Bush to address Russia crisis at 5:15pm Eastern; Update: “Unacceptable”
Update: Bush…” “Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,” Bush said a hastily announced statement at the White House.”
***
A press event is scheduled in the Rose Garden, according to USAT and other news outlets.
An interesting blog angle here on the government of Georgia’s efforts to communicate in the face of Russia’s cyberwar.
Computerworld has details:
Hackers, perhaps affiliated with a well-known Russian criminal network, have attacked and hijacked Web sites belonging to Georgia, the former Soviet republic now in the fourth day of war with Russia, a security researcher claimed on Sunday.
Some Georgian government and commercial sites are unavailable, while others may have been hijacked, said Jart Armin, a researcher who tracks the notorious Russian Business Network (RBN), a malware and criminal hosting network.
“Many of Georgia’s Internet servers were under external control from late Thursday,” Armin said early Saturday in an entry on his Web site. According to his research, the government’s sites dedicated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Defense, and the country’s president, Mikhail Saakashvili, have been blocked completely, or traffic to and from those sites’ servers have been redirected to servers actually located in Russia and Turkey.
As of midnight Eastern time on Sunday, Georgia’s presidential and defense ministry sites were unavailable from the U.S. Although the foreign ministry’s site remained online, the most recent news item was dated Aug. 8, the day Georgian and Russian forces first clashed.
Armin warned that Georgian sites that appeared online may actually be bogus. “Use caution with any Web sites that appear of a Georgia official source but are without any recent news [such as those dated Saturday, Aug. 9, or Sunday, Aug. 10], as these may be fraudulent,” he said in another entry posted midafternoon on Sunday.
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Regulus:
Good idea.
Didn’t Georgia start the whole thing after the province voted TWICE to secede? And isn’t Russia just answering a belligerant neighbour’s attempt to reverse Georgia’s de facto use of force to try and change a very clear vote of the population of that province?
I dunno but somehow picking a fight with a far larger neighbour, losing that fight, and then running to the international community is like your younger sibling running to you when they lose a fight.
For more info – the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Georgia actually has his/it’s own blog:
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia
The problem is that without some kind of at least perceived threat of military action to back it up, diplomacy is meaningless. Nobody sits down to talk unless there’s an “or else” hanging out there.
how about a charlie wilson’s war round 2 anyone?
purplepeep
Heads up notices are out to be careful on those sites …
Supposedly reports are that there are some Russian criminal elements that are assisting the Russian government … they are hijacking and blocking of the Official Georgia Government sites … most of the official sites are actually being redirected to other countries right now …
A heads up was put out to watch for the date on articles or news on the site that is not the current date to help determine if you’re on a valid site …
Just an FYI …
This reminds me of the Hungarian upsrising in either 1958 or 1968 when the west did nothing but should have.
Mexico has invaded the U.S. with about 30 million illegal aliens. Why is it we are concerned with Russia’s backyard rather than our own? This is planet earth. To go up against Russia in their home court, well read your history.
Our men and women are in harms way right now, and it appears a large Naval battle group is almost to the Gulf. We are going to do what to Iran? Blockaid?
Putin is correct about Kosovo, and more than half the world thinks we are doing the same thing in the Middle East.
My point is we have to pick our fights, and there are other ways to talk to the Russians without using the military.
China should be in the News everyday for what it has done to Tibet. But, for money, and power China will be made to look good. Why? To go along with a blockaid?
Could be, DL. Though the site is decidely anti-Russian invasion.
It’s not news that the Russian mob and the government are in bed together. It’s the true face of “Communism”, of what held up the USSR for so many years. Now they just don’t have the hammer ‘n sickle facade to hide behind.
The question is simple: what does it mean to be a US ally?
The second question: if a US Ally goes down and we are unable or unwilling to do anything about it, what will the consequences be?
Sometimes the question is not “what can we do” or “how difficult will this be”, but “what is the right thing.”
The time to decide that an ally is not worth defending is BEFORE you make them your ally and accept their help in YOUR WARS, nit AFTER they are attacked by a major power.
Post #14, I think, was one of the best responses we could make.
Both liberal and conservative sources say Bush encouraged the President of Georgia to provoke Russia by sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia. Bush Sr. also encouraged Shiites in southern Iraq to rebel against Saddam. Bush Sr. then stood by as Saddam massacred the rebels. Now Bush Jr. is repeating this trick with Georgians. Heckuvajob.
McCain = Bush = knows nothing.
A passage from a John Derbyshire column (on US protestations should China take Taiwan) seems appropriate here:
The U.S. will grumble ineffectually, up to the point where the
ChineseRussian ambassador loses his patience and asks the U.S. Secretary of State point-blank: “How many cities are you willing to lose over this?Hmmmmm, well the Russians will now need to keep up an expensive military presence there for a long time. And it probably won’t be too popular at home if/when those flag draped coffins start coming back.
My guess is that the Russians will be much less willing to support IRAN when Georgian resistance starts getting high tech toys.
Not pretty, but it is the way things get done.
starlightwoman, that was Hungary, 1956.
As far as putting tropps ionto SO – SO is or was, still a sovergin part of Goergia, so they were within rights to do so, even if it was an admittedly stupid move. They aere responding to increasing harassment and provocation from SO seperatists, firing on thier peacekeeping troops from behind the Russian “peacekeepers” who were arming and supplying them.
ANd NONE of that excuses Ruissians massive invasion of Georgia proper, the indiscrimanate bombing and shelling of civilians cites and towns, the destruction of port facilities, the occupation of territory, the “liquidation” (their exact words) of police and goivernment facilities inside Georgia outside of the disputed areas, their naval blockade of even humanitarian supplies (an act of war)…
Need I go on? Russia is CLEARLY in the wrong. Stop playing apologist for them – its inexcusable.
How do you excuse the Russians from this?
There is a lot more as well. Vladimir Putin has escalated fromr KGB Thug to virtual dicatator, and now is adding war criminal to his resume (if the charges that the targeting was indisciminate or deliberate).
Finally there is this – the REAL intent behind this: the ability to intimidate and retake and turn into vassals parts of the former soviet union.
There you have it – an outright thuggish intimidation attempt.
Any questions as to the intent and trustworthiness of Putin’s mafia-state Russia?
You, sir, are a spineless piece of whale dung.
Playing this off as if the Georgians asked for it by shooting rebels in THEIR OWN COUNTRY is as stupid as you and your little elf, lgm, are. If I walk up to you and demand $100 or I’ll hit you and then smack you upside the head when you don’t pay, were you asking for it? Let me guess, women who don’t wear burquas and travel with a male relative are ASKING to be raped, right?
What if France felt the same way in 1776?
Take a good long look at the world around you and pull your head out of the sand.
Oh, by “the sand”, I mean “your ass.”
Can you saaaaay…….FIM-92 Stinger
Brooklyn, EFP and IED will send plenty of body bags back to the ultranationalist’s families. Lets see how they take that?
And its a lot cheaper for us to create a dozen “Afghanistans” for true freedom fighters all along the russian border, than it is for them to fight them.
I hear that Bush also took a time machine back to 480 BC to order King Xerxes I to attack the Greek forces at Salamis. The fiend!!!
Of course, the Dems are a partly to blame for that since it was AlGore who invented the time machine – just after inventing the internet.
George W. Bush doesn’t exactly have any sort of moral authority to be condemning unprovoked wars, if you ask me.
Ordinary Coloradan re:
Brooklyn, EFP and IED will send plenty of body bags back to the ultranationalist’s families. Lets see how they take that?
I was thinkin more like stingers… airframes are so expensive!
Cite your sources, please.
JFK encouraged Cuban exiles to attack the Bay of Pigs and promised air support, but never followed through. Any more moral equivalence you’d care to make?
Obama = Carter
A capital idea!
Followed up with US forces stationed in the new NATO countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to prevent further Russian expansionism on the basis of Putin’s “the (ethnic) Russians need our help”-the Russians that still live in those countries (that their ancestors helped conquer in 1940) have better civil rights than Russians under Putin.
Am I the only one who has been walking around for the past several years thinking we are fighting a proxy war with Russia in the Middle East? Those of you who think Russia offers any material support against Iran are kidding yourselves. Russia is busy arming Iran and rattling sabers at the US when we take a threatening posture against Iran.
Invading Georgia is an obvious slap in the face to the US and NATO and an apparent power grab. The not-so-cold war may not be over after all.
It will be interesting, and scary, to watch this one play out.
purplepeep’s link is the same one I posted on another thread. I think it’s legit because the most recent news articles carry today’s date. Btw, The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia = Georgian Embassy in DC.
They have an email address too.
Anthony Scott – Georgia didn’t pick a fight with Russia; their fight, right or wrong, was with S. Ossetia. Russia has invaded a sovereign state.
Who’s next? Ukraine? One of the little Baltic countries? Anyone taking bets?
sonofdy, if you’re still reading, what’s the link to the UN? I know you’re packing your bags, but don’t leave without bidding us farewell, okay?
Signing off. It’s been a long day.
Well, nobody did, but since you brought it up…
Iraq wasn’t unprovoked. Saddam deliberately evaded weapons inspections required by the UN in an attempt to make it appear that he had WMDs. We went in because the UN was stifled by countries that Iraq owed money to. Given that he had already used nerve gas against innocent civilians, I wouldn’t call that unprovoked.
So where are all of the libtards burning effigies of Putin? They sure had no problem bashing Bush, but when it comes to Georgia or Darfur, they’re nowhere to be found. Could it be that Putin will put a bullet in your head, so you know better?
It’s time to step up.
I don’t see that anyone did ask.
Okay, call me a cynic. But he basically came out, and said. “Bad Russia, bad!” and offered no, “Either this stops or we’re doing this”.
Weak, too weak…
-Pat
Ordinary Coloradan has it right. There are plenty of actions that can be taken in a humanitarian fashion to make Russia backoff. By air, sea or land, the EU first and the USA second can send food, clothing and medical aid to the middle of Georgia and dare the Russians to shoot down Red Cross airplanes, sink Red Cross Ships, or blow-up Red Cross convoys.
I never liked them red bastards
RockyR said:
Am I the only one who has been walking around for the past several years thinking we are fighting a proxy war with Russia in the Middle East?
No, you are not see my post #110…
But the good news is that the Georgians (& some other break aways) are A. western(ish) & B. not Islamic. & C. Turkey wants in at the EU table.
The Russians muffed the timing here, & have created an unpleasant situation right on their soft “underbelly”, BEFORE BHO could be elected… stupid, really stupid.
Soap, I foresee time for you in an Obama re-education camp in the near future, after today.
Don’t worry. I have a feeling I will be right there too.
I find his use of the term “unnaceptable” as being unacceptable in this case. It’s like when people use “inappropiate” for “wrong”.
Hmm.
1. Mexicans actively invading from the south.
2. Muslims trying to dominate all over.
3. China building up the world’s largest military.
4. Russia trying to become significant again.
I think that’s the biggest major threats for the foreseeable future.
Can someone remind me how we’re addressing these issues?
Why did the CIA NOT know about the pending Russian invasion of Georgia? How could they NOT see the massing of troops, tanks, air craft and internet attacks prior to the invasion? If our government knew, why did they not prepare the Georian government with equipment to fight the Russians? Is the CIA still full of Liberal Democrat Communists???
Putin is clearly trying to reestablish Soviet-style hegemony over a sovereign nation he considers historically Russia’s. But what will the West do besides wag a finger like our Commander-in-Cheese, send in NATO divisions? Oh, yeah, I almost forgot those damning international sactions! Why, hurt me with a rubber hose!
This is a fearful reminder of what authoritarian governments can do to others when they have tons of nukes – and yet another reason of why we can’t allow Iran to get them.
Well said Leatherneck. We got bigger fights right here at home that are threatening to compromise our own sovereignty.
Leatherneck & chep, Damn good point!
So as the libs would say “think globally, act locally”… lets support the Georgians by getting our own affairs in order. (& sending some stingers)
Let’s see how fast France moves it aircraft carrier in to the Black Sea.
Our options are limited. Intervening militarily is not one of them. We don’t have the available forces and it would be a logistical/tactical nightmare with a Black Sea supply line.
The best things we can do are:
1. Kick Russia out of the G8 if we can get our totally gutless European ally Germany to go along with it.
2. Send the Georgians enough high tech weaponry that the cost will become probibitive for the Russians. I hope we’re already doing this. If we’re not, Bush is just a shadow of the person he was 8 years ago.
America First said:
Yes.
US response to Russian aggression in 2025… “¡APRUÉBELE los assholes del commie, diga hola a mi pequeño amigo!”
We, as Americans, sure do talk a lot. I see not much has changed. We often react when approached with the cries of our allies or freedom-seeking dissidents with words accompanied with no action or with words accompanied with a half-effort.
We had the Bolshevik Revolution in Russian- minimal American presence of 5,000 men, only committed after Czar deposed; Communists win.
Korean War- fought with half-effort, never meaning to win. North Korea lost. American troops still remain in S. Korea.
Berlin Wall- we watched idly while the Soviets built this wall in contravention to signed treaties; the beginning of the spread of the Iron Curtain.
Bay of Pigs- we promised dissidents we’d help. Trained Cuban exiles, then abandoned them to die.
Cuban Missile Crisis- lost missiles in Turkey, promised we’d never depose Castro.
Vietnam- fought with half-effort, never meaning to win. Communists won. Dissidents slaughtered.
Iranian Revolution- promised Shah we would help, but did not. Iranians more trouble now than ever.
Lebanon- came to the half-hearted aid of Lebanon against the PLO, and left promptly after the barracks bombing, leaving Lebanon, an ally, to be effectively taken over by Iranian surrogates.
Afghanistan 1- aided Afghans by helping kick out the Soviets, but left before the job was complete.
Persian Gulf War- liberated Kuwait, but alienated the Kurds and southern Iraqis, which provided many obstacles in the beginning of the OIF.
Somalia- sought to help the Somali people, but left promptly after Operation Gothic Serpent.
OIF- failure to engage Iran, who is actively killing Americans in Iraq.
We, as Americans, pride ourselves for standing up for our allies and “the little guy,” but really, do we? It continues to amaze me that dissidents around the world are willing to expose themselves to their (and our) enemies and ask for our help. Such remarkable and arguably irrational hope for freedom must be answered by our aid. If nothing else, we owe it to ourselves to do so. But we won’t, and the Georgians will die.
brooklyn red said:
Given that Russia’s managed to pour in some 500 T-72 and T-90 tanks with reactive armor, we should be sending them about 1,000 Javelin missiles.
Fire and forget weapons, and very lethal.
See:
Javelin at Army Technology.com
FilmLadd re: Javelins… well yeah, but only a coupla hundred. Wouldn’t want them turning up in Gaza.
Brooklyn Red, you and I are on the same wavelength. I had exactly the same thought about Putin’s timing. Why in the world would he not wait for BHO to win election to guarantee that he has a openly dovish, weak US foreign policy in place? What I can figure is either:
a.) He is taking seriously the recent talk from Washington about moving against Iran and he wanted to secure control of the Georgian pipeline in advance of a destabilized situation in Iran
b.) He sees McCain gaining on BHO and figures McCain will be more hawkish against his Mother Russia than are Cheney/Bush – should BHO win, no harm no foul to him for invasion
Either way, Vladdy knows the US won’t act against him. He knows, as does the rest of the world, that the US has no appetite for fighting. Bush has no mandate to act with a public so openly against the Iraq war after (with every possible respect that is due to our fine men and women in the Armed Services) relatively small loss of life and resources as wars go (note 320,000 dead in the Rhine valley alone during WWII). Unfortunately, I fear the world may be catching on to us…
This is the first time in a while where I don’t know what to do in this situation.
If this were a case of fiscal domestic policy or economics, I would be shouting at the top of my lounges with certitude what to do…usually blaming Leftists.
With this, Georgia is our close ally so we want to help them. But can we? We would set off a world war if we really did what was needed to protect them.
Proxy, proxy, proxy.
Georgia, NOT RUSSIA, started this dust up. Georgia knew well that Russia has an interest in the independence of South Ossetia. Russia has made this no secret.
Georgia, NOT RUSSIA started this conflict by willfully and deliberately killing people in South Ossetia.
Cheers for Russia for saving the inhabitants of South Ossetia, who apparently don’t count on this list.
If every leader in the world were ranked by intelligence or by common sense, dead last, sitting on the bottom, would be Mikheil Saakashvili.
Those who say that this will destabilize the region are not thinking clearly. This will do the reverse. The region will become very stable, unless of course the unthinking hotheads on this list have their way.
Russia was right regarding the Serbs. Russia is right regarding South Ossetia. The US has been wrong both times. Get over it.
Lovely. On the first day I get to sign up, the one issue that we could possibly disagree on is on point.
The United States would be insane to get involved with this. The Russians, historically, (USSR notwithstanding) have been good citizens of the world.
More importantly, the Russians do not screw around. The NAZI’s killed 20 million of them and they still wouldn’t quit. If we start some kind of trouble with the Bear, we might as well set it off with a full scale nuclear attack.
Besides, what do we care that the Russians take over a NeoCon infested rat-trap like Georgia? Is the fact that it’s army is practically an extension of the IDF have you people confused about what’s going on over there?
Georgia can never do anything for the West, we should forget about them. I dont know why we haven’t learned to leave the world alone. God knows, I want nothing from the world, neither should any of you.
I say, down with the NeoCon gangsters in Tbilisi.
Putin is brilliant. His timing: impeccable. Georgia has been applying for NATO status. Russia knew the US and allied countries would have to act if Georgia joined NATO. The pipeline of oil and natural gas into Europe, the Black Sea port, and the fact that Georgia is not adept to living by Russia’s leave, gave all the reason Putin needed. The Olympic games, a “peaceful” event that promises no outside aggression would be taken in Georgia’s aid as well as a media shroud to hide behind, provided the timing.
It is creepy how Pravda is blaming the war on the Jews
It seems like old school Soviet propaganda
No. Who do you think started the insurgency in South Ossetia? Who fueled the separatist sentiments, the “divide and conquer” strategy? Who set themselves up at the “peace-keeping” force in the region? Who acted as the benevolent provider of “freedom” for the Separatists by providing passports in Russia’s name, etc.? Answer: Russia. After the KGB fully succeeded in organizing and fueling a successful insurgency, given the violence done against the Georgians by the Separatists, the Georgians felt they had to act to maintain control of their lands, especially given how long they still had before becoming a NATO country. The Russians were waiting for this. Putin could use his stance as the “protector of the Separatists” to attack Georgia, which led to an invasion. Prediction: Russia will take control of both South Ossetia and Georgia, the result of a well-calculated plan by Russia, not Georgia.
The Javelin is a great weapon system (a heck of a lot better than the TOW missile.) You’re right, the Georgians could use a few of these.
I really thought liberal trolls would be too busy watching the Olympics or mooning over Obambi than to sign up to Michelle’s site. Obviously, judging by the truly clueless comments on this post, I was wrong.
What’s all this liberal “I don’t care about the world/ don’t need anything from the world” crap? What? So much for listening to Obama’s “Citizen of the World” speech!
BTW-What’s Obama doing this week? Vacation in Hawaii? Yeah, sure, he’s fit to lead our country!
I personally will plan on voting for the candidate who tells the Russians to “Get stuffed! GTFO of Georgia!”
First of all, lgm is certainly not qualified to be in this discussion. He doesn’t want war… then he wants war. Typical lib. Shut the f*ck up. You want to tangle with the Russians? Can we send your sorry ass?
Two I wouldn’t expect Bush to say much, given the left leaning MSM. Remember the NY Times loves giving away military secrets.
If we wanted we could starve the Russians. Things will get done, but we can’t screw the pooch on this one.
The only thing that I don’t understand is why Putin didn’t wait for the Messiah. That’s like having lgm as president.
Send me.
Why should we even care about Georgia, let alone risk American lives for it? It seems like they provoked Russia thinking we would back them up…
Yes, we do. The problem is that the American Idol watchers have a short attention span and the idealists can’t wait for something to protest about. This culture of activism has got to stop. Stupid people seem to think that they have to protest to show they care and are involved with the world.
Honestly, I wonder how much of this is a direct result of the Hamburg School’s philosophy from the thirties. One of our regular posters wrote an excellent article about it. I’d love to give credit, but my memory fails me.
Putin has done his homework. The Americans will not lead, the EU will dither, NATO will hesitate, and by the time GW leaves office the old Soviet empire will be close to reality.
What a legacy.
Send_Me, you and I had a fierce debate a couple of weeks ago on another subject….tonight though you are just rockin’ with the points you make in your posts.
I couldn’t agree more with your analysis.
One thing is certain we do need to modify our views on what drives the Russian mindset. It is not the Soviet Union any more as much as it is Imperial Russia. If you look at the many moves made in the past few years to restore not only the architecture of the Tsars but to rehabilitate the actual Romanov family you will see a major change in Russia.
It is no longer fired by the communist class struggle ideology, if indeed it ever was. That is as dead as Lenin. It is Russian nationalism that moves them. It is pride in Russia, increasingly so in its Imperial past. Putin has been especially adept at realizing that Russia needs a Tsar. This is something that many in the West have been very slow in coming to appreciate. It has been especially slow in dawning on a State Department still mired in Cold War technocrats.
Russia is going to become a great power again for the foreseeable future. The West can embrace this fact and use it to our advantage or we can engage in an often pointless struggle of gamesmanship with them.
We do not live in a black and white world when it comes to states relations with each other. The sooner the left and the right learn this the better.
I do recall
Thanks for the compliment.
The President addresses this issue and I cringe. Bush’s Administration has competely failed to understand the politics of southern Russia (Caucassion Region). Georgia, since its break from the collapse of the Soviet Union, has been had war and conflict with the breakaway northern states of South Ossetia and Abkhazian for some time. Now, with Georgia aligned with the United States, fighting with the U.S in Iraq, and its military trained by the U.S, they have sought (with the permission of the U.S) to reign in the rebel state of South Ossetia. Russia, looking upon our interference in their arena as enroachment, retaliated against Georgian forces when they attempted to re-assert control over South Ossetia. That Georgia attacked with U.S permission is undeniable. That the Georgians would have never attempted this without at least tacit support from the U.S, is fact. But, what the Georgians and the United States failed to realize is the sheer will of Vladimer Putin. Putin, who seeks to restore the former glory of his country, was constantly chagrined by the behavior of the U.S in regards to former Soviet Satelite states. That the cold war relic of NATO remained enforced could only be ascertained as a threat to Russia. Putin, and I hate saying this, is only attempting to re-assert the dominance of Russia in Southern Eurasian affairs. That our country (the U.S) foolishly attempted to continue our “democracy” crusade into Georgia and in the backyard of Russia is abysmal. Like the disaster of Kosovo which was beyond betrayal for the Serbian people (few states supported them and Russia was one), the U.S supported the indepedence of a state (Kosovo) that was purely Muslim and controlled by a terrorist organization and led by a prime minister who is a pimp and murderer. As with Kosovo, the disaster of Georgia is partly our own doing. Let’s put it in one more context. Can you imagine the state of California, seceding from the Union, becoming independent, several counties rebel, and then the state of China arms and support the state of California against the U.S. Would you think the U.S would not attempt to re-impose their control or order?
President Bush’s hands are tied. The MSM has been overly critical of his decisions and especially his war decisions.
They want him to threaten war and then they criticise him for doing it, probably for political purposes. All while our brave men & women have been committed to action an putting their lives on the line.
Where is the rest of the world? How much time are they giving out? Maybe waiting until after the genocide?
After the Olympics, Taiwan will be next.
I don’t like the “Putin is my good friend” line from President Bush. With friends like that……
Catholic Alex I could not agree with you more. Previous attitudes from the so-called “Modern age” be began to disintegrate in 1989 must be changed. The world is not as it once was and moreover it is not one world.
von Rum
Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit put it best:
“Okay, I don’t like the Russian invasion of Georgia, and I very much hope that it turns out badly for Putin and his satraps. But in light of people calling for massive U.S. action, it’s worth noting that there isn’t — and never has been — very much that we can do. Look at Georgia on a map, and you’ll see that there’s no easy way to get troops in except by air even if we wanted to, and we can’t fight a war against the Russian Army with only air supply. At any rate, a shooting war with the world’s second biggest nuclear power seems bad -
Yeah, I tend to agree that Pres. Bush cannot start a war with Russia over this. It would not be a good thing.
Your analogy is partially right. Yes, without a doubt, we are partially responsible. Considering that Georgia would not now exist (in all probability) without the actions of the United States during the Cold War nor the following support through money, arms and training, your analysis is correct that Georgia is partly our responsibility. Yes, Russia may be upset about this. Well, if they don’t like freedom (as they have proven time and again), then they can pound sand. Some of the leaders we’ve helped promote have not been the greatest. Democracies aren’t so much born as they are grown. Democracy requires the ability of the people to govern their own. In order to provide the environment for a democratic form of government, security and order must be established.
In your California analogy, you are partially correct. Yes, we could have imagined that Russia would be upset. However, as I’ve said above, the Russians are the ones who caused the rebellion in South Ossetia. I won’t repeat all I’ve said before. Bottom line though: I wear it as a badge of honor if I piss off a tyrant by promoting liberty. I only hope that we finish this with some form of action.
For some reason, most folks think military action means lots of tanks, lots of planes, lots of troops. It does not. There are different levels of warfare, types of warfare, and methods of attack (kinetic and non-kinetic) to achieve various effects. In many regards, I agree with folks who say we should not act in regard to Georgia, at least on the surface. We’re much more effective when working behind the scenes than with cameramen waiting on the beaches for us.
I’d recommend Natan Sharansky’s “The Case for Democracy.” Imagine, for one second if all free nations stood against Russia, China, and any other tyrannical government. I don’t mean with weapons (though that’s always a potential eventuality), but rather by saying, “we just won’t do commerce with you, converse with you, or help you, unless you change your ways and return freedom to your people.” We have to start somewhere. This could be it.
The rebellion of South Ossetia was not manufactured by the Russians nor was it created by Vladimer Putin in anyway. South Ossetia rebelled against Georgia soon after the Georgian break from the collapsed Soviet Union. The war between Georgia and South Ossetia (more of civil war) has been ongoing since the early 90’s. The vast majority of South Ossetian’s are Pro-Russian. What reason should the U.S have in sending troops to Georgia in order to reinforce their dubious claim over a province that refuses to join with them? Perhaps if we do this, we should send troops in to Tibet and free them from the tyranny of Chinese Communism (despite the Olympic Games….)? Or maybe it is our responsibility to assist the Kosovians in their continuous slaughter of Serbian Christians like we have been doing under the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration?
In the matter of “pissing off tyrants” in order to promote liberty, nothing seems more contrite than the fact that the Georgians are not as democratic as they appear, but indeed on numerous occasions, have exterminated Russian Ossetians in order to better lay claim to their control over South Ossetia. But then again, lets not forget, in the name of “Democracy”, we allowed Kosovo to become independent at the expense of Eastern Christian Serbs, that we allowed a terrorist faction (the Kosovo Liberation Army) to become the dominant party of a fake nation, and that a murderer, sex trader, pimp named Hashim Thaci is prime minister of that fake nation. Perhaps to enlighten all of you, our President, gladly met with Thaci and his henchmen in his endorsement of this sickening experiment.
Don’t be decieved by the actions of democracies for as history has shown us with the sellout at Yalta and Tehran of the Eastern States to Stalin, that “great” Western leaders like Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Rooselvelt along with Harry Truman, were complicit in the orgination of the Cold War and the dawn of the Iron Curtain. But then again, Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia, The U.S, NATO, the U.N, E.U, etc….are just players in a new round of global politics in the shaping of the future, for the better, or perhaps cynically, the worst.
-Thank God I still have my Parish, where I can still pray to God and love my family.
At least a couple of problems with your comments, CAlex.
First, you’re arguing from pure fantasy there, trying to grasp a relativism that just doesn’t exist. It’s better to stick with facts of what’s actually going on.
Secondly, in reality we’re dealing with a full scale invasion of Georgia by Russia, not some minor border dispute as you erroneously asserted.
Russian Forces Push Beyond Disputed Lands
“Russian forces for the first time moved well outside the two pro-Russian provinces claimed by Georgia that lie at the heart of the dispute. An Associated Press reporter saw Russian troops in control of government buildings in the town of Zugdidi just miles from the frontier.
Georgia’s president said his country had been sliced in half with the capture of a critical highway near Gori. And Russian warplanes launched new air raids across the country.”
Even Sweden took a harder line than Bush did in his statement, issuing a demand of Russia:
“The acting director general for political affairs at the Swedish foreign ministry, Mats Staffansson, told Mikhail Skupov that Russia’s conduct in Georgia was “unacceptable and contravenes the international regulatory framework,” a ministry statement said.”
“Sweden demands a withdrawal of all troops to the point that applied on August 6, before the start of the crisis … (and) urges Russia to immediately agree to a ceasefire and to break off hostilities,”
Sweden summons Russian diplomat
Send_Me you mention the following statement that puzzles me:
Just exactly what are you talking about??
Fantasy. 70% of pregnancies in Russia end in abortion. They have the highest rate of HIV infection in the western world.
Russia is the sick man of Europe. Not much of a future for their demographics…
War update from the Georgian MFA:
URGENT: Russian Ground Forces Invade Georgia, Georgian Army Retreats to Defend Capital; Government Appeals for Urgent International Intervention
At this hour, the invading army of the Russian Federation has entered Georgian territory outside the conflict zones of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Georgian army is retreating to defend the capital. The Government is urgently seeking international intervention to prevent the fall of Georgia and the further loss of life.
“We no longer know the limits of the invading Russian army—Russia seems intent on overthrowing the democratically elected government of Georgia and occupying the country,” said Alexander Lomaia, the Secretary of the National Security Council. “As a consequence, the National Security Council has just decided to bring the Georgian army to Tbilisi in order to defend the capital and prevent the fall of Georgia.”
http://georgiamfa.blogspot.com/
Leatherneck said
I agree completely. The situation with the illegals invading the USA is orders of magnitude more important to the US than what is happening in Georgia.
Think about what happened in Kosovo. Illegals from Albania slowly but surely changed the ethnic mix to favor the Albanians. Supported by their next door mother country, it is not surprising they wanted to break away to form Greater Albania.
My guess is S. Ossetia and Abkhazia would not be wanting to break away from Georgia if the majority of their people where ethnic Georgians.
Bottom line, examples around the world seem to show that trouble will occur where you have distinct a minority group whose mother country is on the border.
Switzerland is an example of stability, but I am not inclined to bet that we will be as fortunate.
Please direct some of the passion you have for Georgia into defending our own borders.
I would hate to have history write that the great USA saved Georgia (the nation) only to lose Georgia (the state).
American soldier captured in Georgia?
The Izvestia, a high-circulation daily newspaper in Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izvestia) has reported today, that an American NATO instructor has been captured by Russian forces in Georgia and has been transfered to a military base in Vladikavkaz.
The link to the original news story (in Russian) is here:
http://www.izvestia.ru/news/news185341
The website translates pretty well using the google translation service:
http://www.google.de/language_tools?hl=en
As far as I know, the US has indeed some instructors on the ground to train Georgian forces for Iraq, although they should be stationed nowhere near South Ossetia.
Breaking: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev orders halt to military operations against Georgia, Interfax reports.
The equivalent would be China launching a strike on Taiwan and the US backing them up.
Like Georgia launched a strike on South Ossetia and Russia backing them up.
And then we have Kosovo…
So what if China attacked Taiwan how would the US react? Would they not back them up?
And what if Serbia attacked Kosovo, or didn’t that already happen?
I have a question. How did Russia end up with a seat on the UN Security Council after the fall of the USSR?
How was that silly decision made?
luv2rumba said:
Kinetic weapons are stuff like artillery fire, machine guns, missiles, i.e., the use of kinetic energy to create lethality. Non-kinetic weapons = lasers, microwaves, etc.
Kinetic: using direct and indirect fires as well as air power (basically anything that goes boom or physically hits the enemy)
Non-kinetic: psychological operations, civil affairs, electronic warfare, information operations, etc. (Basically anything that changes the “human” terrain without firing a shot.)
Putin wants his slave states back and will stop at nothing. Georgia is just first in line on the way to Ukraine and other former Eastern Bloc nations. So while we’re touting the benefits of democracy in the Middle East (and I support the Iraq war and our justified removal of Saddam), assisted by Eastern European countries who know all too well what it’s like to be oppressed by a totalitarian regime, when push comes to shove, we’re just going to let them fend for themselves?
I know we have limited options, and that kicking Russia out of the G8 is one place to start, but surely our President can do more than declare an invasion of a sovreign country “unacceptable!” I’m sure old Vladimir is cowering in a corner over that statement, along with the ChiComs. Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi and the treacherous Dems continue to hold American oil reserves hostage.
I miss the days of “wanted dead or alive.” Unfortunately, that tough, no-nonsense President of 2001 has become a shadow of his former self, deluded into believing that being “nice” is somehow going to ingratiate him to Democrats and their media cohorts who will hate him no matter what he does.
This is also a failure of the State Department and Condi Rice, someone else for whom I no longer hold a positive opinion. She, like our President, has also gone soft.
The russians seem to be continuing thier illegal invasion and occupation of geogria dispite thier ceasefire claim.
ChrisFromGermany: Last i heard, an attempt to withdraw all the us trainers was being made. If one was captured, it would be while he/she was being withdrawn.
Thank you for showing reason and thought. For christ’s sakes, I am doubting the wisdom of many on this board. This is in Russia’s backyard. When Russia sent missile’s into Cuba we reacted appropriately and threw them out. Anyone that thinks Russia will roll over when the US shows up is crazy. Russia would respond harshly (and frankly they would be justified) to an attack or provocation form the US. We would not allow Russia to send military troops and weapons into any of the Americas nor will they allow us to place our military in a country that borders them. This would result in WWIII. Lest you guys forget. this is not some little army with 1950’s weapons. This is a NUCLEAR power. To add to that, we are stretched pretty darm thin in Iraq and Afghanistan. Military leaders have raised concerns of our ability to repsond to an Iran or N. Korea threat. Russia could take those countries out in days. As Leathernack says, go read history before you wnat to play cowboys with Russia. A VERY bad idea. Diplomacy and hope we can get Russia to withdraw and allow Georgia to remain independent is about all we can do realistically. And BTW, the comparison to Sudentland is a false one.
There are signs Russia may finally be satisfied. . .although at this point they’ve issued so much double-speak that I’m withholding my optimism until their troops actually withdraw from all of Georgia proper. I’m not sure we can hope they’ll withdraw from Abkhazia and S. Ossetia at this point.
On August 12th, 2008 at 2:27 am, atheling said:
Fantasy. 70% of pregnancies in Russia end in abortion. They have the highest rate of HIV infection in the western world.
Russia is the sick man of Europe. Not much of a future for their demographics…
If births are up 7%, there’s still something like 67.9% of Russian pregnancies end in abortion. (30% end in births, + (.07 x 30) = 32.1%
That’s still pretty dismal. And that’s after Russia govt. started providing material rewards for having babies. . .there were articles circulating about that a couple years back. That rise in birthrate doesn’t change what aethling said, based on the numbers.
yashmak, I doubt this is the russian end game. Yes they are going to stay in the two reigons. My guess is we will see another ZOS like in bosnia unless the russians just take the rest of the country. At this point I see little point in them stopping.
FYI, the CIA world factbook has Russia listed at a estimated .48% population decline in 2008, with 11 babies being born per 1000 people, and 16 deaths per 1000 people, and a total population of 140 million.
ZOS means zone of seperation. Sorry.
On August 11, 2008 at 11:43 pm, von Rum said: “…If you look at the many moves made in the past few years to restore not only the architecture of the Tsars but to rehabilitate the actual Romanov family you will see a major change in Russia.”…”Putin has been especially adept at realizing that Russia needs a Tsar….”
What? Is Putin whispering in your ear, suggesting that you’re in line for the throne? True, the Russian people feel secure when they have a strong leader. But you’re saying they want to bring back a “Little Father”? I don’t believe it.
On August 12, 2008 at 12:13 am, Catholic Alex said: “…That Georgia attacked with U.S. permission is undeniable. That the Georgians would have never attempted this without at least tacit support from the U.S., is fact….”
And you know this because……?
wearycitizen: 1950’s type nukes are still far too damn effective.
– sonofdy
Well, we’ll have to see. I’ve never been willing to guess at the motivations of the Russians, as they don’t always operate as we might expect them to. We have reports that they’ve taken Gori, but Reuters reporters were saying they saw no Russian troops there. So who knows what’s really happening?
I’ll just keep hoping for the best.
I doubt Georgia asked anyone for permission to attack rebels on its own soil. This would be the same as us asking permission from canada to arrest right wing terrorists who were bombing chicago.
Putin? My guess is this is not the end. The russians will demand a puppet ruler and move on. Looking at you ARMENIA.
Well, that was not what I was getting at but you are correct. All these people wnating to go in guns ablazing must be insane. Russian arms may not be 21st cetury but they are at least 80’s era at worst. And let me tell you, an AK-47 that is 20 years old and functioning can kill the same as one just off the factory line. Russia does have fairly modern nukes. But more importantly they have functioning inter-continental missiles, and lots of them. One nuke, of any age or size, detonated in the US will ruin our day.
can’t disagree.