The man-made disaster in Myanmar
A monstrous cyclone in Myanmar has been followed by monstrous inhumanity by the country’s military dictatorship. The UN announced this morning that it was suspending food aid after the junta seized humanitarian shipments. This comes after the regime refused to issue visas to international aid workers:
A U.N. official says the World Food Program is suspending cyclone aid to Myanmar because its government seized supplies flown into the country.
He says the WFP has no choice but to suspend the shipments until the matter is resolved.
WFP spokesman Paul Risley said Friday that all “the food aid and equipment that we managed to get in has been confiscated.” The shipment included 38 tons of high-energy biscuits.
Reuters has more:
The two shipments, 38 tonnes of high-energy biscuits, were enough to feed 95,000 people — a tiny fraction of the estimated 1.5 million destitute survivors of Cyclone Nargis, which ripped into the southeast Asian nation six days ago.
“It should be on trucks headed to the victims. You’ve seen the conditions they are in. That food is now sitting on a tarmac doing no good,” Banbury said.
Despite the desperate needs of the survivors, the generals are adamant that only they will distribute the emergency aid that is going in after the worst cyclone to hit Asia since 1991, when 143,000 people were killed in Bangladesh.
The Dallas Morning News editorializes on the man-maded crisis:
The humanitarian crisis is almost certain to become a political crisis. Last September, Myanmar’s generals faced the biggest threat to their rule in 20 years when fuel price increases sparked mass protests that were crushed by soldiers. You can’t eat gas, but if you’re Burmese, you have to eat rice. And the cyclone may have wrecked the country’s rice-growing region during harvest time.
With the region already facing a rice shortage, how will Myanmar’s people feed themselves?
The United States has joined other governments and independent relief agencies from around the world in standing ready to help – but short of an act of war, it cannot intervene. Myanmar’s generals now join the ranks of history’s great tyrants – despots like Stalin, Mao, North Korea’s Kim dynasty – who were willing to allow the masses die of hunger and disease rather than yield the least bit of control.
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I will keep the survivors in my prayers. May God help them.
Yeah. But that’s nothing compared to hellish nightmare of living eight years under Boooooosh.
/sarc
It seems to be the tyrant’s preferred method of population control
How very brave of the UN! Whenever danger reared it’s ugly head, the blue-heads turned and bravely fled. It’s not food the folks in Burma need…
How do these people sleep at night knowing they are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people?
“Of course, this is not nearly as bad as the way in which Israel denies fuel and food to the poor oppressed citizens of Gaza!”
/tin foil hat off/
I am just waiting for the first liberal to blame President Bush. What for? Not acting unilaterally, and I suspect that it will be John Kerry who levels the charge.
It should be announced by the U.N. to the world that this is a true “crimes against humanity” event. Then, it should be announced criminal charges are being filed in the Hague and rattle a few sabers for good measure.
Unfortunately, the U.N. is nothing more than a paper tiger that couldn’t wipe it’s own nose without getting bogged down in “debate”.
I know, this would be a futile attempt.
Meanwhile the world watches helplessly while millions die. Again!
If Myanmar is not accepting money and aid then WHY is Google trying to collect money for the victims and where is that Google money being held?
jungatheart said:
There’s a woman from Burma in my office who told me the answer to that question; they could care less.
UN = they could care less is an understatement.
Praying.
What would the Myanmar despots do if the US violated their airspace and dropped containers of food aid to the desperate people (and weapons to defend themselves from the thugs who protect the men who would prefer them to starve than be helped?) Bet that would get the UN’s knickers in a twist!
Burma, not Myanmar. The United States does not recognize the military junta-government as legitimate.
This is one outcome of the spineless response to the war in Iraq. These dictators should FEAR U.S. We should stand for freedom and against tyrany where ever it exists, and when the oportunity to support a nation in throwing off the chains we should support them. We should help these people and let the generals interfear at their own peril.
We have forgotten where we come from and why this country was founded. We are backsliding tward the moral spinelessness of Europe.
On May 9th, 2008 at 9:11 am, spudmomof6 said:
To quote the internet: “Doo eeeet!”
many mistakes in my last post.
anger…….clouding…….brain
RE #6:
You don’t have to wait. A few of my Leftist coworkers were talking about this yesterday, and they were excusing the fact that this junta wasn’t letting us in because they “hated us” and of course had every reason to because of all we “do” around the world.
Yes, all we do…like mobilize massive amounts of food and other aid to hand out to the world’s citizens, even in those under the iron fist of the most despicable dictatorships.
#13: you’re awfully generous with my money.
Let them starve. It may be a hard thing to say but it might actualy cause the downfall of the military dictatorship there. Those who are thinking about military action to get food to the people there, forget it. Its not that we couldn’t do it, its that it is simply not worth itfor this nation. Everytime we try to help others we get slaped down and I am sick of it. If the world wants us to keep to ourselves, this is the price. Let them starve. Let the other nations who live off our largess do something for a change.
That is so ridiculously cheesy.
Instead of being an armchair general, in command of your own army in your mind, why not reach into your pocket and donate some money to some of the charities that are trying to operate in the area.
I think the USA should just air drop the food throughout Burma at this point…
Stay classy….
I dont think anyone over there would complain about their HUD trailer.
Since they don’t want our help (only our money), then our aid resources are best spent elsewhere. If this dictatorship wants to starve its citizens, then good luck with the loyalty factor.
We’ll take our toys and go somewhere else to play.
Far be it from me to be critical (stop laughing!), but a simple “Thank you” from a grateful nation whenever we provide help would be nice. Last time we were in that region providing assistance, a high-brow UN Official called us “stingy.”
No good deed…
You are ALL missing the cause for this disaster. GLOBAL WARMING!!! I mean what else can explain a cyclone in Southeast Asia. Come on guys, if you would just bicycle to work this would not have happened.
SAUSAGE, its darwinism at its best. I am sick of bailing out 3rd world cess pools and then being attacked for it. Let someone else be thw whiping boy for the worlds collective guilt.
I am so glad our military is the only fully functional part of our government despite being under funded, forced to use draconian regulations, and endure the constant interference from our elected officials or political appointees. When you look at the military junta that runs Burma (which appears to be only good at shooting unarmed civilians) vs. our troops that are able to accomplish any mission given them especially a humanitarian aid mission (just think how bad New Orleans would have been had Blanco not finally let the President send in the troops) the junta leaders should just let our guys handle this while they sit back and learn how its done. Otherwise even their guns, armored vehicles, or aircraft are not going to be able to fight off a desperate population that face dying from disease and hunger or at the point of a bayonet.
I’m (gasp) with snausage here. sonofdy, your posts are cruel and pale.
Cheesy? Do you think we should just sit back while another North Korea is created? Do we stand for something or not?
The earlier we can take out these butchers who live off the misery of their own people, the better off the world will be. Whether you like it or not, when the mess gets big enough, when enough people have been starved and murdered, you know who will have to take care of it any way.
Naw, it can’t be that bad because the UN is taking care of it. We all know they are gods among men and can do no evil and do no wrong.
On the other hand, if we can provide billions of dollars of relief and aid to Mexico with no strings attached and no accountability, what would make this current scenario any different?
I don’t get it? Government is good and citizens are bad right?
#27:
You are going off the deep end. Comparing the situation in Burma to North Korea?
Do we stand for something or not? I sure hope so, but it sure isn’t what you think it is.
Perhaps it’s because I’ve watched “Blackhawk Down” recently, but my thoughts are to keep our military out of this particular third world crisis.
Given what I believe to be largely misguided negativity towards the USA permeating in the world today, perhaps the best course of action is no action - a message to the world that it has lost the privilege of our formidable military and vast resources. Let the PRC airlift food into the jungle.
ajmontana, The military leaders have given us 2 choices, stay out or use military force to feed the people. Life is cruel. Can you see any other options? Simply droping food will not work because they have radar and the military will get there first.
Or…drop the supplies and food and watch them seized shortly after. We cannot - nor should we - solve everyone’s problems. Leave the humanitarian efforts to the humanitarian agencies.
I am with you too! I think the UN should grow a set and air drop as well.
Air drop and tell the officials to go pack sand - we are going to help YOUR people.
We need to sit down with the military junta. Flying into their airspace would be an act of war. War solves nothing! If we just sit down and discuss, we can no doubt bring them around to our way of thinking. We need to use diplomacy - they just don’t understand our desire to help.
::sarc off::
Shameful on the part of the leaders there. But if they’re going to refuse our help, then I would submit we have plenty of issues with hunger, homelessness, and other factors which could use some addressing here at home.
BayStateRepublican,
You had me on the ropes there for a minute… whew!
I just cant agree with this one. Even IF you could make this happen, how many people do you know eat a good meal at the business end of an M16?
You can’t FORCE this on them. It’s opening a can of worms that you simply can’t close.
Either they’ll accept the aid, or they wont. But trying to do so by force is certain to not solve anything.
To the air drop idea supporters, There is this magic device called radar, it means that if we air drop, the military will know exactly where and when. They will send troops and take the food.
I am all for helping people, but in this case we would have to fight a war to do so. Given the worlds “support” of our military action in the world in the last 30 years it is simply NOT worth it to us. Let the chinesse soak up a few rounds if it comes to that.
Evil…on parade.
ABSTRACTMIND, exactly, which is why I say, let them starve. That is what doing nothing means. The burmesse government will have to come to us from here on out.
They have no heart.
Did you not read the reports, sausage? Aid - monetary or otherwise - and aid workers are not being allowed into the country. Aid that has gotten through has been siezed by the junta. I want my money to go to someone who needs it - not some evil dictator.
Swift international action needs to be leveled against the government in Burma. People who are starved to death cannot overthrown a despotic government.
Has anyone thought this could be additional retaliation for the uprising a few months ago?
EQ,
Rush Limbaugh actually said you might find interesting as well. Was glad he said it.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050608/content/01125109.guest.html
To quote from it:
The U.N. never met a dictatorship it didn’t like. Wouldn’t want to “offend” Chavez, Castro, the Iranian mullahs, the ChiComs, or umpteen other despotic leaders and governments around the globe, by imposing aid to help the innocent victims in a country controlled by a running dog military junta!
If Burma was sitting on the world’s third largest reserve of oil, would our talk of “regime change” to remove despotic leadership be seen as less than altruistic? Just asking.
I have an idea, Air drop supplies to them, half food, half ak-47’s and ammo so the people can actualy keep the food. How is that for a compromise?
your compromise, by your own account, would be helping the troops get more weapons. we’ll have to find another way
From the AP: “Former President, and all-around good guy (he builds houses, you know), Jimmy Carter (D-Hamas) announced this morning that he was flying to Myanmar to plead with the country’s leadership to allow much-needed aid into their devastated country after a cyclone (caused by Mr. Bush, who refused to sign the Kyoto Treaty) ravaged the countryside. Said President (I mean former President) Carter, “We have to sit down, talk to them, and understand their side. Obama 2008, baby!” Michelle Obama chimed in from the campaign trail today, her wonderful smile and engaging personality giving comfort to the suffering masses. At a campaign stop, she said, “What do they have to complain about? Starvation and disease have nothing on what what Barack and I have gone through during this campaign.”
We could talk to them through the un, that would take months of course ending with massive starvation…..
For those that say this is Darwinism in action might want to actually read Darwin. It has nothing to do with this situation. The philosophy you are looking for is “Social Darwinism.” A good book to learn about that theory would be “Mein Kampf”
Have a nice day
How is this different from Iraq, Darfur or North Korea?
In Iraq we took unilateral action to save the people from their evil dictator government and we’ve been condemned for it, in Darfur, we let the U.N. handle it and we are condemned for it. In North Korea we negotiate with a despot government, the government takes the money and the people starve any way.
I’m with sonofdy, let someone else deal with it. We are going to get the blame anyway, so we might as well not spend any money on the effort this time.
And the goracle has already said it’s because of global warming, so it’s our fault they cyclone hit burma anyway.
You hit the nail on the head!! That’s what they’re afraid of.
Air drop food in and let the military try and take it from starving people. You would be surprised how people will fight to stay alive. The military can’t be everywhere at once. The military want to parade itself as doing the aid. Air drop and the people will get some of the aid. They will not start a war with the UN. The USA dropping aid will not harm its image. AIR DROP and give the people a chance. Screw the military – lives are at stake. As for RADAR, that is a simple solution. Flood the sky with decoys as well. Spread the military thin. Just get the aid there – NOW.
I would disagree, the whole concept of darwinism is that the strongest survive. In burma, only those who can beg steal or kill enough to eat are going to survive. This is classic darwinism. Social darwinism is on a high level such as a villiage or national level, though hitler was talking about races. It has been brought to the level of darwinism because of the actions of burmas military. After all of this theory and flowery language is done, the simple fact is burmesse are going to die by the thousands and there is not a damn thing we can do about it.
On-my-soap-box, If only it were that simple.
Disaster is a way to advance your control over people. All dictators do that.
Hey wait, didn’t Al Gore just do that as well?
Air drop guns and ammo, it’s the best solution for the depressed people’s plight.
Actually we have a couple of pieces of ordinance at the military’s disposal that have been developed to deal with any adversary stupid enough to activate a radar system while our Air Forces operate in their airspace. It would be very easy for our forces to operate C-130 and C-17 airdrops from Diego Garcia protected by carrier based FA-18s refueled by a KC-10. But what do I know? I was only a mission planner for the tanker support for the F-117s that launched during Operation Just Cause.
#55:
It’s also a great way of arming the junta. Terrible idea.
Changer1701
Where did you see that at??? I would love to read it.. I am not questioning the validity of it, it’s just I want to soak up what a ruthless women she is. And If she did say that on record then John “I can’t answer a question about illegals” Mcinsane can use this all day long. If she say’s this than what will she say at the next hurricane in the USA. I guess we need to pay the school loans back for her and ossama.
When the people become REALLY hungry then we will see what will happen. Hopefully they will overthrow the ass’s
“Stupid enough to activate a radar system while OUR Air Force operates in THEIR airspace.”
Boomer, That would be military action. We would be widely attacked in the world for it. Code pinkos would go nuts. Its not worth it.
So Khan I guess we just don’t try because the bad guys can get ome gun’s. So we leave them to die of starvation.
I would prefer to get a gun ,fight and take a few with me instead of starving to death..
Why not?? Since you gonna die either way..
Folks may not like this, but…
As much as i try to live by the idea that you should help people when you’re able to do so (a biblical statement, actually)…
but this is one time, sadly, where we’re not in a position to do so. If talks work, fine. But this is a tough situation. As much as I wouldnt want to walk away from people in need…alternatives (at present) are on short supply.
To clarify, I have no problem with going in and taking out burmas dictators, just like I have no problem going into dafur, I simply think the world would attack us for it and its no longer worth our time or effort to do so. I am sick of every good thing we do being attacked and turned into something bad so if the world wants us to stop interfering, fine. That means they lose the hand outs as well. Let them starve. As for the dying, get used to it because if uncle sugar stops being a world power and retrenches, the death toll is going to be huge.
From what I read, the generals are welcoming the relief materials, but not the relief workers. Obviously they don’t want the world to interact with their subjects. That’s annoying.
Still, they are willing to accept the relief materials. Can we send the food, water and tents without sending a small army of personnel? What good are the high energy biscuts to the dictators unless they deliver them to the people in need?
I am in favor of isolating the country’s government, but not to the point that people starve.
We could drop food and supplies into the area. We’ve done it before.
Bill Mack. Just like numerous other cases, when the military gets this stuff, they give it to the troops first, THEN to only thier hand picked loyal subjects. Either that or the governement sells it to the highest bidder.
#61:
Leave the humanitarian efforts to the humanitarian agencies, not the U.S. military and not at the expense of the American taxpayers.
Darwin Akbar, any relation to Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar (answer not required). Since when is Israel responsible for the fuel and food for the citizens of Gaza. The hundreds of millions/7 bn+ in aid from America and EU going to the same is usurped by Hamas/Fetah and so call Palestinian government (not counting the 200 million from Israel..now that’s a lot of briskets). But then the truth is a not commonly available in the Arab world.
Imagine someone says, “America, France does not like you. Germany, Italy, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and Venezuela do not like you or the things you do around the world.” Now imagine what your response would be.
Mine would be, “I don’t really give a damn what you think. All of you can sit back and watch as we do the right thing.”
There are so many ways that our government pisses money away that make me angry, yet trying to deliver food to starving people in a crappy country doesn’t bother me. Call me crazy.
After watching this crap for 60 years I am no longer convinced that forcing assistance, food, whatever on folks is worth it, actually I think it hurts, they need to resolve their own problems and we don’t need to be involved.
Most aid to Africa winds up in Swiss bank accounts, the warlords friends and thugs and hurts local farmers.
Harris, how many american servicemen are you willing to have die to feed them?
The nutcase in charge will try to resist us aid because it will come in on c130’s and c17’s. No. I am done with bailing out 3rd world cess pits without getting anything in return.
Six days and counting. The deaths from the actions of the rulers of Burma is going to make the cyclone devastion look mild.
The estimated 1.5 million people in need of immediate aid are in dire straits. Right now, even if the 38 tons of aid currently in country is distributed, that is only enough to feed less than 10% of those who need it. With the devastation from the cyclone, there is basically no food and no potable water for drinking. And it is a certainty that Burma has no medical infrastructure or stores to cope with a disaster of this magnitude. Even if aid shipments are resumed, it will take at least 48 hours to get them flowing in again. We are at six days already. That would be 8 days from the cyclone, and by that time dehydration and starvation will have already taken a toll. In addition, those who were injured and who required basic medical care are now dying of their injuries and will perish at an ever-increasing rate.
A week after the disaster, disease now has a solid foothold in the country. As more time passes, the mortality rate form disease will begin to quickly eclipse the mortality rate from the cyclone itself.
Anything the US does unilaterally will be roundly condemned. And unfortunately, actions like food drops will only lead to a military confrontation and loss of American lives.
This is an opportunity for the UN to show that it is not a useless trade union for the third world. An opportunity to reclaim its intended role in the world theater. Their interim solution? To halt shipments of aid. The UN is passing a sentence of death on over 1 million people. Yet they will do nothing. Better to debate the $1.5 billion renovation of their New York Headquarters than become embroiled in some messy situation half a world away.
Six days and counting. It is almost to the point that any action from this point forward will be too little and much, much, too late.
Some little twit writing for the Asia Times suggests the USA could recover their “tarnished reputation” by taking the country over by force (with UN approval), removing the government and distributing food and aid.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JE10Ae01.html
This is actually a brilliant example of the leftist mind in action. It’s perfectly acceptable to overthrow a government when a natural disaster strikes… but if there is no cyclone or earthquakes, etc… we should sit back and keep our mouths shut when that same government tortures, imprisons and murders its citizens.
Send in Jimmy Carter, He’ll straighten them out.
Would you pass someone on the street with a flat tire because you would get nothing in return? If someone was being beaten and you could stop it would you walk away? I mean, you may not get anything in return. You need to think about the real issue right now. Each one of those 100,000+ people had names. They all had families. All the ones that will die are people, just like you and me.
I am glad I was blessed enough to be born in the greatest country in the history of this planet, instead of some hell-hole where getting enough to eat represents the fulfillment of hopes and dreams.
The cost of helping these people would be a drop in the bucket compared to the pork-barreling and waste our government uses our money for. I would rather it go to keeping people alive than to build some bridge in Alaska or finance some outrageous art exhibit.
I wish their $#!++Y government had what it takes to provide for its own people, but the reality of thee situation is that it does not. What’s money compared to hundreds of thousands of living people?
Why do I know that the Goreacle will count all the victims of this thugocracy’s starvation plan as being victims of the ManBearPig-enhanced cyclone and demand that we* revert to an agrarian communistic society in order to save the planet?
* We = Us, not him and his elite fascist pals.
Why haven’t we heard from George Clooney and the kids about this mess?
That would probably be completely ineffective but at least it would make you feel better about yourself, right?
Now that, my friends, is a hallmark of leftism. The results of any particular action don’t matter nearly as much as the way that action makes us feeeeeeeeeel.
Harris, what do we get out of it? We have never gotten anything out of it but scorn and hate. It is not worth it to us any more unless we get something positive out of it. Would you continue to stop for people with flat tires if they made you pay for the tire, stole your wallet, then insulted you for it afterward? No.
Great. That’s the justification that’s been used by every democrat in this country in the last 100 years to take money by force from one citizen and give that money away to someone else.
Natural disasters don’t somehow make it moral.
Feel Good Actions Bails Them Out Of Learning To Fish
When that tsunami hit that area a few years ago, the international media “suggested” that it was the U.S.’s “responsibility” to set up an expensive tsunami wave warning system - and I haven’t heard of anyone else chjipping in. With every natural disaster, the onus is always on the U.S. to deliver aid as a given and obligation, without any stipulation on the governments concerned to get their act together to see they’re far better prepared for the next event. We’ve seen from New Orleans what happens if you feed someone fish without teaching them how to fish. I hope these governments get the heckling from their response to this natural disaster that Bush got over Katrina (minus accusations of blowing up dikes and weather-control helicopters to punish hard-core Dem city).
James Greenidge
Queens NY
The ones we help aren’t the ones who are doing us wrong.
Harris, that is such a flawed analogy it isn’t funny. Helping someone with a flat tire is on you; it is your decision to spend your time and/or money on someone else. Aid to another country using the United States military and taxpayer dollars requires the time and resources of OTHERS.
As I said to someone above, you sure are awfully generous with my money.
Can we retire “elitist” as a dirty word? Please? It’s just another class-warfare tool.
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Elitism-William-Henry/dp/0385479433/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196728444&sr=8-1
Harris, Are you willing to support a full invasion of Burma with years of occupation duty for the us army with no international help? Because at this point, thats what it would take. NOT WORTH IT. 100,000 plus will die. There is no stoping that now. Sorry to sound heartless but this is the reality of the situation. What do we get out of it?
No, i wouldnt. and i’ve assisted people in both of those scenarios.
Decent human beings do that.
At the same time, if i was going to help a woman change a tire, and her friend was standing there trying to hit me with a tire iron, i might want to let it go. When someone actively prevents you from helping them, what else do you do? Would you take the tire iron away, bludgeon them senseless, and THEN change the tire?
I just dont think this is a situation that we need to get involved in at this point. Yes, its sad. Yes, we should help. But I don’t believe charging in and giving the old “the calavary has arrived” shout is going to work here.
And since their government is that tight fisted and corrupt, you realize that anything people do the government doesnt like, they’re going to take it out on these poor people who have lost enough as it is.
I didn’t say invade and occupy. I want to drop supplies in. Maybe the junta’s forces trying to pry food and water from the peoples’ hands will trigger a revolution.
We?
There is nothing stopping you from liquidating your possessions and sending that money to Burma. How about it? Are you willing to give until it hurts?
Has anyone noticed that China borders this cesspool of a government? Why aren’t they leading the charge with economic relief?
Why don’t they pour one million troops across the Burmese border (like they did in 1950 Korea) and clean up this humanitarian crisis themselves?
In case you have not heard - and by this post I am guessing you have not, the humanitarians are not alowed in either.
Air drop, jamb RADAR, tell the military to go pack sand. Feed the people and worry about theie military declairing war on us later - like that should worry us.
There no doubt that this is a tragic loss of life, unlike what passes for “tragedy” or “crisis” on a slow news day on CNN. We have the resources and ability to help if allowed to, and we should.
The question in my mind is where do we draw the line? No matter our response, the MSM news anchors will say, “however, critics claim more could be done”.
Of course more could be done. But is it a Federal role to be ATM to the third world?
The new media is being used as a tool by one-worlders to drain our treasury every time images of some “crisis” are available, appealing to our righteous instincts to help. Something must be done? Not always.
Sanddog,
It may be difficult to comprehend, but often the individual posts added on a thread run in a theme, and one post may correspond with another made several minutes, hours, or even days previously.
For instance, I said this as part of a comment at 11:26 AM:
“The cost of helping these people would be a drop in the bucket compared to the pork-barreling and waste our government uses our money for. I would rather it go to keeping people alive than to build some bridge in Alaska or finance some outrageous art exhibit.”
This means that, since I already have to pay taxes like many people on this site, that I would rather it go to saving people than other, more wasteful, uses.
I wish the people of Bhurma or Myanmar, or whatever it is could enjoy the liberty that I do. Sadly, they can’t even enjoy ‘high-energy biscuits’ right now.
Sanddog #78,
Some folks from the conservative side are suggesting the same thing as sausage.
This isn’t about the US or the UN “growing a pair”. This is about the tyranny of the Myanmar “government”.
Because a cyclone has hit this impoverished nation, NOW we’re supposed to provide aid?
If the people of Burma mattered to the United States, then we would have done something about their suffering long before the weather got to them.
Reacting to this human tragedy feels knee-jerk, emotional, not true to our principles. The tragedy in Myanmar has been ongoing for decades, we just haven’t been paying attention.
And, if we choose to render aid to the people of Myanmar (assuming that the idiots in charge of that country would ever be willing to accept it), then we have begun the trek down a slippery slope of providing aid wherever it is needed.
If it is ok for the starving in Myanmar, then why not for the starving everywhere, including the USA? (Surely, not all poverty is due to laziness or personally controllable circumstances.)
Myanmar is a complete affront to western modern sensibilities. But they leave us alone, right? They aren’t a threat.
So, given that, do we act? Should we act? The answers to these questions shouldn’t be subject to the recent weather conditions.
I’m not hearless, however. I believe the suggestion to send my own money to relief organizations is a sound one. But for this situation, the US has no business airlifting anything.
#90:
yes, i have heard. that doesn’t change my beliefs. why should it? leave the humanitarian efforts to the humanitarian agencies. it’s a very simple concept. whether they are welcomed or not is beside the point.
Feed the people…the people who aren’t our citizens and do it with our citizens’ money. No.
heartless, even…sheesh
It’s obviously difficult for you to comprehend that taking money by force from one person and giving it to another isn’t any less heinous just because YOU approve of it.
You should question its validity…I made it up. A feeble attempt at sarcasm, I know. But, I think its plausible we’ll see a real AP piece like that soon.
Paying attention New Orleans? THIS is a government not caring about its citizens.
Thanks, Hank Reardon. Once again, I have not advocated taking more money in higher taxes. I said it would be better to use our money on people instead of porkbarrel spending and other wasteful uses.
IT WOULD BE BETTER TO SPEND OUR TAX MONEY ON KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE THAN TO SPEND IT ON BRIDGES TO NOWHERE IN ALASKA OR ON OUTRAGEOUS WORKS OF SO-CALLED ART.
Of course they are. It makes them feel better to say….see, we helped. See, we’re good.
Americans are the most generous people on the face of the earth. While the government of Germany pats itself on the back for coughing up 3.1 million in aid, private charity in the USA can easily collect 10 times that much. We don’t need to use taxpayer money for stuff like this either within our country or elsewhere in the world. Private charity is more that capable of fulfilling that traditional role…with less fraud, waste and abuse.
It would be better to return it to the taxpayers and let them decide how to use their own money.
OK, we both left that part out.
For the third time, you sure are very generous with other people’s money.
Darwinism is the survival of the fittest, survival of the strongest is “Social Darwinism.
This type of stuff has been going on in Africa forever. It’s terrible.
I am in favor of dropping goods by air, but in no way do I think it’s a good idea to get involved in some type of military conflict.
It’s not our job to go around the world taking on dictators and liberating people. Eventually, hopefully the people there will rise up and overthrow the regime. Things got turned around in South Africa when the oppressed starting getting violent, and setting people on fire with tires in conjunction with political pressure from outside nations.
The military leaders there are diabolical monsters, and I have respect for and hope the best for whatever counter groups looking to solve the situation.
I’m just happy I live in America, where we don’t have to deal with this type of evil.
khan,
You sure are assumptive that you are the only one who pays taxes here.
I guess I need to clarify. I don’t like giving the government much of my money at all because, in my opinion, they piss it away on stupid crap that doesn’t matter. I was trying to say that if the government has OUR money anyway, I would rather them spend it on saving people than spend it on earmarks or waste. I totally agree with taking less from us in the first place or giving it back, but given the choice between feeding starving people and paying for ‘Piss Christ’, I would rather feed people.
That is where I am coming from.
All I can say is if I were Burmese, I would be thinking now’s a pretty good time to overthrow the government.
Otherwise, what will the U.N. do besides issue another condemnation against Israel?
Harris,
I’ve never implied nor assumed that I’m the only one here who pays taxes. I’m just not going to lay claim to another’s money based on my personal belief system or tugged heartstrings.
I see no difference between paying for Piss Christ and spending money on another country’s citizens in a massive relief aid “to save people”. If people want to donate, let them, but do not forcefully take other people’s money to do so.
Harris #99, I get what you’re saying.
Can I pick at your arguments for a second, though?
Just a couple of things:
1) Comparing “keeping people alive” to “bridges to nowhere in Alaska” and “outrageous works of so-called art” seems pretty obvious. And, if those were really the choices, then they would be no-brainers. But, we know appropriations aren’t so simple and that makes this comparison a bit specious.
Wouldn’t we want to avoid spending on “bridges to nowhere” and “outrageous works of…art” altogether? Shouldn’t that be a given right out of the gate?
Plus, if there were extra discretionary funds available after eliminating the useless and the inane, could there be other alternatives to spending rather than “keeping people alive”?
2) Implicit in the comparison you make is that tax money needs to be spent. This is the disconnect between your point and at least one of the points made against you. Perhaps, taxes should be less. Perhaps, government shouldn’t be making decisions about where in the world to provide humanitarian aid. If we’re that wealthy, couldn’t US citizens make their own decisions about where that money should go? One would hope that an enlightened concerned citizenry could invest, donate, spend their dollars according to their personal values. (We know we’re a pretty giving people.)
3) This will seem like a nit, but it is an important question, I think: what is the value of “keeping people alive”? Let me rephrase: what is the price of a human life? How much money is enough? With a bridge, we know when it is complete. Same with a so-called work of art. How do we know we’re successful at keeping people alive? Where is the boundary for this sort of spending? Where do the costs start outweighing the benefits? That proposition can get expensive. Somewhere we’ll be forced to choose: whom do we keep alive? Is it the Burmese people? The Sudanese? The Congolese? AIDS sufferers? Cancer victims?
I’m not picking on you, Harris. You just got me thinking.
And if China accuses us of using the cyclone to put troops in their backyard? Then what? Then the UN despot club get together and condemns the U.S. for exerting influence in another part of the world, the whole thing escalates and again we are th bad guys for trying to help.
When did we become the big brother/police/saviors/protectors of the world? Why is it our responsibility to take care of everyone that won’t take care of themselves?
If we drop food and sneak in a few weapons to foment revolution, how many Burmese will die in the fighting that we caused? Then when we take the flack for interfering in another countries internal affairs (again), who’s going to take the blame then?
Let the U.N. do it’s job for once, and take the blame for the result.
The REAL DEAL on Myanmar?
The Burmese people made a choice. They saw their nieghbor, Thailand, become an economic powerhouse. But at the expense of the Thai culture! There is truth to the fact that since becoming “international,” many Thai women have become prostitutes. Many Thai men and women are drug-addicted and HIV positive.
The Burmese chose isolation, at the cost of riches!
They value THEIR culture.
Myanmar has it’s own oil.
Myanmar has its own riches in gems and jewells.
But the “International Community,” or GLOBALISTS, want a piece of that action. Oil companies have lobbied for decades for access to Myanmar, usually under the guise of “DEMOCRACY!”
And the Burmese know; once you let the oil companies in, they’re NEVER LEAVING!
The Burmese have made their choice. Let’s stop being the Ugly American. Let’s RESPECT their wishes.
One of the things I often use to determine who should be helped and who should be left to twist is the type of government the people have over them. Take Cuba and Mexico, for instance. They are both crappy countries, but Mexico is a capitalistic (supposedly) democracy and Cuba is Communist. Cubans were just allowed cell phones last month, for God’s sake. Although I can’t stand illegal immigration, I don’t have as much of a problem with Cubans coming here because I would try and leave a Communist hell-hole myself. The Mexicans, however, can change their country, but they don’t.
I was trying to think, “What would it be like if the US Army took over the US government and instituted martial law. What could we do about it as citizens?” They truth of the matter is I don’t know.
My thing is, these aren’t people who voted in socialism or communism. They had their government taken from them by the military, and although there have been ‘votes’, the results have been consistently ignored by the regime. People should be held accountable for the decisions and choices they have made, but I really don’t see what chances these people have without help. I am saying we could at least help out with giving them a little to eat.
You all make it sound like this is the first time this exact scenario has happened. Newsflash, the world is full of evil dictators. Anyone care to remember when we tried airlifting supplies into Somalia only to have those with the guns take it away and hold the food hostage and murdered their own people if they tried to take any of that food? Power corrupts, and nothing short of a full scale military invasion is going to get food to the people who need it most in Burma and that is something no country is going to do.
The US and much of the free world is trying its best to get food into a country that is run by a violent dictatorship and military. It is not easy, and many thousands will die and not because we didn’t try and help. And since most of Burma’s rice and wheat were on those coastal plains wiped out by this hurricane (cyclone in the pacific) and they had not yet had a harvest yet, many hundreds of thousands more if not millions face death by starvation in the near future. Rather than sit back and argue like armchair generals on how you would run US foreign policy, get off your butt and stop complaining and do what you can to get aid to groups who have boots on the ground and are getting limited success such as the Danish Red Cross.
Again, that’s fine if you want to help. That’s what charities, foundations, non-profits, etc., are for. Knock yourself out and donate your own money.
Do these Generals have names?
Let’s let them die because:
A) It’s not our job to feed them.
B) We don’t want to suffer the wrath of world opinion.
C) The people should suffer because because of the choices their military rulers made.
For how long? And if the military government complains to the U.N. that we are interfering, and the U.N. agrees and condemns our actions (as we all know they would even if we have veto power), then what? After giving the people food, do we just cut them off and let them starve next month? Assuming that the food we drop actually gets to the people that need it instead of having it stolen by either the local government or the central government.
Let’s face it, unless the government lets us in with the blessing of the U.N. this is a hopeless situation and will result in a major loss of the Burmese population. And the libs will blame us for not taking unilateral action to overthrow the junta.
A) When did it become our job?
B) We are tired of suffering the wrath of world opinion for our good deeds.
C) The choices that their rulers are currently making are the reason help isn’t getting in.
Harris, why are you having such a difficult time understanding the difference between willingly donating (charity) and force funding (collecting taxes)? You keep trying to distill any opposing viewpoint into logical fallacies and false dichotomies instead.
Sorry sosnodfly but there is also a magic device called a “jammer”…
If you drop food, drop a few weapons too…armed responsible people get to make choices their government would rather they not make. (2nd Amendment plug)
I’m waiting for all those Tibet protestors to hit the streets and start after Myanmar. I haven’t seen them in the news lately; break-time is over, people. This junta is on shaky ground right now, and they don’t want the people to know that the relief is coming from abroad. They want the people to know it came all from the government. Like N. Korea, this junta doesn’t want their people to know how terrible conditions are in their country. Outside influence is definitely not welcome. They may be forced into some sort of action, based on the death/homeless toll. Hopefully, they will open the gates and let their people start to live again. It shows how extreme a government can be…interested in only holding power rather than the welfare of its people. Some people here are wanting to deny any relief to them. I, for one, don’t corrupt my morals simply because others do. Charity is something you give from the heart and faith; not from the political pocketbook.
I don’t think the junta can be ‘forced’ to do anything by the UN or any country unless it involves pointing a gun at them. I think that they simply do not care at all about the people. I say that because I understand that their military has done NOTHING in the way of relief action thus far? You’d think they would have done something by now if they were ever going to?
Harris said:
Huh? What ‘wrath’ did we and Aussies suffer for being the first responders to the Tsunami disaster?
Let’s air drop guns and ammo to the people who can then overthrow the junta and then let in the aid. Now would be a good time..
I’m all for providing aid to help with the recovery from natural disasters and other acts of God, but only if the aid in no way increases the longevity of corrupt governments. The problem with giving any relief to a place like Burma or North Korea is that it takes the pressure of the government. Even if you deliver the food directly to the oppressed peasants, all you have done is make it feasible for the government that used to steal 90% of their money now able to steal 99% for the same effect. Corrupt governments eventually destroy themselves when left to their own devices, either through rebellion or simply running out of people to oppress. As painful as it may be to watch this happen, any help you give to such a society simply delays the inevitable. Without aid, country X may have a famine that kills 5 million people, at which point the government collapses. With aid, that country kills 1 million people every year for 25 years at which point the aid ends and that famine you postponed finally occurs.
The only way, other than cutting them off entirely, to deal with a corrupt state, is military action. It is the most humane option, insofar as you may only have to kill a few hundred thousand people. But a populous that has been oppressed for any amount of time would be incapable of self government immediately following the resolution of the regime change action. This type of solution would require the political will to impose a non-democratic government run by the occupying power on the state in question long enough for effective political machinery to develop and for normalcy to return to such a degree that the people can make rational decisions.
Sadly, the popular opinion seems to be against anything but continual subsidies to failing governments, and in the few cases that regime change is tolerable, the only acceptable plan of action is immediate democracy. Basically it’s foreign policy that feels good but only really serves to increase suffering.
this is code pink’s utopia right here, folks. they want the UN to solve all the world’s problems and deal with dictators? this is what happens. what we see in myanmar today is what the world would be like without the united states. and i wish the liberals in this country would see it.
Sorry, Dances. What I meant was that the junta may be “forced” by itself, into some sort of action, not by the U.N, in order to maintain power. I see on Foxnew.com that the junta has seized the U.N. shipments already. They say they want to distribute it themselves. They either plan on giving it to the people as something they themselves have done (not the U.N.) or hold it all for themselves for profit and power. I imagine that they want to use the relief shipments as hostage to attain something they want. Time to pull the plug, U.N.. All you are doing is feeding into a very tyrannical government bent on themselves, not the people. That isn’t charity.
You got me Changer
But I sure was hoping….
Khan I didn’t specify who gave them guns.. Just let them do what they have to to survive. I would appreciate a weapon from anyone if it meant saving myself and country
Good point An-artist. This situation is the poster-child of what happens when imbeciles like code-pink get their way.
We never gave code-pink a fair chance to prove how they would have solved the problem with Saddam but here is a golden opportunity for them to show us the ‘right way’ to deal with thug dictators and save ~50 thousand lives.
Where are you hiding code pinkers? How come you aren’t in the news trying to go to Burma to negotiate with the thugs to allow us in to prevent the deaths from starvation and disease that are CERTAIN to happen without any outside help?
Let’s start a collection drive to: SEND CODE PINK TO BURMA!
I’m seeing on the news that they are going to let the UN get supplies in there, just as an update.
feeler said:
WHAT?! You think the Burmese people had ANYTHING to do with ruling junta being in power? Nothing could be further from the truth. Take your head out of the sand; what part of “MILITARY COUP” is it that you do not understand? Next you’ll tell how much the North Koreans appreciate their ‘cultural isolation’ while they eat tree bark and coal.
since this is on topic, i thougth it might be worth a post.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354677,00.html
title of the article:
A Gulf in Giving: Oil-Rich States Starve the World Food Program
And a quote, to put the generous nature of America in perspective:
Donor listings on WFP’s website show that this year, as in every year since 1999, the U.S. is far and away the biggest aid provider to WFP. Since 2001, U.S. donations to the food agency have averaged more than $1.16 billion annually — or more than five times as much as the next biggest donor, the European Commission.
We give FIVE TIMES as much as anyone else.
Take the story, and that knowledge, in any way you like
Democracy is not the solution to preventing suffering. Capitalism, that is, free enterprise and free markets are the solutions.
Democracy, especially in a place as diverse as Myanmar, shifts the tyrannical behavior away from a military junta to a majority. And having a democratic form of government doesn’t mean the economy will be free.
Majorities…er…democracies can be just as tyrannical and stupid as a military dictatorship, only in the former, the population feels good about it because they’re doing it to themselves (unless you’re in the minority, of course.)
The problem in Myanmar and every other backwater dictatorship around the world is that the people aren’t free to act economically. The power to vote just doesn’t matter all that much if you’re free to create, accumulate, and spend wealth. Myanmar should be an economic powerhouse, but the political idiots in charge are too worried about keeping their offices.
Maybe a democracy would change that, but it isn’t a prerequisite. It could be argued that democracy is actually preventing economic freedom and prosperity in progressive-leaning (socialist) democracies.
Once people believe that government is a creator of wealth (versus a confiscator of wealth,) there is no end to the spending on ourselves. That will spell the failure of some democracies within our lifetimes.
US foreign policy should be about pushing economic freedom around the world. Democracy is overrated.
Myanmar has political problems, obviously, but restoring their democracy is neither necessary or sufficient to cure them. (Though, admittedly, it wouldn’t hurt.)
Just as I thought, what relief has gotten into that country is being distributed as propaganda by the generals. It shows the sorry state of affairs that junta has become. If the U.N. is worth anything (which is doubtful) international pressure needs to be placed on them. Something has to be done other than accepting their terms and thousands starve and die. Maybe the people will revolt in order to eat and live.
Now we have more relief going in and oddly enough, with very little (or no) capacity to transport it to the affected regions, the government is still refusing aid workers permission to go in.
Gee, I wonder why?
Seems like maybe prayers are the best thing we can give those people right now.