Report: Columbia U. noose professor sanctioned for fraud; Update: Two dozen instances of plagiarism; prof claims she’s a “victim of structural racism”

By Michelle Malkin  •  February 20, 2008 10:18 PM

Scroll down for updates…

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We still don’t know who hung the noose at the office of Columbia University professor of psychology and education Madonna Constantine. It remains one of the notable unsolved mysteries of 2007. But now we know something about Constantine. According to a new report by the Columbia Spectator student publication, Constantine has been sanctioned for plagiarism. Fraud. Dishonestly passing something off as genuine (hat tip: reader Danny).

Food for thought:

Professor Madonna Constantine has been sanctioned by Teachers College for plagiarism, according to a memo obtained by Spectator Tuesday evening. The memo, dated Feb. 18, was hand-delivered to professors on the Office of the President’s stationery.

TC confirmed in a statement later Tuesday evening that after an internal investigation TC had “found numerous instances in which she [Constantine] used others’ work without attribution in papers she published in academic journals over the past five years.”

The statement specifies that “the investigation, which began in 2006, was prompted by complaints from students and one former faculty member who said language from materials they wrote was included without attribution in the articles.”

The statement explained that “the investigation, which was conducted by Hughes Hubbard & Reed, a law firm with a substantial practice representing universities and academic institutions, concluded that Professor Constantine’s explanation for the strikingly similar language was not credible.”

Constantine has the right to appeal to the Faculty Advisory Committee, the President’s memo noted. An emergency TC faculty meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday.

In October, Constantine, a professor of counseling and clinical psychology, was thrust into the spotlight as the victim of an apparent hate crime when a noose was found on her office door. Students and colleagues rallied to her defense, describing her as a scholar who addressed issues of race head-on. As of last month, the New York Police Department had not identified any suspects in the case.

Tuesday’s memo commended Professor Christine Yeh, former TC professor and current faculty member at the University of San Francisco, and former TC students Tracy Juliao and Karen Cort for their cooperation. Yeh did not respond to a request for comment Tuesday evening. One TC faculty member said that nine other students did not come forward against Constantine because they were unable to seek indemnity in time.

Jasmine Alvarez, a TC student in Constantine’s department, said she was shocked when she learned about the memo from a Spectator reporter. “I’m shocked. I’m surprised,” said Alvarez, who is also the diversity representative for the TC Student Senate. “I wouldn’t have expected that. From the many publications that she already has written and from her reputation, that just doesn’t add up to me.”

Yeah. A lot of things don’t add up.

This is definitely a piece of the puzzle that remains.

***

The NYPost has some more eyebrow-raising details. Yeah, it smells to high heaven, people, as I’ve said all along:

The plagiarism probe was already under way last year when a 4-foot twine noose was discovered on the door of psychology and education professor Madonna Constantine’s office, officials at the university’s Teachers College said.

They said they disciplined Constantine for stealing other people’s work for articles she published in academic journals.

They cited two dozen instances of plagiarism over the past five years that were substantiated in an 18-month investigation by a Manhattan law firm.

Teachers College spokesman Joe Levine would not say how Constantine was punished, but college officials said her position is secure.

In a statement e-mailed to Bloomberg News Service yesterday, Constantine said she was the victim of a racist conspiracy.

The school accused her of plagiarism because of the “structural racism that pervades this institution,” she charged. “As one of only two tenured black women full professors at Teachers College, it pains me to conclude that I have been specifically and systematically targeted.”

And check this out:

After the October incident, cops were rebuffed – by Constantine herself – in their efforts to catch the person behind the alleged hate crime.

The professor was one of several faculty members who objected to the idea of posting surveillance cameras in her hallway, according to sources familiar with the campus investigation.

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Comments


  1. #1
    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:32 pm, aunursa said:

    Another fake hate crime?

  2. #2
    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm, TexasTiger said:

    Dear Lord:

    Please don’t let Brandy Priestess read the story.

    Amen.

  3. #3
    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:40 pm, TexasTiger said:

    Reached for comment today in Clearwater, 2008 FOTY nominee Ethean Butler said that the real reason Madonna Constantine was sanctioned for fraud was that “she was black and carrying the Koran.”

  4. #4
    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:53 pm, winemkr said:

    I live in northern Michigan, I’m completely insulated from this BS.

    I’m also armed.

    I almost feel sorry for you people.

    Almost doesn’t count.

  5. #5
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:12 pm, whysoangry said:

    I didn’t say “noose”, I said someone left this leash here so the dog must be “loose”. That’s what I said detective. No, I don’t have a dog. I did? In the video? That’s odd… I must have found it and left it there meaning to bring it to lost and found.

  6. #6
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:14 pm, shooter said:

    “the investigation, which began in 2006,

    Could she have put the noose out there herself? a little sympathy seeking?
    Is this what we’re reading/seeing?

  7. #7
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:14 pm, Jim M. said:

    Has she been writing Obama’s speeches?

  8. #8
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:22 pm, d1carter said:

    So what exactly does “sanctioned” mean?

  9. #9
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:23 pm, d1carter said:

    She must write 1000 times, I will not bring rope to school again?

  10. #10
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:35 pm, gippergirl said:

    well, once they kick her out they’ll have room for their fave prof Mahmoud to teach…if I were a Columbia alum I’d be demanding all kinds of refunds for all the $$$$$ I put into that university……

  11. #11
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:38 pm, UberInfidel67 said:

    If she is guilty of hanging this noose herself, maybe that is why we haven’t heard more about it. Sometimes it is better to investigate one thing at a time. Now we all know what a piece of work she is, it will be easier to expose her for fraud. And no, I am not sticking up for her in any way. I just know that sometimes multiple investigations can sometimes hurt a case. Now it can be a free for all on her butt : )

  12. #12
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:42 pm, Jim M. said:

    Let’s see here…

    Plagarism is a pretty serious charge for those in academia. The investigation per the report began in 2006. While the investigation was apparently wrapping up, a noose is found hanging on the door of the subject. The noose incident garners all of the attention and moves it away from the whispers of plagarism.

    People have done stranger things to attempt to preserve their reputations. Academia’s version of wagging the dog.

  13. #13
    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:50 pm, bear1909 said:

    Our community is embroiled in a racial scenario where a white teacher at our school called a 10 year old black student a nigger in class.

    Some of us are taking this to the federal level because we know there is nothing in the basic fundamentals of teaching to suggest this is a sound way to teach kids in any setting, let alone a mixed race setting.

    Madonna Constantine hurts the efforts of other Americans who are looking to make sure that educational opportunity is afforded equally to all Americans under Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

    Why does she hurt those efforts? Because some Americans will look at her “noose” antics and her fraudulent professional posturing as an academic professional who happens to be Black, and they will say “Ya see. She’s just like all the rest.”

    So this teacher in our school has her beliefs reinforced that “they are all the same” “they just want to get over”, etc. etc. etc. And she feels justified in using this racial invective on a 10 year old child.

    Thank you Madonna. We are all connected. Hope you get to pick up the pieces of your life and find the words to speak to all of the mentors and loved ones who sacrificed for you to get to where you’ve been so far.

    And please, stop punishing the ones who are coming after you. They deserve a chance.

    Bear1909 out.

  14. #14
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:05 am, Mookie said:

    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:23 pm, d1carter said:

    She must write 1000 times, I will not bring rope to school again?

    Yes but she’ll have someone else write it.

  15. #15
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:18 am, radio relay said:

    Bear…

    The only thing anyone is thinking along those lines is that “ya see, she’s just like all the other leftwing, race baiting, nutcases” (of any race).

    She may be typical of the left, academic elite, but Nobody is saying she is typical of her race.

  16. #16
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:22 am, hadsil said:

    Hmm, premeditated sympathy for a racist attack to cushion a crime, in this case a plagiarism charge. It’s almost a cliche now.

  17. #17
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:58 am, WarTip said:

    You are assuming of course that she will receive some actual (meaningful) penalty for her (mis)deeds. The hollowed … ummm … I mean hallowed halls of academia may lead to a different result in the end.

    Again, history has shown us that once a racist hate crime becomes known as an incident by an ethnic minority to demonstrate the existence of racism, it goes from being a crime to a tragedy that they must resort to such drastic measures to make the obvious known to those who are insulated from the racism.

    History also has not shown Academia too anxious to condemn any of its own without extreme outside influence of late.

    While it would be nice to see purveyors of crime held accountable for their actions, I doubt this case will be handled any differently or more seriously than the treasonous and seditious acts of other “educators”.

    Just my opinion.

  18. #18
    On February 21st, 2008 at 4:10 am, graysonret said:

    I’m still shaking my head over this “noose business”. All of a sudden, people are using it to make political statements. If you don’t like the person, place a piece of rope nearby. Everyone panic!! What next? Having a pork BBQ? Next thing will be the banning of fried chicken. This whole business is nothing more than some people hoping to get their moment of fame, on the news. Nothing more.

  19. #19
    On February 21st, 2008 at 6:15 am, CarpiJugulum said:

    Are not her actions and plagerism right out of the Ward Churchill handbook of proper conduct for collage proffesors?

    Lieing, cheating, distortions of the facts, a spinning of the truth to fit a certain agenda. It sounds to me like she was way over punished. After all is not this what Ward has done and is doing? All he got was a slap on the wrist as he still lectures on Campus and has wide support from the brainwashed youth in the Peoples Republic of Boulder.

  20. #20
    On February 21st, 2008 at 6:22 am, Thunderbird 1 said:

    In the greater Denver/Boulder community, we have a name for such charges: “Pulling a Churchill” (Ward, that is – not Win)

  21. #21
    On February 21st, 2008 at 6:34 am, rooster said:

    Of course this degenerate put the noose up herself to deflect. She had to do something to deflect attention from her self inflicted problems.

  22. #22
    On February 21st, 2008 at 6:59 am, zorro said:

    Just pathetic. Snob college professor humiliated. First Ward Churchill, now “Professor” Madonna Constantine. It seems like a slow start, but it’s a good start in clear out the phonies from institutions of higher learning. A few hundred more and some real progress will have been made.

  23. #23
    On February 21st, 2008 at 7:15 am, TexasTiger said:

    On February 21st, 2008 at 6:59 am, zorro said:

    Just pathetic. Snob college professor humiliated. First Ward Churchill, now “Professor” Madonna Constantine. It seems like a slow start, but it’s a good start in clear out the phonies from institutions of higher learning. A few hundred more and some real progress will have been made.

    Lord knows that the Augean stables of academia need a thorough cleaning. But notice that the only moonbats forced out have been plagiarists.

    Moonbattery is not a crime in academia–only claiming another moonbat’s work as your own.

  24. #24
    On February 21st, 2008 at 8:13 am, jfish said:

    “From the many publications that she already has written and from her reputation, that just doesn’t add up to me.”

    So, her student is surprised because the professor has so many publications?? Duh, one of the reasons she has so many publications is likely a result of her plagarism. It is substantially easier to re-pub someone else’s scholarship than it is to do original work, with all the research and diligence necessary.

    Meanwhile, in Academia, the reputation she enjoys is a direct result of her publications. Again, if you take away the “numerous instances” of fraud that were found, would Constantine have ever had a reputation in the first place? It’s a circular argument to want to protect this woman on reputation when she apparently has little in her career that can be academically defended. I understand that she may be a great person, but from the University’s perspective, this is a simple honesty in education issue.

  25. #25
    On February 21st, 2008 at 8:25 am, Chief RZ said:

    This type of fraud has been going on since the 70s beginning with the infamous case by Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley. He has yet to admit he knew she was a liar from the start.

  26. #26
    On February 21st, 2008 at 8:39 am, bloghooligan said:

    so, was the noose a way to delay the decision on this plagiarism case? and/or was it meant to preemptively drum up sympathy?

  27. #27
    On February 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am, Boomer said:

    Good to see the fake hate crime being punished in a round about way, but it would mean more to call her on the carpet for her real act of fraud and expose this woman for the hateful racist she is. I am really tired of those that play “race card” and the “race hustlers” in the news. I tend to judge people on who they are not color, creed, national origin, sexual preference, etc. I have a feeling most of those that post on this site feel the same when it comes to this issue.

    Having not grown up in the post Civil War reconstruction era in the “Deep South” I am still trying to wrap my mind around the symbol of a hangman’s noose as a hate crime. I guess the Confederate battle flag is no longer the symbol of white oppression from Nathan Bedford Forest days as founder of the KKK. With most of my life being spent in the Western part of the country and being well read on local history I still associate it with the hanging of murderers, cattle rustlers, and horse thieves from the frontier justice of the “Wild West” era of American history.

  28. #28
    On February 21st, 2008 at 9:06 am, almeehan said:

    And she typifies the gang who will propel the Hillarys and Obamas into power. Heaven help our country.

  29. #29
    On February 21st, 2008 at 9:38 am, MrVIBEMAN said:

    Maybe they’ll fire her and hire Ward “Kenis” Churchill.

    Would that really surprise anyone?

  30. #30
    On February 21st, 2008 at 9:40 am, MrVIBEMAN said:

    Let’s see….Plaigiarism=Racist Charges…

    Nope, not making the connection.

  31. #31
    On February 21st, 2008 at 9:58 am, fourstringfuror said:

    Where are Rusty and his cohorts this morning? Figured they would be here by now to defend her ;)

    Seriously, though, all plagiarism charges are to be taken seriously. The fact that she did it 24 times in five years is atrocious. She should have been fired about four years, 11 months ago!

  32. #32
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:13 am, ThatSamIAm said:

    This racial “you can’t touch me no matter what I do” crap is out of control. Until the majority of people (minorities included) agree we will not accept race/sex/religion as an excuse to pardon unethical or criminal behavior this will continue.

  33. #33
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:15 am, MikeD said:

    They tell me that at some time in the past Columbia was a decent university.

  34. #34
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:17 am, Barry F. said:

    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm, TexasTiger said:
    Dear Lord:

    Please don’t let Brandy Priestess read the story.

    Amen.

    ROFLMAO

    Tiger! Stop! Please! My sides hurt! :lol:

  35. #35
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:18 am, md1964 said:

    Evidently, having a PHD means you don’t have to adhear to any normal standards, Laws, or decorum.

    This is your Brain…

    ….(See above)…and this is your brain on Liberalism.

  36. #36
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:21 am, corona said:

    As Gomer Pyle would say, “Surprise, surprise!”

  37. #37
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:23 am, Barry F. said:

    Okay. At first glance there may appear to be impropriety in that she was already under investigation for multiple counts of plagiarism and then, out of nowhere, a noose shows up on her door, looking like a cheap diversionary tactic.

    But, honestly, folks, what self-respecting professor would do such a thing?….. Oh. Never mind. What was I thinking? ;-)

  38. #38
    On February 21st, 2008 at 10:25 am, Barry F. said:

    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:05 am, Mookie said:

    On February 20th, 2008 at 11:23 pm, d1carter said:

    She must write 1000 times, I will not bring rope to school again?

    Yes but she’ll have someone else write it.

    Mookie,

    You and I don’t usually agree on a lot of issues but I liked that. Nice one! :lol:

  39. #39
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:00 am, yt1300inHtown said:

    On February 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm, TexasTiger said:
    Dear Lord:

    Please don’t let Brandy Priestess read the story.

    Amen.

    Teh d4663r!

  40. #40
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:03 am, englishqueen01 said:

    Dear Lord:

    Please don’t let Brandy Priestess read the story.

    Amen.

    :lol:

    Where are Rusty and his cohorts this morning? Figured they would be here by now to defend her.

    While I disagree with Rusty on many issues, I’ve always found his discourse respectful and polite. I really “enjoy” (for lack of a better word) debating with him and I really believe it’s important I continue those discussions.

    Believe me – if you ran into commenters on some of the other blogs I frequent, they are extremely rude and childish (like the atheist who refers to God a “sky wizard” and Jesus as a “zombie”). Rusty is far beyond that and I don’t think he would defend what amounts to a total lack of intellectual integrity.

    Anyway – to the topic. I’m a graduate student. In the very first class, it was stressed to us that plagarism would result in immediate disciplinary action and repeated (read: more than one) offense would result in dismissal from the program.

    I don’t doubt the same policy applies to other students (especially English students like me).

    So over two dozen incidents of plagarism and she’s the “victim”? I don’t think so.

  41. #41
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:14 am, fourstringfuror said:

    In the very first class, it was stressed to us that plagarism would result in immediate disciplinary action and repeated (read: more than one) offense would result in dismissal from the program.

    The same was told to us my very first year as an undergraduate. It was enforced, what’s more. Funny how the same principle doesn’t apply to this professor.

    I don’t think he would defend what amounts to a total lack of intellectual integrity.

    I’m not so sure about this. I distinctly recall a certain debate over birth control pills and who should pay for them; his position being that students are going to have sex anyway, so you might as well help them do it safely and without consequences. Not much intellect or integrity in that position if you ask me.

    But alas, I was just looking to give Rusty & co. a good ribbing this morning. It’s good for them! ;)

  42. #42
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:14 am, chapoutier said:

    Where are Rusty and his cohorts this morning? Figured they would be here by now to defend her.

    All right,

    I was one of (no-longer-deserves-Dr.) Constantine’s biggest defenders on the other threads about this.

    No mas.

    This is fishy and entirely too coincidental. Maybe she’s innocent of the noose thing, but right now she has zero credibility.

    So I apologize to those who had better sense than I to smell a rat in all this.

    Just a quick but…I still think that one of my previous points on this stands: We cannot let fabricated race baiting incidents obfuscate the reality that actual racism still exists. On all sides of the political spectrum, across all races and regions.

  43. #43
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:31 am, terrig said:

    Well Chapoutier, I think that you’ve go an ax to grind. There are a lot of these “race baiting” instances going around lately and honestly, I think that Michelle Obama has a problem with people who don’t look like her, even if it’s her own mother-in-law. The problem is, is that these stories get ginned up and then when it’s found that the people like Constantine did this themselves, nothing is heard. All that is heard is how racists this country is. I am sick of it. Yes, there is racism in this country, even our beautiful 50th state has it too. However, people like you, Rusty & LGM are so quick to pounce on this and call everyone who questions this a racisit. Maybe you should understand that people are tired of the race card being pulled all the time and it makes it worse when people like Constantine throw it out there.

  44. #44
    On February 21st, 2008 at 11:54 am, chapoutier said:

    Terrig,

    Yes, there is racism in this country, even our beautiful 50th state has it too. However, people like you, Rusty & LGM are so quick to pounce on this and call everyone who questions this a racisit.

    Not sure what exactly you are saying here. But let me take a stab.

    First, and most important, I never called anyone here a racist.

    I actually thought that the initial doubt on this board re: this incident stemmed mostly from everyone’s hatred of Columbia (I think this was in the wake of the Iranian president speaking there), not Constantine’s race.

    Second, I am no fan of the Jacksons and Sharptons. They often (not always) play fast and loose with the race card.

    But there are a lot more real instances of real racism and racial intimidation that go down than these fabricated ones. But the fake ones get reported on because they are a better story. And that inflates their real imapct.

    nd yes, I guess in retrospect too many things about this story should have made me more skeptical. But I think it is important not to become so cynical that one turns a blind eye to reality and automatically assumes every such incident is crying wolf. What is the saying? “Trust. But verify.”

  45. #45
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:03 pm, JohnnyD said:

    Teachers College spokesman Joe Levine would not say how Constantine was punished, but college officials said her position is secure.

    Why? She did this more than once. So why isn’t she fired?

    Oh wait, there’s that little matter of a noose.

    Guess that worked after all….

    Maybe she will now be addressed as Plagirist Constantine instead of Professor as punishment!

  46. #46
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:07 pm, englishqueen01 said:

    We cannot let fabricated race baiting incidents obfuscate the reality that actual racism still exists.

    I don’t disagree. Racism still exists, but the degree to which it exists is up for debate. I do not think it is as rampant and widespread as some claim. And I don’t believe there is rampant institutional racism or that I am inherently racist simply because I’m white and I supposedly benefit from “institutional racism.”

    Where there is real racism, it should be dealt with. But these fabricated stories – fabricated by people who claim racism is rampant – do lessen the seriousness of the debate. It’s like the boy who cried wolf. After so many cries of racism – especially when that “racism” is perpetrated by the “victims” – it’s hard to take some of it seriously.

    So rather than trying to gain political points, people like the good professor here should not cry racism when something doesn’t go their way but save it for real incidents of racism.

    I distinctly recall a certain debate over birth control pills and who should pay for them; his position being that students are going to have sex anyway, so you might as well help them do it safely and without consequences. Not much intellect or integrity in that position if you ask me.

    I wasn’t speaking of Rusty’s integrity. I believe he has it even if I disagree with his positions. I was specifically referring to the professor’s integrity, and that I doubted Rusty would defend someone who clearly has little (if any) of it.

    I don’t mean to speak for him, or put words in his mouth. But – as I said above – I enjoy our discussions, respect Rusty, and feel the conversations benefit both of us.

  47. #47
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:12 pm, chapoutier said:

    So rather than trying to gain political points, people like the good professor here should not cry racism when something doesn’t go their way but save it for real incidents of racism.

    Why all of the sudden am I thinking of Bill Clinton circa January 2008?….

    Hmmm….I guess the mind wanders.

  48. #48
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:35 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    I understand that she may be a great person…

    Uh no, she’s a liar and a thief…

    I have worked in Academia and this unfortunately doesn’t surprise me. Chaputier, maybe it’s one reason I was so cynical. I’ve been harping about the unreleased video. That poor Psychologist was murdered in Manhattan and the police had the building surveillance video out the next day. But months later, no sign of the noose video.

    I personally think “Instutional Racism” has finally “jumped the shark.” A moron tries to get on a plane with a box cutter and claims racism when arrested. A fraud at Columbia is exposed for stealing the works of others and claims racism. The wife of an ivy-league educated black man running for POTUS(let me repeat, running for Pres), herself ivy-league educated and making $275,000 a year hints at racism to galvanize the Brandeys of the world.

    Sorry, I think people of all races are sick of it and tuning it out. If Obama has shown anything, it’s that the claims of racism holding people back no longer apply.

    Like a forest fire that’s been beaten down that has hot spots flare up, there will surely be instances of racism and bigotry, but the claims of the race baiters are, from this point on, null and void.

    Sorry, that’s how I see it. And yes, I know individual haters are out there, but as a society, I think we’re over it.

  49. #49
    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:48 pm, chapoutier said:

    but as a society, I think we’re over it.

    I tend to agree. I would not call America a racist nation or society. That, I think we all agree, is far different from saying that racism doesn’t exist in our society.

    Here is a poll done by Rasmussen that I found interesting. To summarize, the poll says that 74% of Americans are willing to vote for a woman and 77% for a black person. That’s pretty good and I would say probably underestimates because I suspect some people found it difficult to separate their unwillingness to vote for the particular woman and black man in the race now from their overall opinion on the subject.

    But what was also interesting is that only 54 and 56 percent, respectively, thought their friends, family, neighbors would vote for a woman/black person. So I guess perhaps the perception of racism (and sexism) outperforms the reality.

  50. #50
    On February 21st, 2008 at 4:38 pm, max said:

    Did she plagiarize Brandy Priestess?

  51. #51
    On February 21st, 2008 at 9:44 pm, beenthere said:

    The good news is the noose incident is now solved: the circumstantial evidence is persuasive.

    Ms. Constantine, congratulations. Step on up and present your get-out-of-jail free card and receive you autographed picture of Mrs. Obama.

    Everything fits and it is not a surprise. Sorry about the appearance of prejudice on my part, but since no one will be punished, least of all Ms. Constantine, such is not a concern.

  52. #52
    On February 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 am, TexasTiger said:

    On February 21st, 2008 at 12:48 pm, chapoutier said:

    but as a society, I think we’re over it.

    I tend to agree. I would not call America a racist nation or society. That, I think we all agree, is far different from saying that racism doesn’t exist in our society.

    Here is a poll done by Rasmussen that I found interesting. To summarize, the poll says that 74% of Americans are willing to vote for a woman and 77% for a black person. That’s pretty good and I would say probably underestimates because I suspect some people found it difficult to separate their unwillingness to vote for the particular woman and black man in the race now from their overall opinion on the subject.

    But what was also interesting is that only 54 and 56 percent, respectively, thought their friends, family, neighbors would vote for a woman/black person. So I guess perhaps the perception of racism (and sexism) outperforms the reality.

    What interests me about the survey are the questions that weren’t asked (e.g., how likely is it that you, your friends or family would vote for a Caucasian or Republican candidate). You can’t get a complete picture of the extent of racism in society without asking those questions.

  53. #53
    On February 22nd, 2008 at 10:11 am, WarTip said:

    On February 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am, Boomer said: Having not grown up in the post Civil War reconstruction era in the “Deep South” I am still trying to wrap my mind around the symbol of a hangman’s noose as a hate crime. I guess the Confederate battle flag is no longer the symbol of white oppression from Nathan Bedford Forest days as founder of the KKK. With most of my life being spent in the Western part of the country and being well read on local history I still associate it with the hanging of murderers, cattle rustlers, and horse thieves from the frontier justice of the “Wild West” era of American history.

    Boomer, I have to answer this and I hope perhaps I can even start an email conversation with you if you would like.

    I can understand how many people associate the Confederate Battle Flag with slavery and oppression and I respect that opinion but it does remain an opinion. Nathan B. Forrest actually left the KKK after it changed from a means to drive off carpetbaggers into the hate-filled organization it became. The Confederate flag (And thus, the battle flag by proxy) remains to me a proud remembrance of my heritage as a Southerner. It also represents the attempt of many brave men (On both sides in regards to the soldiers who served) to prevent the centralization of power into a centralized and all-powerful federal government.

    Slavery was indeed an abhorrence to mankind and should rightfully be condemned and actively impeded even where it still exists to this day. However, as a true lover of history as well, I still believe in the larger issue of Individual States Rights and NOT having to answer to an all-seeing pseudo-omniscient federal system.

    It is my humble opinion that while slavery was a main issue of the civil war, the civil war itself was not fought exclusively because of slavery. Look at Lincoln’s group associations in the 1850′s and the facts that slavery, while not as prevalent in the North, was not legally abolished in the North until almost a full two years after it was abolished in the South.

    I do understand how it can become a divisive issue for many people and I kept mine indoors in order to avoid offending people out of a sense of common courtesy and not because of being PC or out of some fear of being offensive.

    That being said, I do fully agree with you on a noose being quite innocuous in certain circumstances and the mere display should not offend anyone more than any other personal display. However, if it is hung on someone’s door, placed in a tree in their yard under cover of night, it could be seen much the same as the old burning crosses and I do see how it could be considered worthy of investigation and in some instances, prosecution. I believe threats and intimidation are still crimes despite PC run amok.

    As for me, I shall hang my Confederate Battle Flag with pride within the confines of my home. I had mine there with all of my friends who I daresay, were and remain a very diverse group of people.

    As for history, any lover of History is someone I would be proud to have as a friend … even if by chance they were as ugly as me. I do not care what people look like, only about the quality and content of their character.

    (MM and RM: If you must remove this post I understand but I hope you will allow it to remain)

    Thanks

  54. #54
    On February 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm, BrianNY said:

    #44 chapoutier said:

    “Trust. But verify.”

    Very wise words, Chap. And for what it’s worth, I’ve found you to be a passionate, rational and thoughtful opiner on this subject.

  55. #55
    On February 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 pm, chapoutier said:

    I’ve found you to be a passionate, rational and thoughtful opiner on this subject.

    I suspect you are in the minority on that one.

    Sorta-funny story re: Al Sharpton. I went to college in the Bronx. One day my girlfriend and I were coming back from Coney Island, got off the D train at Fordham Road and were walking back to campus. We see a pretty large contingent of people walking together on the sidewalk, along with TV cameras, I am walking, looking at the cameras and not where I am going and BAM! run right into Al Sharpton (got him kinda shoulder to shoulder. He was wearing this long purple robe-type thing and had very long curls at the time. Some guy who I assume was in his enourage pulled me away and brusquely tossed me aside. I mumbled a quick “sorry” and got the hell away from there.

    That was also the day of the infamous mermaid parade at Coney Island, (google it, but not at work) which I had no idea even existed and kind of stumbled upon. So pretty surreal day all in all.

  56. #56
    On February 22nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm, BrianNY said:

    Ha Ha, I went to Fordham as undergrad, I am familiar with the mermaid parade…and I nearly walked right over the Rev. on 5th Ave last February, two blocks south of St. Pat’s Cathedral.

    Small world.

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Categories: Nooses

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