This was originally posted over at PFB in response to the South Dakota abortion ban that passed t…
Popularity: unranked [?]……

Through the miracle of modern science many couples that could not produce children in the past are now able to, thanks to in vitro fertilisation.

I don’t think this could be said to be a bad thing at all. However, during IVF, some of the fertilized zygotes (the ones deemed less apt to grow into a life) are discarded in favor of implanting the best ones.

So, because of that, those of you that believe life begins upon fertilization must insist that IVF as it is performed currently is murder.

I cannot accept this. Can you?

But there was something else in this article that just got me hopping angry. A child is ‘bad for the environment?’ So, what they’re saying is that, with fewer people, the environment is far better off? Well, OK…. If that’s the case, then if there weren’t ANY people around, the environment would be just dandy, right? Hence why “The fewer, the merrier” t-shirts are being produced? Right? Is that what you British ‘think tank’ oxymoronics are saying?

Fine, then, to all you tree-hugging, have-an-abortion-to-save-the-world-touting, fewer-people-to-help-the-environment-spouting, Mother-Earth-loving, nazi environmentalists! If fewer people in the world will save it, I have a gun you can borrow. You go first. I’ll make sure we bury you under the tree of your choice, so that your sorry carcass can be its fertilizer.

Children are only a “burden” if we MAKE them a burden. If we CONSIDER them a burden. *I* don’t. My wife and I went through hell to adopt the two that we have now, dealing with trying to heal the abuses heaped upon these innocent kids, dealing with bio parents who–by all rights–are lucky to be breathing, dealing with a foster care system that is far harder on us (as foster parents) than they are on bio-parents. And I would GLADLY walk through that again and again and again to give another child a chance in this life.

One of my children has severe fetal alcohol syndrome. The other one–at two years of age–was a meth addict. But that doesn’t matter to me. I see them as gifts from God who just need to be given the chance–no, given the LOVE–to grow and succeed in this world to the best of their abilities. It’s not always easy. It’s not always fun. But I thank God every day for them. EVERY. DAY.

And if some freak out there wants to try to tell me that it would be “better for the world” if they weren’t in it? Then Buddy, I have news for you. The world would be a far better place without you–or others like you–in it.

I, on the other hand, have far better and far more important things to do. Like saving your children from the likes of you.

(Jeez – what will that ‘think tank’ come up with next? That old people should be euthenized by the time they’re 65, so that we can keep the air cleaner from their toxic breath? Their Cadillac exhaust? Their greenhouse gases? Oh, wait. They can’t do that. Euthenasia is MURDER.)

Thank you for the reply. It is good to have a civil discussion on this topic.

I understand how you feel about the spark of life. I also understand how it seems simple to you. To me, it is a simple idea that there is nothing special about the point at which a sperm cell joins with an egg cell and begins to replicate DNA. In later stages, when a fetus develops a level of consciousness, then they could be said to be a form of life.

I’m sure you’ve heard this saying: “God helps those who help themselves.” You don’t need God to come to terms with your past.

I think you are naive to think that one or another’s ‘beliefs’ are truth or could be truth because they believe it fervently. Truth is truth and it is a sharp, double edged sword.

I think I might have given you the wrong impression. I don’t believe this at all. In fact I believe quite the opposite. I believe that truth is truth and can be discovered through hypothesis, research, and experiment.

God, through his Son forgives.

But where does that leave Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Shinto’s, and Atheists? I think Jesus was a great man that many people can learn from, but I do not think it’s fair to say Jesus is the one path to salvation. Many decent people the world over would disagree. What is even more tragic is this disagreement can be divisive, even dangerous.

There is a callousness in our country, in the hearts and minds of so many. Our nation suffers the loss of the little ones, the mental anguish to the mothers and unintended consequences in the cheapening of all human life.

I do not disagree, but the United States is still a shining beacon of hope in an otherwise dismal world. If you think human life is being cheapened in the USA, look to certain places in Africa and the Mid East. The outright horror is indescribable. Things that are done to fellow human beings in some parts of the world makes the abortion debate seem trite and petty.

My friend, ZA, you have an honest passion about you. I hope (and pray) you might find what you seek (even if you don’t know that you seek it).

Thank you. I have though. I mentioned earlier I was Christian for many years. The fact is, I was raised Christian. In my quest for knowledge in early adulthood, I researched and read many different religious books from many different religions. For a time I converted to another religion, I then later discovered the idea of atheism, then became an atheist (though at that time I had less understanding of the philosophy behind it). Sometime after that, I “rediscovered” my faith in the form of a transcendent “God” (which jived nicely with my original atheist views) and once again began calling myself Christian.

Only very recently have I come to terms with the idea that a transcendent “God” is a meaningless logical convention and just a way for me to refuse to admit to myself what I truly believe. Since that point I feel like a tremendous weight has been lifted off of me. I have found that in admitting to myself what I truly think and not bowing to social and cultural conventions I feel much better. So, what I am saying is, I HAVE found what I seek, and I truly do wish for you to have a similar revelation at some point in the future. As much as you desire that I accept the forgiveness and love of Jesus Christ, I desire that you accept and understand that THIS LIFE is all we have, so we better not screw it up! What that might mean for you is, stop beating yourself up, but only you can make that choice.

Good luck my friend. Look WITHIN for strength, not without. It IS there.

The simplicity of the matter is once life is created, the spark of life begins and does not naturally end unless aborted, killed by someone. No one but the mother controls that happening.

I have had a child and felt the struggle of life within me. I did choose to kill a child and in over 30 years I have not come to ‘peace’ with it. Not any peace that could be found of my own accord. I believe God will meet me in my desire to come to terms with this over the coming weekend.

I think you are naive to think that one or another’s ‘beliefs’ are truth or could be truth because they believe it fervently. Truth is truth and it is a sharp, double edged sword.

No one has offered forgiveness for murder to myself or to others sharing their grief over this choice. God, through his Son forgives. As an atheist I understand you will not understand this. It is a distinction with great meaning.

I have hoped for many decades now that our society will wake up to what is happening. There is a callousness in our country, in the hearts and minds of so many. Our nation suffers the loss of the little ones, the mental anguish to the mothers and unintended consequences in the cheapening of all human life.

My friend, ZA, you have an honest passion about you. I hope (and pray) you might find what you seek (even if you don’t know that you seek it).

Thank you Larry Sharp for your words. Your post should have been the proper end to this thread. I hope I didn’t detract from it.

God’s mercy is from everlasting to everlasting and is renewed daily. We all need mercy. We all desperately need to be free from our troubling past.

Your hope lies wtihin the Word of God starting with Acts 2:38-39.

I pray you find the peace that passeth all understanding.

Your gesture is kind, and no offense is taken. I understand that you passionately believe you are right and that I am wrong.

Consider though, I passionately believe I am right. I believe that human life DOES NOT begin the early stages of pregnancy (though I am NOT OK with late term abortions, partial-birth abortions, etc. since I think human life of a kind COULD be said to begin in later stages).

So, due to that belief, I don’t think anyone that has an early stage abortion has ANYTHING to be ashamed about (other then maybe not having the foresight to consider birth control thus sparing them a potentially dangerous operation).

Further, I have a hard time reconciling the train of thought that says abortion = murder, but if you committed this form of murder its OK and we forgive you.

The way I see it, if a person has a hard time coming to terms with having had an abortion it is because of their OWN beliefs. There is such a thing as a woman that has had an abortion and did not suffer years of guilt over it. That is not to say it was something they took lightly, and it is not to say it is something they do constantly. They simply did not see a fetus as a human life. I realize that many people might (and have) said, “zeroangel doesn’t know what he is talking about! No woman he ever loved had to go through this!” Those people are wrong. Furthermore I sincerely think that if the worst thing that ever happened to a person in their whole life was they had to go through an abortion, then they have led a very fortunate life indeed and I envy them.

On top of all these beliefs, I am also an atheist. I do not believe in God, so while I understand the good intent and the unselfish desire to want my soul to be saved, it’s a bit like me telling you, “By the grace of Lord Zeus I hope you come to understand that human life along begins when Apollo breathes the soul into a fetus during the 222 day of a pregnancy.” I AM NOT trying to belittle your religion with that statement (just as I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone else in prior posts with similar anecdotes), just trying to explain my point of view.

Finally, due to all these things, when I read about this woman, my first thought was, “Holy Cow! What an incredibly emotionally unstable woman! What? MM is blaming the abortion industry for her death?” Might she have been saved if she were given all the choices? Was she duped into believing abortion is OK? Maybe. Its far more likely that well-meaning people that shared the same belief as I do simply screwed up.

We can go on and on about how the “abortionists” WANT to force everyone to believe the way they do and how they “trick” unsuspecting woman into believing abortion is OK. Then I can turn tables and talk about if one follows the abortion = murder train of thought to its logical conclusion, those that kill abortion doctors could be said to be justified on some level.

The preceding paragraph is exactly why this thing will not get resolved anytime soon. The issue hits at the heart of religious and philosophical beliefs, beliefs people get VERY excited about. Thus, people that consider themselves rational, thinking beings are demonized by one end of the spectrum or the other (depending on the stance they take) and serious debate is impossible.

Anyways- if I did believe in God I might pray for you. Instead I’ll just “hope” that you someday come to the realization that you don’t have to feel like you ended a “life” because you didn’t.

Prayers up for Zero & bloghooligan – no offense intended.

Thanks Michelle for the forum you provide and for this exchange of ideas. Truth will prevail.

cjean

being mean? WTF are you talking about?

mean, way to take a point and distort it.

Care to clarify? I see that I am not the only person to pounce on it.

I think we have an issue with:

protecting them hurts the rest of society.

Now, who was being mean?

There are a lot of things “society” needs protection from, unborn children is not one of them.

uh, what? who said anyone needed protecting from unborn children? it’s the unborn who need the protecting right? isn’t that what this discussion is about?!

mean, way to take a point and distort it.

and you stated that we must protect the most innocent in our society. that’s only true to the point that protecting them hurts the rest of society.

Protecting who hurts the rest of society? wow, Wow, WOW! Who makes the call – you? Judges? Who would you protect US from? Children who might be born HIV positive? Diseased? Why stop there? Kill everyone who has AIDS, the poor, people with cancer now – today. Oh, wait, they have taken a breath so, they are exempt no matter the drain on society. How far do we go?

There are a lot of things “society” needs protection from, unborn children is not one of them.