Video: Another campus pro-life memorial vandalized
It has happened again. In January 2006, pro-abortion thugs destroyed a pro-life memorial of wooden crosses at Louisiana State University. In April 2006, a nutball feminist professor at Northern Kentucky University led another destructive raid on a pro-life Cementery of Innocents. And this week, at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, pro-abortion vandals struck–pulling up hundreds of crosses from a display sponsored by Pointers for Life. College Republican Ryan Wrasse sent me a video of one of the pro-abortion thugs gone wild– a student government senator named Roderick King:
Caution: Liberal tolerance at work.
RAAAARGGGHH!
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Joan Appleton is very likely full of crap. You’d think that if this “screaming fetus” phenomenon were so common, that we’d have heard of it from some non-partisan sources, hmm?
I wasn’t talking to you little girl.
Like Russ, I too am an adoptive father. Four of my 13 are adopted, and all four of them have special needs, plus one of my natural-born sons. It’s not cheap, believe me. But it is worth every penny, second, and bit of aggravation.
Down Syndrome, premature birth, dislocated hips, kidney infections, autism, and varying degrees of separation anxiety and attachment disorders.
I’ll take them. They’re not inconvenient. They’re not “choices.” they’re children.
Rusty, if you wish to approach this with your head in the sand. Be my guest. And good luck with the search to find the evidence that’s suitable to you.
Roderick King’s right NOT to SEE a protest is tantamount to an atheist’s right NOT to HEAR about God.
If I was that hyper-sensitive and insecure about my beliefs, I’d abort myself.
Rusty,
You had us at “100% fiction”.
“100% fiction”
Sad, but true. But it doesn’t mean I am going to sit back and let murder and rape become legal either just because some people are going to do it.
If by safer you mean less women die while trying to murder their own child…
Never seen one legit study ever claim this, statistics and links please on your wild Eugenics-based claims?
Wrong again, it is being used as another form of after-the-fact birth control. Stats and links from a legit and verifiable source please?
LOL TMoney!
I think its nice to see rusty refute TOS on this. Giving credit where its due.
I think most of his post was garbage. Glad to see i wasnt the only one who thought so.
30, at the end of the first trimester, when most abortions occur, the fetus most likely doesn’t even have skin yet. There is no heart beat yet. The brain hasn’t developed. There are no lungs. Any google search of non-partisan scientific sources will confirm this.
And fetal pain is something anti-abortion people have made up to drum up sympathy.
…Which is why I think Joan Appleton is full of crap.
Please give me the rate of complications resulting from first trimester abortions. This rate is available for all medical procedures performed in the United States.
Except for Abortion.
If you can’t cite the rate of complications, you can’t make a ridiculous statement like that.
The fact is that no one knows how safe or unsafe abortions really are.
One would think that Mr. King, being black, would be upset at those pushing abortion considering the recent audio recordings involving Planned Parenthood agreeing to direct donations to abort black babies.
One would also think the policeman, security guard, rent-a-cop, whatever, would have busted the guy on the spot for vandalism. Instead, he starts walking away, then appears to speed up as if he noticed the camera.
Admittedly, she did not specify the term when the abortions she participated in occurred; however, that isn’t to say that it negates her claim. Perhaps the abortions she partook of where late term abortions. Either way the approrpriate response isn’t “full of crap.” I choose to believe her.
Here (and you can also use this site as a reference for crime stats)
It logically follows from the research link I provided above. Check here for stats that support it.
Ridiculous statement? Safer, not safe. So you think illegal abortions were safer than today’s legal procedures?
Good point, 30. Late term abortions are a different matter and something I don’t support unless the mother’s health or life is in danger. I am perfectly happy with Justice O’Connor’s viability threshold from Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Anything after viability I have a very big problem with.
On May 7th, 2008 at 1:34 pm, Rusty said:
…Which is why I think
Joan Appletonis Rusty is full of crap.You know what Joan went through? You know what a
fetusbaby that is being pulled apart is going through? Joan is NOT the only former worker who has had this same experience. Are they ALL full of crap?You say the Pro-life makes up “fetal pain” to “drum up sympathy.”?
I submit, the Pro-death people have been working very hard to keep what really happens behind closed doors from the public eye because if people really knew about abortion and how it hurts women (and kills babies in the most vile ways), abortion would die and not babies.
Please don’t call someone who has been there full of crap. That would be akin to me telling you that you are full of crap when you rant about DC while you live there and I have visited once.
Every woman I have ever known that aborted a child had serious mental problems as a result. I have done my best to help some of them but in many cases it is hopeless. That explains the lib mindset I don’t need any so called studies to understand that. When their islamist buddies get a hold of them and theirs they wont have to worry about abortion. As soon as they determine they are pregnant they will cut your head off, yep, call it a really late term abortion if you will. There’s nothing they can do to stop it and I feel sorry for anyone related to these types especially defenseless children. The few decent looking libs wives girlfriends etc. will bring a good price in the infidel brothel though.
TOS,
You have no evidence anecdotal or otherwise that supports your conclusion that legal abortions are “safer” than illegal ones.
Unless someone had a way to keep score before legalization (in states where abortion was illegal), no one really knows for sure.
Saying it is safer now is not a fact. Find some way to support that statement.
Now, are you gonna make me repeat myself again, or are you going to at least try to comprehend what I said?
-libocrat
I assumed as much, actually. Really, I was just poking fun at your wording. This topic seems to erase the normally healthy sense of humor found in most people.
Heh, the best TOS has to offer is two liberal professors “study”. I at least give you props for providing 1 link, I had my money you couldn’t even find 1.
But I think the bio’s of the two authors ought to be enough to see these two’s pre-conceived notions on social issues:
OT – Ok, I won’t defend the ad-hominem attack, but the visuals on that link didn’t help. Just sayin’…
/OT – If someone had stomped all over an AIDS quilt, I doubt you would have made the baseball and frisbee statement in response.
We don’t. It taints everything else – from taxes “for the children” to environmentalism “to save the planet for the children” – that our society is so callous about life.
Not only the lives of the unborn, but those considered “unfit” – the disabled, the elderly. There is often a claim that pro-lifers *only* care about unborn children.
Not true. But the disrespect for life in *all* stages flows from the notion that life does not begin at conception, and that life “ends” when one is no longer “desirable”.
I think that is the most outrageous thing I’ve ever heard you say. By the 9th week after conception, a baby’s nervous system is starting to “kick into gear“. By the 12th week of pregnancy – still the first trimester, mind you – the “baby’s fingers will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response.” A clear sign the nervous system (and, therefore, the ability to detect pain), is present. A 12-week-old unborn child looks distinctly human.
I would highly suggest you watch the film “Silent Scream” (warning: NSFW and NS for those who are sensitive). Then come back and tell me 1) that child was not human and 2) that child did not feel pain.
Pro-abortion folks deny a child – up to the point of birth – cannot feel pain in order to dehumanize the child and justify the evil they perpetuate in the name of “choice”…
I personnaly don’t care if a person decides to end an unborn childs life. We have that choice. Our Maker will judge us based on the decisions we make.
I do mind when some leftwing nutsack decides he is above the Constitution of my United States. Tolerence my ass! These people are nuttier than squirel terds.
EQ, I provided a link from a non-partisan source (the AMA) that states in no uncertain terms that there is no such thing as fetal pain until a few weeks into the third trimester. I’m not saying outrageous.
Things like this are just another example of the extent anti-abortion types will go to make a point. Tgusa, your small sample size means nothing to me. I also know people who have had abortions and are just fine and dandy.
Abortions do not cause mental illness. Abortions do not cause breast cancer. Fetuses do not feel pain. These lies have all been scientifically disproven and it still isn’t enough.
I understand why people are anti-abortion. It’s not like I don’t get it. Just like I get why people are pro-capital punishment and pro-invasion of Iraq. Just because I don’t agree with something doesn’t mean I don’t understand it. But when people start making stuff up or taking anecdotes and turning them into macro-sized facts is when you lose me.
But this is the problem, Rusty. You decide that “anything after viability” is a “problem”.
Well, what if that child is not considered human by some? What if that child is “unwanted” or “unplanned”. The notion that abortion is okay from conception through the first trimester, but that the baby is magically human *after* that point doesn’t hold water.
A child is human, and uniquely so, from the moment of conception. It cannot be classified any other way.
Your assertion that Joan Appleton is “full of crap” is disheartening. She saw what she was doing, realized it was wrong, and changed her point of view.
No doubt if I decided abortion was “okay” and began working at Planned Parenthood – you wouldn’t think I was full of crap. Just that I’d “seen the light”…
Since most of my views meet with Appleton’s, does that make me “full of crap”, too?
It makes me very sad that you think something as horrific as abortion is a right or a necessity, and that you defend it while 3,000 children will be denied the right to live – today. Tomorrow. And the day after that.
A culture that does not embrace life has no future. And we will reap what we sow.
Anyone want’s to play nice stay silent and avoid the truth like we have done for too long now have at it. Ad hominem attack, can you say Rosie? If I had a dog that looked like that I’d shave its butt and teach it to walk backwards. I’m not playing Charlie Brown to their Lucy but anyone who chooses to is fine by me I won’t complain. Am I sometimes mean, damn straight.
#3 rusty said:
True that!! If I had a nickel for every game of lawn jarts those militant homosexuals ruined with that tacky quilt, I’d be retired already!
I’m so with you on this one, rusty!
TOS,
I briefly read your link about abortion dropping crime stats.
I didn’t buy it, really. It’s a convenient argument. And it seems to fit.
How about a different take?
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/uoc–nrr021207.php
I have to admit that the one i’ve submitted, at least on its face, makes more sense. In essence, it quotes things like increased police size/presence, among other things, as reasons for declines in crime.
I’ll leave everyone to read and review.
Oh and off-topic but thanks for clarifying earlier abstractmind and my apologies for jumping to conclusions.
Hello, I’m talking about real life experiences not university or scientific sponsored studies (that’s a contradiction right there). Liberals say that CO2 is pollution it’s a scientific study you know. Never mind that plants love it and convert it into oxygen. Go back to the Middle Ages there was a group called the flagellants who sounded similar to you. After a while though the people started thinking that they were bringing a curse on them and that’s why there are no flagellants today.
#39 wrote:
This is an interesting take, but I’m not sure it’s accurate. According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute:
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.
That’s an awful lot of middle and upper-middle class women getting abortions.
#92 wrote:
Yeah. That Angelina Jolie is a real D-O-G dog. Jessica Alba – gag. Scarlet Johannson…barf. Halle Berry (yuckers).
Rusty, from my post earlier…
I’m not a woman. but i’ve experienced as much of that situation, as close as I can be to it. While it didnt drive me insane (and i consider myself a rather stalwart fellow)…it does play on the mind. It is a pain that doesn’t go away. Alot of possibilities one never gets to experience.
I don’t even pretend to understand how a woman could feel about it. Its a sad affair all the way around.
Just my 2 cents on that.
And that’s fine griz..I didnt take offense. I could have been more clear, and was not. my fault entirely
Evidently liberals don’t understand the word most, shocker. All the women you mentioned, islamist concubines in the future nothing more. There will probably be a long line.
Levitt’s response
Levitt and Donohue addressed these factors in their research (if you read the whole thing). Although they do help in decreasing crime, they don’t explain the full picture. Your link said the same thing:
Where did the other 40% come from? Could it be from “favorable demographics in terms of a drop in the high-risk population of teens to 29-year-olds”?
Perhaps. Unfortunately, I didnt have the time to read them all, and for that I’m responsible.
Where could it have come from?
Well….
Community Actionsm, such as Neighborhood Watch? Those have been effective for years in assisting law enforcement in deterring crime.
Gun Control Laws (which are shown to reduce crime), allowing citizens to arm themselves and be a deterrence to crime themselves?
Tougher laws on criminals acting as a deterrent?
Better educational opportunities? Check the education stats, i’m sure something comes up there, and would be surprised if it came back otherwise. And i’m sure there are studies that link level of education to crime as well.
Longer prison terms so that prisoners aren’t on the streets? Also possible, I would suppose.
I dont necessarily discredit your idea. I just have a huge problem believing it had the impact you are suggesting, or that the report states.
I apologize I havent had more time to research. Looks like i have some homework to do for next time.
What I have always found incredible is that at a specific moment in time the heart…starts to beat WOW!!!
So I am to take Levitt’s retort that he is right and Foote and Goetz are wrong as gospel? Got it, thanks. /sarc
Obviously you didn’t follow the link that Levitt provided.
TOS- Please pardon the question, but your link to abortion statistics is from a gentleman with a PHD in Physics and Astronomy. What is his authority on the subject?
TOS – PS.
I know of someone that worked at a clinic. They do not disclose adverse health effects caused by the removal of a child from the womb.
There is a high rate of miscarriges and difficult pregnancies thereafter once the procedure has been performed. Not to mention, the phychological toll it takes on the woman.
Oh I did, but I don’t need two liberal professors looking for a way to justify abortion by searching through crime statistics in the U.S. as a means to justify their liberal views. If they wanted the study to be all inclusive they would have included other countries where abortion remains illegal and compared crime rates there as well.
Not to mention your entire argument is off topic to the original discussion. Weren’t you the loon who originally proposed pro-choice demonstrators had “a lot of catching up to do” in the violent crimes sector? Lol, interesting that you would be the one to promote violence as a viable means of demostration by using past examples of violence on the other side as a basis for your claim. All while stealthly avoiding the fact that pro-life groups publicly denounce the violence by the extremists on our side and applaud the justice system putting them in jail for their crimes. I don’t see the left responding in the same way even a quarter of time to violence on their side. In fact they generally applaud and encourage it.
Rusty; if you feel like responding to me, I ask that you not respond to me. You have no idea what makes a fetus viable. You are not an authority, and you are certainly not mine.
EQ, you keep saying that and I keep saying this: I’d believe that if the anti-abortion crowd were even a little bit interested in outlawing IUDs and Plan B.
Conception, implementation, viability, birth. Every one has their lines in the sand.
I forgot the Constitution says that I don’t have a right to oppose Supreme Court rulings… [/sarcasm]
I’m kind of grateful to this bonehead King for pulling up the crosses. It would never have appeared in the news had he allowed them to stand undisturbed. His tantrum not only brought publicity to the Anti-abortionist message, his sanctimonious behavior points to the wrongness of his “cause” and the inanity of the Left as a whole. Hear, hear! Way to go, Rodrick King! (Rodney King? Whoa, Déjà vu!)
#146 said:
It would have been a nice touch if the camera man had asked the unhinged Roddy King, “Can’t we all just get along?”
So despite the fact that women only seek third trimester abortions if a) their life/health is in danger or b) they have been denied access to an abortion earlier on in the pregnancy (Did you know 87% of American women don’t have access to an abortion provider in their county?) — Rusty thinks the solution to late term abortions — the one type of abortion that bothers him — is to make the process take longer?
Which type of late-term abortion would that decrease? The kind where women whose health/lives were in danger had to jump through hoops that will extend the amount of time their health is compromised *OR* the kind where women weren’t able to get access in the first place?
If you actually cared about not aborting viable fetuses you’d be working towards getting women better health care, information and access to birth control earlier in their repoductive stages, not putting the women — and their developing fetuses — through more hell once the decision had been made.
A few years back, a female buddy of mine (against my advice), sought an abortion. She had it, and in our friendship since, has exhibited absolutely no signs of lasting impact from the experience.
See, I can present anecdotes too. In fact, I just made that one up off the top of my head.
We often bash liberals for deciding things emotionally, rather than rationally (planning to vote for Obama, for instance). . .and yet on this issue, I find the reverse. Conservatives tend to be irrational in the face of any and all information contrary to their position on abortion. I’ve always found that rather strange.
Yashmak,
Since you’re addressing it…
I drift towards conservative values. Doesn’t mean I’m completely there, but…
Please tell me which of my posts have been irrational, overly emotional, or poorly written. I’ve noticed most of the posts here are well written, thought out, and present valid viewpoints, and on both sides. When i contested TOS’ information earlier, was I flying off the handle, or resorting to ad hominem attacks? The others who are posting here as well along those lines (EQ, for one) don’t see to be irrational or hysterical in their positions. I would have to say, for the most part, this just doesnt bear out in the thread.
Are there people who are going to be over the top? Of course. And that’s on both sides. But again, just reading the threads here, your position just doesnt appear the way you present it.
But making light of others experiences, just because I don’t have a website to produce it from, cheapens your argument, especially when you make them up. The least you can do, if you want to talk about being rational and calm, is to not act obtuse about it.
Again, my 2 cents.
Uh… Pro-life groups worked diligently agaisnt Plan B. Women only recently were able to purchase it over the counter, despite the FDA acknowledging that it was safe for sale. An official from the FDA even quit over the pill being delayed by pro-life politics.
As far as IUDs — I think because it’s a less popular (or publicized) method in the US that it hasn’t been addressed as widely.
Why not instead of “lines in the sand” choose if you think abortion should be legal or illegal. Making restrictions based on rape, the life of the mother, incest, what have you only get bureaucracy involved (the woman has to prove she’s not lying) and if the abortion is eventually granted to the woman, the fetus is more developed and likely to be “viable” — which you say you oppose. Man up!
Oh Lordy. Because anti-abortion advocates are NEVER sanctimonious.
Liberals always make things up. No wonder more people each day are saying no to the chicken little’s and their theories.
When they are, you can make that argument. This time they weren’t.
Vandalizing the display, this demonstration, this 1st Amendment exercise is sanctimonious. The demonstration itself isn’t. If he wanted to rebut the demonstration he could have done so without infringing the demonstrator’s 1st Amendment rights.
Oh, I certainly agree. But the comment someone made was that this one person proves that the entire pro-choice argument has no legs to stand on. If we’re going to cherry pick people behaving badly, every political ideology comes out looking stupid.
The time for choice is before the problem occurs not after especially in the modern world. But libs aren’t interested in responsibility or accountability that’s obvious. People don’t care if libs want to hump each other most of them just don’t want to take out what the liberals consider trash afterward. Libs want what they want when they want it a lot like an infant does and to hell with anyone else. They have a problem with even a display of anti abortion positions. This goes much deeper than killing the unborn and tells us all we need to know about liberals.
Not quite. They’ll allow the baby to be born–there is no abortion in Islam–THEN they will kill the infidel whore.
You’d think the lack of abortion “rights” under Sharia law would make those who are pro-abortion wary of implementing it here, but it doesn’t seem to register.
Like Dredd Scott?
#157 HeatherRadish. You are right how stupid of me. Thanks for setting me straight.
Why, Rusty, is this *always* your argument?
Fine, let’s outlaw *all* chemical contraception and Plan B.
You happy now? Because I’ve argued before that we’re not *always* certain conception occurs with an IUD or the Pill.
With Plan B, it’s more likely.
With abortion, there is no doubt conception has occurred. Abortion is the *willful* and *knowing* destruction of an unborn child.
So there is a difference. Repeat what I’ve written as necessary until it sinks in.
Yashmak: Liberals often accuse conservatives of being heartless. Funny how they decide it’s wrong for us to show emotion on an issue as grotesque, evil and unnecessary as abortion. So forgive us if we don’t get all teary-eyed over the housing crisis, but do at the willful murder of children.
By the by, to both of you, do you know that abortion often entails dismembering the unborn child? Or burning him with saline? Or injecting her with the same mixture used in lethal injection (you know, the one deemed “too cruel” to use on criminals)?
How can you justify that? How is that ever right or acceptable? Denial isn’t just a river in Africa, apparently…
With IUDs, there’s no preventative measures against contraception. If millions of women with IUDs are having sex without their partner using a condom, then it goes without saying that there have been tons of conceptions that go nowhere.
But since we can’t individually confirm each one, they don’t count?
Obviously abortion and the forms of birth control I mentioned are different and it’s more than reasonable to be ok with Plan B and an IUD and not a first trimester abortion.
It just doesn’t mesh with the “life begins at conception” line. I guess “life beings at implementation” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Rusty,
I guess this is a bit odd, but here goes…
As far as “life begins at conception”, i would submit that the idea of living beings creating other living beings would have to involve some semblance of life, right? It makes logical sense, if nothing else.
In some odd way, when people say life doesnt begin at conception, it makes me think of Spontaneous Generation…and that was first debunked back in 1668.
I just cant see where something living starts out as something nonliving, to then become living. I think the hang up for this is that people don’t see sperm or eggs as “living”. sperm do move on their own, though i dont consider them sentient, thinking creatures. I just have a hard time scientifically showing that something inanimate leads to the growth of a human embryo.
Not saying I have the answers, but for as much as people want to deny life begins at conception, there’s little else to go on fact wise. On the other hand, arguing that life does in fact begin there has at least solid implied evidence, beyond my simple musing here.
Work is done, time to go home.
till tomorrow
Okay, so that’s progress. You acknowledge I’m being reasonable. Why not share that point of view?
As I said above – even mid-way through the first trimester, an unborn child is no longer a “clump of cells”…but human.
And as I’ve said elsewhere, I believe life begins at conception, and I do not use contraception in accordance with my beliefs.
It does come down to intent. Willfully walking into a Planned Parenthood to have an abortion on your 10-week-old is a willful act meant to destroy a life.
Good lord.
10 year old gives birth in Idaho
This is where the abortion debate gets murky for me. I can’t imagine making a ten year old go through that.
When did this become a debate about abortion? I thought the story was about the First Amendment and how Liberals spit on it if its a Conservative who is squelched.
These murders are flat out wrong.
Then there are the billions of murdered babies to, lest we forget.
Perhaps YOU have a lot more Math to do…..
(very one sided ridiculous argument)
I am sorry, Mookie, debate on what? The illegal immigrant that raped this child? Or her giving birth?
Yup, your right…seriously murkey waters.
Rusty, I believe you meant the word bolded above to be “conception”, right? (Just a clarification point… I assumed it was from typing too fast.)
I admit I did not know much about IUDs outside of generalities; however, the more I look, the more I see their primary function being to prevent conception, but that there is a secondary role in preventing implantation. From what I can tell, some Pro-Life folks have raised this as an issue. I have not yet seen a reference that refers to IUDs as being only about anti-implantation.
However, your argument that this is a relative line in the sand may fall apart if the majority of pro-lifers understood IUDs better. A lack of complete understanding or a desire to target the far more obvious abortion procedures does not necessarily make the pro-life crowd hypocritical for not doing more against IUDs (IMHO).
Well it’s a little difficult to separate first amendment rights from abortion when the story revolves around first amendment rights and abortion.
Oh, there’s no debate on him. I hope he spends the rest of his pathetic life in agonizing torture.
I don’t know what I would do if that were my child. Child birth that was a product of rape? That little girl has already suffered enough for a lifetime. On the flip side, maybe years from now, she’ll be grateful she didn’t have an abortion. I just can’t imagine being faced with that decision.
A lifetime of agonizing torture? You don’t mean send him home do you? How mean of you Mookie don’t ya know its one big concentration camp down there?
I’m not sure of the point you’re trying to make but no, I don’t mean send him home. I want him in one of our prisons for the rest of his life. Let the other inmates do what they normally do with child rapists.
I guess the sarcasm was too thick to cut through. Sorry.
No, I’m sorry. I thought you were probably being sarcastic but I wasn’t positive and wanted to make sure no one thought I was advocating sending him back instead of prison.
I will NEVER ever understand the mindset of some people. A group of students came up with a visual representation of how many babies are aborted every day. If this had been 4,000 desecrated US flags, liberal students would be praising it as “free-speech art.” Instead, since it gives a scope of how many babies have been killed by a procedure that (tradtionally) is supported by liberals and opposed by conservatives, someone goes nuts and destroys the display. Would Roderick King have started pulling up crosses if they represented, say (for the sake relevancy to a college student) the number of people killed by drunk driving?
I guess it just boggles my mind that someone could have found the display offensive. I can understand being irritated or inconvenienced because you and your friends were planning to play frisbee or football in that spot and had to come up with new plans. That really is understandable. But offended? To the point of vandalism? How on earth does a person come to that point in their mind?? Good grief…
#150 abstractmind
Ouch! Didn’t mean to rile you up.
FYI, I wasn’t referring to any particular comment, just the overall ‘gist of what I have read on every abortion related commentary here (and not just here. . . pretty much everywhere this issue is discussed).
And my production of an anecdote wasn’t meant to cheapen others’ experiences, as much as it was meant to back up the assertion that if we’re going to argue the facts on abortion, anecdotal evidence is worthless. It may be real, it may not be real, but as already stated, the sample size is never large enough to be representative of reality.
– englishqueen
Yes, I did know that. You did read that I’m personally against abortion, right? And I think Rusty did a good job of covering the matter of ‘too cruel’. How can it be considered pain if the fetus is not even aware of it (no pain sensation)?
Everyone draws a line as to when a fetus becomes a person somewhere, and I’ve drawn mine at viability. Until that point, I don’t consider a fetus a human being. Different folks draw the line different places, and once drawn, they are seldom if ever re-drawn elsewhere. I have yet to see a convincing moral or physical argument that can persuade me my belief on this issue is wrong. . .but I’m sure you’re equally convinced you’re right too (and I respect that). It’s just. . .how to put this. . if you can draw the line anywhere back to the conception of the fetus, why not go a step further and condemn masturbation? I mean, each sperm IS a potential child, right?
This issue always makes my head hurt, and as a result, I try to inject humor into the discussion. . .which is pretty much the last thing people want, when talking about abortion
tgusa,
I saw the sarcasm in your comment right away, and I understand Mookie’s response. We’re all on the same side there.
Mookie,
You have a really great point in what to do about a 10 year old rape victim. It is not a choice any of us wants to make, even most libs.
I do want to take this opportunity to point one thing out for our liberal friends: Mookie’s post is exactly the kind of story that the left loves to bring up as an example of why abortion should be universally accepted and allowed. Here’s what I mean:
The vast majority of abortions each year are actually after-the-fact birth control. We’ve plowed that ground already today. The few cases of rape or incest are brought up instead of the purely elective abortions whenever this issue arises in debate.
If you factor out the purely elective abortions, the number of rape or incest victims obtaining abortions will be so low there would likely be no discussion of the matter, because there would be so few.
That’s what I mean when I call this kind of case a red herring. It is not that it does not occur, it is that the occurance is so rare it is not enough to justify the enormous number of abortions each year.
Heh? How do you know this?
Absolutely ridiculous.
Nonsense. Absolute horse-pucky. Without an egg, there is no potential child. Period.
Hopefully you do not need a picture drawn as to how that happens….
Surely you read enough to realize that the ridiculousness of that notion was the whole point. . .or is this just an example of ridiculing someone who has a differing view of abortion than you do?
Surely you read enough of my post to track back to the AMA study cited by another commenter in this very topic, right? Apparently, the AMA doesn’t think it’s ridiculous, and I suspect they know a hell of a lot more about a fetus than you or I.
Here’s where I draw the line. If it’s not viable, it’s not yet a child. I respect that many of you differ, but it is obvious that the respect of differing viewpoints is not reciprocated. It is an example of the irrationality inherent in any debate on this topic, an irrationality I pointed out earlier, and was ridiculed for.
Sorry folks, but on this issue I differ from my conservative bretheren, and always will.
Fancy yourself that interesting do ya? The AMA isnt always right. Did you know a fetus can hear, smell and taste in the womb?
Doctors have one perspective…but doesnt mean they are accurate. Unless you are a fetus, there is absolutely no way of convincing me they cannot feel pain. How would doctors know with any certainty about this….
If you attempted a hyperbole, perhaps (sarc on/off) would be warranted where your words fail to provide that sentiment. I dont read minds.
Refute claim thusly…
Then make claim…
Classic!
For pete’s sake. Setting aside for the moment that I don’t have any idea what your first statement there mean. . . Follow the thread back a bit! The AMA study comments on the period before the 3rd trimester.
Yes. They have the perspective of professionals who have actually studied the human body at great length, know how it works, what it is capable of, and what it is not capable of. Who should I trust, if not the experts on the body? You won’t believe doctors’ statements about a fetus’ ability (or lack thereof) to sense pain before the third trimester, but you’ll believe they can hear, smell, and taste in the womb? I’m willing to bet that information came from doctors too, right? So why trust it then?!? Do you not see the double-standard you’re setting up?
I never figured you could. . .you shouldn’t have needed to to understand the point I was making.
So, my points ARE that I believe they CAN feel pain, and that they CAN taste, hear and smell….
What is your point TOS/Yashmak????
At least I am consistant???
The main difference between the two line in the sands is quite large however.
With conception it is clearly defined as when the sperm and egg fuse and a distinct/unique set of new DNA is formed that if allowed to gestate will (assuming no complications) be born as a fully viable human being.
With viability, that point of which a baby is viable outside the womb is changing yearly based on advanced medical devices and technology. As many pro-life people point out on this segment of the overall argument, there may come a point in the near future where we can keep a baby at (for the sake of argument) 16 weeks or less, alive and developing with the help of machines much like they already do for babies at 24+ weeks that have managed to survive.
So with the definition of viability outside the womb being your moral line in the sand, would you then have to switch the timeline to the new definition? What if we were able to, by some form of not-yet-developed science, keep a child alive from 1 week or even implantation itself at 0 weeks? At that point your line in the sand will have moved all the way back to where (our line in the sand is, as in EQ, myself, and countless others) conception is the start of human life.
BS…that was the whole point of my post. You don’t believe what the AMA says because “unless you are a fetus” there is no way to be 100% sure. Yet, you are fine declaring that a fetus can taste, hear, and smell without that same proof. That is inconsitent!
#186 – I didnt get my findings that they can taste, hear and smell from the AMA…therefore, sir, you are wrong…I am consistent.
Again…I BELIEVE that they can feel pain, that they can taste, hear and smell.
None of these things I BELIEVE are attributed to the “AMA”. This is not a medical issue for me….fair enough?
No go crawl back in your hole.
R.King and his ilk (sp) have been taught a LIE. Even the most intelligent among us tend to believe those “authoritarian” figures who taught us along the way.
When we learn the truth – it sets us free -it also makes us angry that we were lied to.
R.King is lucky he will not be the 3rd MISSING – student in his graduating class. YES, when next you go to a grad. ceremony count:
1…2…MISSING – 1…2…MISSING thanks to the pro-death advocates-since Roe V Wade- one student out of three is not with us here on earth.
LFL
I cannot dispute what you believe. However, please look at how you phrased it in your original post:
There is a huge difference between “did you know” and “do you believe”.
I BELIEVE you are just trying to CYA after getting caught with a double-standard.
Licensed AMA Doctors regularly amputate the wrong limbs. I don’t know about the rest of you but if you have to draw a big red x on the proper limb for the doctor to get it right I believe it is reasonable to assume that they don’t know squat about, well, more complicated matters.
#189 – Earth to TOS (too late)…i NEVER at any point referenced the AMA as a point of reference for my “Belief”.
No CYA here. You read what you wanna read.
#191 –
Where did I claim that you referenced the AMA? Like I said before, your use of the word “know” leads one logical to believe the existence of evidence rather than just “belief”.
If it is all about your “belief”, why did you use the phrase “did you KNOW”?
You all surely see what I’m saying about this topic now. We’ve descended into he-said-she-said. This is an argument that cannot be won. . will never be won.
I can’t believe I got involved in the first place.
Why? The thugs and goons that erected shanty towns on college campuses in the 80s had no concern for others.
TOS, POS, whatever…..
Listen one more time…I’ll try to speak stupid for ya.
The AMA is not the authority on everything..namely things within this specific realm.
There are pleanty of studies out there that would tell you that babies 1) suck their thumbs and 13-17 weeks, and 2) are sensative to hot and cold tempatures as well.
And then there are Mothers, they will ALSO tell you that eating spicy foods sometimes gets the baby moving around more than bland tasting food. Some doctors may even tell you this.
I know, I believe is irrelevent here. I did not use the AMA to prove any of this, so quit arguing semantics with me.
This is like saying that the Teachers Union knows what is best for children…its a crappy authority and they hold no weight with me…
ARE WE SQUARE HERE?
Now, kindly get off my arse….
# 195 feebiebabe you are right on!
Baby in womb – a real PERSON!:
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/babysamuel.htm
If they see and still do not believe-just let them go….to …………
How many of these pro abortionists realize that the Lord has said that He knew us before we even entered the womb? How many of these same people would have the courage on Judgement Day would advocate abortion? I used to be a pro abortion person myself until I realized that the act eventually cheapens life in society. I will not be surprized if some of the abortion folks would want to make post birth abortion legal which would give mothers lot more choices.
Most Americans are unaware that BHO supports partial birth abortions you know when the baby doesn’t die when its supposed to so they kill it. Monstrous but that’s only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Hey it’s my alma mater! …sigh… Looks like a beautiful spring day there in central Wisconsin.
This isn’t the first time this has happened at that school. It’s pretty surprising just how far left the campus is, considering it’s in a very rural, blue-collar town.
That King kid is just one of many, especially on the “Student Government,” which skews about 98% left. I went there as a non-trad after a stint in the Air Force, and was really shocked at how self-absorbed, and frankly, not too bright, the traditional students were.
Also, there is a “pregnancy support center” (read: abortion referral service) directly across the street from the field of crosses, not even 50 feet away.