Report: Abortion doc attacks pro-life activist
Reader Steve sends a tip about this story in the OC Weekly covering an abortion doctor’s reported assault on a pro-life activist at a shady clinic. Steve writes: “[T]he Weekly’s a pretty liberal publication, but I think they deserve a bit of credit for outlining some of the shocking deficiencies of care that have been brought to light at several Los Angeles area family planning centers.”
Props to the Weekly for risking the wrath of the abortion racket and shining light on these murderous thugs:
An anti-abortion activist taking photographs outside a controversial Santa Ana family planning clinic suffered minor injuries Saturday afternoon after being attacked by a physician who obviously did not appreciate having his picture taken.
According to Santa Ana Police records, Howard Tendai Pfpajena, 66, was arrested on suspicion of assault and battery about 12:30 p.m. near Fourth and Sycamore streets. Online Christian and pro-life news services that earlier today reported [here and here] on the incident had “Pfupajena” as the spelling of the suspect’s last name and claimed he is a physician at Clinica Medica Para La Mujer at 120 W 5th St., which is about a half block from where the suspect was arrested.
An unidentified receptionist at the clinic confirmed Tuesday evening that “Dr. Pfupajena” works there on an on-call basis. She said he was not present at the time the Weekly called, and she did not know about Saturday’s arrest even though she was working at the clinic that afternoon. “Is he still in jail?” she asked.
Police cited and released the suspect at the scene. According to the rabid anti-abortion organization Operation Rescue and the online news reports, the Orange County District Attorney’s office is weighing whether charges will be filed against Pfupajena.
The 31-year-old victim, Tim Nissen, is an anti-abortion protester who was photographing people going into Clinica Medica because of fears unlicensed or unsafe abortions are being performed there. The clinic’s owner currently faces charges that could put her behind bars for nearly 20 years after allegedly performing abortions and doling out medication without a medical license.
The Santa Ana clinic is part of a chain of Southern California abortion centers. A Los Angeles District Attorney’s statement refers to offices in Baldwin Park, Huntington Park, Los Angeles and Panorama City, operating either under the name Clinica Medica Para La Mujer de Hoy or Community Women’s Medical Clinic. Public records contain references to four more locations, in Chula Vista, North Hollywood, Torrance and Santa Ana. One clinic doctor said in a deposition for a 2002 malpractice suit that there were nine clinics.
A California Medical Board complaint accused Dr. Phillip Rand of having performed a “barbaric” abortion at the Santa Ana location in the summer of 2004. Then in his early 80s, Rand administered no anesthesia or painkillers to a woman identified as Angela P. before he performed a vaginal suction procedure. Paramedics later arrived at the clinic to find Angela lying in a pool of her own blood, her pulse racing and her blood pressure dangerously low.
See what others have said
Note from Michelle: This section is for comments from michellemalkin.com's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that I agree with or endorse any particular comment just because I let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with my terms of use may lose his or her posting privilege.
Trackbacks
Comments
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Categories: Abortion
TigerHawk
» Gone but not forgotten
Gateway Pundit
» 5 Mumbai Terrorists May Still Be Missing-- New Delhi ThreatenedHot Air
» Monsters of StatePower Line
» From Hollywood to Bollywood
Trying to take retroactive abortion a little too far?
Abortion is a safe and sanitary medical procedure. Women are treated with great care.
/sarc
As for the doctor assaulting the activist… what’s up doc? Not proud of your line of work?
Liberals are angry, egotistical and often easy unhinged.
But they are usually abject cowards unless backed up by a mob.
According to Barack HUSSEIN Obama, that “doctor” (whose violating her Hippocratic oath to first do no harm) is doing women a service by keeping them from being punished with a baby.
Abortion ALWAYS has one dead, and one wounded.
Is “militant abortionist” redundant?
Just par for the course really..
Why is it liberal news outlets describe anti-abortion organizations as rabid? Must be the passion for the unborn BABIES part they do not understand.
The press used to report on crooked abortion clinics, ones that hacked up their victims or scammed them out of money. One famous expose was on some clinics that told its “patients” they were pregnant and urged them to have abortions, even though they weren’t pregnant in the first place. The MSM usually stays away from these stories now because the careerist, rabidly pro-abortion, no-babies-are-gonna-git-in-my-way female reporters, producers, and editors do not want to give the pro-life side any ammo. It is totally in the tank for the abortion industry.
Tough to keep your own biases out of it eh OC Weekly?
Abortions will never end
Bush has done nothing… Obama will do nothing… McCain will do nothing…
If that assault, and battery turns out to be a felony conviction, he’ll loose his license to practice legal murder in the state he works in.
Beat me to it soap-box!
That really turns you on doesn’t it Snausage?
Sick $#&@.
Oxymoron, no?
Quick - somebody get Rusty on the scene! We can’t have this baby-killing, blood-letting butcher portrayed in a bad light! It’s the victim’s fault for making the doctor mad enough to attack - he should know better. Right?
What did Sausage say that makes you think he is pro-abortion, Mojoe?
Anyway, maybe instead of trying to make abortions illegal everyone who opposes it should just focus on making sure women considering an abortion know how awful it really is. We can eventually make getting an abortion so taboo only the most militant or rebellious feminist will pursue them.
Clinca..Para LA Mujer>>>>
Just doing the slicing and dicing that Americans won’t do …
JOHN MC - donde ESTA?????
CS -LFL
Clinica…
I wonder is Reader Steve, who submitted this tip to MM, is the same qdpsteve who made the only comment thus far in the linked source.
That’s a lie. President Bush has a consistent pro life record - he has signed any pro life bill that has come to his desk, like the Partial Birth Abortion Act in 2003.
Whoops, I should call it Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003.
Bush has done nothing? Why is Michele J. Fox all upset with him? Not abortion but its along those lines, right?
At least the doctor didn’t shoot him.
I believe Mr. Nissen is in his 127th trimester.
Hey man what’s the big deal? It’s good good money. One less POC emitting CO2 into the environment. /sarc off.
Bet he feels like a real big man crushing a photographers camera and puuting his knee into his throat. I hope he rots in prison personally.
The abortion clinic IS the decendent of the death camp. Of that there is no question. It’s greatest proponents were admirers of Hitler. True Lefists, to the core. Smash the human body in service of the State. Destroy the Sanctity of Life, and God is truly dead.
That is why the modern Leftist applauds the failure of the Born Alive Act (against which Obama voted) which would protect a human who in the process of being aborted drew breath outside the womb. Thanks to Obama, that child can have its skull punctured…legally.
But, we’ve gotta protect the Dolphins, and the Polar Bears, oh they are so pretty, and the brown skinned murderers and rapists of little girls. Screwed up priorities much, Democrat Party?
For the record, I believe in the sanctity of Human Life. I oppose the death penalty on religious grounds, and because I believe that a death room is a death room, even when the occupant richly deserves his sentence. But the abortion chamber is a much greater offense against human dignity. Innocent life is destroyed therein, and the instincts of Motherhood are perverted.
The Anti-Death Penalty groups drop me from their membership roles when they discover that I am actually pro-life. The only lives they want to save are those least worthy of it.
This is sick.
Bush also appointed Roberts and (eventually) Alito.
Life is precious… end Abortion!
Well, he has no problem abusing women and their unborn children.
I’m going to plug another blog here - Real Choice - that highlights (in detail) deaths and injury from abortion.
For all of you who, like me, are pro-life, this blog is unbelievable in terms of the scope, depth, and brutal reality it paints when it comes to “safe, legal” abortion.
It is not a pretty picture.
As for this…the truth hurts. The abortionist clearly had something bothering his conscience or he wouldn’t have attacked the pro-life photographer.
Oh, and major kudos to you, davidleerothmann, for an excellent post.
Clinics performing dangerous procedures should be stopped immediately.
As for the assault, how about I go to where you work and take your picture. I bet you wouldn’t appreciate it very much. In fact, I bet you’d pride yourself on punching someone who did that to you.
And let’s not act like this “victim” taking pictures was doing good. He was trying to embarrass women from making the choice that’s right for them…a choice that is Constitutionally protected.
Everyone involved in this story seems to be a jerk.
#22 rob said:
Agreed. Apparently this Doctor Pfpajena only specializes in killing people who can’t fight back.
Also, whenever someone says they are anti-capital punishment and invokes “Thou shalt not kill,” people on these threads will correctly inform them that the actual Commandment is translated as “Thou shalt not murder.” The difference being that murder is not legally sanctioned.
So calling abortion murder violates that same argument. Abortion is not murder due to its status as a legal medical procedure.
It’s just semantics, but I guess it’s something to think about when discussing these issues. Neither abortion or capital punishment are murder and using that word cheapens the discussion.
Rusty the fool opines again… Murder is taking the life of an innocent party. An unborn child is an innocent party, thus murder. But good luck getting that through your thick skull. And only you would defend someone assaulting someone else. If someone took a picture of me leaving work I would shrug it off and walk away since it is no big deal. And if I went off and crushed someones camera and assaulted them I would expect charges to be filed against me and a punishment to be handed down.
Only in your psycho world is this not common sense.
Can’t believe I missed your swoop and poop statement there. Where exactly does the Consitution garuntee the right to an abortion? Supreme Court cases does not the Constitution make numbnuts.
Rusty - This is getting to be a habit with you… You have really got to stop making comments about what you presume to know that we would all do in certain situations. I recall you doing the same thing with the Medellin story.
As to whether or not the assault victim was doing good… You yourself said that clinics performing dangerous procedures should be stopped. This man says he was at this particular clinic because of the unlicensed and unsafe procedures there. Since that is the only info we have on why he was there I see no reason to assume it was anything else.
On August 6th, 2008 at 1:13 pm, davidleerothmann said:
An outstandingly incisive post!
I just can’t understand why some women, intellectually gifted and supremely educated, allow themselves to be mislead into thinking the ability to abort an unplanned pregnancy is an empowering right that makes full members of society or equal to men when, in fact, it makes them little more than subservient to the latter.
Rusty,
The semantics argument only carries you so far. And the context is much different.
Medellin, as we’re discussing in the other thread, was put to death because he brutally beat, raped, and tortured 2 girls to death.
Abortion is simply a choice of destroying a life that committed no wrong and hurt no one.
i would think that along these lines, its clear why people such as myself favor the death penalty, but dislike abortion.
Rusty:
Well, like it or not the cameraman has a right to take those pictures.
Assualt on the other hand…
Google Earth has pictures of my co-workers on their way into work from the parking lot. Everyone who has complained about their face, cars, cats, property, etc being photographed for display on the internet has already been told that they have no legal expectation of privacy for anything that can be seen on the street. Taking pictures of people walking in or out of a building is perfectly legal.
Assaulting someone on the sidewalk, OTOH, is still illegal.
Very, very true, DBNinKY. In fact, when I had an abortion in college, it wasn’t because I was empowered. It was because I was scared. I let my boyfriend talk me into it and no one at the clinic did anything to counsel me otherwise. In the end I felt as far from empowered or equal as I have ever felt in my life. I felt low, abused, and taken advantage of - I have never gotten over the pain and anguish of that horrible, selfish decision. I know the blame rests with me alone, but I wish there had been procedures in place to counsel women about the mental health risks and the options they have. I cried from the moment I got there and yet I was ushered through without anyone checking to make sure I was really ready to go through with it. I know that a few people here think that abortion clinics help women, but nothing about my experience reflects that. That place was there for one reason, and it clearly wasn’t to help me.
Only if I were doing something illegal and didn’t want to get caught in the act - which is the basis for the pro-lifer taking the photos. He believed unlicensed and unsafe abortions were taking place there.
There is no excuse for abortion. None whatsoever. Read the blog I linked to earlier. Read the graphic stories of what happens when uncaring, cruel, heartless butchers like this abortionist get their inept hands on women. Then come back here and tell me you’re okay with what’s going on, and that this pro-lifer deserved to be assaulted.
Rusty hates women. He hates anything that is weaker than himself.
He defends a man who raped and brutally murdered two girls. He consistently defends anyone who commits brutal crimes against those who are defenseless or weaker than the attacker, i.e. women and children.
He defends the practice of abortion, which “perverts” the instincts of Motherhood, as Davidleerothman ably put it, as well as murders millions of unborn women (which is the preferred sex to abort, statistically speaking).
I wonder at the kind of mind like his, with his unswerving devotion to the defense of anything that hurts, murders, mutilates, rapes, and assaults women and children.
You are a sick person, Rusty.
I have always thought “Choice” was a strange way to describe this practice.
http://www.blackgenocide.org/imus.html
They really need to verify the status of this guy’s medical license; the TKO doc seems too suspicious.
I’ve read the story twice and still cannot imagine a truly licensed physician behaving in such a manner over something as innocuous as a snapped photo. I may very well be wrong, but it feels like there could be some “other” reason “Dr. Pfupajena” did not want his picture taken, besides him providing abortions at a less than accredited clinic.
Agreed. I am so sorry for your experience, and wish you every pleasant thought and happiness in the world!
I hear you. I wish I had been there to help.
When I was in college, a girl friend of mine got pregnant by a guy who had no intention of marrying her. She decided to get an abortion, although I knew she was not happy about it. My other friend and I spent a weekend talking to her, trying to convince her to not kill her baby. Indeed, we physically prevented her from leaving her apartment that Monday morning for her abortion appointment, and promised her that we would help her through her pregnancy and childbirth.
We made a pact that we would babysit her child so she could still attend class and get her college degree. All of us girls (there were about a half dozen of us) helped her for the next 2 years of school so she could graduate.
She had a beautiful, healthy baby girl, and we were all her “nannies”. We watched her so her mom could study for exams, go to class, etc… We worked out our class schedules to accomodate her. Those of us who had cars took her to the doctor for the baby check up appointments. We made sure she had enough food in her fridge.
She graduated, got a good job, and moved away with her daughter. Several years later, I visited them. I can’t tell you the emotions I experienced seeing that girl, knowing her from when she was in her mother’s womb, and seeing her later, a beautiful and intelligent six year old child, with her whole life ahead of her.
I was moved in a way that I have never been moved before, or since.
I disagree with some of your points, Rusty:
I’m probably not a good example, but as of recent, I worked inside of a downtown NYC landmark. When the bell rang at 4:00 PM, we would file out between barricades, and be photographed by scores of tourists and media outlets, probably hundreds of thousands over my tenure. I wasn’t bothered because I was proud of my job.
In general, assault and battery is not a good idea in a public place with witnesses.
Did you read why he was photographing the “doctors” at this particular institution?
Rusty, this place is a horror show, no less a very real threat to the women who go inside. I contend that this kid, Tim Nissen, is acting as a consumer advocate, public health watchdog and a potential crime stopper. For all we know, Tim and his group might also be responsible for shining the disinfecting light of truth on the multitudes of fraudulent doctors and others posing as doctors within this horror clinic. Tim is actually doing ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, FOX, MSNBC and the rest of the MSM’s job. Where is Diane Saywer (Ms. Food Lion Fraud) when you need her? Not in fron of this clinic/operation.
Pick your fights carefully, man!
From the link above, a snipet from a speech from the Rev Jesse Jackson quoted about Privacy vs Public “The right to life”
And there is Jessie Jackson of the Rainbow Coalition. He led a march of about fifty protestors demanding the firing of Don Imus, saying, “Three strikes you’re out ought to apply to this position.” Not many know what Jackson wrote in a 1000 word essay to the National Right to Life News in January 1977 some thirty-one years ago. He said:
“There are those who argue that the right to privacy is of higher order than the right to life. I do not share that view. I believe that life is not private, but rather it is public and universal. If one accepts the position that life is private, and therefore you have the right to do with it as you please, one must also accept the conclusion of that logic. That was the premise of slavery. You could not protest the existence or treatment of slaves on the plantation because that was private and therefore outside of your right to concerned.
I don’t believe in murder, either of the unborn OR of the murduring bastards that are also known as abortion doctors. I would think that the fear of being targeted may have been his motivation. I hope he is able to reflect on his fear during his time in jail, as assault is still illegal.
#41 HeatherRadish; #44 atheling; et al:
“Google Earth has pictures….”
“I wonder at the kind of mind like his,….”
“You are a sick person,….”
You two folks don’t know how accurately you’ve hit the nail on the head!
That it a wonderful story and truly something that you and your friends should be proud of. If I had been a braver person I know I would have had plenty of support. My parents would have been seriously upset with me, but they never would have let the child suffer for my errors.
If more people in this country were taught the type of values that you and your friends exhibited, there would undoubtedly be far fewer abortions. Your example proves that the problem isn’t just the legality, it is the lack of value for life and the moral relativism that is ingrained in our youth…
atheling:
I knew someone through the blogosphere who wanted to adopt a child (she and her husband couldn’t have biological children). One day, she posts that someone she knows is scheduled for an abortion - and that we should pray that the young woman changes her mind and sees that the blogger and her husband want, love, and will raise her child and help her through the experience.
Thankfully - the young woman canceled her appointment at the abortion clinic, and the blogger got her through the pregnancy and adopted the baby…a little girl.
The baby was born less than two weeks before my son - every time I see pictures of her growing, blossoming, I think of how close (within hours) she came to being destroyed.
BrianNY: You read Real Choice, didn’t you? People - what BrianNY quoted above is just a sample of the stuff that Real Choice documents…is happening in abortion clinics across the country every single day.
Yet this is defended as necessary to women’s health. Yikes.
#36 On August 6th, 2008 at 1:59 pm, alaskangrizzly said:
“Can’t believe I missed your swoop and poop statement there.”
alaskangrizzly, your stateemnt is also dead-on accurate - literally - and dovetails nicely with the two listed in #52 about the one who is being referred to in your post!
That doesn’t make it right. As a nation, we should be ashamed we call the murder of millions of our children a “choice” and a “right”…
#54 E.Q.1 said:
Actually, I pulled those details right from the OC Weekly article that MM linked to.
It isn’t a Constitutional right, that was my whole point to Rusty’s swoop and poop. It is legal, but not a right. Nor is it right in terms of wrong and right.
Rusty,
I agree with you about people not knowing how they would respond to a photographer taking unwanted pictures. They can often become pretty obnoxious and confrontational, even actively trying to provoke an attack. With this article we just don’t have enough information to make an acurate judgement call.
As far as abortion being Constitutionally protected, it isn’t very clear. It’s according to how you view a fetus; is it an unborn person deserving of rights or just a clump of inanimate cells?
Depends. According to some, the unborn child magically becomes human when the mother decides she wants him/her. Otherwise, the unborn child is an “it”…just this thing to get out of the way before it interferes with your life.
You’ll either never get a clear definition on the humanity of an unborn child, or you’ll get folks who recognize the child is human and just don’t care because it’s “unwanted” and “inconvenient” or “unplanned.”
We do have enough information to know assault occurred along with criminal damage to personal property.
You can mock humanity (thanks to your first amendment rights and living in the most free country currently on the planet) by calling a fetus a clump of cells and ignoring the fact that the child in development if allowed to fully come to term would be a living human being. But inanimate is just plain false and not supported by any science. If cells were inanimate they would be dead cells.
Can’t say too much for your mind-reading abilities, Rusty; as Assault and Battery charges would stop me from attacking a person for the simple act of taking my picture. Just becuase you would do it does not mean others would.
And for your above quote, you are wrong… unless you can find a passage in the COTUS that talks about abortion. That so-called ‘right’ is Supreme Court dictated, not Constitutionally guarenteed. It can be reversed tomorrow. Do not pretend that Abortion is a guarenteed right or settled law. Far from it!
EQ:
I don’t recall anyone saying this. I do myself recall saying something to the effect of different women (depending on thier POV) would feel differently about a fetus in their own case. This is a different thing.
I’ve been clear many times. A fetus, IMHO, (and especially a zygote or blastocyst) is decidedly less than human.
If I were to believe otherwise I would have to call culling during IVF, cloning research, and certain stem-cell research “murder.”
This is unacceptable.
Honestly, isn’t this debate tired and old? I get it, the pro-life folks on this forum tend to think the pro-choicers are depraved and evil. I know I am neither depraved or evil, and I wouldn’t call any of your depraved or evil for your stances on this topic.
That blog is a perfect illustration of why abortion should remain legal.
I share your distaste for the practice, but there is simply no way to eliminate abortion altogether. Criminalizing abortion will force it underground, and with no oversight, the potential for such horror stories increases exponentially.
Perhaps for some, this is the whole point; forcing women to put their own health and safety at risk is their penance for commiting the sin. But if you have any concern at all for health and safety of women who make this choice — and I assume you do — then keeping abortion legal and safe[r] is the only option.
By all means, continue to discourage women from getting abortions, make sure they are aware they have other options. But understand and accept that if they do make that choice, they don’t deserve to put their life at risk in the hands of “uncaring, cruel, heartless butchers.”
That presupposes all women that get pregnant and don’t want the child will turn to abortion as their only option. Isn’t it possible that some will see the danger of a back-alley abortion and decide to put the child up for adoption instead of risking their lives.
While I don’t know the exact percentages, there are abortions performed for convenience. And like most on the pro-life side, my belief is that the time to decide you don’t want to have a baby is BEFORE you have sex, not afterwards when your prom dress doesn’t fit.
It is a human being, from the moment of conception. Genetically unique with his/her own body - an unborn child shares no vital organs with his/her mother and is a completely separate person.
Indeed - in the first eight weeks of life, there’s a great deal of animation in the cells. Three weeks after conception, cells are multiplying rapidly and splitting to form the child, the placenta, and the amniotic sac is forming.
A mere five weeks later, the baby is the size of a kidney bean and developing hands, feet, eyelids, and neural pathways.
By twelve weeks, the baby’s reflexes have developed - his fingers curl, his mouth makes sucking movements, and the baby responds if you prod your abdomen. “Quickening” begins anytime between now and 20 weeks (depending on the mother’s body size).
By 24 weeks, the brain is continuing its development and taste buds are starting to form.
A pregnancy is considered “full term” any time after the 37th week.
Babies born as early as 21 weeks have survived outside the womb, and thrived.
However, it is perfectly legal to abort a child at any of these developmental stages. And, given that most women don’t realize they’re pregnant until at least 8 weeks gestation, the unborn child aborted is far beyond a clump of cells.
How is this acceptable? How can you justify that it’s better for anyone involved to kill a child?
And - here’s the question I’d like you pro-abortion folks to answer:
Why is it a tragedy and a travesty when a woman cannot have access to an abortion, but perfectly acceptable for a child to be killed and merely an inconvenient statistic when women are maimed and murdered by “safe, legal” abortion?
How dare you? I am taking a tone here that is quite uncommon for me… You had better have at least anecdotal evidence to back up such a horrible statement. To suppose that people who are pro-life might wish a dangerous procedure on a woman as “penance” is sick and, as far as I can see, completely unfounded.
Focusing just on the words of the pro-life commenters on this blog, I can recall reading nothing but concern for women who have abortions. People here lament the physical and emotional scars left by abortion and genuinely feel for the women involved. This website is the first place I ever discussed my abortion experience since making that terrible decision 6 years ago. Everyone was kind and supportive. Some even offered to communicate with me privately through email if I needed any kind of help. No one seemed to think I should be punished for my sin.
Your argument paints a poor picture of those who oppose legal abortion. It also seriously oversimplifies the issue. To name just a few (out of many) points that your argument misses:
-Legal abortion clearly does not equal safe abortion.
-More people would turn to other avenues (like adoption) if abortion wasn’t promoted and made so readily available.
-It is very difficult to make women aware that they have other options when abortion is a legal, “easy”, socially acceptable option.
If you read my brief story in a previous post here, you will see that legal abortion leads to clinics that practically push a young, crying woman through the process without ever considering counseling her or offering her other options.
No, it doesn’t. Women are already dying at the hands of inept abortionists, unsanitary facilities, and heartless clinics.
I agree that there has to be a shift in thinking - and it’s coming. Pro-aborts failed to realize that the children born after 1973 would one day understand that their lives were literally hanging in the balance, contingent on whether or not their mother deemed them worthy of life. It does not sit well with me, nor many in my age group (I was born on the 10th “anniversary” of Roe v. Wade).
We need to show women there is an alternative. We need to take the tax dollars that go to abortion mills and put them into programs to support adoption (it isn’t free, ya know), parenting classes, and other things that build up a culture that respects life - even it its earliest stages.
Most women who have an abortion do so because they feel they have no choice (oh, the irony) - many are forced to do it by parents, boyfriends, and others. Many feel regret and many suffer pain - physically and emotionally for years to come.
It’s just not right. It’s not right that we value the “right” to have consequence-free sex and then ignore the fact women are facing serious consequences from our abortion-loving culture. It’s not right that 50 MILLION children will never know life.
The best analogy is the slavery one. Saying abortion is a private, personal choice and those who oppose it simply shouldn’t have one is like saying owning a slave is a private, personal choice and those who oppose slavery should just not own one. Both deny the humanity of people and treat them as commodities and possessions rather than human beings.
God bless you, JW2.
#67 englishqueen01:
Bingo!
Good post!
English Queen #56
From the above link I posted. “Choice” It is an odd term to apply to Abortion. There is nothing positive in the action of aborting. When the term Choice is used it is usually a positive term, you have “options” not so with an Abortion there is only one outcome. “Pro Choice vs Pro Abortion” If they won’t use the literal term, there is a reason, it is as bad as it sounds.
“Another area that concerns me greatly, namely because I know how it has been used with regard to race, is the psycholinguistics involved in this whole issue of abortion. If something can be dehumanized through the rhetoric used to describe it, then the major battle has been won…. Those advocates of taking life prior to birth do not call it killing or murder; they call it abortion. They further never talk about aborting a baby because that would imply something human. Rather they talk about aborting the fetus. Fetus sounds less than human and therefore can be justified.
Usually, when you shine light on a cockroach it scurries under the couch. This one turns and attacks. That’s all we need, a new, more dangerous species of cockroach.
Let’s rephrase what I have emphasized and replace it with its logical conclusion:
“Criminalizing murder will force it underground…”
#60 EQ said:
#63 zeroangel said:
Maybe you haven’t heard anyone say it, but it’s certainly true.
Take “baby showers” or the expression, “when are you having your baby,” or tee-shirts for pregnant mothers like “baby on board,” etc. All of this magically disappears when a mother chooses to terminate a pregnancy.
You will never hear someone ask a woman, “so, when are you aborting your baby,” or you’ll never hear an abortionist say, “just relax as you dilate, Ms. Jones, and we’ll have your baby terminated in no time.”
I’m in agreement with EnglishQueen1. Defenders of abortion, as like other subjects that are gruesome to contemplate, tend to tinker with semantics to lessen the severity of the subject: Abortion = choice. Baby = fetus or bundle of cells or anything more technical than human. Pro-life = anti-choice, blah, blah, blah.
It’s the same with visual advocacy. Pro-choicers bristle when pro-lifers march with pictures of dismembered babies. Peace and justice types like to get other peoples’ goats by marching with pictures of civilian casualties of war. Supporters of military action don’t like that very much. The only neutral practice of this strategy is when schools show gruesome pictures and movies of the results of reckless driving, but I digress.
No - it’s a perfect illustration of how, even with oversight, even when it’s supposedly “safe” - legal abortion still causes injury to women.
These women didn’t have an abortion…
And? The people who are the victims of vehicular homicide or manslaughter in car accidents caused by a drunk driver were not the ones driving drunk with no regards for someone else’s life. It is the ones who did drive drunk who took someone’s life.
Motive and intent. Something you obviously are missing in your vain attempts at painting some picture that women die for various reasons.
BrianNY:
I think we agree on this semantics issue.
I suppose my issue was with the phrase “magically becomes” as though whether or not a fetus is human is dependant wholly on perspective. IMHO, it is not, a fetus (and again certainly a zygote or blastocyst) is decidedly less than a baby despite the fact that some people call it a baby.
#75 rob said:
Were there at least six doctors with histories of malpractice complaints, addiction or medical board actions who were employed by one single entity, like the Clinica Medica chain, who were responsible for these 529,000 deaths that you cite?
Are you saying that, if these 529,000 lost souls had gotten abortions instead, perhaps at the Clinica Medica chain, that maybe they would be alive today?
I guess I don’t get your point.
529,000/365 = 1449 women/day. Today, 3,000 children will die by abortion which means 3,000 women will be exposed to the dangers of abortion.
No one here ever said childbirth is 100% safe all the time. Nothing is guaranteed. I could eat a perfect diet, exercise religiously, and still die of a heart attack at 45.
Medical science is not perfect, either. And obstetrics isn’t an exact science.
Yet I don’t get how the “pregnancy is more dangerous” or “abortion is better than growing up poor” arguments justify the murder of children and harming of women.
The answer the obvious follow-up question, ZA. When does the Fetus/zygote/blastocyst become a baby?
#79 englishqueen01:
Right you are, EQ.
I was doing all the right things and was in the best shape of my life at 41 when I made the diagnosis of MS on myself (the first attack was likely when I was 30).
EQ, keep on keeping on.
StanW:
We’ve been thru this many times on this forum.
The most obvious answer is when it is born.
This is not a “digital” question. There is not a single point at which a fetus “becomes” a baby. As such, I am inclined to say that an arbitrary point must be chosen based on several factors (viability, fetal pain, development of the CNS, etc.) and then push back from that point several weeks.
As I said above: if I believed that a fertilized egg is a “baby,” then I would have to throw out culling during IVF and research into technologies that could give amputees new limbs and grow new organs for people whom I know absolutely to be living humans.
To me, this is unacceptable.
Zeroangel:
We can declare a person dead when their brain ceases to function, i.e., no brain activity.
How about using the same criteria to determine that the fetus is human?
These countries do not allow abortion on demand.
I suppose that it is lucky for them that they don’t have to bother with pesky laws dealing with rights, freedom, and choice.
Iraq
Afghanistan
Iran
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Pakistan
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
So,right up until the moment it is born, it is not a baby or child or even human. It is simply a clump of cell that can be killed for wehatever reason?
So the child born prematurely at 21 weeks is a child, but the child aborted at 24 weeks is not?
The bottom line is, you have no idea when the combination of sperm and egg become a human being, yet you are willing to kill it at any time it is in the womb for any reason.
God help you!
Stan W:
Bingo. Moral relativist. Same kind of thinking that led to murdering millions of Jews, gays, dissenters, disabled people, etc… in Nazi Germany.
Okay - you have a problem with the phrase “magically becomes” - yet you follow it up with this:
So it is dependent wholly on perspective. I was completely accurate.
An unborn baby is a baby - from conception onward. This child is nothing else. As I’ve said before the argument that “it’s” not human until “it” can live outside the womb is weak.
My son can’t live on his own, even though he’s perfectly capable of breathing and being outside the womb - he can’t feed himself, change his diaper, or operate safely.
And folks like Peter Singer use that argument to claim children up to the age of one are not human and can be ethically murdered at any time.
If you start defining people by how they function, you end up with a society that only values people who are “fit” - there isn’t a doubt in my mind that attitudes toward the disabled, the elderly, the infirm that are cropping up and leading to euthanasia in many parts of the world are directly tied into the dehumanization logic used in abortion.
If you deny the humanity of those who are not perfect, who cannot fully function, you’re a step away from creating a category of “useless eaters” who can be justifiably eliminated because they serve no real purpose.
I think in the countries I listed above they say it something like, “Assalamu Alaikum“.
Maybe we could all say that…
No, I agree. But what the photographer was doing was wrong. The reason he was taking pictures was to try to shame women out of making their legal choice.
What good would taking photos do if there was a clinic performing unethical procedures? There’s no benefit.
Or we could call you a murder enabler, or maybe just a cheerleader for murder, or maybe a murder apologist. This is fun Rob, thanks for breaking off topic!
#77 zeroangel said:
Cool.
I recognize the various and changing stages of human development, but I don’t agree with those who remove the human element altogether. Zygotes and blastocysts are early levels of human development, but they are still human. They are not paper mache, potential bovine nor mere theory…they are human.
Long after death, forensic experts and ethicists are sometimes loathe to disintern remains out of respect for former life. Why? We’re only technically talking about exposed bone, carrion and ash. Just bundles of cells, right?
I suggest that there is a deeper deference to human life that once existed 150 years ago than there is for human life that was conceived just weeks earlier. Why? IMHO, convenience.
To revisit semantics, I also see convenience as the reason for using obfuscating terms in describing otherwise straightforward and brutal procedures.
It’s much easier to continue a distasteful or abhorrent practice by dressing it up in prettier clothing, than it is to constantly have to defend it.
This is extreme. Good bye IUDs and Plan B.
A supermajority of this country wants no part of such extreme limitations on birth control.
The photographer was doing nothing wrong, he was taking pictures of a doctor that he thought might not to be licensed to practice medicine or did you not even read the article? The chain in question had previous doctors that lost their licenses and still practiced:
Only to moonbats like you.
Abortion should be a non-issue. It’s an education problem. There are a lot of people who just don’t worry about using the proper precautions.
I believe that what’s offending most people is that too many consider it an alternative form of birth control.
I would also feel better about pro-life activists if they did a little bit of well-publicized work on behalf of family services - it would help their image A LOT.
And with regard to Tim Nissen, I would write it as:
Really? Banning post-conception birth control isn’t extreme? The anti-choice movement won’t go after Plan B and IUDs because they know if they do, they’ll lose most of their support.
The anti-choice movement values power and influence more than zygotes. Which is why Plan B is forever safe.
I think I would just call myself an American that values our legal system and doesn’t want to live in a theocracy. Glad I could be of help!
#84 rob said:
According to the OC Daily article attached to this thread, the Clinica Medica abortion chain doesn’t seem to bother with pesky laws either:
Whatever you say demon-puppet the pro-life crowd cares about life. If you lead by example and practice what you preach the results are evident; that is we abstain until married and have children that we raise and love. Simple. If everyone else followed that model STD’s and “unwanted pregnancies” (no such thing but I’ll let that drop for now) would be nearly non-existent. Sex has been so defiled in the last 60+ years that it is no longer viewed by much of society as the holy union between husband and wife and you wonder why STD’s and pregnancies out of wedlock leading to abortion are so prevalent in society? Not only that but their morally depraved enablers like you push it further and say “here, take these condoms and birth control, and IUDs and Plan B’s and worst case go see a doc and he’ll suck it right out of you” and say have as much sex as you want because it’s your right to feel good. It’s not a right, it’s a responsibility and a privilege.
You make me ill, but that’s nothing new demon-puppet. You’ve been on the wrong side (siding with convicted murderers, baby killers, etc) of nearly every issue raised I’ve ever seen you speak on, small wonder your mind is so warped on what is right and what is wrong.