If I start with the enviro-nut idea that many sentient animals like cows / whales / sheep / lions / tigers / antelopes are somehow on equal footing with humans I run into a nifty little paradox:

Having been a soldier and understanding that sometimes it is the right thing to do to kill evil people that wantonly kill other people I am now faced with the following:

Should I be killing the heartless and cruel lions to protect the innocent antelope from being preyed upon?

Should I be rounding up all lions and forcing them to become vegans?

However, isn’t this contrary to nature? Shouldn’t I respect the lion’s right to survive? Why are humans considered seperate from nature and “against it?”

Why is the fact of our advanced and evolved intelleigence NOT a part of nature?

Why does a lion get a pass for killing other animals and humans don’t?

Finally, I concur, good points pgtips.

Star Trek IV was funny, even though it was a bit silly (concerning the whales).

“You realize of course by giving him this formula we are altering history?”

“Ahhh but ‘ow do we know ‘e dinna invent da thing?” *grins*

That was a great response. Star Trek IV was just on the other day, too. I cought it from the beginning for a change. Funny movie.

You also have a great point about the “line” at which intelligence begins. The fact is that many of these nutjobs, like the terrorists, believe we are the problem and there is no justification for anything we do. Everything on earth has the same rights as us, in their pea-sized brains.

Apparently, we are supposed to just lay down and die. They’ve as much as said the earth, I mean “gaia,” would be better off if we did. They know this how?

If Japan was hunting whales to extinction I’d see it your way re: thinking they own the oceans. They aren’t and I don’t.

Who will enforce LOST rules? What navy or navies from what countries? How long do you think it will be before some despot tries to turn LOST on its head and attack the US with it?

They say its for scientific research for the same reason the enviro-loons call what they do “Non-violent means.” Sadly, the rest of the world is culturally biased against Japan because whales are thought to be “intelligent.” So, Japan has to use euphamisms so Akira and Suki get a chance to live in a nice apartment and have plenty of rice and sushi to eat.

On March 4th, 2008 at 12:27 am, greenLibertarian said:
Killing whales is thuggery, tossing old butter in response is fine by me.

Sanctity of other intelligent life on this planet is nonexistent here?

As for legal action, it’s been tried: the whaling countries pretend their whaling is scientific, we all know that is a sham, so what else can people who value the lives of these creatures do?

So, if the established legal process yields a result deemed unsatisfactory by whomever, then one is free to resort to criminal acts?

Just for our edification, what do you think of hunters?

The problem with LOST (imo) is that it has set rules, but no enforcement. Japan knows this, and knows they can do whatever they want. If the whaling issue is about feeding people, why do they lie and claim it is for scientific research?

Oh for goodness sake.

I didn’t LITERALLY mean write, if you didn’t get that, maybe its not my intelligence that we should be questioning.

Anyways refer to #71 and let me restate my position a bit clearer for you.

Until we come up with the Star Trek device that enables us to send some sound signals into the water that say (in whale):

“Hey there? Hows it going down there?”

and the whales reply (and we understand):

“Well, not great, you see my buddies and I are banging our heads against an iceberg trying to figure out how to work out the ratio of the circumference of a circle to the diameter. We know its between 3.1 and 3.2, but we can’t nail it down exactly. Oh yah, that and please stop eating us.”

…then I say they are fair game.

You see, I KNOW that Suki and Akira are intelligent. So, if Mr. Yakamoto hunts Shamu so that Mr. Fujiyama can pay a whole bunch of cash to eat Shamu in a nice fancy Japanese resturant, that means that Mr. Yakamoto and all his pals are going to make money.

In turn that means that Akira and Suki (and a whole bunch of others) get well fed and taken care of. Then maybe Suki can go to a nice school in Tokyo and learn all about Pi, (thats 3.14159… not the kind you eat) linear algebra, and Voltaire. That might even mean something equally nice for Akira, and maybe he won’t end up having to freeze his a** off in Antartica hunting whales so he can feed his future family. You see, Suki and Akira’s lives and well-beings are many, many times more important than Shamu in my eyes.

Perhaps an intelligent alien species may come here and decide a species as needlessly destructive and short-sighted as ours may be unintelligent and should be used as food.

Yes, and if we are lucky, by that time we will have developed Phasers and Photon torpedos and maybe Akira and Suki helped build Voltron. You need to watch less TV.

Are you a vegatarian? If not, then your arguement is intellectually dishonest. If you are, then good luck with that, I’m going to have an extra cheeseburger on your behalf. Mr Fujiyama will have an extra helping of dead Shamu for you.

SHoward: ahh ok, then seems we are in complete agreement, excellent.

Mate, you need to stop watching Star Trek.

You need to define intelligence. All animals exhibit intelligence. Hell, even plants exhibit intelligence how they respond to light, temperature, etc.

So where and how do you draw the line? At creatures that give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside? By the stance you take, you should just off yourself as you will inevitably need to eat and thus consume an intelligent living creature.

Perhaps an intelligent alien species may come here and decide a species as needlessly destructive and short-sighted as ours may be unintelligent and should be used as food.

Let me be absloutely clear:

I do not care if the Japanese hunt whales. They are fair game just like any other lower species we rely on for survival.

My recommendation in post #62 was not intended as the solution I am in favor of, just a more reasonable approach than open terrorism. i.e. if these nutjobs are so clean and pure as the wind-driven snow they should be making their case in front of some kind of governing body, not throwing acid at people.

As for LOST, or anything else the UN wants, I am absolutely against our participation. We’d give up too much for what little we might gain.

Shanimal and I agree that the terror tactics used are not acceptable. We disagree on whether or not whales are fair game. I say they are.

As for your last paragraph, refer to my last paragraph in post #59. Whales didn’t land on the moon, we did.

Sanctity of other intelligent life on this planet is nonexistent here?

“Intelligent” is a subjective term. Where do we stop? It is nature for organisms to prey on one another. Humans are not herbivores. I am comfortable with the idea that Mr. Yakamoto can help feed Suki and Akira by preying on a lesser species. In fact if killing some whale just happens to mean Mr. Yakamoto can afford a new computer so Suki can surf wikipedia, I am OK with that too. It’s a whale.

Maybe in 10000 yrs when whales develop written language perhaps we can have another look at that idea. Until that time, pass the whale meat.

Sanctity of other intelligent life on this planet is nonexistent here?

As for legal action, it’s been tried: the whaling countries pretend their whaling is scientific, we all know that is a sham, so what else can people who value the lives of these creatures do?

OK wait, I’m confused. Just so we are clear:

I do not support some kind of law of the sea that says Japan can’t hunt whales, as long as they leave enough for other nations that may want to hunt them.

You guys think hunting whales is wrong, and you think Japan should be accountable, but you DON’T suport something like LOST? Or you think LOST didn’t do enough?

I say let them hunt. They are whales. In any case, international “laws” aren’t really quite laws. How will the UN enforce these laws? Are we going to see the vessels of some nations under the authority of the UN threatening Japanese ships with force unless they comply? I’m not sure I like that either.

I think we all agree though, the enviro-nutz are in the wrong any way you slice this.