Should state gun laws apply to national parks?
Well, the LA Times said this weekend that the NRA was past its prime and losing its clout. But like most of America, CNN wasn’t reading the LA Times. Here’s their article, and here’s their video report on proposed Department of the Interior regulations changes.
The rules would allow state laws to set control policy for national parks…so if you can legally carry a gun on state parkland, you can pack it into national parkland in that state as well. But this might be confusing in places like Great Falls National park, as the CNN reporter points out, where half the park is in Virginia (with permissive gun laws) and half in Maryland (which, as one prominent conservative commentator told me recently, treats gun owners like pedophiles).
To illustrate that jurisdictional point in the video, CNN reporter Jill Dougherty gestures across the raging rapids of the Potomac river which divides the states.
So, you know, just don’t fall in the river and you won’t be in Maryland. I think this legal chaos might be somewhat less daunting than opponents of the rule change are letting on.
Also of interest to the gun-grabbers is the current safety of national parks, which they say is just fine like it is:
Finnerty knows the National Park Service statistics by heart. The latest data, from 2006, shows 272,623,980 people visited the parks that year. There were 11 cases of homicide or manslaughter, 61 robberies and 35 rapes or attempted rapes.
“Now, could something happen? Of course it could happen, but the chances are extremely, extremely remote,” she says.
Finnerty is a member of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, which includes a number of former directors. The group is actively lobbying against the change, insisting the current regulations are working.
I don’t think national parks are as safe as they used to be, and here’s one reason why. Here’s more:
According to NPCA’s 2005 report, Faded Glory: Top 10 Reasons to Reinvest in America’s National Park Heritage, the Park Service confronts increasing problems with illegal drug cultivation and/or trafficking at Sequoia National Park and Whiskeytown National Recreation Area in California; Organ Pipe Cactus and Coronado national monuments in Arizona; and Amistad National Recreation Area and Padre Island National Seashore in Texas, among other park sites nationwide. Illegal marijuana cultivation within Sequoia National Park, for instance, has increased drastically since September 11 when Mexican drug cartels relocated operations onto public lands because of tightened security along U.S. borders. This has serious consequences on the safety of park staff and visitors, the experiences of visitors, and the park’s already-tight budget.
If you’re interested in this story, the Interior Department’s regulations are open to “public comment” through the end of June and their decision will reflect the amount and quality of mail they receive. You can add your own comment on the issue here.
P.S. Dougherty’s article mentions a .22-caliber Glock. Didn’t know they made those, and I’d be surprised to see someone in a gun store carrying a converted .22 for self-defense. I think she meant a Glock model 22. But as CNN “errors” on firearms stories go, that one’s pretty innocent.
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{Post by See-Dubya. Front-page photo changed, because of a tip that someone gets very litigious about posting the photo of the guy releasing the bear.}
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CNN wouldn’t know a Glock from a Glockenspiel!
And yet these same people who couldn’t tell a .22 from a .45 are the same ones trying to restrict or repeal the second amendment. Go figure.
Guns are like locks: they keep honest people honest.
I’m wondering how long it will take until people start saying we shouldn’t lock our homes or cars because it implies that our homes/cars aren’t safe, hence implying that others may be dishonest, which some may find offensive.
Give firearms a chance… in the appropriate hands, of course.
In how many places would this really be an issue? Obviously Great Falls National Park is one, but how many more instances of this “confusion” exist. How easy would it be to carve exceptions for the few instances where this might be an issue rather than prohibit it in all instances?
The statistics are also misleading/incomplete. I would like to see animal (The non-two legged kind) attacks included as well.
The right to defend your self and your family is a god given right. All States should not abrogate such and should allow a process to obtain a State recognized permit to carry in ALL PLACES. Hopefully The Supremes will take us a step in that direction.
To confuse the issue even more, not all national parks are owned by the federal gov’t. Some are long term leases from the states.
I worked in various parks in the southwest for ten years from ‘92 to ‘02, and have returned to visit many times since then. The parks are still very safe places for the most part. However, if your in the back country of some parks, it’s not unusual to run across smuglers(both dope and migrants).
My opinion; the 2nd ammendment doesn’t mention anything about where you are in the US, or who owns the land your on.
We have to worry about four legged as well as two legged predators in our part of middle of nowhere Idaho. When you head out into the sparsely populated high desert or mountains you are at risk from both. A friend of mine has a lovely family photo taken in the local mountains with a tree in the background that has a cougar lying in the tree above them looking down at the human smorgasbord. I can’t wait for our former Governor Kempthorne to approve this new policy so I can legally carry a weapon to defend myself and my family when we take in the natural beauty of our state.
For the firearms experts at CNN a .22 cal is great for going after small varmints or plinking, but it will only piss off a bear, cougar, pack of wolves or coyotes, badger, bobcat, or timber rattler (provided you can hit it). I read a story a couple of days ago about a man in eastern Oregon being attacked by a wounded brown bear his group was trying to locate on a legal hunt. His .45 cal semi-automatic handgun jammed while he was being mauled by the bear when a friend rushing to his aid shot it twice at point blank range with his .40 cal handgun finally killing the bear. Had the hunter been alone there is some doubt as to who would have survived this fight for survival.
I’ll bet the chances of something happening didn’t seem remote to the 11 homicide victims, the 61 robbery victims or the 35 rape victims.
link
Amos was camping alone in the area when police found him and had a rifle, Park County Sheriff Fred Wegener said.
Morimoto’s body was found after a 10-hour search. Morimoto was found in a shallow creek with a strap around her neck, less than 100 yards from Amos’s campsite. Her body was partially covered with tree branches. A rifle was found nearby.
Earlier that day, Morimoto radioed to Houck: “Karen, help, help, help!”
Houck told detectives she received another radio transmission from Morimoto with her screaming described as if she was in fear for her life. Then the transmission ended, according to the affidavit.
Amos has a lengthy criminal record.
Using the name Dennis Cook, Amos was convicted of second degree murder in Kansas in 1981 and sentenced to 15 years to life in prison.
He was transferred to Colorado the same year as his conviction to serve his sentence under the interstate compact, Sanguinetti said.
In 1992, while serving time at the Buena Vista Correctional Facility, Amos was investigated for attempted murder, but no formal charges were brought, she said.
He was again charged with attempted murder in 1994 while he was at the Colorado State Penitentiary in Canon City and that charge was reduced to assault, Sanguinetti said. He was sentenced to two years in prison, she said.
Amos was paroled in November 2001 and completed the parole in 2003, Sanguinetti said.
This relates to a couple issues: always be armed, because the “justice” system lets murderers live among us. This one killed a student in a National Park.
Nuts to that. I carry a Colt Combat Commander in 45 acp each and every time I hunt or camp in state and federal forest land. I just don’t wear it on my hip.
For the clueless:
.22 = their IQ
.45 = a beer
Real key question, why are there gun restrictions on Federal land considering the Second Amendment.
Will be interesting once the Supremes decide on the DC gun band…
A Glock model 22 would be a Full sized .40 Smith and Wesson (4.6″ barrel)…did I win the Beer?
BTW…i absolutely love the smokey the bear picture.
As a proud member of Obama”s “Guns & Bible” club, I do not really give a rat’s ass what the laws are. When it comes to my family’s protection, I keep my S&W 357 magnum handy.
Looks like the drive by media is trying their best to marginalize the NRA. Not going to work. I suspect that enrollment in the NRA is way up. It’s one of the few organizations that I give money to.
Correction: it is one of the few policy/political organizations that I give to.
That is a good question, since all Americans own it…
Upper east TN has one of the most dangerous sections of the Appalachian Trail. Many out of state people come to park their cars only to return finding them gutted and their belonging robbed. There have been murders and rapes along the trail in VA, TN & NC to name a few. Eliminate the vermin that prowls the trails.
abstractmind–thanks, I had to come up with something else when I found out the first picture I used was getting lawyer-happy. And I figured you guys were tired of the same picture of the Charter Arms Bulldog for every gun story.
I keep seeing reference to the issue of whether or not the Parks are safe as if that matters to whether or not someone should have the right to take the precaution to ensure their and or others safety.
Whether or not it is safe (or statistically safe,) has nothing to do with whether or not someone should be able to carry.
In Arizona hand guns are legal as long as they are in a hoster. I remember my friend being told to put his gun in his car when we entered the Grand Canyon National Park.
See-Dubya,
You weaken your argument with the Great Falls example. One waterfall with one name, but two completely separate parks.
You have to travel 15-20 miles by car to go from one park to the other (down to Key Bridge and up to the other park). (A tip: The view from the Virginia side is prettier…heh)
The only folks who head down into the water are the kayakers, as there are AMPLE “keep away from the edge, stay oout of the dangerous water – undertow!” signs.
Copied from the Interior Department’s public comment area.
Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s sub-committee.
What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he had to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: “Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.” “The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart.” “In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent.” “I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies!
Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. “I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today”: Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You’ve stripped away our heritage, You’ve outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question “Why?” You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! “Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. “Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers.
The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored.
We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!” “As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school.I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA –
I give to you a sincere challenge.
Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
I live in Oregon and if you know anything about the state you know that we have tons of city and state parks here. I can legally carry concealed in any public area except for courthouses and secure areas of airports and I can carry in any city or state park. I can be trusted to carry in allof those places but for some reason the small section of land that makes up Crater Lake National Park is off-limits. Makes no sense.
Lockstein–that’s CNN’s argument being weakened, I think. In other words, though it is Maryland, it’s not even Great Falls National Park on the other side of the river.
So the chance for “chaos” seems even more remote.
It’ll be a snow ball’s chance in hell before I visit another national park.
It’s run by fascists as far as I’m concerned.
Or I could say the people in northerm Maine don’t like New Yorkers much.
I’d say “no”, off the top of my head. National Parks (and Forests, too) are Federal reserves, and not part of any state. So state law should not apply.
I do note, however, that the 2nd amendment is a Federal constraint.
I know for a fact state driving law applies in a national park, let’s say I found out the hard way.
Again, it depends on the park you’re in. Some parks issue ‘federal tickets’ while others issue ’state tickets’ by proxy.
Either way, my copy of the 2nd ammendment doesn’t mention permission being required.
Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson has been pursuing this issue aggressively with the feds. The conservation groups want him to transfer the Christmas Mountains to the National Park Service (it adjoins the Big Bend National Park) but Patterson is refusing unless the park service allows visitors to carry firearms.
This is the comment I submitted
“Finnerty knows the National Park Service statistics by heart. The latest data, from 2006, shows 272,623,980 people visited the parks that year. There were 11 cases of homicide or manslaughter, 61 robberies and 35 rapes or attempted rapes.“Now, could something happen? Of course it could happen, but the chances are extremely, extremely remote,” she says.Finnerty is a member of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, which includes a number of former directors. The group is actively lobbying against the change, insisting the current regulations are working.”
Extremely, extremely remote! I suppose that with 272,623,980 people visiting the National Parks 11 homicides, 61 robberies and 35 rapes are acceptable numbers. May I suggest that the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees ask the victims or the victim’s families if extremely, extremely remote makes them feel better?
There will be no bloodbath if law abiding American Citizens that have concealed carry permits are allowed to carry concealed firearms within National Park boarders. After obtaining a concealed carry permit in the State of Arizona something happened to me; I became a pacifist. The responsibility of carrying a concealed firearm has made me turn away and bite my tongue the few times I have been confronted by angry people while carrying over the years. This was not always the case when I was not carrying. If at all possible, while carrying, I will always retreat. Everyone that has a concealed carry permit that I have spoken with feels the same way. There are a number of reasons for this. If anyone of us ever has to use deadly force to stop a criminal and even if the investigating law enforcement find it to be justified there is no guarantee the DA will not prosecute because of political agendas or personal biases; and even if we are not prosecuted, the criminal or criminals’ family can sue us in civil court. The primary reason though is none of us wants to take a life. People like Finnerty may picture us drunkenly waving firearms around because we want a particular camping space or something similar but this will not happen. We are law-abiding citizens and are very aware of the extreme responsibility of carrying a concealed firearm.
I am a law-abiding citizen, I have taken the prescribed training to obtain a concealed carry permit, and I have been issued a concealed carry permit by the State of Arizona as administered by the Department of Public Safety. Please don’t let Finnerty personally decide that she knows better than the State of Arizona and the Department of Public Safety and don’t let the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees dictate that I have no right to protect myself and my family while visiting our Nations beautiful National Parks.
Submitted for your thoughtful consideration.
Thank You for your service to our country.
Even more incredulous is the fact that leftist, gun-grabbing organizations such as the National Parks Conservation Association (npca.org) continue to bemoan the gross “understaffing via underfunding” of our parks, all the while claiming such understaffing is a major safety concern for visitors and rangers alike. They have articles like this one posted on their site: http://www.npca.org/what_we_do/visitor_experience/endangeredrangers/
AND then they post another article on their site demanding NO GUNS IN OUR PARKS
http://www.npca.org/keep_parks_safe/
Groups such as these must be politically defeated; not debated. The deaths of US citizens, irrespective of the body count, mean nothing to them unless those deaths advance their agenda. These groups are not just ignorant; they are downright evil in their willingness to render the innocent defenseless. Please take advantage of the Interior Dept’s open comment period and encourage them to allow concealed carry. Thanks see-dubya! You’re doing an awesome job!!!
While stationed in Arizona I visited Grand Canyon with my wife. She was very worried about a ’survivalist’ and murderer believed to be hiding in the park, so I took along my 40 cal (registered and legal in AZ). Our car developed problems, and we set up our tent where it was towed (with the permission/suggestion of the park employee who towed us). The Park Police showed up around midnight, with spotlights, flashing lights, bullhorn commands. I emerged from the tent, was asked if anyone else was in the tent – wife emerged. I was then asked if there was a weapon in the tent. I said ‘Of course”. The Park Policeman looked at me a bit bemused, asked to look at it, took down the serial number – and then informed me that it was illegal to bring firearms into the National Park. I nervously told him that I was not aware of that, and I had asked about it when we signed up for the campground. He signaled the rest of the Police to leave, smiled, and handed me my weapon.
Of course, this was years ago – I am sure now it would be a different story.
Well, If you are so impressed with statistics that lean toward “extremely extremely rare”…..How about this….In just the last 24 hours, millions and millions of guns were not pointed at any person, did not shoot any person, or did not kill any person….So let’s just leave guns out of these silly arguments and keep lawbreakers out of National Parks…
I’ve been breaking the law for years & I don’t care,better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Wait wait, 274,000,000 and change PEOPLE visited National Parks? That seems a bit bloated. Nat’l pop is what, 300M? So every US citizen under the age of 70 went to a national park last year? Perchance they mean “visits” rather than “visitors.”
Neither a paucity nor a plethora of crimes in a locality is sufficient reason to restrict the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to keep and bear arms. My, and your, right to live and defend our lives does not depend on the local (reported) crime rate.
I had to drive south from Gatlinburg recently. You have to drive through a National Park to do that. Damn right I had a gun with me. Laws against carrying in normal situations (i.e. I’m not going to argue that I have a right to carry a gun into a court house) are unconstitutional. Period. To me, the issue isn’t so much that State laws should apply, but that the Constitution should apply in all 50 states and all Federal territories. Yeah, I supported Ron Paul, but I’m guessing that most Republicans will indulge my insistence on constitutionality this time around.
Yes. The state guns laws should state all able bodied adults be familiar with the basics of gun safety, marksmanship and the Founders Intent of the Second Amendment. Copies of the Constitution and the Federalist and Anti Federalist papers should be placed and read in every school every year. The only Federal Gun Law should state the same for all territories and federal installations.