A challenge to campus Muslim groups
Will you join David Horowitz and the Terrorism Awareness Project and sign a petition against genocide?
The David Horowitz Freedom Center announced that it will distribute a Declaration Against Genocide and ask individuals and groups, particularly those on American college campuses, to sign it. The Declaration notes that the Sudanese and other Africans have been victims of a slow motion genocide, and that Islamo fascists in the Middle East are preparing a new genocide against the Jews and can be found here.
In describing the objectives of this new initiative, David Horowitz, President of the Freedom Center, said: “We are asking all campus groups to repudiate the genocidal passage in the Islamic Hadith which reads: “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’”
Horowitz continued: “We are also asking all campus groups, including the Muslim Students Association, to condemn the Hamas Charter which says: `Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’ Signers of the Declaration will also be asked to repudiate the Iranian dictator Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has said `The accomplishment of a world without America and Israel is both possible and feasible.’ And Hezbollah’s leader Hassan Nasrallah, who called the Jews `a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment,’ and has said, “If the Jews `all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.’ These are hateful doctrines that threaten the lives not only of Jews, but of all Americans.”
In addition to condemning the genocidal agenda of these leaders and organizations, the Declaration calls on campus groups to affirm “the freedom of the individual conscience and the right to change religions or have no religion at all; the equal dignity of men and women; and the right of all people to live free from violence, intimidation and coercion.”
“Although a Declaration Against Genocide should be seen as a document with universal appeal,” Horowitz notes, “a coalition of groups with ties to the Islamo-fascist jihad are bound to protest this effort. Our goal is to test universities’ claims that they support religious and ethnic tolerance, and to challenge the campus left, which consistently overlooks statements by Islamic radicals which are nothing less than an invitation to mass murder.”
Here’s the petition text:
Declaration Against Genocide
Whereas genocide – the murder, or plan to murder, an entire people – is a crime against all humanity;
Whereas genocide is a crime that has metastasized in the modern era, leading to the murders of millions of Armenians, Cambodians, Tutsis, Sudanese, Bosnian Muslims and others;
Whereas the largest and most devastating genocide on record is the Holocaust of European Jews;
Whereas a new genocide of the Jews is being called for by Islamic leaders in the Middle East;
Whereas global forces are being mobilized by the Iranian regime to eliminate the Jewish state;
Whereas the genocide of the Jews is called for in texts understood by some Muslims as authoritative and echoes through sermons in some mosques today, and is proclaimed by certain leaders of the Islamic religion;
Whereas Catholicism and other Christian denominations have condemned the Holocaust and repudiated anti-Jewish pronouncements that have stained their religious past;
We call on all Student Governments and campus Muslim groups to:
1. Condemn and repudiate the Hadith which reads: “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985
2. Condemn and repudiate the Hamas Charter which says: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it”
3. Condemn Ahmadinejad who has said “The accomplishment of a world without America and Israel is both possible and feasible.”
4. Condemn Hezbollah and its leader Hassan Nasrallah who has said:“The Jews are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment.”
“There is no solution to the conflict except with the disappearance of Israel.”
“If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
5. Affirm:
* The right of all people to live in freedom and dignity
* The freedom of the individual conscience: to change religions or have no religion at all
* The equal dignity of women and men
* The right of all people to live free from violence, intimidation, and coercionWe call upon all campus political, cultural, ethnic and religious groups to stand with us in opposing all forms of religious supremacism, violence and intimidation.
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I signed it yesterday.
Still wating for MSA and CAIR.
I like it. David Horowitz is challenging those “champions of tolerance”, to not only talk the talk, but to walk the walk. Be interesting to see what comes of his challenge.
Of all the issues that circulate around a campus, this one, a petition against genocide, seems most reasonable. I would hope all patriotic young Americans and exchange students will sign up.
Never gonna happen!
Why the Hell would anyone sign this? The first rule of college politics is never sign on to anything that’s being supported by David Horowitz.
The petition is deeply offensive to me. It cheapens the term “genocide.” Even if Iran decided to invade Israel (and the claim that they’re planning such an attack is laughable), that would not be genocide. That would be a horrible illegal invasion. But it’s not genocide. Not by a long shot.
Why don’t we condemn the passages in the Bible praising the murder of anyone who doesn’t believe in God? Why don’t we condemn Ann Coulter for saying America should kill Islam leaders and convert Islamic people into Christians?
Fundamentalist Islam is a problem. Anyone who calls for death to all Jews is a problem. Any text calling for the deaths of those who have a different religious view is a problem. But leave it to a hack like Horowitz to take a problem and try to turn it into a cheap political point or “gotcha!” moment.
I wouldn’t sign this petition if my life depended on it. It’s cheap and unsound. There are better ways to raise awareness of the human rights abuses and religious intolerance found in places like Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran without resorting to this tripe.
The only credit I’ll give Horowitz is for this passage:
At least there’s one conservative who can admit that what the Turkish did to the Armenians was genocide. That puts him one step above most members of the GOP delegation of Congress.
Rusty – I never new it was a concervative position that the turks were justified!
I thought that the concervative position was that condemming a country whose government has changed several times for something that happened 100 years ago was a waste of time and a political stunt.
Rusty supports killing Jews, genocide. Thank you for your honesty in admitting it.
On the subject of the petition:
The Koran gives the faithful permission to lie to the nonbeliever if it advances islam. A radical can sign such a document without feeling they have done anything wrong and that you are a fool for the effort.
Well, campus faculties do tend to lean very heavily to the left, Rusty. But, not all of the students lean the same way.
#5
I would suggest you read the petition again and note the articles that state Christianity’s repudiation of acts of the past. Your ignorance of the progression of Old to New Testaments also shows. But, why am I bothering? You have no intention of thinking outside your box.
#5
Rusty Since you are such a bible scholar – could you please point to any of those passages for me? Where does it say that I as a Christian am asked to go kill unbelievers? I’ve read and studied the book for many years and I’ve missed those passages.
Please educate me.
Did you guys hear something? Sounded like a troll.
Because those passages are in the Old Testament, Rusty. You’d be hard pressed to find a sect of Christianity that adheres to them – there aren’t bands of Christian jihadists beheading those who don’t show up at Mass.
And if such a sect were to rear its ugly head, it’d be condemned – wholesale – by the Christians who follow the New Testament.
Christianity – or at least Catholicism – is a far deeper religion than what a few OT passages (incorrectly cited) and a smattering of misquoted New Testament passages make it out to be.
I’d love to explain it to you.
As for the petition – the mass murder of any group is essentially genocide. I oppose it in all forms.
No. The leader of Iran called for the resettlement of Israelis somewhere in Europe. That makes sense to him because Europeans perpetrated the Holocaust — they could lose a little territory as punishment. Palestinians did not perpetrate the Holocaust, but they lost land as a result.
I’m not agreeing with Ahmadinejad, but Horowitz has gone too far, probably on purpose. The more organization that refuse to sign his drivel, the more noise he can make about it.
Please show me anywhere in the Hebrew Bible (a.k.a. Old Testament) where it praises the murder of anyone who doesn’t believe in God.
MNUSMCDavid, so Jews are pro-genocide since they don’t treat the New Testament as gospel? Thanks for clearing that up.
I know it’s a silly example and it’s not something that Jews or Christians believe anymore, but many Muslims don’t buy into killing “the enemy” either. Horowitz is, as usual, painting with a stupidly broad brush.
I couldn’t disagree more strongly. If Germans were denying that the Holocaust was a genocidal event, I assure you we would be pressing them on it no matter how many times their government had changed.
We should be pressing the Japanese harder to acknowledge the atrocities of the Rape of Nanking as well.
Are you aware that Palestinians strongly supported the Holocaust?
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
Please quote the portion of the petition where it refers to all Muslims or to Muslims in general.
Looking at my Oxford English Dictionary, they define “genocide: n. the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation.” Based on that, I would think the elimination of Israel (whether real or imagined, at this time) would satisfy the definition of genocide.
I suppose we don’t condemn Christian leaders for the Bible because they don’t teach their flocks to murder non-believers anymore, as imams from Canada to Australia to London to any damn place else they exist, do. The Crusades were what, a millenia ago? Any chance we can move on and deal with modern problems in a modern context? Any at all?
Odd that you would have such a visceral reaction to a fairly harmless document asking people not to destroy each other.
Really? In the Torah, the Chosen People, at God’s command, were bloodthirsty. God instructed them to kill women and keep children as slaves.
From Numbers 31:16-18:
Or how about 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
So, when will Jewish groups sign a petition disavowing slavery and murder? And I hope all you Christians out there have torn the wicked Old Testament out of your copy of the Bible.
Again, Rusty – there is much more to Christianity than the Biblical citations you provide.
I speak from a Catholic perspective, because that’s what I understand best. I’d love to explain the difference between the OT and the NT to you – and how it impacts our faith…making it vastly different from Islam and other religions.
My offer still stands.
Let me just reiterate that Fundamentalist Islam is a problem and contemporary Jews and Christians are not. They are not equal. I just object to using centuries old religious text to describe how a certain religion feels. That silliness can easily be applied to the Bible. It cheapens the discourse.
Do I wish more people on my side of the aisle took Fundamentalist Islam seriously? Of course. The human rights abuses in many Islamist countries are unacceptable. But this stupid petition does nothing but give Horowitz another opportunity to make a political point. And that’s why the petition is so ugly and offensive.
I swear, I hear trolls. Anybody else?
Rusty,
Noo, I was referring to the Christian position of repudiating the Holocaust and it’s anti Semitic past. How you got Jewish people being pro genocidal is an amazing leap. But the point remains, you don’t like Horowitz for whatever reason, and that’s that.
Rusty – what will all of these admissions accomplish? Will anyone be helped? Will anyone be better off?
Atrocities can be found in the past of any people if you want to find them. How are we better off looking at the worst of the past instead of seeing the changes since their occurance? Is Japan the same country that went into WWII? Is Germany? Are we the same nation that fought the Civil War?
Well, I guess I’ve fed this troll enough for one day.
And there’s much more to Islam than the citations Horowitz provides! That’s my point!
fourstringfuror — it sounds like this —
Troll-la-la….
I like David Horowitz! I’m happy when Rusty is upset!
I’d be happier if modern day Islamists would repudiate death in the name of religion!
It’s a sad commentary on the state of Islam when Muslims need to be asked to sign a petition against genocide.
You are right, we should look at the current beliefs of a religious group… In this case, as far as I know, there currently is strict adherence to the centuries old texts.
Sounds like the dying groan of the beasts in the game Doom (don’t know the name – the first ones you encounter, the ones that throw the fireballs.)
Rooaaarrrgghhhhh…….
It’s a sad commentary on the state of the campus conservative movement that people are trying to use genocide to score political points.
Frankly, I don’t see a great deal of difference between this petition and Berkeley expressing “solidarity” with every oppressed person on the planet. It’s words, and as Neil Young recently admitted, words won’t and don’t change the world.
I’m guilty, though, too. I read lots of books, and lots of blogs, and type on the internet, but I don’t do anything to actually impact the injustice in the world. Sometimes I wonder if I should even comment, as my understanding of the world is brought to me by 3rd parties, not my own experience.
Anyway, I don’t think Rusty and lgm should be dismissed as trolls. They come back and defend their positions. They are not “drive-by” commenters, if you will.
Come and live in the South.. the Old Testament is very popular down here – especially Leviticus.
Might be worth watching…
Rusty, as usual, you post excellent, well made points.
Those are called Imps. See, a “troll” helped you out today!
Horowitz is a worse troll though. He’s the one bugging Muslim groups minding their own business into singing a deeply flawed and on-it’s-face ridiculous petition or risk being dragged through the mud. That’s a real troll.
If we keep ignoring theses serious threats, it just might.
Folks, please do not engage Rusty. He clearly doesn’t have the understanding of Christianity that he thinks he does. If he did there is no way he could compare/equate Christianity to Islam in present day terms. Liberals love to belabor the point about the wicked past of Christianity, all the while propping up Islam as a religion that should not be considered a threat to our very well-being. The idea is “laughable” to Rusty. All he can muster up by way of chastisement is “I think Islam is a problem.” You don’t say…
No. No. No. What cheapens that discourse is your idea that we are condemning the Qu’ran and the Qu’ran alone. No. We are condemning the actions of those Muslims who kill, maim and commit other atrocities in the name of Mohammed. You are cheapening the discourse by trying to frame the debate on a rather disingenous basis, I might add.
Rusty – I get your point. However, this is the difference: Christians acknowledge the OT and what it contains (basically the Mosaic law and Judaism) as part of our history leading up to the birth of Christ and the new covenant of Christianity. That’s when the Mosaic law passed away (so to speak) and our religion has “evolved” throughout the ages.
We have Traditions (big “T”) that reinforce the NT and that’s what makes us Christian.
You do get sects – Protestant, mostly evangelical or non-denominational – who take the New Testament literally. The term sola scriptura is what applies here. But even they do not condone or praise the murder of non-believers.
And those passages you cite come out of a need for the people of the OT to defend themselves against the other, violent tribes who were out to get them. The Mosaic law and the Jewish people operated in a manner radically different from their contemporaries. Mosaic law was applied to everyone equally – at a time when other “tribes” allowed those in upper castes special rules and privileges. It honored life at a time when infant sacrifice was the norm. It gave a respect for the lowly and downtrodden, where in other tribes they were treated as expendable commodities. Other tribes were afraid of the OT Jews, essentially, because their faith was so radical.
However, you do not see that split in the Koran. There is no Old or New Testament. It’s all one book, and the teachings still apply. Things like the oppression of women, slavery, and the like still exist in many areas dominated by the Islamic religion.
While there are some “moderate”, “liberal”, “non-practicing” Muslims (take your pick) – by and large, what’s preached in mosques and Islamic schools throughout the world is the very real, very violent teachings of the Koran which – by the nature of Islam – cannot be changed or altered in any way (whereas the Bible has gone through many versions).
You don’t hear nearly enough condemnation from leaders in the Islamic world who claim Islam is a religion of peace, then turn a blind eye to things like mass riots over teddy bears, cartoons, and St. Valentine’s Day.
There isn’t a doubt in my mind that if Christians acted in the same manner as Muslims do, Christianity would be outlawed and we’d all be thrown in jail.
And I think it’s important for both sides of the aisle to demand that groups like CAIR walk the talk and condemn acts of terrorism, oppression in the name of Islam, and the like.
Otherwise, there will be a genocide – be it of Israelis or non-Christians in general.
Dude, that’s creepy. I could only take about 90 seconds.
“It’s a sad commentary on the state of Islam when Muslims need to be asked to sign a petition against genocide.”
Setting the bizarre relativistic dodges aside, Rusty, don’t you agree that having to ask Muslims to denounce genocide is a striking commentary on the state of what drives htem (Islam)?
There are no “Palestinians”. That is a straw man political construct for Arabs to justify the destruction of Israel. The area was a useless garbage dump before the Jews returned. The land belongs to the Jews, period.
Alright Rusty, we’ve established that you don’t like Horowitz or anything for which he stands. Your citing obscure scriptures to try to smear other beliefs as just as bad as Islam.
But, tell me, when was the last time a Christian strapped a bomb on themselves and blew up Muslims? When was the last time a Jew did it?
But, when was the last time a Muslim did that? Probably about 5 minutes ago.
My preacher has never encouraged me to attack a Mosque. But, in Islamic countries, Muslims are encouraged to attack Churches.
That depends on the meaning of “defend.”
Oh, don’t forget sausage.
Well said, Englishqueen. For the trolls out there, she basically said that followers of the Christian faith have moved with the times and are not steeped in the past millenia, unlike the mullahs who still preach from a book that espouses ideas that are so yesterday.
WOW, I stop by for a second and find all my buddies feeding trolls.
On to another thread.
mattymotto — you’re right about Rusty. He does stand his ground no matter the opposition. And, he sometimes has a good point.
lgm, on the other hand, only sparingly returns to defend his position. He does do the classic drive-by…..
Having been a longtime victim of regular drive-by management, I know it well….
No one has to ask Muslims to do anything. Horowitz decided to ask and he decided to present Muslims with a document that no Muslim organization would ever (or should ever) sign. It’s just as stupid as me asking Jews to denounce slavery based on the Old Testament.
And for people thinking I am trying to equate the evils of Fundamentalist Islam with Judaism, you’ve got it all wrong. I’m trying to equate the stupid way that Horowitz is attacking Islam. My attacks on the Old Testament are ridiculous. Which is precisely the point.
At the very least we drive up page views on this site. Think of this way: engaging me in conversation puts more money in our hostess’s pocket.
a sphincter says what?
Shoot.
I did not meant to say that there was anything evil about Judaism. I meant comparing the evil aspects of Islam with Judaism as a whole.
Not exactly a topic where I want to be misunderstood.
Rusty
I think the whole point of the challenge by David Horowitz is to encourage moderate Muslims to condemn the ancient teachings of the Koran, which are still being espoused by fundamentalists. I don’t see the challenge as an attack at all, rather a call to moderation.
Rusty said:
“Setting the bizarre relativistic dodges aside, Rusty, don’t you agree that having to ask Muslims to denounce genocide is a striking commentary on the state of what drives htem (Islam)?”
If Jews were selling slaves you’d have a point, Rusty. You’re certainly welcome to build a Time Machine to travel thousands of years into antiquity to right every perceived wrong, but the rest of the world has to address the real problems of today.
Well, to be more correct, this particular problem is recycled from the last century, though the language remains much the same:
Obama’s not the only plagiarist in the news
And, in which part of “the South” do you live, sausage? The New Testament is the premise for Christian churches in my part, not the Old Testament.
BTW, I was disappointed in the video link. I was just sure you would draw comparisons to Christian children being brain-washed to wear bomb vests and plant IEDs, like young children of Islam have been led to do.
Indeed, when will the adherents of this form of hatred step forward and rebuke their tenets? Sadly, I hold no hope that it will happen. To them bravery is cutting off someone’s head. Stepping forward before the world and acknowledging their retrograde religious beliefs, this would make the cowards.
Up is down. Night is day. Wrong is right. Any whatever Mohamed says goes…except when it comes from a Teddy bear by the same name.
You read the words, but do not understand the historical context. The Midianites were targeted by God because of their evil deeds. While God is love, he is also Justice…
But what could these people have done that was so terrible that God should destroy them?
They practiced human sacrifice, sorcery and all manner of perversions.
God is not bloodthirsty. God is just. He used the Israelites to carry out his vengeance. Note the part where he makes clear it is not because of Israel’s righteousness, but because of the Midianites evil.
Rusty – I’m with flmom on this. I constantly hear that terrorism only comes from small groups of fundamentalist Muslims and that the ancient writings that call for the deaths of nonbelievers are out-dated and should not be used as a basis for discussion…
However, the supposed masses of peaceful Muslims who do not follow these writings have remained mostly hidden to me. It would seem that you think any Muslim who is not actively beheading people does not follow the “centuries old religious texts” that you speak of as though they are defunct.
The big problem is that Muslims should be speaking out, condemning the disgusting actions of those who commit atrocious acts in the name of Islam. I am quick to condemn people who kill in the name of Christianity (e.g. abortion clinic bombers.)
[My apologies - I am at work and typing quickly, I hope that wasn't too rambly and was at least a little clear.]
Just to add to what dominigan has said, this was a one time event, specifically ordered by God in person. There are rules for warfare and the treatment of captives in the Old Testament, which are quite humane.
Also, dominigan, you must remember such things were one-time and quite specific. In Islam the order to kill is open-ended and ongoing as even a cursory check of the news on any given day will attest.
Find any Christian sect that supports the complete elimination of another race or religion. Even those crackpot funeral protesters don’t hold such beliefs. Muslims preach that sort of crap every day. No comparison.
Rusty, lgm, and sausage. The neighborhood’s going downhill.
From Horowitz and article:
As usual, cRusty has his head stuck in a can of pork and beans.
Asking for a symbolic refusal of genocide is asking Moslems to reject the verse in the KORAN that calls for the elimination of Israel.
Asking for a political refusal of HAMAS’ call for genocide against the US and Israel is something altogether different.
On its face the call for the Moslem Student Association to reject HAMAS’ genocidal charter is well-overdue.
The federal government should shut the MSA down and deport every HAMAS connected organization that is nesting and breeding in the USA.
The next attack on US soil will be HAMAS and Hezbollah led.
That cRusty finds Iran’s threat to world security “laughable” just leads me to quote my friend Feebiebabe who says: “He needs to wake up and smell his makeup.”
Works for me.
I think that’s incorrect, Bear. The verse cited above is from the Hadith. There might be something in the Koran though, someone can enlighten me Surah and verse on that point.
bear1909
well put bear … I think that this petition is an opportunity for those “moderate” followers of Islam that we hear so much about to make themselves known and heard … up until now they have been nothing but an elusive figment of imagination … I think that these “millions” of moderate followers are as scarce as those 72 virgins they aspire to meet up with …
Try removing ALL the talk about “religion” from this discussion, just for a moment…what’s left? It is a discussion about evil. Evil perpetuated by man against man, out of pure, unadulterated hatred!
None of us lived when this ancient evil was committed. Convenient “remembrance” of evils past, documented by the various religious historians, is the only rationalization for modern evil to persist and it continues to be unleashed upon man, in the name of religion.
Evil is evil! Contrast the difference between the Middle Eastern ideologues, and the leadership of the West. Which one believes that all men have inalienable rights, and which does not?
Which one believes in free agency, and which does not? Which ones believe in helping those less fortunate, and which believes in abusing those less fortunate, and using the mentally impaired as implements of destruction? This is NOT, and SHOULD NOT be a religious question.
The answer is pretty simple, even for those whose politics blind their judgement. Horowitz’s pledge is an effort to help define and delineate those who believe good should triumph over evil.
Yes – with very few changes it could have been offered to Germanys’ National Socialists and their supporters re: the Holocaust. I wouldn’t have expected many of them to sign a like petition either.
dominigan you brought the truth behind the history. the evil acts of those in the land and bringing Isreal in to take that land was God’s Judgement on the evil acts. In some of the cases where God ordered the death of all including the children is because of the ‘diseases’ incurred from participating in such evil as these cultures followed, one for ecample was beastiality.
but i digress. the true difference is that Christianity has experienced its reformation and Islam has not. As a matter of fact whenever reformation begins in Islam those involved are slaughtered. Kind a like what we are seeing now.
Absolutely. I should have mentioned that. I just wanted to respond to the verses quoted by Rusty.
I have to admit, I was a little disappointed with all the “Christians” who dismissed the importance of the Old Testament. Over the last year our Sunday school class has been going through a very detailed study of Exodus and Leviticus. Although many of the things there sound odd to us now, they had very real symbolic and practical purposes once you try to understand them.
Jesus stated that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. While some things (dietary laws and the covenant) have changed, I certainly don’t claim that I’m no longer bound by the 10 Commandments.
The law in the Old Testament is required to demonstrate the grace of the New Testament. If we are not first convicted, we cannot be saved.
BACK TO THE PETITION;
It is indeed. Yet we MUST ask. They must answer.
I will PROUDLY sign this petition and I now wait (again) for the moderate muslims of America to back up their words, for them to DECLARE BY SIGNATURE that they themselves, and ‘their islam’, does not or will not call for any genocide now or in the future of any persons. PERIOD.
This is NOT too much to ask of ANYONE in the 21st century.
On February 20th, 2008 at 11:43 am, Rusty said
Those were one-time instructions, not eternal commandments. No Jews today cite these passages to advocate killing non-believers.
By contrast the Koranic passages in question are considered by many Muslims to apply for all time.
And there lies the problem, shooter!
If the first rule of college politics is based on argumentum ad hominem, maybe college politics needs a new first rule.
lgm said:
And the genocide follows when the Jews refuse to leave. I suppose you consider that hairsplitting.
Here’s the difference: Islamic extremists justify their actions and teach violence to prospective followers based on the Koranic passages. These are the words of respected Muslim teachers and leaders. By contrast I challenge you to cite any contemporary Jews or Christians who justify attacking non-believers, based on the Bible or any other authority.
2nd request: Please quote the portion of the petition where it refers to all Muslims or to Muslims in general.
dominigan,
You beat me to it.
Troll food here, get your troll food here. la la la la la
Azygos
hope you’re serving them that through a drive thru window …
Really? Name just a few of these Muslims, will you? You can’t.
Islamic scholars, leaders, et al, have said that to be a Muslim, you must obey the teachings/writings of Muhammad/Allah! Failing to do so, you will incur the same punishment reserved for the unbelievers.
So, which “TRUE MUSLIMS” are going to sign this kind of petition?
Rusty #20
I read your post and it really concerned me. I immediately placed an ad in all my local newspapers asking that all Midianites contact me regarding this imminent threat from the Jews. Strangely I didn’t get any calls. Maybe I should have included the Hittites and Amorites as well.
Seriously Rusty, the difference between the Christian and Muslim texts is glaringly obvious. The Muslim texts encourage the subjugation and/or killing of Jews, Christians and infidels. Last time I checked there are a lot of those around today. Why do you feel compelled to equate the two when they clearly aren’t equal?
It seems to me that Horowitz is giving the much discussed moderate muslims a chance to stand up and be heard. To seperate themselves from the violent, misguided radicals that have hi-jacked Islam. Why is that a bad thing? If anyone at anytime asked me to condemn abortion clinic bombers and sign a petition stating I completely disagree with their goals I would do it in a heartbeat, without fear of reprisal. Why won’t moderate Muslims do the same? Why shouldn’t Horowitz ask them to?
Ahhh… but to trap a troll, you need appropriate bait!
Yes, and you left out the most troublesome tribe of all…the Danites! Just how many Philistine soldiers did Samson kill with that modern weapon, the jawbone of an ass?
Rusty, lgm, and sausage have managed to hijack another thread. Good job, boys.
I apologize for starting (or continuing) something that I knew would happen. When people have a vastly different worldview – real conversation and communication is impossible. While many here differ greatly in perspective (Catholics and Protestants) and even vehemently so, we are able to converse and communicate. Those that put man at the center of things…can’t communicate at all with those that put God at the center. There is no common basis. It’s obvious by reading this blog that Rusty, Sausage, and others have no idea what the other side is talking about.
#79 On February 20th, 2008 at 2:20 pm, conservativesRus said:
“When people have a vastly different worldview – real conversation and communication is impossible.”
“Those that put man at the center of things…can’t communicate at all with those that put God at the center. There is no common basis. It’s obvious by reading this blog that Rusty, Sausage, and others have no idea what the other side is talking about.”
Exactly!!!
Rusty,lgm, and sausage go to Daily KOS where you will fit in much better. They have the liberal minded hate that seems to infect your souls.
dominigan,
Shhh, I have hidden blue pills in the food so maybe they will wake up to reality. (not those blue pills)
You mean like logic, common sense, and facts to back up your argument?
Rusty,
Most of your posts are stupid. If asked, Jewish groups would readily sign a petition denouncing genocide and slavery.
However, I agree with you that Horowitz’s document is not well crafted.
Yeah, We need a mental detector at the gate.
You know the idea of a letter with signatures condemming genocide is noce. It has high ideals and sounds greatr. However I personally would never sign such a thing.
I can honestly say this to anyone who would ever hurt a member of my family. Run, hide, turn yourself into the authorities. Give your soul to God, for when I get ahold of you, your family, your families family, the dog, the cat, the pet gerbal you abuse. All will feel my hate and wrath from the deepest, lowest levels of hell. Vengence is a dish served cold but before the dish cools down things get hot.
You will never get muslims to sign such a thing. As only crimes against another muslim is wrong. There are no crimes if commited against and infidel. SO if there is no crime in their eyes to begin with why would they then condem an action that was not a crime?
Concerned Citizen said (#58):
You might start looking in south eastern Europe. Part of Christian doctrine is that everyone should be Christian. Catholic dogma in particular calls for Jews to be “saved” by being converted to Christianity. Granted, not by force.
Quoting the Koran does not prove Islam is violent any more than quoting Joshua proves that Judaism is violent. You have to make a different case.
You should not have the worst Muslims (BinLaden, ..) speak for the religion as a whole any more than Slobodan Milosevic or Junipero Serra (murderous priest of Spanish colonial California) speak for Christians as a whole.
I will say one thing, and one thing only: any Christian who advocates violence against any other human is, by definition, NOT a Christian. It’s that simple. Conversely, any Muslim who advocates violence against any other human is, by definition, a faithful Muslim.
Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve . . . as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
#88 On February 20th, 2008 at 5:25 pm, fourstringfuror said:
“…any Christian who advocates violence against any other human is, by definition, NOT a Christian. It’s that simple. Conversely, any Muslim who advocates violence against any other human is, by definition, a faithful Muslim.”
Correct.
That’s all well and good, but the problem is too many Muslims are remaining silent and allowing the lunatics to the their religions spokesperson.
Hey lgm, how about all those peaceful muslims that were dancing in the street the afternoon of 11 September 2001? Could we use them to illustrate the muslim religion?
How about the shieks that said it was all our fault? No?
How about, as taylork said, the defening silence of the rest of the muslim world?
And where the heck were you going when you compared the desire for religious conversion with the desire to kill infidels?
- an infidel
Rusty said:I wouldn’t sign this petition if my life depended on it. It’s cheap and unsound. There are better ways to raise awareness of the human rights abuses and religious intolerance found in places like Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran without resorting to this tripe.
Well Rusty, your life does depend on it and you will know some day what I mean. Just be careful and don’t lose your head over all this!
lgm #87 said:
That’s the point. I’m not asking what any book says. I’m telling you to find me a Christian sect that encourages the wholesale slaughter of another race/religion. Not conversion, slaughter.
Nowhere will you find any non-muslim clergyman spewing such foolishness. Nowhere does Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religion preach that you will be rewarded in heaven for taking somebody else’s life.
Many Muslim clerics and leaders quote the Koran to prove that Islam is violent. Your argument is with them, not us.
I challenge you to cite any contemporary Christians or Jews who quote the Bible to justify attacks on non-believers.
Hooray! There can be peace after all. Sounds like a lot of Christians share that disgusting contempt for Jews with their Muslim neighbors. 2000 years of libels, 6 million dead – how much more do you people want?
I can’t believe the sickening statements my wonderful Christian neighbors are making about Judaism. Did you ever open up the Bible and open up your brain at the same time?
There are many things in the Bible, including laws, prophecy and history, among others. Were you aware that laws are not the same thing as history? What a concept!
America has fought several wars, some for survival. That doesn’t mean we have a religious imperative to kill all non-Americans. The Israelites were attacked many times by other nations, including during their years of wandering in the Sinai desert, and – surprise – chose to fight back in order to survive. Are you shocked? That doesn’t mean there is a Jewish imperative to kill non-Jews. In fact, I will tell you authoritatively that there is no such law. Indeed, one Jewish prophet says, “Each man shall walk in the name of his god, and I shall walk in the name of the Lord” – vastly more tolerant than Christianity. We are even forbidden from proselytizing. But you have the audacity to talk about the “progression” from one scripture to another? Get the beam out of your own eye before pointing out the mote in someone else’s eye, as the Talmud teaches.
#60
purplepeep: but of course. i see that i misquoted referring to the Golden Book of Humanity when in fact it was Hadith.
tsk. tsk. how to keep all of that wisdom straight in my pea brain.
thanks for the clarifier.
now back to my regularly scheduled bout of outrage with Adobe Premier Pro.
#95 Surak!
I fully appreciate the razor sharp statements you’ve offered here.
As a practicing Catholic, a devout follower of American Indian spiritual teachings and Navajo religious customs, and a man married to a Jewish woman, I want to be accountable in this discussion for my silence on the matter.
But rather than confuse accountability with putting a gigantic “NOT ME!” button on my chest, I want to say that I never once learned in any spiritual setting that maligning Judaism or its followers was expected of me.
I offer this not to defend myself or to imply that you have lumped me in with others.
I offer this point because *how* I was taught is almost as important as *what* I’ve been taught over the 5 decades I’ve spent on Earth. Human teachers who lived close to the Way of the Christ, The Prophets, and the Great Mysteries, exemplify the walk along with their facility with the talk.
It has never made sense to me how someone in a position of authority as a spiritual teacher could imply, insinuate, or dispense lessons which called for the degradation and destruction of people from other faiths simply because they held their own faith and sought to practice it; how they could teach THAT and not implode from a complete lack of integrity is beyond my understanding.
I hope “Christians” here have taken to heart the words you have expressed here with such erudition and verve.
My thanks for telling it like it is.
Shalom and good evening to you and yours.
Bear1909 out.
On that Great Day called the Judgement Day everyone outside of having a relationship with Jesus Christ will be condemned. Those who do not have their name in the book of life will be condemned because of the sin in their life and a life long of rejecting Christ. The Lord is long suffering and patient waiting that all be saved and not suffer this eternal judgement. Check out Revelation 21 8 where it says But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcrers and idolators and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is hte second death. Would the Lord be accused of hate here? The Lord will have His way whether we like it or not.
point of order!
the phrase is not “talk the talk, but to walk the walk”
it is “talk the walk, walk the talk” as in you are going to talk the walk you better be able to walk the talk
grrr