Well, I don’t really mind how folks approach me on the topic of religion so much. I can, for example, debate just about any aspect of atheism / theism and not get offended. I quite like discussing Thomas Aquinas, for example. The name calling is trite, but it’s to be expected.

I guess one of my issues (and the reason I joined this thread) is the constant assertion that evolution = atheism = eugenics = holocaust, or other such things.

Also, the implication that atheist = fifth-column leftists = un-American is often espoused on this blog. I am sure a number of commenters probably share Bush senior’s sentiments. These folks are my target audience.

If I am tactless or insensitive to other folks in the course of trying to communicate why / how I do not believe in God, yet at the same time do have morals and am a patriot, it is not my intention. It just seems extremely difficult to make this case without treading so carefully that my message just becomes platitudes, ie: “well, I understand that I am an atheist and I have absolutely no grounds to debate the truth of Jesus Christ and God (or Buddha, or Yahweh, or Allah, etc.), but hey I am a good guy too!”

On top of that, anytime I make the assertion just by itself that, “Hey I am an atheist and I don’t think these comments are fair.” I inevitably get assaulted and am compelled to defend my position against folks that want to debate me on the logic of atheism; following that, when I try to debate (honestly) I am called insensitive.

I’ll try to be a bit more careful, but I won’t pull punches in trying to make a point whilst being assaulted with rhetoric of the same kind as Bush senior’s (again not from you).

Thank you for acknowledging that what Bush senior said was wrong.

This is true.

Isn’t saying I’m an atheist plenty?

Not sure what can be done about the inclusivity of this board or in general – how would you prefer people to approach you?

That’s just a stupid statement. Should he have retracted it, absolutely.

Alright. I am content to leave it alone. I do want to say though, I did not know Abstractmind was an atheist. I had suspected, but I was unsure.

As far as the believers on this forum, well, they are easy to spot. Many of them (I am not saying you) deride atheists often.

This is my concern though. For an atheist to be inoffensive, he/she has to be so careful with his/her statements that even other atheists wouldn’t recognize them as such.

In the course of being “respectful,” atheists are relegated to the “back of the bus.” Even just stating, “I am an atheist” is sometimes enough to irk people.

Heck, it was only 20 years ago that George Bush Senior said:

No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

He never retracted this statement.

No. No, I don’t think I am being sensitive. Again, I think it is all about the sentiment behind it. I can’t explain exactly; however, I believe alaskangrizzly summed it up rather nicely:

I agree most (I have met) are like that, but I have met many who are honest and straight-forward and don’t try and play games with words to push their agenda. Abstractmind is one such on this blog whom I respect talking to despite that I disagree with his worldview.

You would have to read his posts to see what it is that we mean.

Yes, I am offended by your Santa Claus analogy. Everyone knows that Santa is fictious; however, not everyone believes that God is… to equate the two is rather disingenuous.

zero, you can use which ever one you prefer. At this point we are just spinning our wheels. I’ve made my position clear on the matter. I understand yours. Let’s leave it at that.

Also, I realize this might come up:

How could I communicate to you in a polite and respectful manner that I believe religious mythology is akin to any other mythology?

Perhaps you are offended by my Santa Claus example? Should I be using Odysseus as an example instead?

OK, I am somewhat confused here.

Is your issue with the word “guy”?

Here are my orignal quotes:

In fact, I believe Christ was a excellent guy that had a great deal of good ideas.

As I said, Jesus was a great guy with many excellent ideas

To me, that isn’t any different then:

I believe Jesus was a good person but that he was only a person

In fact, I think saying he was an excellent guy is much nicer than saying he was a good person.

Perhaps it is because text is sterile but I must stress to you that I was trying VERY hard to be as polite as possible and still be honest.

I doubt that a Buddhist would ask such a question when it is revealed that I am a Christian.

Maybe not, just as it might not be so likely we would have this conversation in person when it’s revealed I am an atheist.

My point in bringing it up was to try and ask you how you would communicate to a Mahayana Buddhist that you don’t think Siddhārtha Gautama is the immortal supernatural Buddha (”God”) incarnate. How would this be done in an inoffensive manner? I think we have gotten thus far though.

I am not trying to poke at you, but don’t you think you are being a bit too sensitive here concerning your faith?

I doubt that a Buddhist would ask such a question when it is revealed that I am a Christian.

That’s a great start – what you said right there.

Let me make sure I understand you:

If a Buddhist told you he thinks Jesus is a great guy, this would offend you, correct?

If a Buddhist asked you your honest opinion of Siddhārtha Gautama, how would you reply?

Furthermore, is there anyway that I, as an atheist, could communicate to you that I believe Jesus was a good person but that he was only a person without offending you?

Additionally, I stated that I would be offended should a Buddhist refer to Jesus as a great guy… I provided an example of how I could possibly reduce Buddha’s importance and I would expect to be met with some resistance. I’m not sure this comes as a surprise to you.

If you cannot find a way to be respectful of Christianity as you would expect others to be respectful of your atheism… well….

I think it should be obvious by now that I am not a militant atheist that seeks to tear down Christianity and the moral code that goes along with it.

I would also say the comparison of atheists to Muslims is a poor one since atheists aren’t blowing up churches and murdering church-going children. Painting “moderate Muslims” with the same brush in the sense that they are passively compliant to murder and terrorism is one thing. Saying “moderate atheists” are “passively compliant” in allowing other atheists to exercise free speech is silly.

My main problem is probably with fundamentalists. The Muslim variety seeks to kill me. The Christian variety seeks to impede scientific progress and learning (as an example). I have absolutely no issue at all with progressive Christians that do not take the Bible to be a literal truth. I have no problem with Deists either.

both of us are reasoning from the same collection of evidence. The difference is the atheist won’t admit it.

Or the lack thereof. I can admit that. I think Russell’s teapot is applicable here.

BTW You’re going to have to stop using the unicorn analogy.

Santa Claus works fine for me.

If 1% of muslims are terrorists supported in some way by 24% of muslims and the other 75% of muslims do not denounce them they risk being painted with the same brush.

If 1% of atheists actively seek to destroy religion (and the moral code that comes from it) while 24% of atheists cheer them on, parroting their catch phrases and buzz-words (e.g. comparing Jesus to Zeus) and the other 75% look the other way then they also risk being painted with the same brush.

Does God exist? I don’t know, but I believe. An Atheist doesn’t know and doesn’t believe. The common part is we don’t know. The Atheist will argue he is a Champion of Reason and the Christian is only a Champion of Faith, but both of us are reasoning from the same collection of evidence. The difference is the atheist won’t admit it.

BTW You’re going to have to stop using the unicorn analogy.

Well, I don’t think I can explain “culturally Christian” anymore.

Appreciate that; however, calling Jesus a great guy certain ruffles the feathers.

This is the heart of the issue. As an atheist I can’t say anything good about Jesus, while being honest, without ruffling feathers. As you can imagine, it’s awfully frustrating.

I am not trying to compare atheism to other religions. I am just making the point that it seems to me, I could get away with saying Jesus was a great guy if I was any other kind of theist. Why does an atheist saying the exact same thing ruffle feathers while another theist wouldn’t?

Ref. recognizing beliefs in a respectful way. Again, this is the burden of the atheist. An atheist CANNOT be honest about why he or she is an atheist without saying somethings that might ruffle feathers. The common wisdom is that atheists should just shut up and keep it to themselves. However, its incredibly hard to keep it to yourself when folks (not you necessarily but folks in a general sense) constantly have less than flattering things to say about us. It’s especially annoying to me when aethists are equated with leftists, immorality, and such. Heck, I would have not thrust myself into this thread if it weren’t for all that talk.

I understand your position 30 pcs. It is impossible for me to honestly say that I am an atheist because I think religion is ancient mythology without offending people. Again, massively frustrating for me.

zeroangel:
Well, I hope you get my meaning of “culturally Christian.” It seems plain to me.

Maybe in your circles but not in mine… either you are or you aren’t. Not a dig at you but my lack of familiarity with the term stems full-fledged belief that Jesus is the Son of God. No, half measures.

Ref. folks I attend church with. That may be true of many of them, that is, having a deeply held belief and a true love of God. I don’t think it’s true of all of them. I think many might have more of an idea of a “transcendental” more deist “God.” In fact, I learned recently from my brother, who had a conversation with our pastor from the church we grew up in (not the church I attend now), that this childhood pastor no longer believes in the virgin birth.

Not sure how this helps your point. Again, either you are or you aren’t.

I am certainly not trying to mock your beliefs. I am simply trying to communicate my own to you all in the hopes that I can in some way illustrate how bigotry against atheists is unfounded. Imagine if I were not an atheist, let’s say I was a Buddhist, and I said the same thing, that is, I think Jesus was a great guy, but not the son of Buddha. Would you find that equally degrading and insulting, or would you be inclined to respect my belief on the topic? Trust me, I am secure in my beliefs.

Appreciate that; however, calling Jesus a great guy certain ruffles the feathers. I, for one have not attacked you for being an atheist. I wouldn’t have thrust myself into this thread were it not for your Jesus as a great guy statements. I believe above you argued that atheism is not a religion yet now you are comparing it to other religions. Yes. I would find it disrespectful because that statement doesn’t recognize my beliefs in a respectful way… and is the equivalent of saying – Buddha, what a joke, you pray to an image and expect your prayers to be ansered… more or less. definitely something along that line.

The Santa Claus example was to illustrate how I feel about mythology in a general sense, again not to mock you.

But that’s just it isn’t. You go out of your way to make people know just how much you think belief in God is silly. It’s downright disrespectful.

Also, since they are my beliefs and not your own, why would my perceived “mocking” even bother you?

In the same that “I am simply trying to communicate my own to you all in the hopes that I can in some way illustrate how bigotry against atheists is unfounded.”

It is important to you that people have appropriate viewpoint of your position… well, same here.