Caution: 9th Circuit Court of Appeals at work
Via the Senate Conservatives Fund comes news of a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling this week making it illegal to fire illegal alien workers who use fake Social Security numbers. Crikey:
Here’s the news from the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco:
A federal appeals court ordered reinstatement Monday for 33 janitors in Los Angeles who were fired because their Social Security numbers did not match the government’s database, a ruling that could strengthen unions’ case against a Bush administration proposal to pressure employers to get rid of suspected illegal immigrants…
But in ordering the Los Angeles janitors rehired with back pay, the court said employees can’t be fired merely because the Social Security number they submit differs from the number in the government’s files - a major issue in lawsuits over the administration’s plan…
The employees, whose union contract protected them from being fired without good cause, won reinstatement and back pay from an arbitrator, who said Aramark had no convincing information that they were illegal immigrants. A federal judge disagreed but was overruled Monday by the three-judge appellate panel.
So a company trying to do the right thing is being forced to employ illegal immigrants by labor unions and liberal judges. The labor union in this case is Service Employees International Union (SEUI), which strongly endorses both Barack Obama and amnesty.
***
Meanwhile, in Europe via VOA (too little, too late for them, but noteworthy nonetheless):
The European Parliament has approved new rules for detaining and expelling illegal immigrants, legislation that human rights groups consider unfair.
EU lawmakers voted in Strasbourg Wednesday to let governments detain illegal immigrants for up to 18 months and impose a re-entry ban of up to five years. The rules are to go into effect by 2010.
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Once again the 9th Circus of Appeasement strikes against the laws designed to protect Americans …
they probably felt comfortable thumbing their collective noses at the law figuring on appeal the SCOTUS won’t overturn them since they just ruled against the citizenry in favor of terrorists …
I guess providing false information on an application is not good cause.
That isn’t the ruling they’re happy about, it was the one after that where they stated the government couldn’t deport an illegal who volunteered to go, then changed his mind after his sham marriage was discovered.
Identity theft is not a good cause?
What a joke.
Agreed. That’s in plain English on every application for every job i’ve ever applied for…if you provide false info knowingly, then you can be terminated.
In plain English…maybe that’s the problem after????
I still have a headache from the view. The 9th circuit should apply for Al quaeda membership status. All they want to do is undermine American security, and help the enemy.
Let me pull a stunt like these illegals managed to get away with reckless abandon. I would be run out on the rails and my employment record would be tarnished forever. Illegals-100, US Citizens-0.
Welcome back to the Wild Wild West…where lawlessness rules the prairies…CRIKEY is right….This country is becoming a JOKE of epic proportions….Forget about a mexichurian candidate..we have an entire contingent of traitors in congress , in the courts and in the white house….Talk about being SCREWED!!
Place your finger between your lips, move it up and down between lips real fast and hum, this is out Government at work.
How is it that a city government can publicly disregard US immigration laws without repercussions while simultaneously calling for strict adherence to BS rulings like this one and getting what they want?
This.is.insane.
How much you want to bet that these bastards have never had to deal with the IRS when someone else is using their SS#? I know a few people here are in the same boat I am and will testify to the problems created by these issues.
I can still not understand how illegals get away with such brazen contempt for US law. If I ever used a false SS number for anything, I am pretty sure I would quickly have more legal problems than I care to imagine, and possibly facing jail. But Mexicans? No big deal!
9th Circuit is a POS, and the monkeys who work there should be deported to some Muslim country.
Jefferson warned of this happening.
We need to make these fools accountable.
Great false SS numbers get a pass..I wonder if same sex marriages will be approved by the same standards for illegals?
So SS Numbers are no longer needed? Identity theft not a problem? Try clearing your name when they open a credit card under your name and charge the hell out of it.
They most likely haven’t. They’re also most likely financially/physically insulated from what happens to towns where illegals take over. I can’t imagine any of these judges having to go home to a town that looks like a 3rd World war zone every night.
The New Tookie WIlliams
I guess this ruling is for the kids?
Nah, he hasn’t killed any innocent Americans. If he kills some innocents, his support will grow.
Do the real owners of the SS#s get notified? If so they should sue.
The SEIU is THE most corrupt union in the country. They bully and shakedown businesses all over my community, and are the loudest and most unabashed sponsors of illegal conduct of all kinds, including illegal immigration.
This ruling is the same sort of disaster we see out of the jokers at the 9th Circuit all the time.
Nothing new, unfortunately.
Every time I have ever been employed and had to fill out an employment form one of the last things I have had to do is sign my name testifying that the information I have written is true. Every employment form I have filled out says a person can be terminated for knowingly falsifying information.
We are losing our country in these kangaroo courts!!!!
I think the 9th Circuit is the bane of America as does almost everyone else here. However, the fact is that the LAW says only an Immigration Officer can determine citizenship. So the ruling on Social Security numbers determining citizenship can never hold legal water. SSN’s were never designed to be a “Citizenship” test to begin with. Again, if the governement were serious about securing the border, they would. It would take very little effort. However, it would look very bad on TV as the poor alien’s (read criminal’s) rights would appear violated. Make a law that says illegal immigrants can not keep any money they earn while in the US illegally. Until we decide that money earned by illegals is the same “fruit of the poison tree” that drug money is, we will never have a way to control these criminals.
Trust me.. Many here will argue with my point about the law but.. look it up on CIS.gov in “Inserts” under the INA.. I know what I am talking about. Happy to leave you quotes. It is the law that is lacking (and, especially, the people who write the law).. Not the legal system.
The 9th CIRCUS Court has more rulings overturned than anyother court. Hopefully, this one will, too.
However, I’m expecting Juan McAmnesty to issue a press statement in support of that ruling any time now.
The ruling appears to me to be based on a narrow technicality. O.K., fine. But, um, has anybody checked to see if any of these 33 people actually are here illegally? Being a union member and winning a court case still doesn’t mean you have a right to remain here if you ARE illegal. Something is fishy here. BTW, Aramark is a large service company and they’re now on my radar screen.
Nope. From personal experience I will tell you that the Social (in)Security department refuses to notify me when any of my personal information is used in a questionable manner. They only expect me to pay for it because I did not prevent it.
The truth hurts.
I’m tired of the illegal invaders and the fact that our political leaders represent the invaders more than Americans.
I agree with SouthPaw.. Where the he11 is ICE? Why don’t they simply check these people out. The employment form I have heard mentoned is an I-9 and ICE has the right to check I-9’s without warrant for any reason. Where are you guys?
All:
Please remember that a database mismatch can occur because many of the civil servants doing data entry are high functioning morons like this.
Common sense dictates that if you have an SSAN mismatch and the employee looks like this, it’s “adios muchacha.”
If there’s an SSAN mismatch and the employee looks like this, you inquire further.
Just when I think the courts can’t get even stupider, they go and prove me wrong again.
I used to work for the airlines as an administrator. Part of my job function was networking and maintaining computer systems. Due to the fact that I hold friends dear and do not burn bridges, I continued to assist them after I left. (The added income was nice as well though) But one of my many tasks after I left was installing a government program that checked the legality of applicants. I will say here and now that the program has been available for quite some time now … at least since 2005.
Well they have just legalized Identity theft…will wonders never cease?
/major sarcasm
Okay…it begs the question, then…can gay illegal aliens be lawfully wed in California?
War Tip,
Love to say that the system you installed could do that but it’s just too complicated. The INA has been around in it’s present form since ‘56 and was actually formed in 1917. The numbers of amendments and court decisions affecting it are to numerous to describe. There can be no one computer program that affirmitively defines “legality” as any alien may simply appeal almost any decision and go in to a state of limbo that, while not making them legal, exempts them from what the law calls “unlawful presence”.
The airlines have a system to tell them what documents are required to enter the US and almost every other country on earth called the TIM. However, those are merely documentary requirements and the issue of “legality” is waaaaay more complicated than that.
All of this being said, I don’t advocate the complication. It just is a fact of modern law.
If I lie on an application and my employer finds out they can and will fire me. I guess I need to change my name to Pancho and say I’m here illegally. Then I can always have a job.
These are the types of justices Juan McCain will appoint.
I never had the opportunity to run extensive tests on the program. I previously worked for a company called LSG Sky Chefs and did install the program for them … after I left employment. I cannot say it worked in all cases but it ran everyone through except one who was subsequently let go. It may have errors but I doubt it is as lackluster as doing nothing.
I agree that nothing is simple … especially in terms of the govt … but it is definitely a starting point.
War Tip,
I agree. It’s a starting point. What really needs to happen is the law needs to be simplified. Either an alien is legal, or isn’t. There are too many ways to be in limbo.
I maintain that treating money earned by illegals like drug money and seizing it is the only realistic path to take. 99% of Illegals come to the US to earn money. Take that opportunity from them. Then, prosecute them under 8USC1325(a)(iii) - look it up, it’s a good one- and then tax all electronic money transfers a minimum of 5% when they cross US borders. If they would do this, our problems would end very quickly.
WarTip:
Having had access to Army personnel databases, I can attest that a small number of records contained unverified SSANs–none related to immigration issues. I could also see evidence that the records were eventually reconciled.
That’s why I advocate a “duck” test or “eyeball” test when dealing with SSANs.
Do you all see why this Californian supports conservative-patriotic candidates nation-wide??
1.) I don’t have a choice
2.) their votes - when they are elected–affect me and mine.
http://www.iraqvetsforcongress.com/
Many of those related to airline catering apparently were due to immigration issues. However, the dept of SS will still not let people know when their number is being used in a questionable manner. Granted, there has to be more painted on the picture but any start is better than sitting on our hands and doing nothing. BTW, if you come across my records, could you help me straighten them out?
Sweet! Who’s willing to let me use their SS# so I can buy a house?
These statement are just outright false, and were not the result of the judgement by the Court of Appeals. Nobody is forcing anybody to hire illegal aliens, and there was no mention of fake SS numbers being used in this case.
The 9th district court is correct in this one. I keep reading comment after comment about using fake SS numbers, but nothing like that was even mentioned in this case. The facts are clear: the SSA sent non-matching letters to Aramark. That was all. There could be various reasons for it not matching anything, but the letter in itself does not automatically mean the worker is illegal. Furthermore, a non-matching letter does not equate to a false SS# being used either. In fact, the reason for sending the letters was never mentioned at all.
If you want to give me my good credit back, you can use mine
What good are Social Security numbers if employers can’t use them to verify someone’s citizenship?
Oh, that’s right. As long as illegals use a number, any number, they pay taxes like the rest of us on a fund that will be drying up not long from now. But when illegals want to retire, they won’t be able, since their SSN’s aren’t legitimate. Then Congress will come up with an Immigrant Retirement Tax or something like that.
Friggin’ unions. Friggin’ “unbiased law interpreters.” You suck.
Public outcry, why hast thou forsaken us? This story should be a big deal because of the wide-ranging, long-term effects. No, the future of our environment’s more important than the future of our money, security, and identity. (Of course it is. Silly me.)
1. social security and ssn# should only be used for the purpose they were created.
2. social security should be eliminated.
I agree with Khan. I would rather have some modicum of privacy from the government (especially with Leftists at the helm) than fewer illegals.
Social Security was never meant to be an ID for Citizenship.
Americans are losing this country rapidly and it’s not even a fight. Our activist courts are handing over our country to whatever extremist groups they support.
HOW MUCH LONGER CAN WE ALLOW THIS SORT OF THING TO GO ON BEFORE OUR RIGHTS AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IS DONE AWAY WITH?
lets get the social security numbers of ALL the judges in the court, post them to illegals sites, and let the illegals use THE JUDGES numbers out in California.
Good grief! Even the danged EU is more on top of this crap than we are. That is just p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c..PATHETIC.
Holly Cow! Identity theft by illegal invaders is now sanctioned by the 9th Circus Court? The sad thing is the legislation from the bench by these fascists in black robes effect most Western States to include Idaho. Time for some old fashioned Wild West vigilanty justice to put an end to this ever growing problem. Too bad it cost too much to drive to the People’s Republic of California to string these bastards up.
Well, that would just never do, OC. Then, those jurists (let’s use that term loosely, okay?) would have to contend with the fallout of identy theft and such.
I have a friend who used to be a social worker and their non-prof agency handled a federal program to assist low income county residents with their heating bills.
One of the things you had to submit with your application for the program was your SSN. Many illegals applied, but had no SSNs. So guess what she was instructed to do, per the US government?
Assign fake SSNs to their applications. The government issued a series of phoney SSNs to use for these illegals.
We are screwed.
#53:
instructed to do per the US government, or instructed to do per her non-prof agency?
I’ve got my money on the latter.
SS#’s so they can get jobs then kill a person and flee back to Mexico. Then they get a new SS# and new name and come back and do it again. Like the link I posted in #17. Although PBoilermaker points out, we don’t know if that thug killed anybody, but I will go out on a limb and say he did, in my humble opinion.
As long as the employees were given the opportunity to provide a SSN that was valid and still failed to do so, then how can the employer be held responsible? This is f*ing unbelievable. How much were these judges paid off to make this ruling, because there is NO other way they could reach such a decision.
People are going to start taking law into their own hands soon.
“Ordinary Coloradan said: #49″
totally - you get all these judges and politicians suffering from identity theft and boy will things ever change fast!
I work in a union supermarket. Only one of the four reps that that I met was honest. Once they sent me a letter during negotiations and it said if you have any questions to call them. I called them to ask a question. When I said “Hi, I got a letter on such and such a date about the negations, they hung up on me. They have never replied to any letters or e-mails I sent them, except a form letter thanking me for agreeing with them them that unions are the best, when I was critical of them in the letter.
Who’s country is this anyway?
Obviously if you’re an American citizen, not you!
We might want to change that.
I wonder what would happen if unborn children were provided with fake Social Security numbers. Would the 9th circus make it illegal to
fireabort them without cause? I mean, if you don’t have to be born here to get constitutional rights, why shouldn’t unborn children get them too?Kommiefornia — stick a fork in’r, she’s done.
Great point Papa Louie. Of course that argument might cause heads to explode at the 9th Circuit.
If this isn’t government tyranny, nothing is. Did our founding fathers have a solution to a tyrannical government?
I’ll hopefully be taking a new job in CA soon. I think I’ll just “accidentally” put down the wrong SSN and then claim about 20 deductions (for both state and Federal tax purposes). That should take care of my pesky “tax problem” I’ve been meaning to deal with all these years. Can you say “loophole?”
Absolutely. I think you know what it is (was?) just as well as we do. The left is fighting tooth and nail to take care of that small speed bump as well on their way to transforming American into a completely socialist society.
I read much of the 24-page opinion regarding this case, and it seems that the case hinged on the fact that Aramark (the employer) could not establish “constructive knowledge” that the employees in question were illegal aliens. The “no match” letters provided by the SSA to Aramark were not enough evidence that the employees were ineligible to work in the US.
How does one acquire enough “constructive knowledge?” By requiring your new hire to fill out an I-9 form and attaching the proper document(s) that prove one’s identity and eligibility to work in the U.S. One of the documents allowed for identification is a Social Security card. E-Verify, which utilizes DHS and SSA resources, is an optional tool employers can use in addition to the I-9.
The I-9 form has a space for your Social Security number. My view: if you have no SSN, be honest and enter “n/a” in the space. However, companies have the right to refuse employment to those who don’t provide an SSN; hence the reason why illegal aliens put in a number that doesn’t belong to them. Above the space for your signature, it reads in bold: “I am aware that federal law provides for imprisonment and/or fines for false statements or use of false documents in connection with the completion of this form.”
Employers are required to verify employment authorization (i.e., identity and employment eligibility), but the documents that a new hire provides only have to be visually acceptable. If an employer thinks that the documents are fake but are later found to be genuine, the employer may face discrimination issues.
The I-9 also states that employers cannot specify which documents are acceptable. Aramark seems to have specified that they wanted to see a Social Security card or verification of Social Security renewal. It was argued that Aramark also didn’t give its employees enough time to get the required document(s).
When the SSN’s came up as “no match,” it drew a red flag; but since a potential employee is innocent until proven guilty of being an illegal alien, Aramark lost its battle. It’s interesting that the conclusion of the court opinion mentions that “it seems reasonable to suspect that some of the fired workers were undocumented.” It seemed reasonable, but it wasn’t enough to convince the court that there was enough constructive knowledge.
It is certainly reasonable for a company to cover its rear end if the DHS tries to bust the company in the future for knowingly employing illegal immigrants. Suspecting that an employee is illegal isn’t enough, though.
Will anyone follow up on the allegedly invalid SSN’s?
Good grief. Why don’t we just end the farce, and disband the Border Patrol and open the borders? The courts and politicians are trying to do it a little at a time, extending the agony for us that support strong borders. Use the money saved to open “welcome centers” for the mass influx of people sure to come. Make sure, though, that only the Left mans the centers. Got to get these new people signed up right away for the elections. It’s all coming to that.
graysonret..
You hit the nail on the head. It’s all about “trucking in the voters”. Huey Long would be proud..
I *really* don’t want to believe you’re correct…
…but the mounting evidence on the attitude of the federal government’s illegal alien “safety-net” forces me to believe.
I *really* would rather not.
BTW:
Whoever suggested posting the judges’ SS#, you could be sure, if you did, that he11 would descend on you from a great hieght.
– martin.musculus
Sorry, puke, but it’s true.
The phoney SSNs were provided by the FEDS.
When the applications from the illegals came in, with no SSN listed and no copy of the SS card provided as required, she was given a print out of government-issued SSNs to fill in the blanks on their applications.
Thanks for the compliment, (although I’m really eligible, as I’ve never been in as an Enlisted… you know, those guys paygrade E## or even E-O##…
)
(Atleast you’re *finally* using the slang somewhat correctly — you’ve dropped the “-head” part. You’re able to learn… there may be hope for you yet!
Oh, well. Like everything else, wishing something wasn’t so won’t cause a change in the fact.
It is illegal to fabricate a SS#. Would you happen to know if there is such a recourse here?
Although, even if the issuing agency violated the law, and it was determined that the government would *allow* a suit, (since you cant sue the gov. w/o its permission…), I haven’t the foggiest how you’d get them to grant you or I standing… in their minds we aren’t a “directly involved party”, which is what I think standing requires.
Maybe as a class-action, as a holder of a valid SS#, we could claim that issuing phony ones devalue our #’s utility.
Any lawyers out there have an opinion?
– martin.musculus
rrrrrr, PDA & fumble-fingr arthitis srtike again..
really eligible = *not* really eligible…
– musculus