardless…
This is a PERFECT example and I’m glad you brought it up. When this happen, the Catholic Church was criticized for being complacent, and through court cases it was found that they largely were. However, no one criticized CHRISTIANITY for the actions of the priests.
I had to read that about 3 times..so if he is so sure it was not an honor killing, what was it? A dishonorable discharge from the family?
Texas, if the circumstances were the same and except these differences, would you still call it an honor killing?
Instead of the family being Muslim, they were baptist. Instead of the dating outside the religion, the daughters dated outside the race.
Ultimately, the father kills the daughter and the date. Is that an honor killing?
Might we lighten up a bit here?
I know a woman who dated outside her religion and her parents punished the guy in the worst way possible.
They let me marry her.