In defense of parents with informed vaccine skepticism
The New York Times published a piece today about parents choosing not to expose their children to certain vaccines. This prompted blogger condemnations of those parents as “Bobo socipaths” and a recommendation from Glenn Reynolds that “we should make clear that parents who, with no genuine medical reason, forego vaccinating their kids are bad parents, and bad citizens.”
Well, what constitutes “genuine medical reason?” And which vaccines are we talking about? All of them? For all time? Not all vaccines are equal. And if you leave it to the medical establishment and Big Nanny public school officials to determine the definition of “genuine medical reason,” then any parent who questions any vaccine administration at any time in a child’s life will be deemed a “bad” parent and “bad” citizen.
I’ve written before about my first-hand experience with bully doctors who balked at even the mildest questioning of their early-and-often-shut-up-and-give-me-your-baby-don’t-ask questions vaccine regimens after challenging the wisdom of newborn Hep B immunization in 2004:
Why on earth should we vaccinate our newborn baby against Hepatitis B – a virus that is contracted mostly through intravenous drug use and sexual contact? That is the question my husband and I had for the doctors and nurses at the hospital where our son was born two and a half months ago.
We didn’t get very good answers. It was “convenient,” “recommended” and “routine,” the medical staff assured us. We wanted more information. A nurse gave us a brochure, which explained that babies whose mothers had the Hep B virus were at high risk of developing acute Hep B infections. Well, I tested negative for Hep B. The Centers for Disease Control named unprotected sex, IV drug use and being stuck with a needle on the job as the likeliest routes of Hep B transmission. Well, my husband and I both work primarily from home, our two children stay at home, and neither we nor our 3-year-old daughter nor our baby (for heaven’s sake!) live the Kid Rock-and-Pamela Anderson Lee lifestyle.
When we told the hospital staff that we simply wanted more time to think about giving the Hep B shot to our son – doesn’t “informed consent” mean we should be truly informed? – we were badgered aggressively. Some lectured us about the need to “get on the proper vaccination schedule.” Others warned that Maryland, like more than 40 other states, requires all schoolchildren to be vaccinated for Hep B. Teachers, however, are not subject to the mandate, which is driven not just by altruistic concern for children’s health. Ohio legislator Dale Van Vyven snuck the Hep B mandate into a 1998 hazardous-waste bill at the behest of profit-maximizing vaccine manufacturers’ lobbyists.
The “everybody does it” and “for the greater good” arguments worked when we were overcautious, over-trusting, first-time parents who submitted our daughter to every single vaccine without question. This time, we resolved not to be rushed or bullied. We declined to give our son the politically correct Hep B shot, decided to do more research, and then took up the issue with our pediatrician.
Boy, were we in for a rude awakening. Our doctor parroted the American Academy of Pediatrics line and mindlessly emphasized the efficacy of vaccines in eradicating childhood diseases. Well, we weren’t questioning their collective efficacy. We questioned what the individual health benefits and health risks to our newborn were. Physicians have blindly plied vaccines before that have done more harm than good. A childhood rotavirus vaccine, for example, was approved for widespread use in 1998 and withdrawn from the market less than a year later after causing an increase in the incidence of painful bowel obstruction among infants.
Our doctor, however, pooh-poohed our inquiries about potential side effects. He seemed to have no idea what those risks were and no interest in finding out. He was also incredibly condescending: “95 percent of what you read on the Internet” is unreliable, he sermonized, as if we were too dumb to separate scientific fact from fraud.
In the end, we concluded that some of the vaccines were more worth the risks than others. At my son’s two-month checkup, the pediatrician expected him to receive a triple-combination shot called “Pediarix” (consisting of Hep B, inactivated polio, and DTaP, which covers diphtheria, tetanus and acellular pertussis), as well as HiB (for certain bacterial infections) and Prevnar (for meningitis and blood infections). I reiterated my refusal of Hep B, accepted DTaP and HiB, and asked to put off polio and Prevnar. In response, I received a threat: Get all the vaccines or get out of our practice.
“Informed consent”? Ha. This was uninformed coercion.
We’re leaving for another practice, a little bitter but wiser. The strong-arm tactics of the medical establishment mustn’t intimidate parents from challenging the universal vaccine orthodoxy. When it comes to protecting our children’s health, skepticism is the best medicine.
Is there junk science on the anti-vaccine side? Absolutely. But you can’t address this issue without also addressing the problem with physicians who are unwilling to discuss the full risks of vaccines as well as the benefits; pro-vaccination groups that provide incorrect information about the duration of protection; physicians who refuse to care for children who are not “fully” vaccinated; and the comparative risk-benefit ratios for different vaccines. Mandatory chickenpox vaccinations, for example, are questionable. And should I be forced to give my daughter the cervical cancer vaccine?
As I’ve said before, I am no anti-vaccine hysteric and I have been a staunch defender of the pharma industry against anti-capitalist attacks from the left and right. But I have refused to be coerced or bullied into anything regarding our kids’ health–and that includes vaccines.
Does that make parents like me “sociopaths?” Better than being unquestioning, blind sheeple immediately abdicating parental responsibility whenever anyone in hospital scrubs invokes “the public good.”
***
Commenter HeatherRadish makes an excellent point:
The part that interested me most about the NY Times article is that while they’re hyperventillating about educated, middle-class, mostly white American parents, thousands of unvaccinated people are pouring over the border every day, bringing TB and mumps and other diseases with them, and they think this is a GOOD thing.
Compare and contrast these e-mails I received tonight from two doctors–one who basically understands my main points and one who…doesn’t.
The first:
Dear Michelle,
I am an internist and Infectious Diseases specialist, and I tend to agree with your opinion on vaccines. I think of vaccines in two categories:
1) Vaccines that tend to benefit the patient with unproven or small benefit to the community, such as the cervical cancer vaccine and chickenpox.
2) Vaccines where the patient benefits but there is a great benefit for society, such as polio and measles vaccines.
If the illness is generally not serious, such as chickenpox, or unlikely to occur in a specific population, such as hepatitis B, then if you are confident that your child is low risk, I see no problem in withholding the vaccine. The cervical cancer vaccine has other moral and ethical considerations and since it is not proven to help society as a whole, I have no problem with withholding it from your child.
However, measles and polio (and smallpox in the past) are such horrible diseases, and the vaccines have made major impacts on the health of our country, that these vaccines should not be withheld except in special circumstances. Even a small unvaccinated subpopulation in a community could lead to outbreaks, as occurred in Iowa with mumps, when religious sects had not been vaccinated. For measles, rubella, polio, and a few others, I would agree with the Instapundit that withholding the vaccine from children (except in special circumstances) would be wrong.
Best Regards,
Harold Oster
Medina, MN
The second:
As a pediatrician I really don’t appreciate your articles about vaccines. What is your point? To increase the distrust parents have toward their child’s doctor? Doesn’t Oprah, malpractice attorneys, and the internet do that job well enough? So you had a bad experience with your previous doctor – get over it. It is ridiculous that you are insinuating that every question and concern that you could have as a parent have not already been addressed ad nauseam by pediatricians and government agencies. I am a parent too and I am sure I have spent many more hours of thought and consideration than you have on the subject before I decided to give a certain vaccine to my patients or my children. I actually know something about vaccines, disease, and children’s health.
Yet all day long, modern day physicians get questions from concerned parents like we are going to part of the next Lifetime TV movie. Your distrust of medicine is not a rarity like you
seem to think. It is the trend. Do you have any idea how hard it is to even get a vaccine approved? These issues are not entered into lightly.For what it is worth, some of my patients do not receive any vaccines at all and I do not dismiss them or “bully” their parents. Some families have developed ridiculous, complicated schedules for their children that we follow. I answer every question no matter how ridiculous it is and if the family is unsure I ask them to think about it and come back later rather than give them a shot that day. None of the other physicians in my community will continue to see children who do not get every recommended vaccine. They think I am crazy and putting my practice at risk. My wife thinks I should dismiss those patients too. And guess what – they are right. I can get sued if any of those children get a vaccine preventable disease that they did not get. It does not matter if they sign a waiver or I document that I have informed the parents of the risk. I can still get sued and I will probably lose. I plan on continuing they way things are now because I think people have the right to decide if their children get a vaccine or not. My children have gotten their vaccines (including the deadly Hepatitis B vaccine!! which is merely a protein made in yeast but of course you know that). I also think the public school system has the right to keep children who do not get a measles shot out of school. I also think that doctors have the right to dismiss patients who do not follow their recommendations. I think you should have switched doctors because you were unhappy. But I don’t think you should continue writing uniformed slander about how awful doctors are because they want to keep children in our country healthy. Despite what you might see in a Hallmark commercial, being a pediatrician is a hard, largely unrewarding job, that we do because first and foremost we care about children and when you write your little rants about vaccines it is insulting.
Thanks for my birthday present,
Jeffrey
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The part that interested me most about the NY Times article is that while they’re hyperventillating about educated, middle-class, mostly white American parents, thousands of unvaccinated people are pouring over the border every day, bringing TB and mumps and other diseases with them, and they think this is a GOOD thing.
Our son underwent the Hep B vaccine series at birth, but for good reason. He was born when I was stationed in Korea and due to my job (I was a medic) it could be assumed that I had been exposed (note that I had undergone several series of Hep B vaccine). My wife (who is Korean) had a sky-high titer, indicating prolonged exposure to hep B. In most cases, I think that the Hep B vaccine is probably not indicated for infants; if certain risk factors are present (such as in my son’s case) a doctor would be remiss if he didn’t recommend the vaccine.
Too often, doctors make recommendations without really looking at them, as in the case of childhood vaccines. Believe it or not, many, if not most, docs do not have sufficient scientific background to evaluate vaccine efficacy.
On the other side of the coin, we have parents who are convinced that vaccines will make their kids autistic; some of whom refuse ALL vaccines for their kids. As far as I am concerned, not vaccinating AT ALL is playing with fire
I seriously resent the attitude of doctors when they don’t take concerns of parents or our own health questions seriously. We are paying these doctors for a service, not to be blindly led and not allowed to have input on our children’s or our own welfare. Far too often they act as dictators, not healers.
I also resent parents who don’t immunize their children and put my kids at risk. But I totally agree with Michelle that we should question what kind and how much medicine our young children should receive. Doctors have been wrong before and we should all play an active and involved part of our children’s healthcare.
Try making it MANDATORY for EVERYONE, and see how fast those people who will also be effected, dig in their heels! It reminds me of the typical politician mind-set, which is that the LAW only applies to the “little people” (us), and that they feel they should be exempted from having to follow the law. After all, aren’t they the one’s that enact them?
Great point, HeatherRadish!
Then these liberals in the school systems force all kids to be vaccinated against Hepatitis B, which can only be transmitted through sexual conduct and drug use.
I could understand mandatory Hepatitis A vaccinations, which is transmitted from food and drink, but definitely not Hepatitis B.
It is offensive to me because of the Orwellian mentality of liberals. They believe that your kids are going to engage in sexual promiscuity and drug no matter how you bring them up and, therefore, they must protect your kids from your naive, old-fashioned Christian ethics. It is typical, insufferable liberal behavior.
Chicken pox vaccinations?! Why on earth would anyone want to vaccinate their child from chicken pox? Then, if you do get it as an adult, it is far more serious.
Actually, using the words “only” is incorrect. According to the CDC, there were several outbreaks in outpatient health clinics in NY, Oklahoma and Nebraska.
Read about it here:
However, I firmly believe that doctors and parents should discuss the pros and cons of all vaccines, timing, adverse events, etc. The final decision should be left up to the parent.
During my pregnancy-25 years ago- I did a lot of reading RE: infant vaccinations and found that the pertussis portion of the DTaP had come into question. I called my family and found that at least one nephew had had a severe reaction to the pertussis portion of the series. I refused to allow my child to have the pertussis. At the time, one could get the DT w/o the P.
I have noticed that the medical profession is still in “practice” mode and it’s best they not “practice” on infants.
Behind you 100%, Michelle.
The ONLY person who cares about your child is YOU.
So, the ONLY person who should be making decisions about your child is YOU. Not any damn bureaucrat, not any damn judge, not any damn village, not any damn Hillary.
You’re not asking for a hand-out, so tell them to keep their hands OFF.
Another thing:
Certain countries and ethnic groups have a much higher prevalence of Hepatitis B, which is transmitted the same way as AIDS, than others. For example, when I taught in South Korea, the South Korean government forced all teachers to get the Hepatitis B vaccine because of the high rate of Hepatitis B infection.
This forcing ALL students to receive Hepatitis B vaccine in the United States is part of the stupid “self-esteem” and “multicultural” movement. Instead of singling out ethnic groups and immigrants to recommend the vaccine to, they force everyone to get it, even those groups not at all at risk, so as to not hurt feelings.
PS As far as the cervical cancer vaccine in concerned—there is not enough long term study to know what this one is going to do to our female population. Remember-the birth control pills were accepted as being “harmless”!
Thirty years later –we know better!
PSS Our children were put into our charge not the government’s
Michelle, I doubt if Glenn has done any research. I also doubt that he would understand your very logical response.
Questioning the physician about the efficacy of a vaccine for a newborn child should never be considered a refusal to have said child vaccinated.
But as a former USN Hospital Corpsman, I have come across many physicians that view a patient (or parent) questioning the use of a vaccine or medical procedure as insulting their medical competence, or as we Corpsman called it…’The Napoleon Complex.’
For example, one morning, I woke up with an aching, plugged up feeling in my inner ear, and I knew I had an inner ear infection. I called my Doctor’s office, to set up an appointment, explaining that I had an inner ear infection, and needed to get seen so I could get antibiotic ear drops.
Needless to say, when I went to see him, I advised him that I had an inner ear infection, told him of the signs and symptoms, that I didn’t want to take up his time more then necessary, and all I needed was antibiotic ear drops…he looked at me, and asked in a very haughty tone…’How do you know you have an inner ear infection, I haven’t examined you yet?’
After explaining my symptoms AGAIN, he looked into my ear with the otoscope for about 30 seconds or so, confirmed that I had an inner ear infection, and proceeded to proscribe me antibiotics.
Prior to me leaving, he instructed me about the ‘dangers’ of diagnosing one’s self, to which I replied…’Doc, I have had inner ear infections on and off for the last 30 years, I think by now I know what they feel like.’
I should have said “primarily,” since you can also get Hepatitis B if your mother had it (like AIDS babies) and if you are exposed to blood (just like AIDS).
But the primary way is through sex and exposure to blood.
Here are the risk groups, according to CDC:
So it is ridiculous to force all kids to get a Hepatitis B vaccination. There is virtually no way that kids could get it any more than they could get AIDS.
Slightly off track, but I had extensive experience with the medical establishment in 2007 while dealing with a parent who was diagnosed with terminal, pancreatic cancer.
While a few of the medical staff were amazing, I couldn’t believe the mechanical and sub-human behavior exhibited by many on staff (and this was a MAJOR university hospital in Connecticut.)
Trying to get answers or trying to give suggestions for relieving my parent’s pain was always met with expressionless faces; I always felt like there was a lawyer standing behind me or something.
Anyway, many of my negative experiences eventually led to a sit down with the hospital’s Chief of Staff, who used much of what my family experienced as impetus for corrective measures.
My shared point with Michelle is, even when you’re up against someone who wears a white jacket (and who has seven more years of education and experience than you do) don’t let that stop you from defending a loved one when you KNOW something isn’t right.
I have heard that the CDC is advocating that boys should be vaccinated with the cervical cancer vaccine Gardasil. Long term effects haven’t been studied enough in girls yet and they want to require that boys get it too?
When I first heard this, my first thought was that the makers of Gardasil want to double their sales and no other reason.
This is food for thought, Michelle.
I lived in the filthy slums around Buenos Aires, Argentina (which are home to a lot of great people, yes, but this makes them no more sanitary) for two years as a missionary, so I am vaccinated against virtually everything you can be vaccinated against. I accepted these vaccinations, however, because I knew of the extremely high risks associated with living in the area I would live in and the manner I would be living in; drinking local tap water, working with the sick, visiting hospitals, frequently wading through flood water, etc. without easy access to anything resembling Western medicine.
I took all of these vaccinations, some of which posed significant risks, because I was sufficiently informed as an adult (aged 19) and knew without a doubt that I faced a significant risk of infection if I did not take them. However, looking at the risks of vaccination for, say, yellow fever – severe allergic reaction, multiple organ failure, etc. – I strongly doubt I would take such a vaccine again unless I was facing a similar, confirmed threat.
I don’t have kids yet, but this is food for thought. Thank you, Michelle.
I’m a doc, and I agree with the posters here.
Keep on keeping on.
There are few better ways to start a web fight than to get into this subject! I think Glenn is right about the vaccines for the more easily communicable diseases, and Michelle is right about that parental discretion should be respected. My son is sixteen, and I guess I was fortunate that our pediatrician is an old family friend who told us, subtly, that our infant only needed the Hep B vaccine if we were in an at-risk group. We weren’t, so we were able to wait to vaccinate him until the law required it for entry to middle school.
Glenn’s little email friend, Dr. George Milonas, should probably read FDA’s website;
Epidemiological studies are often a double edged sword – it’s difficult to “prove” anything. It can even be difficult to either show or dismiss causal “relationships.”
This is exactly why Dr. George Milonas’ proposed class action should not proceed. We certainly don’t need a jury determining that which FDA can’t.
Dr. George, if you’re out there, if you have evidence that FDA hasn’t reviewed then please let me take a look at it. Please send the raw study data NOT an article. Or if you think FDA has it wrong, then please tell me (in detail) why.
When the disease is highly communicable, there’s a public health advantage to vaccinating everyone to protect the health of the herd.
For the less communicable diseases, it seems that the risk/benefit ratio must be considered. For example, I’ve had the series of pre-exposure injections for rabies, because of some of the work I do, but it would be silly for most people to have these.
The unfortunate fact is that there is a lot of junk science that gets rolled up into our laws and policies.
Case in point: the global warming hysteria. Leiberman is co sponsoring a bill that has a price tag north of a trillion dollars based on an unproven theory that is not backed up by recent facts. Your retirement plans are putting billions of dollars into funds that invest in companies that either offset their carbon footprint or that are working on projects that will slow down global warming. The most recent statistics and facts today actually point toward a sustained cooling trend.
In addition, anyone who has been to a doctor’s office recently is witness to a continuing procession of pharmaceutical reps paying a visit or homage to the doctor. You have to wonder how much they influence the prescriptions you get for what ails you. And whether the good doctor is receiving any kind of kickback for pushing the drug du jour.
And maybe it’s just me, but nowadays I end up on a second or third prescription before what I went to the doctor for in the first place finally goes away.
The approval process for new drugs has been accelerated under the guise of getting better drugs to the market. And what’s happening? We see in studies over a more prolonged period of time that new wonder drugs aren’t much better than a placebo, if you’re lucky. In more than a few cases, drugs are pulled off the market because of those pesky side effects like heart attacks and blood clots. In recent days, we have had blood thinners kill people (the Chinese ingredient), have had a study that found popular anti depressants don’t really work, and that children should not be taking many cold and cough remedies that were designed for adults.
Make no mistake – this is BIG business. So big, in fact, that the manufacturers are able to sustain multi billion dollar lawsuits on a particular drug and still come out in the black.
It is somewhat confusing why they even ask for the parent’s permission to give a vaccination. Confusing until you realize that if they have your “informed consent”, that pretty much lets the doctor and the government off the hook for a malpractice claim. So, why do doctors keep pushing when parent’s want to do some more research? One possible explanation if the money. I do not know the precise relationship between doctors and drug companies, but it would not surprise me if they were in fact comped in some way for writing prescriptions or administering drugs or vaccinations. Or perhaps the law compels them to fill out a mountain of paperwork when a parent refuses to go with the program. In either case, the effort in in no way related to the best interests of the child (the mantra of family courts across the US).
#22 On March 24th, 2008 at 11:05 pm, Jim M. said:
“One possible explanation if the money. I do not know the precise relationship between doctors and drug companies, but it would not surprise me if they were in fact comped in some way for writing prescriptions or administering drugs or vaccinations.”
I don’t know the law chapter and verse.
However, my understanding is that, besides being utterly unethical, the practice speculated about in the post above is most likely illegal.
At the very least, if I were proven to have written prescriptions in order to receive a kickback, my medical license would be – phwitt! – gone.
I discontinued vaccinations for my children six years ago. Most of the diseases vaccinated for have treatment and the more severe diseases are passed through behavior that my children are not exposed to. If they end up living a life that exposes them to it (missionary work, etc, or sinful behavior) they can get vaccinated at that time.
My unvaccinated children have never been to the dr. for illness. My vaccinated ones all suffered from frequent ear infection and miserable colds/flus.
One (totally normal, healthy) girl at my church went for her MMR and only a few hours later was suffering from a variety of disastrous reactions that left her blind, non-ambulatory, incontinent, autistic, unable to speak, etc. She is 15 years old now, and totally dependent on her parents. Very sad. I wish I had known before I had vaxed ANY of my children.
granite
Thanks for putting that to rest. Any idea why the doctors do push the vaccines? Kind of strange that they ask for consent, then pitch a fit when the consent is not given quickly.
juliesa, you are clearly making assumptions about the degree and confidence level of efficacy of subject vaccine.
Given FDA’s vaccine efficacy policies (which are different from drug efficacy policies), this issue should not be given blanket assumption.
For example, how would FDA determine the efficacy of a new small-pox vaccine? Or any vaccine for a very rare communicable disease?
#24 Mommaofmany:
One must consider the fact that one’s unvaccinated kids may not contract an illness because of herd immunity – because so many others in the general population have been vaccinated, and thus do not contract the disease, there are so few chances of encountering an infected indivual from whom one could contract the disease.
‘Course, this only works if most people get the recommended vaccines in the first place.
Adverse reactions to vaccines are a known risk.
The risk is considered acceptable if the overall risk to the population of NOT vaccinating is worse than the overall risk to the population OF vaccinating.
That’s why smallpox vaccination was stopped ~?30+ years or so ago: as the prevalence of the disease shrank and shrank, the small, but real risk of recipients’ developing an adverse reaction to the vaccine exceeded the risk to the community of not getting vaccinated.
Public health measures such as cleanliness, washing, disinfection, and vaccination have, as far as I am aware, been the biggest reason(s) for the great increase in average life expectancy that took place in the West from ~1900 to the present.
I am not a public-health doc, an epidemiologist, nor an infectious disease specialist.
But I think it would be correct to say that if one did not want to receive every single vaccine as soon as it became available, that that would not be an unreasonable choice.
However, I also think it would be correct to say that if one were to refuse any and all vaccines, that one would very likely put oneself (the individual patient) and society as a whole at increased risk.
It was discovered I had Hep B when I was 19 and donated blood. I had never used any kind of drugs (still haven’t at age 40) and my boyfriend (now my husband) was my only sex partner and vice versa.
The doctors think I contracted Hep B from the vaccinations I received in the 1970’s in elementary school because at my school they used needles and not the “gun” for the shots. My one doctor said it was discovered that many nurses shared needles. My mom, a nurse, said that was common in the 70’s school vaccinations.
Nevertheless, my son received the Hep B shot at birth because I tested positive for Hep B while pregnant. Anyways, I vaccinated him until kindergarten and then stopped. He is a very healthy kid. I chose not to expose him to the risks of vaccines.
By the way, I am free of Hep B now.
How did you become free it?
#25 On March 24th, 2008 at 11:21 pm, Jim M. said:
“Any idea why the doctors do push the vaccines? Kind of strange that they ask for consent, then pitch a fit when the consent is not given quickly.”
I do not have a definite answer.
Not to sound cynical, but I would not be surprised if it’s a combination of attitude, arrogance, and nanny-state we-know-better-than-you-do-what-is-good-for-you-in-every-instance worldview.
But, I’m just speculating here.
#28 On March 24th, 2008 at 11:44 pm, Artbyruth said:
“The doctors think I contracted Hep B from the vaccinations I received in the 1970’s in elementary school because at my school they used needles and not the “gun” for the shots. My one doctor said it was discovered that many nurses shared needles. My mom, a nurse, said that was common in the 70’s school vaccinations.”
Shared needles?!
In the 70s?!
Ouch!!
I interned in the late 70s, and the ONLY reusable syringe/needle we used was for drawing arterial blood gases; this syringe/needle was STERILIZED, the way surgical instruments are, before EACH use.
There are also risks to contracting diseases. Mumps in a boy can cause permanent sterility. Helen Keller’s deafness and blindness were caused by measles and Rubella (German Measles) when contracted by a pregnant woman can cause birth defects.
After my first child was born I was told that my measles titer showed that the vaccine I had had as a child didn’t work. I had the vaccine again. Especially since I was living in a college town at the time and measles outbreaks were fairly frequent at colleges at the time (mid-nineties).
My kids were all vaccinated against chicken pox and none of them has gotten the pox. I remember how awful they were for me and I’m glad to have spared my children that experience.
Just finished my CE on Vaccines for 2008. Anyone interested in receiving latest information should sign up at:
http://www.immunize.org/subscribe
Another resource is http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr. Schedules and administration practices change from time to time. The reason Hep B is given to infants is because during the early years is the only time one can count on getting anyone vaccinated on a regular basis. As others have discussed there is not a great danger of an infant being exposed to Hep B unless someone in the family has a chronic case and does not know about it. In the past 20 years we have seen new cases of Hep B drop from 200,000 per year to 60,000 per year in the USA since the vaccine has been in use. The highest rate of new infections is seen in the 20 to 49 year old group and the greatest decline has been in children and adolescents. No one should be forced to have their infant immunized but getting protection before adolescents is wise. We know that risky behavior causes most cases but there are still nearly 20% of new cases that can not be fully explained. 30% of people who contact Hep B never show any symptoms and most cure themselves in six to eight months, never know they had the disease and most are no longer a threat to the population after that time. About 10% develop a chronic disease and can continue to pass this along. It can rarely be picked up from a family member through the use of a common razor, or tooth brush other means. There is also a significant risk from tattoos body piercings sharing a pierced ear-ring. (something very common in today’s youth) About 10% of the folks born in SE Asia carry chronic Hep B. I have urged my friends from VN to be tested and two of 19 found they have chronic Hep B. They most likely contracted it at birth a time when 90% of the exposed become chronic if not treated with immunoglobulin. They had shown no symptoms and fortunately none of them are showing any signs of liver failure at this time. 30% of kids who contract the disease between ages 1 to 5 become chronic but only 6% become chronic if infected after age 5. 15 to 25% of chronic cases go on to die from chronic liver disease.
Maybe its because they see people die. They need consent because of the screwed up legal system we have that will stop 100 million people from getting a benefit because 10 people had a bad result.
Here’s an alternative: watch your daughter suffer and die now, instead of 30 years later. You can get HPV from your loving and faithful husband, who got it as a gift from an ex-wife. There is no haughty, self-righteous protection from this virus that guarantees your daughter won’t be exposed. Perhaps some people think that a single evening’s indiscretion justifies a slow painful death.
I’m not one of them. I wish to God they had invented that vaccine years ago.
But the human papilloma virus isn’t the only cause of cervical cancer and it doesn’t cause cervical cancer in all cases. It’s also not a public health issue like chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, and tuberculosis.
Jumping in late, and not reading what is already posted ahead of me – I just came from reading this Stephen guy’s areticle about not wanting any “free riders” on the vaccination bandwagons.
Well, he wrote his article from the perspective that sceptical parents are only afraid of vaccines that do not save their children from the disease so getting THEM vaccinated “does not good”.
I’ve heard NOTHING of parental complaints on THAT SCORE.
What I have heard for years – decades, in fact – is fears of parents, and also of horror stories from other parents, of vaccinations that permanently crippled or killed their children – who never had a chance, usually because there was not only NO WARNING TO PARENTS, but when symptoms popped up, the MEDICAL STAFF didn’t know what to look for, EITHER, and the child was often dead or permanently damaged before anyone figured out what was going on!
And there is NO RE-IMBURSEMENT for medical expenses and pain and suffering, for it, either!
Agent Orange, Desert Shield and/or Storm Syndrome.
And I had a childhood friend how got a “minor case” of Polio from the vaccine!
We had most of the vaccinations, but about 3/4 through one series, that in those days took 3,4 shots every few years for nearly two decades, I’ve forgotten which it was, though, our arms swelled up like nobodies’ business, and we ran high fevers for nearly a week – and we finally found out that the disease it was supposed to protect us from RESPONDED WELL TO ANTIBIOTICS if I remember right – so we started refusing to take that shot, that was administered at school, where we were often refused permission to go home AFTER the side effects began to namifest, even when our arm was twice its size and we were running as much as 104 degrees fever.
What I remember the last time this was a big issue was during the Clinton Years when Hillary’s Law Firm wanted permission to show up on our doorstep and arrest us the day our child missed a scheduled vaccine – even if family history showed several children of that family had died of THAT VACCINE, and if the child in question had a severe case of the flu and its doctor advised waiting 2 weeks or 6 weeks, or so to give the vaccine.
Arrest the parents WITH NO PRELIMINARY TO-DO WHATSOEVER. Just ON THE SPOT, even if the COMPUTER WAS WRONG about the status of the vaccine, the date, and whether it had or not been administered, etc. – and remove the children from those parents without what we MIGHT call “Due Process”.
I really really really hate Socialism.
Ptooie!
If vaccines are so great, then why do the vaccinated complain about the un- vaccinated. Presumably, if vaccines work, they are protected. So how does an un-vaccinated person pose a threat?
I remember 10 years ago, thereabouts, when the schools nearly put the anthrax vaccine that did so much ruination on our Desert Shield troops on the list of mandatory school vaccines, without telling ANYONE what the repurcussions might be in extraordinarily high numbers – up to 50%.
Turns out that half the vaccines were made with synthetic ingredients and half with natural ingredients, and in order to stop people from demanding one or the other – SAME AS THEY HAVE DONE WITH NATURAL AND SYNTHETIC HORMONE TREATMENTS – and to have “BLENDED RESULTS” from the testing, they made sure NOBODY KNEW WHICH WAS WHICH, when it came to the docs, or who got which one, and nobody administering them was to be able to KNOW the diff at all.
I told a handful of folks at the Head Start – from several different towns in one District – what some of the impact was on SOME of the military – they told me they would be FORBIDDEN to discuss such details with the parents – all they’d be able to tell them is that if they wanted their child to attend, the vaccine would be MANDATORY. PERIOD.
I challenged them about how much they loved those children, the premise by which they held their jobs, if they could stand by and watch THAT TYPE PROCEDURAL ADMINISTRATION of a crippling and killing vaccine – which was irreversable, even though the DISEASE could be treated with FIVE DAYS of ANTIBIOTICS.
AND KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT about the possible effects of it.
HOLD THAT CHILD IN THEIR OWN ARMS and watch someone give that vaccine, KNOWING the potential for a destroyed life and family, knowing what it had done to grown 1A military men in the prime of life.
From what I know, the same exact concerns exist for the same reasons in the production values for the HPV vaccination – way too much secrecy and way too much similar to the Anthrax vaccine production system.
Nobody in that system has EARNED our trust.
Go to ANY talk radio show and ask if anyone out there has had any experience or relatives with experience with Desert Storm Syndrome or Agent Orange, and then listen for the next two weeks or a month, until the Host gets totally fed up and the SUBJECT is still HOT AS HADES! And they haven’t talked to the same man twice.
Gothguy
all kinds of reason for them. Was tested even for diabetes at one time.
I used to have ear infections the same as you almost on a yearly basis for 20 years. I got told by doctors and Corpsmen
To make a long story short, when visiting relatives in central Missouri I started getting one. I went to an old country Doctor and told him my history. He took one look in my ear and said I have dry skin in my ears. He told me my ear aches were caused because my ears would get itchy and (prolly while I slept) I would scratch them and irritate them to the point of an infection. He handed me a tube of hydrocortisome and some Q-Tips and said when ever I noticed them itching to put a little of that in.
I haven’t had an infection again in over ten years.
That would be lovely if they guaranteed and insured there would be NO SYNTHETICS inthe vaccines – and you could KNOW they were not lying to you about it.
When I wrote the Texas Gov about my concerns when he was t rying to force mandatory vaccinations on school girls last year, his direct response to my letter ACKNOWLEDGED THE VALIDITY of MY CONCERNS but stressed he still FELT it was BEST for the MOST girls.
That isn’t good enough.
You may think a few years of Cancer is the worst thing you ever heard of – but you obviously haven’t listened to a month of military families discusing THE REST OF THEIR LIVES with Agent Orange or Desert Storm Syndrome on Talk Radio, which could be 30 – 40 – 50 – may be even 60 more YEARS of daily anguish and pain WITH NO KNOWN RELIEF. And I am talking ab out life with the sensations of a permanent BATH in POISON IVY, from head to toe. Staying in baths of solutions of combinations of hydrogen peroxide and of boric acid and Epsom Salts, and of Colloidal Oatmeal, and of baking soda, anything that DRAWS POISONS from the body – baths that must be repeated many many times throughout the day and night – when family can afford THAT MUCH of the bathing supplies which ARE NOT provided by the Government who made the vaccines MANDATORY.
EVERY DAY!
NO MORE WEDDING ATTENDANCES, not for children, grandchildren, etc – no more family reunions, etc – TOO BUSY ENDLESSLY BATHING not just to take the poison out, BUT FOR MINOR PAIN RELIEF!
No more pay checks – and because it embarrasses the govt for you to be a living testimony to their screw up – NO PENSIONS, EITHER!
Maybe some CHARITIES will bring you all the Epsom Salts you need!
Few Cancers last for DECADES, one way or the other.
There’s more than one way to catch Hep B (and A, and C), and that’s mainly though blood transfusions. If your child is in an accident and needs a transfusion, getting tainted blood is a bad thing, and a vaccination could save his or her life. Sure, its a longshot, but why take the risk?
And as for the HPV vaccine, why not offer it to men as well? If you really want to stomp out HPV and cerivical cancer, why not offer it to the other 50% of the population as well?
HPV isn’t always contracted through sex, either. But then again, there are numerous strains of it, and the vaccine only protects against a few. TO which I say, “What’s the point?”
And as for thimerosol vaccines, most normal vaccines for children no longer contain thimerosol. Some flu vaccines do, and those you should check before injecting.
Hey Dr. Jeffrey (included in Michelle’s post,) nice bedside manner. Did they teach you that in medical school?
I’m an educated parent. We did the research like Michelle for our son, born about the same time as Michelle’s. I enjoyed her post then, and I enjoy this one now. We decided against Hep B, and against the all in one vaccines. Instead, we went with more cautious vaccination schedules of the recent past. It seemed to be to be ridiculous to rush the process with an infant’s developing immune system. Not to mention vaccines such as Hep B which are clearly aimed at an at-risk population. There’s always a small percentage of the population with side effects from combined dosages. Why would any educated parent take that chance with their newborn?
What doctors must understand, is that the trend they are seeing comes not just from the Internet, or educated patients, but from empirical evidence on what the medical community is recommending. For example, the vast rise in C-section birth percentage in the US. C-section births are controlled surgical procedures that do generate a lot of revenue for hospitals. But there is clearly a risk from cutting a woman wide open and temporarily moving several of her organs to get to her uterus. All while natural birth probably works pretty darn well, or the human race would have ceased to exist long ago. My wife had both of our children vaginally, without pains meds and did just fine, like millions of women before her. Why take the risk of major surgery, until something goes wrong. Isn’t the first rule, do no harm?
Patients also notice the tendency of Western medicine to overmedicate, and propose pills for just about every conceivable symptom. Witness the many psychology prescriptions.
I am a huge supporter of doctors, western medicine, big pharma and capitalism, but patients have a responsibility to themselves first. There’s nothing wrong with making more cautious decisions, especially when more conservative vaccination schedules worked well enough on all of us in the last two generations.
Try respecting the patient a bit more as the first doctor in Michelle’s post did, and you’ll probably have a lot more success. And maybe you will realize that there are indeed some examples of systemic overreach in the medicine today.
Most doctors seem to think that’s an oxymoron.
Way 2 B MM. For sheer arrogance, the white-coated terrorist is right up there with the pols.
I think you were right to forego Prevnar. I too forbade the meningitis vaccines for my children. The statistics of the innoculated population vs the non-innoculated don’t support that the vaccine has any merit. And then there was one child, nearby, who became badly ill from the injection, got meningitis a few days later and died. They call it coincidence but the parents don’t think so. I’ve felt for them ever since.
I’m not sure why nobody’s mentioned it… but the Gov’t just had to admit in Federal Claims Court that giving the Hep B vaccine to a child with a particular underlying problem caused that child to become Autistic. Better educated minds than mine can check this one out, and tell us if it’s as bad as it looks. But it looks bad…
Hep B vaccine has not been shown to cause Autism in all cases… so far it’s just in this one kind of case, where a child has “an underlying mitochondrial disorder’. But if this is the case, shouldn’t the doctors screen for this condition before innoculations? Has anybody started screening for complicating factors present in kids, or do we just shoot ‘em up and hope for the best and play the odds in the hopes that it’s a good thing for ‘the herd’?
I’m a real skeptic on Vaccines. I’ll easily admit the advantages of a working vaccine. But ‘assembly line’ medical practices mean that treatments that are dangerous for some are mandated for all by Central Control. I cannot figure out where that is ever a good idea, especially in medicine.
The link to the Court Document that details the findings in that autism case are at the Huffington Post, as is the article going over the repercussions. Forgive me for linking to what is usually such a stinking cess-pit as HP, but in THIS case, it’s the only source I could find in a hurry that has the details.
Gee, Dr. “Jeffrey” , who answers ALL his patients’ questions meticulously and carefully, and patiently, was sure testy as the Dickens with Michelle!
“Get over yourself” – for having a doc be as snotty as Michelle’s doc had been with HER???????
SHEESH!
And he wonders why questioning the docs is a TREND!
I’ve had many of the same routines from doctors, and I have become very s keptical, too – because the fact is that most of them find an answer for most of their patients, and those of us who don’t fit neatly in a tiny pidgeonhole soon find ourselves in ANOTHER pidgeonhole.
And it isn’t fair, either!
And so we turn to the internet for enough information to make an informed decision.
Doctors should try it sometimes.
WOW! I’d heard there was a controversy, but I’d never slowed down and looked at it – and my 14 yr old got the Hep B vaccine at birth.
I hadn’t even thought about looking into them first, and by then, my husband was acting a bit strangely, so I was afraid it might be best to get it.
But so many cases, and folks do NOT fit a set “profile”.
I did some research regarding my heart about 10 years ago, and found that magnesium was an important supplement for heart health that isn’t usually well supplied in our food.
Soon, I discovered that it is essential to stopping muscle cramps and muscle spasms – which I had suffered most of my life and been on strong prescription medication for, all my adult life to that point!
Guess what! I got to get off the Prescriptions by taking Magnesium for my heart!
Looking into THAT, I found that the prescriptions being commonly given then, also dry up the stomach acids – anybody know many folks over 40 who are not over-dried out, and usually dehydrated, already? Well, if you don’t have enough stomach acid, and also don’t have enough B12, then your body doesn’t make enough of a natural anti-histimine substance that keeps you from having allergic reactions to EVERYTHING.
Yyour allergies sky-rocket.
For a while, every 5 minutes, EVERY TV station had TWO EACH of allergy med commercials and stomach acid commercials. Real funny – ha ha!!!
I found out if I added Ginger Root to my regimen, it is good for your stomach and also for your heart! So I am off the Prescriptions that helped cause my allergies to go through the roof and had kept me in bed for half the year for the previous 10 years.
This year, the allergens I used to react the worst to were at an all time high, and I hardly had any reaction to them at all – while most of my community was very ill for months at a time with it.
Another benefit of the magnesium – it makes CALCIUM STAY in the BONES and GETS IT OUT OF SOFT TISSUE – and that makes it a fighter of ARTHRITIS, too!
Well, That part about the cramps and spasms – I had some friends who had Restless Leg Syndrome – have you guys seen the SIDE EFFECTS of the Prescriptions for RESTLESS LEG SYNDROME in a commercial? UGH!
I told them that magnesium deficiency causes spasms and cramps and they should try it – many had gone through several different Prescriptions TO NO AVAIL, and were getting tested for body chemical balance as a last ditch effort to get some SLEEP! WITH NO MENTION FROM THE DOC OF MAGNESIUM.
Each person OF MY OWN PERSONAL ACQUAINTANCE who has tested, because of Restless Leg Syndrome, has tested and shown to have MAGNESIUM DEFICIENCY. And they all reported back in a few weeks that the magnesium has calmed down their legs.
Now – see what all a good doc could save a patient if they would test the patient with ANY of those symptoms for their magnesium levels – FIRST?
I think Dr. Jeffrey has given the real reason why so many doctors are quick to push vaccines no matter what. While he presents himself as just being concerned for the well-being of the children, the main justification he offers for requiring children to get all of the vaccinations is that he doesn’t want to get sued if parents refuse a vaccination and then their kids get sick. I’m sorry but a doctor’s fear of malpractice suits isn’t a compelling reason to allow them to pump your kids full of unnecessary drugs.
Parents don’t just have a right to make sure doctors are acting in their children’s best interest. They have a responsibility to do so. Any medical professional who doesn’t understand and respect that is someone I wouldn’t want treating my family or me.
All I can say is Thank God Congressman Murtha does not sit on the committee that oversees the agency that issues those approvals. The point being Dr. Jeffery is the system is not infallible. As HeatherRadish points out, the open borders democraps and RINOs would expose We the People to anything for a few more votes.
As a parent with two children with Asperger’s Syndrome, I agree with you 100%.
And as a side note, so does your “friend” Vox Day. http://voxday.blogspot.com/
Well, happy birthday Dr. Jeff. You have opened my eyes to the terrible way we treat our pediatricians when you stated, “being a pediatrician is a hard, largely unrewarding job”.
My goodness, pediatricians living in squalor, food stamps, welfare, no where to lay their weary heads. Now listen up people, put “love and kisses” on their checks, take a fresh chicken to them as payment, kiss their ring, offer to iron their smock. “unrewarded”, what a crock, “it’s sooo hard to be me”; when we get your bill it’s “hard to be us”!
We are raising our 11 month old with as little as possible from the medical establishment. We discussed not having her vaccinated until she was older, but decided since I work in an international business that it would be best to have her vaccinated. My concern is that the doctors have been pushing vitamins and floride. I just take the prescription and don’t fill it. We think it’s ridiculous to give infants vitamins and floride. This country is too addicted to pharmaceuticals. Besides, I believe medicine is more effective the less it is used otherwise our bodies develop an immunity to it.
That second letter you posted by “Jeffrey” nailed my opinion on this subject and the how you chose to write about this subject which I disagreed with.
Is this the new Scientology blog?
We just vaccinated our baby last month at his 2 month checkup. Our pediatrician is terrific. Very calm, soothting and takes his time to speak with us. We never feel rushed and he answers all of our questions in full detail. My wife is a Pediatric Occupational Therapist so she has a medical background and knows what questions to ask. Thankfully, we are lucky to have a great pediatrician that answers all of our questions. I feel sorry for those that don’t.
As for the shots, my son was fussy for about two days and didn’t sleep too much. He cried a bit more and did develop a fever but that went away 24 hours later. He developed a runny nose from all the crying and that was probably the worst of it because he would have trouble breathing through his nose. Within 3 days, he was back to normal. Our pediatrician told us if my son had a bad reaction that we will just use the DT (no P) at his 4 month checkup. I think we will go with the DTaP again though.
In a few years there might be a requirement that some females be vaccinated against pregnancy.
Just to be clear, if there was an AIDS vaccine, you’d have your kid get it? Right?
I got the Hep B shots when I was a teenager. That may be a more appropriate time than infancy. Still haven’t gotten my cervical cancer shots
I admire people’s willingness to be very clear on what’s entering their child’s body. But I think avoiding certain vaccinations is still a net negative. Negative side effects are mild and temporary. And no one wants their kid to get Hep B or cervical cancer. You can say you raised your children a certain way, but that only means so much. And you didn’t raise the people he/she fall in love with. (Well, hopefully anyways. Too early for incest jokes?)
#56 On March 25th, 2008 at 9:45 am, theroc5156 said:
“We just vaccinated our baby last month at his 2 month checkup. Our pediatrician is terrific.”
“As for the shots, my son was fussy for about two days and didn’t sleep too much. He cried a bit more and did develop a fever but that went away 24 hours later. He developed a runny nose from all the crying and that was probably the worst of it because he would have trouble breathing through his nose. Within 3 days, he was back to normal. Our pediatrician told us if my son had a bad reaction that we will just use the DT (no P) at his 4 month checkup. I think we will go with the DTaP again though.”
Good.
I remember.
“Been there, done that.”
Caution, thoughtfulness, and informed consent are the way to go.
However, vaccination should definitely not simply be broadly criticized and avoided.
My mother’s brother (born a year amd a half before she was) died of whooping cough at the age of 6 months in the mid-1920s, in the days before the pertussis, and other, vaccines.
BTW, our daughter had a shaking reaction to her first pertussis vaccination back in the mid-80s, so she recieved only the tetanus and diphtheria components for her next two installments.
Her two older brothers had no problems with the shots, other than the mild, expected reactions described by theroc5156 above.
We’ll probably recommend to our daughter that she consider getting the Adacel vaccine (contains a new, safer pertussis vaccine) in the near future.
Which certain vaccinations, Rusty? Please list in detail so that parents can share in your wisdom.
As a parent, there is no priority greater than doing what is in the best interest of your child’s health.
Informed consent is the only way to do that. Asking questions, demanding answers and doing research is the *least* one can do for their child. It is what a parent *should* do.
There are some links between some vaccines and autism. Some vaccines are made from embryonic stem cells. I – as a parent – have a right to question whether or not a vaccine is in the best interest of my child. If I deem it not in the best interest, I have the right to refuse it.
The argument that it’s for the “public good” that parents do something against their will is a slippery slope. Where does it stop?
I think every person in favor of vaccinations should also state whether or not they have children. Some of these posts reek of inexperienced intellectualism.
http://www.vaccineawakening.blogspot.com/
http://www.909shot.com/Loe_Fisher/blfTracking.htm
I’m late to comment here but I know a pediatrician who would not vaccinate his child on the approved schedule (waited until he was older) and then only for certain things. He was also tolerant of his patients’ (their parents really) feelings and wishes.
We recently received a notice/request for our two older children to receive a meningitis vaccine. Having had a friend die from that I did authorize the vaccine, but I did so with some misgivings. The vaccine is new to me. I was not able to determine effectively the track record of the vaccine, is it effective? What side effects does it have? What about any other risks associated with it.
So, for good or ill, I authorized the request this time around… but Michelle brings up a number of valid points which I will consider for the future.
I didn’t read all the posts so maybe someone has a similar story …
I am a 27 year old, married female. I go to the doctor yearly for my screenings. At my last screening (age 26) they told me I had to get Gardasil (HPV) vaccine. I said no. It was over $900, it’s not as effective in already sexually active women, I said no.
Oh my Lord you would have thought I’d said no to CPR after drowning. “Well you know that you’re at risk for contracting HPV.”
How? I’m married. My husband is faithful.
Response – “well…”
Oh I see. I’m hedging my bets that my husband will cheat.
My response? If that’s the case, I should demand he wear protection, as AIDS and a lot of other diseases can be contracted that way too.
I will not give my child a trend vaccine just because they say the FDA approved it. The FDA approved Vioxx and people died. Not the same as a vaccine, but it’s the same organization doing the approving.
We home school. We accepted a third-party curriculum provided by a local school district. As part of the paperwork to get our kids “enrolled” they asked for the kids shot records.
Why would the public school system care if a kid who was never going to darken the door of a government school had all of his shots?
Also… they sent us forms to see if our kids qualified for the free school lunch program.
Oh, and I don’t install an operating system until it’s been out at least a year and has at least one service pack.
Why would I let a doctor inject an unnecessary vaccine into my kid before I have time to see how many children it messes up?