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1. #360100
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:22 pm, chapoutier said:

   Sometimes innocent people go to jail in this country also. Our system is not 100% perfect all the time. Does that mean we stop putting people in jail because the small fraction of a percentage chance they may actually be inncoent?

   No. But we do afford them basic rights to allow them to try to prove their innocence.

2. #360104
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:24 pm, terrig said:

   You know Chap, the majority of those in the JAG Corps are liberals. If you’re not too old you can sign up and then when real Soldiers or Marines have to call to see if it’s okay to engage in a firefight you can tell them “no, they’re probably just innocent people who are shooting off fireworks”, as has happened and then feign being shocked that those who wanted to engage the enemy will now be coming home through Dover. This has happened but we know, they’re all innocents who were fingered by the neighbor who didn’t like them and somehow wound up at Club Gitmo.
   CC, don’t expect an honest answer.

3. #360111
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:27 pm, terrig said:

   Before you start with the innocent firework shooters, let me remind you that you’ve never been in combat so you cannot compare the experiences. It’s safe and snug behind your desk and you have never had to make a split second decision that really is a life or death one.

4. #360112
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:28 pm, terrig said:

   Forgot to add life or death on the battlefield. You may have had to make a life or death decision to take the keys away from a drunk but that is not the same.

5. #360117
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:30 pm, DBNinKY said:

   There are many that were rounded up after being fingered by their neighbors, never mind the reliability of those accusers.

   I trust the ability of our citizen soldiers – our sons, daughters, brothers and sisters – to discern the reliability of those witnesses in the field.

   If they felt those neighbors were telling the truth on the far away battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, I’ll not sit at home in eastern KY and second guess them.

6. #360129
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:37 pm, chapoutier said:

   they’re all innocents who were fingered by the neighbor

   There you go again with the lies about my argument.

   I am sure there are many at Gitmo who belong there. And I am sure that was small comfort to those who were innocent (which, again, there were and are) and had no possible redress.

7. #360135
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:44 pm, terrig said:

   Lies, this is exactly what you said:

   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:03 pm, chapoutier said:
   There are many that were rounded up after being fingered by their neighbors, never mind the reliability of those accusers.

   How am I lying about your statement? BTW are you too old to join the JAG Corps, they’re always looking for people. But why bother, you got others who will do it for you. My brother is leaving a lucrative practice in August to join the Army Jag Corps. Just feels his 3 years previous wasn’t enough. What say you?

8. #360153
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:54 pm, DBNinKY said:

   On June 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pm, chapoutier said:
   

   Which says everything one need know about you. You could not care less about such antiquated notions as “guilt” or “innocence.”

   I didn’t mean to sound flippant with that post but I was pressed for time, I had an appointment in Hazard, in adjacent Perry County, and less than fifteen minutes to get there so I had to motor.

   To your retort: Yes, I care more than you will ever know about guilt and innocence, as I live in an area of the country where distinction between the two is yet in this present day at the caprice of our local office holders and power brokers, but I do not assign such terms to our enemies.

   The men in Gitmo were captured, rendered through military not police action! They are our enemies, sworn to harm us in any way possible, and I refuse to willing share the Constitution and Bill of Rights with such a lot.

   Sorry if it offends you, but that’s how I feel.

9. #360155
   On June 25th, 2008 at 4:55 pm, chapoutier said:

   the majority of those in the JAG Corps are liberals.

   Bbbbuttt…you said liberals don’t serve! Which is it?!? I AM SO CONFUSED!!!

   And as to how you are lying about my argument: Neither I, nor the Supreme Court, nor anyone who supports its decision believes that everyone in Gitmo is innocent. Yet this is how you keep framing your rebuttal. You are forced to use ridiculous hyperbole to defend your position because to do otherwise would be to acknowledge that there are innocent people being held by our government with no meas of redress.

   If a detainee goes on trial or is at a hearing regarding his writ of habeus and Joe Soldier testifies “That dude was shooting at me” then great, lock the guy up and throw away the key.

   But you know, or you should know if you were as up on this as you would like us to believe, that there are many for whom that was not the situation.

10. #360179
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:08 pm, terrig said:

    Idiot, liberals are in the JAG and Medical Corps. Those who pound the ground are predominately conservative. Yes, you are confused. If you believe that those on the battlefield have time to make a “report” like the cops-who often don’t have time either then again, you’re missing a screw. Trust me, I’m more up on this than you’ll ever be. Funny thing though, have you ever seen a criminal who doesn’t proclaim that he or she isn’t innocent? Give me a break.
    Again, too old to join or just a coward? I think it’s the latter.

11. #360190
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:18 pm, terrig said:

    Doesn’t matter, don’t answer, no one is forced to serve which makes this such a great country and you can be as insulting to those who did as you want to be because it’s safe behind the computer.
    You also have the right to be more concerned for terrorists than those who do fight but I would just think twice about how many people in Gitmo are actually innocent if I were you. They can’t all be there because of stinky neighbors.

12. #360196
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:24 pm, cngerms said:

    Ironically, I hate guns outside of recreational shotgun shooting at my preferred national park in West Virginia. But the Constitution is the Constitution and I don’t see a way to deny the individual right of gun ownership through the text or through legal precedent.

    A little news flash for Rusty: The 2nd Amendment isn’t about recreational shotgun shooting in the woods; it’s about defending ourselves against tyranny, oppression, and persecution. As B1 Bob Dornan put it, “The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting deer; it’s about hunting politicians.”

13. #360206
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:28 pm, chapoutier said:

    ….the likes of liberals who won’t serve…

    Your words, not mine. Unless you think being in JAG is not service. Your brother may disagree.

    If you believe that those on the battlefield have time to make a “report” like the cops-who often don’t have time either then again, you’re missing a screw.

    You again are trying to rebut an argument no one is making. But strawman is all you got.

    Again, too old to join or just a coward?

    Our host here is (I believe) 38, which is under the maximum age. Is she a coward too? Is Ann Coulter? Was Sean Hannity? Rush Limbaugh?

14. #360216
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:37 pm, terrig said:

    Actually, my brother worries about being a conservative in the JAG corps. It’s service but I think it’s a different type of service wouldn’t you? I wouldn’t recommend speaking for my brother, he’s not too fond of liberal keyboard warriors like yourself.
    The reason I’m asking your age is because you seem to think it’s a job for others and since you have a “skill” you could help out. It’s a voluntary thing I know, but before you question those who have picked up these enemy combatants on the battlefield, I thought I would question how far you are willing to stick your neck out. This is not a question for our hostess or anyone else-just for you since you’re so big on telling everyone how innocent many or most in Gitmo are and question the military who picked these people up.
    Strawman arguments-please-when these people get their day in court those who picked them up off the battlefield will be called in to testify. They will have to remember the exact person from however many years ago and unfortunately some may have since been KIA. The gitmo prisoner will have to be then let go.

15. #360218
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:37 pm, chapoutier said:

    They can’t all be there because of stinky neighbors.

    The obvious corollary to this statement is that some are. Hey! I think you are finally getting it!

    Now you just have to take that little leap that says it is unfair to leave these people whom you just admitted were innocent locked up, with no ability to petition for their freedom.

    Come on! You can do it! I’m clapping for ya!

16. #360222
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:39 pm, chapoutier said:

    picked them up off the battlefield

    Why do you continue to ignore the fact that many there were not “picked off the battlefield” but rather yanked from their houses?

17. #360226
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:40 pm, terrig said:

    Again, you’re not getting it. I never said they were all guilty I just believe most of them are there for a darn good reason and unlike you who are safe behind your keyboard I will not question the judgement of those who picked them up off of the battlefield. You want to question those who do the grunt work, I chose to give them the benefit of a doubt.

18. #360231
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:43 pm, terrig said:

    Why do you ignore the fact that given the opportunity they would slit your throat? But I bet you’re going to be the first to volunteer your services to help these poor, innocent people in Gitmo. Knock yourself out.

19. #360243
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:45 pm, chapoutier said:

    ince you’re so big on telling everyone how innocent many or most in Gitmo are and question the military who picked these people up.

    I am not telling anyone how many there are innocent. These are verifiable facts which, again, you continue to ignore.

20. #360247
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:46 pm, chapoutier said:

    I will not question the judgement of those who picked them up off of the battlefield.

    See #116.

21. #360254
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:47 pm, chapoutier said:

    Anyway terri….

    Time to go home. Please don’t feel I am ignoring you! Thanks for the wonderful discussion!

22. #360255
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pm, terrig said:

    Verifiable facts-I am not going to accept the facts of the ACLU. Again, guess you missed the reports about those who have been recaptured. But they were just innocent until that evil Bush got a hold of them.
    Again, please knock yourself out and defend these people.

23. #360259
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:49 pm, terrig said:

    Have a nice eveing and do go away and think about what I said. You’re safe, in your home don’t question those on the battlefield.

24. #360266
    On June 25th, 2008 at 5:50 pm, chapoutier said:

    Again, guess you missed the reports about those who have been recaptured.

    Terri, you can read my post 41 and the associated link for my opinion of that.

25. #360372
    On June 25th, 2008 at 7:19 pm, terrig said:

    Sorry, I don’t need to read blogs regarding this decision, I read it myself late one night when I couldn’t sleep.
    I would guess that Seton Hall is your Alma Mater. This is one person’s opinion who isn’t a fan of Scalia. So this does not surprise me that you linked to this. It’s really no different than LGM’s links to the Kos Diarist.
    Again, I don’t dispute there may be some innocents there but the majority of them are not. I trust those that pound the ground.

26. #360449
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:17 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    You know what, just to make everyone here feel REAL warm and fuzzy…I will admit that this is one area where I have been swayed by the conservative argument, including some made right here on this site.

    Something’s wrong with my computer.

27. #360450
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:18 pm, chapoutier said:

    Again, I don’t dispute there may be some innocents there but the majority of them are not.

    Fordham undergrad and Georgetown law.

    I am glad you read the case itself, but nothing in there would indicate that Scalia’s claim was flatly and verifiably wrong. And if you had read the link you would know that the author got his info from the DoD. Hardly the same as a Kos diarist.

    But to your quote above, do you not care about these innocent people at all, even if just a few, or are they just collateral damage?

    Trusting the soldiers, as you put it, is an entirely different question from procedural rights for detainees once they are under US control.

28. #360453
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:23 pm, chapoutier said:

    Something’s wrong with my computer.

    Aloha, do not adjust your monitor. Just wait till the next thread on hate crimes as it relates to Koran flushing and/or a business’s obligation to serve gay clients and all will be right once again.

29. #360455
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:27 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    Aloha, do not adjust your monitor.

    I’d already built the pyre.

30. #360461
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:33 pm, terrig said:

    I read the entire link, my daughter’s in the hospital and she’s been asleep for quite sometime, I have nothing else to do. I guess that you would be the same person who questions the Atomic Bombs and Dresden. You can think I’m the devil incarnate, infact I’m sure LGM does and probably Rusty too. Personally, I believe there will be no more detainees, they’ll all be shot but won’t be treated to the extraordinary measures that those who wear the US uniform are when they are captured . I think Scalia is right, you don’t. Again, that’s your opinion and everybody has one.
    I care about my husband and all the others who are in harms way. I do not care for terrorists, but feel free by all means to do so.

31. #360473
    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:51 pm, flenser said:

    Now you just have to take that little leap that says it is unfair to leave these people whom you just admitted were innocent locked up, with no ability to petition for their freedom.

    I don’t feel any need to admit that. And it’s not the role of the courts to enforce “fairness” in any case.

32. #360498
    On June 25th, 2008 at 10:24 pm, chapoutier said:

    And it’s not the role of the courts to enforce “fairness” in any case.

    Its unfair, unamerican and, according to the SC, unconstitutional. Which is in their purview.

    Terrig, I hope your daughter is okay.

33. #360527
    On June 25th, 2008 at 10:59 pm, Concerned Citizen said:

    On June 25th, 2008 at 9:23 pm, chapoutier said:
    Just wait till the next thread on hate crimes as it relates to Koran flushing and/or a business’s obligation to serve gay clients and all will be right once again.

    Yup, we’re just a bunch of bitter bigots clinging to our guns and bibles.

    Enjoy your arugula salad, Chap.

34. #360585
    On June 26th, 2008 at 12:20 am, flenser said:

    Its unfair, unamerican and, according to the SC, unconstitutional. Which is in their purview.

    It’s not unfair, not unAmerican, and not within the purview of the courts. You may recall that the Congress removed it from their purview.