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	<title>Comments on: FISA on the floor; nutroots in a frenzy; Update: FISA reform passes, 69-28</title>
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	<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/</link>
	<description>news and commentary from a conservative perspective</description>
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		<title>By: YoungAndRestless</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-2/#comment-373380</link>
		<dc:creator>YoungAndRestless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-373380</guid>
		<description>I agree with Lion&#039;s comment in #42.  This bill has way too many loopholes that go beyond &quot;telecommunications immunity&quot;.  I don&#039;t like the fact that any of my communications outside of the country could be monitored, especially with the lack of judicial oversight.  

Arstechnica provided a decent analysis on this awhile back.  Just think, this website is &quot;communicating&quot; outside the country any time a non-American connects, no?  So couldn&#039;t MM.com be monitored under FISA, given some type of blanket authority that says, &quot;monitor all outgoing communication between AT&amp;T points in Washington DC and foreign country&quot;?  

&lt;a href=&quot;http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/fisa-compromise.ars&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The article is here&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;For example, the government could not unilaterally &quot;authorize&quot; the &quot;targeting&quot; of a particular San Francisco resident&#039;s international communications. However, it could &quot;authorize&quot; a dragnet surveillance program that intercepted the international communications of all San Francisco residents under the pretext that it was &quot;targeting&quot; any foreign terrorists who might happen to communicate with San Francisco residents.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;This is particularly troubling when we remember that in 2002, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review held that FISA does not prohibit coordination between foreign intelligence gathering and domestic law enforcement. That suggests that the FBI could ask the NSA to tailor its filters to intercept evidence of Internet gambling, copyright infringement, or other ordinary crimes. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Lion&#8217;s comment in #42.  This bill has way too many loopholes that go beyond &#8220;telecommunications immunity&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t like the fact that any of my communications outside of the country could be monitored, especially with the lack of judicial oversight.  </p>
<p>Arstechnica provided a decent analysis on this awhile back.  Just think, this website is &#8220;communicating&#8221; outside the country any time a non-American connects, no?  So couldn&#8217;t MM.com be monitored under FISA, given some type of blanket authority that says, &#8220;monitor all outgoing communication between AT&amp;T points in Washington DC and foreign country&#8221;?  </p>
<p><a href="http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/fisa-compromise.ars" rel="nofollow">The article is here</a></p>
<blockquote><p>For example, the government could not unilaterally &#8220;authorize&#8221; the &#8220;targeting&#8221; of a particular San Francisco resident&#8217;s international communications. However, it could &#8220;authorize&#8221; a dragnet surveillance program that intercepted the international communications of all San Francisco residents under the pretext that it was &#8220;targeting&#8221; any foreign terrorists who might happen to communicate with San Francisco residents.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>This is particularly troubling when we remember that in 2002, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review held that FISA does not prohibit coordination between foreign intelligence gathering and domestic law enforcement. That suggests that the FBI could ask the NSA to tailor its filters to intercept evidence of Internet gambling, copyright infringement, or other ordinary crimes. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Obama Makes Right Turn - Now Supports FISA Legislation : BigMouthFrog</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-2/#comment-373117</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama Makes Right Turn - Now Supports FISA Legislation : BigMouthFrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-373117</guid>
		<description>[...] FISA on the floor; nutroots in a frenzy; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] FISA on the floor; nutroots in a frenzy; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Danceswithdachshunds</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372242</link>
		<dc:creator>Danceswithdachshunds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372242</guid>
		<description>Posted by a lame liberal at a lame liberal blog: &lt;blockquote&gt;Barack Obama&#039;s surrender on the FISA fight was a perfect example of giving in when fighting back could have accomplished so much more....... With a word, he could have roused his supporters and activists to fight this thing to the bitter end, and assured his place in history as an avatar of real change.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
(In other words - &quot;He coulda been a contender!&quot;)

No liberals.... &#039;bitter end&#039; is the place where you are now and, YES .... we ARE laughing at you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posted by a lame liberal at a lame liberal blog:<br />
<blockquote>Barack Obama&#8217;s surrender on the FISA fight was a perfect example of giving in when fighting back could have accomplished so much more&#8230;&#8230;. With a word, he could have roused his supporters and activists to fight this thing to the bitter end, and assured his place in history as an avatar of real change.</p></blockquote>
<p>(In other words &#8211; &#8220;He coulda been a contender!&#8221;)</p>
<p>No liberals&#8230;. &#8216;bitter end&#8217; is the place where you are now and, YES &#8230;. we ARE laughing at you!</p>
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		<title>By: supersean</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372228</link>
		<dc:creator>supersean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372228</guid>
		<description>Although I personally do not agree with the immunity portion of the bill, there is something that opposer&#039;s of the bill must realize. In issues of national security, there is a great deal of information that is not publicly available regarding the uses and means of protection that these efforts have succeeded in the prevention of terror attacks here on our soil and also against our allies.

I would have liked a provision in the bill that states that these rights can only be used for issues and crimes of national security and any information gathered on any non-violent crimes by these methods would be excluded</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I personally do not agree with the immunity portion of the bill, there is something that opposer&#8217;s of the bill must realize. In issues of national security, there is a great deal of information that is not publicly available regarding the uses and means of protection that these efforts have succeeded in the prevention of terror attacks here on our soil and also against our allies.</p>
<p>I would have liked a provision in the bill that states that these rights can only be used for issues and crimes of national security and any information gathered on any non-violent crimes by these methods would be excluded</p>
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		<title>By: sonofdy</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372227</link>
		<dc:creator>sonofdy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372227</guid>
		<description>huffpo isn&#039;t even willing to put the issue on its page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>huffpo isn&#8217;t even willing to put the issue on its page.</p>
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		<title>By: DBNinKY</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372177</link>
		<dc:creator>DBNinKY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372177</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Unfortunately history is pretty clear on what government does with newly acquired powers, and using this as a guide - “it” might “someday” will be used against “law-abiding” all citizens.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

While I agree with the general sentiment, that any powers we cede to our government we must fight to regain, I don&#039;t think it applies to this situation. It&#039;s like was said on the floor: unless you have a terrorist group on speed dial, you&#039;ve nothing to worry about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Unfortunately history is pretty clear on what government does with newly acquired powers, and using this as a guide &#8211; “it” might “someday” will be used against “law-abiding” all citizens.</p></blockquote>
<p>While I agree with the general sentiment, that any powers we cede to our government we must fight to regain, I don&#8217;t think it applies to this situation. It&#8217;s like was said on the floor: unless you have a terrorist group on speed dial, you&#8217;ve nothing to worry about.</p>
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		<title>By: dominigan</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372170</link>
		<dc:creator>dominigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372170</guid>
		<description>Oh, I should mention that yes... I favor smaller Federal Government.  However, protecting its citizens from foreign attacks IS a Constitutional power granted our Federal Government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I should mention that yes&#8230; I favor smaller Federal Government.  However, protecting its citizens from foreign attacks IS a Constitutional power granted our Federal Government.</p>
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		<title>By: Goldwater Knight</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372142</link>
		<dc:creator>Goldwater Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372142</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Empirical evidence&lt;/strong&gt;
Laffer, in article published at the Heritage Foundation, has pointed to Russia and the Baltic states who have recently instituted a flat tax with rates lower than 35%, and whose economies started growing soon after implementation. He has also referred to the economic success following the Kemp-Roth tax act, the Kennedy tax cuts, the 1920s tax cuts, and the changes in US capital gains tax structure in 1997 as examples of how tax cuts can cause the economy to grow and thus increase tax revenue.[4] Others have noted that federal revenues, as a percentage of GDP, have remained stable at approximately 19.5% over the period 1950 to 2007 despite significant changes in margin tax rates over the same period. They argue that since federal revenue is proportional to GDP, the most key to increasing revenue is to increase GDP.[5]

At least one empirical study, looking at actual historical data on tax rates, GDP, and revenue, placed the revenue-maximizing tax rate (the point at which another marginal tax rate increase would decrease tax revenue) as high as 80%. Paul Samuelson argues in his popular economic textbook that Reagan was correct in a very limited sense to view the intuition underlying the Laffer curve as accurate, because as a successful actor, Reagan was subject to marginal tax rates as high as 90% during World War II. The point is that in a progressive tax system, any given person&#039;s perspective on the validity of the Laffer curve will be influenced by the marginal tax rate to which that person&#039;s income is subject.

Here&#039;s more you can &lt;strong&gt;eat&lt;/strong&gt; with your morning avocado</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Empirical evidence</strong><br />
Laffer, in article published at the Heritage Foundation, has pointed to Russia and the Baltic states who have recently instituted a flat tax with rates lower than 35%, and whose economies started growing soon after implementation. He has also referred to the economic success following the Kemp-Roth tax act, the Kennedy tax cuts, the 1920s tax cuts, and the changes in US capital gains tax structure in 1997 as examples of how tax cuts can cause the economy to grow and thus increase tax revenue.[4] Others have noted that federal revenues, as a percentage of GDP, have remained stable at approximately 19.5% over the period 1950 to 2007 despite significant changes in margin tax rates over the same period. They argue that since federal revenue is proportional to GDP, the most key to increasing revenue is to increase GDP.[5]</p>
<p>At least one empirical study, looking at actual historical data on tax rates, GDP, and revenue, placed the revenue-maximizing tax rate (the point at which another marginal tax rate increase would decrease tax revenue) as high as 80%. Paul Samuelson argues in his popular economic textbook that Reagan was correct in a very limited sense to view the intuition underlying the Laffer curve as accurate, because as a successful actor, Reagan was subject to marginal tax rates as high as 90% during World War II. The point is that in a progressive tax system, any given person&#8217;s perspective on the validity of the Laffer curve will be influenced by the marginal tax rate to which that person&#8217;s income is subject.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s more you can <strong>eat</strong> with your morning avocado</p>
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		<title>By: Goldwater Knight</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372139</link>
		<dc:creator>Goldwater Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372139</guid>
		<description>dental plan dakine said: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Of course, right wing authoritarians “don’t even know” that Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that his theory has been exaggerated and twisted for political purposes. Tax cuts do not in fact “pay for themselves”. Intellectual honesty is a beautiful thing. Try it on for size.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I base my statements on empirical data.
You know tax receipts from the Reagan era. Stupidity. Try less of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dental plan dakine said: </p>
<blockquote><p>Of course, right wing authoritarians “don’t even know” that Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that his theory has been exaggerated and twisted for political purposes. Tax cuts do not in fact “pay for themselves”. Intellectual honesty is a beautiful thing. Try it on for size.</p></blockquote>
<p>I base my statements on empirical data.<br />
You know tax receipts from the Reagan era. Stupidity. Try less of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Politicalguano</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372133</link>
		<dc:creator>Politicalguano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372133</guid>
		<description>Oh dear, oh my. Now the liberals warn me that Bush can listen in to my fascinating phone calls. Oh course, I don&#039;t call Islamic terror states often, don&#039;t discuss and support murdering our people, don&#039;t leak our military secrets to our enemies. If these savages are the ones the few liberal bloggers here support, then the libs should sell their homes and other property,drain their bank and retirement funds, and give every nickel they own to the lawyers for those on trial for plotting to murder them and their families to save themselves and their families from Bush. Perhaps they might try a real die-in and jump out of skyscrapers like so many of our people did to escape the flames of the World trade Center massacre. Or perhaps they could &quot;Honor Killing&quot; themselves like we see Muslims do to &quot;their&quot; women world wide.To you liberals who would endanger my family with your sick and distorted views of life and the world, you are my enemy and the friend of my country&#039;s enemies. Whether it is freeing child rapists, repeat drunk drivers, murderers, terrorists, or other threats to all of us by tying the hands of the police and weakening the Courts, or trying to take away our own means of self defense (anti-gun laws - see 2nd Amendment), the liberals are obsessed with filling our lives with real threats while demanding we focus only on their imaginary fears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear, oh my. Now the liberals warn me that Bush can listen in to my fascinating phone calls. Oh course, I don&#8217;t call Islamic terror states often, don&#8217;t discuss and support murdering our people, don&#8217;t leak our military secrets to our enemies. If these savages are the ones the few liberal bloggers here support, then the libs should sell their homes and other property,drain their bank and retirement funds, and give every nickel they own to the lawyers for those on trial for plotting to murder them and their families to save themselves and their families from Bush. Perhaps they might try a real die-in and jump out of skyscrapers like so many of our people did to escape the flames of the World trade Center massacre. Or perhaps they could &#8220;Honor Killing&#8221; themselves like we see Muslims do to &#8220;their&#8221; women world wide.To you liberals who would endanger my family with your sick and distorted views of life and the world, you are my enemy and the friend of my country&#8217;s enemies. Whether it is freeing child rapists, repeat drunk drivers, murderers, terrorists, or other threats to all of us by tying the hands of the police and weakening the Courts, or trying to take away our own means of self defense (anti-gun laws &#8211; see 2nd Amendment), the liberals are obsessed with filling our lives with real threats while demanding we focus only on their imaginary fears.</p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372086</link>
		<dc:creator>bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372086</guid>
		<description>Go Hillary!
Denver Denver Denver!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go Hillary!<br />
Denver Denver Denver!</p>
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		<title>By: right_on</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372065</link>
		<dc:creator>right_on</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372065</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;his&lt;/em&gt; theory&lt;/strong&gt;...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

According to Wikipedia, regarding the Laffer Curve (I know...this source is looked upon with much scepticism.);
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Laffer also &lt;strong&gt;does not claim to have invented the concept&lt;/strong&gt;, attributing it to 14th century Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun and, more recently, to John Maynard Keynes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that <strong><em>his</em> theory</strong>&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>According to Wikipedia, regarding the Laffer Curve (I know&#8230;this source is looked upon with much scepticism.);</p>
<blockquote><p>Laffer also <strong>does not claim to have invented the concept</strong>, attributing it to 14th century Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun and, more recently, to John Maynard Keynes.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: dakine</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372052</link>
		<dc:creator>dakine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372052</guid>
		<description>Of course, right wing authoritarians &quot;don&#039;t even know&quot; that Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that his theory has been exaggerated and twisted for political purposes.  Tax cuts do not in fact &quot;pay for themselves&quot;.  Intellectual honesty is a beautiful thing.  Try it on for size.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, right wing authoritarians &#8220;don&#8217;t even know&#8221; that Laffer himself has said on numerous occasions that his theory has been exaggerated and twisted for political purposes.  Tax cuts do not in fact &#8220;pay for themselves&#8221;.  Intellectual honesty is a beautiful thing.  Try it on for size.</p>
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		<title>By: Rip Ford</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372046</link>
		<dc:creator>Rip Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372046</guid>
		<description>The nutroots reaction to Obama&#039;s vote reminds me of the movie &quot;Rustler&#039;s Rhapsody&quot;.  At the end, good guy Rex O&#039;Herlihan finds himself facing off in a gunfight against another good guy, Bob Barber.  They draw guns and while in the world of &quot;Rustler&#039;s Rhapsody&quot; the good guy always shoots his opponent in the hand, Barber shoots Rex in the shoulder.  This prompts Rex to realize that Barber isn&#039;t a good guy after all to which Barber responds, &quot;I&#039;m a lawyer, you idiot!&quot;  Well, Obama is a lawyer and a politician.  It&#039;s a pity that the nutroots are only just now figuring it out.  It&#039;s an even bigger pity that ultimately it won&#039;t make any difference to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nutroots reaction to Obama&#8217;s vote reminds me of the movie &#8220;Rustler&#8217;s Rhapsody&#8221;.  At the end, good guy Rex O&#8217;Herlihan finds himself facing off in a gunfight against another good guy, Bob Barber.  They draw guns and while in the world of &#8220;Rustler&#8217;s Rhapsody&#8221; the good guy always shoots his opponent in the hand, Barber shoots Rex in the shoulder.  This prompts Rex to realize that Barber isn&#8217;t a good guy after all to which Barber responds, &#8220;I&#8217;m a lawyer, you idiot!&#8221;  Well, Obama is a lawyer and a politician.  It&#8217;s a pity that the nutroots are only just now figuring it out.  It&#8217;s an even bigger pity that ultimately it won&#8217;t make any difference to them.</p>
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		<title>By: The Conservative Reader &#187; Blog Archive &#187; FISA Finally Flies!</title>
		<link>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/09/fisa-on-the-floor-nutroots-in-a-frenzy/comment-page-1/#comment-372027</link>
		<dc:creator>The Conservative Reader &#187; Blog Archive &#187; FISA Finally Flies!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michellemalkin.com/?p=12868#comment-372027</guid>
		<description>[...] comments at Sister Toldjah, BitsBlog, Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, Stop the ACLU, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comments at Sister Toldjah, BitsBlog, Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, Stop the ACLU, and [...]</p>
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