Is Georgia in 2008 like Hungary in 1956?
I’ve said before that America needs to take up for her allies. It keeps the world safe:
The world works as well as it does–and, granted, that’s pretty marginal–in large part because the United States guarantees the security of its allies. Places like Taiwan and South Korea churn out magic toilets and miniature automobiles knowing that the United States will respond to incursions and aggression with overwhelming and sustained force. So far, our defense of the fledgling Iraqi government has confirmed that arrangement.
America does what it says. If you have an American security guarantee–and I’m looking at you,Saudi Arabia and Pakistan–you don’t need to build a nuclear arsenal. America honors its commitments, and the world keeps ticking–well, arrhythmically stuttering, anyhow–because there are big U.S. guns ready to retaliate against aggression. No better friend. No worse enemy. If America is backing you, you’re golden.
Unless I’m mistaken, we’ve signed no security guarantees with Georgia. But we are discussing bringing them into NATO, we’re training and supplying their soldiers, and they’ve been fighting in Iraq on our side.
So we’re not bound to do anything to help Georgia–except by our commitment to supporting freedom and opposing tyranny around the world. We’ve staked much of our identity as a nation on exactly that commitment, and as Georgian President Saakashvili notes, our reputation is under scrutiny:
If Georgia falls, this will also mean the fall of the West in the entire former Soviet Union and beyond. Leaders in neighboring states — whether in Ukraine, in other Caucasian states or in Central Asia — will have to consider whether the price of freedom and independence is indeed too high.
________________________________
We’ve faced such a situation before, and we chose, I think, quite poorly. We promised too much, and we delivered too little.
In 1956, Hungary was a member of the Warsaw Pact. After Stalin’s death, when Krushchev came to power, there was a bit of liberalization in Russia and Hungary picked up on that. In fact, they decided, spontaneously, to have a revolution and kick the commies out. Which they did, smashing the statue of Stalin in the process*, until Russia said “oh no you didn’t” and marched back in on November 4th and took it over again, with much repression and execution in their wake.
The story of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution is laid out here. This assessment bears excerpting:
Although the governments of the free world watched the Hungarian Revolution with deep admiration, they never seriously considered providing military support, nor condemnation strong enough to stop the brutal actions of the Soviet Union.
However, the heroes of 1956 did not die or suffer in vain. They demonstrated such uncommon bravery, such a universal yearning for freedom from foreign tyranny, that the whole world was forced to see the true face of communism at last.
If it is condemnation of Russian aggression that may make a difference, we’ll have plenty of that. Russia is, as Saakashvili notes, at war with Georgia, and their war has spread far beyond South Ossetia and into the rest of the country. Putin’s transparent rationalizations hide an avaricious agenda of conquest, and he must be opposed. We see the true face of Putin at last, and he’s every bit as ugly as the totalitarian Evil Empire which proceeded him (to which he bears an unmistakable family resemblance.)
Russia’s attacks are not only without justification, but they’re also indiscriminate and far out of any doctrine of proportion. No imminent threat justifies their actions. Nothing except a desire to punish and subjugate Georgia motivates their shelling of civilian targets far from South Ossetia. Russia should be ashamed of itself and of its leader.
I hope this naked aggression backfires on Russia like their catastrophic invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. They poured blood and treasure into that project for years, and earned the world’s opprobrium even as they hastened their empire’s downfall through their folly. We helped that defeat happen, of course, and I want to see us help out again.
Exactly how we do so…well, that’s the tough part, isn’t it?
On the other hand: one controversial detail of the uprising is whether or not Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty had extended false hope to the revolutionaries of military relief from America and/ or the U.N. A contemporary analysis of RFE/RL programmimg (available in pdf here) suggests there is some truth to that charge.
We must be careful in Georgia not to repeat that mistake. We must not bluff, and we can’t promise or imply what we will not back up. The stakes are too high.
But they’re too high to do nothing, as well.
*The Times of London article linked above notes that a statue of Stalin still stands in the town of Gori, Georgia –because it’s Stalin’s birthplace. No wonder Putin wants it back. It’s like Mount Vernon for him.
______________________________
{Post by See-Dubya.} Some more good points here at the Sundries Shack and at Ace’s. Oh, and once again, Tom Clancy’s writing…well, a Clancy-branded video game…feels eerily prophetic about world events.
I don’t like it when Clancy proves prophetic about world events. They’re never nice events.
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Scary stuff. Also scary is to compare Obama’s first ill-informed statement about the conflict with McCain’s all encompassing one. Obama is so green behind the ears it would be funny if it wasn’t so serious that he might be President. Sorry I used the color word…I guess I’m a racist to point out his breathtaking lack of international knowledge. Yeah, right.
What would Obama do? Maybe a Kumbaya chant or two? Do bears respond to Kumbaya chanting … And isn’t that the real problem we face with this Marxist changeling?
Talks, talks…and if that fails, more talks, tarpon.
Excellent article see dub. This is something we need to closely monitor and assist these people however we’re able.
Putin and his clique are counting on the West being weak and divided — and over the years they have been given plenty of evidence to reach that conclusion. Bush’s now-you-see-it, now-you-don’t foreign policy certainly deserves a good amount of blame. However, the delusions of the West post the fall of Communism (Well, we don’t have to worry about that anymore!) and our continuing suicidal energy policies are even larger factors. Putin thinks we are too afraid to act against him and his armies, lest we experience some pain funding our welfare states. He may well be right. In the short run, odds always favor the dictatorship, particularly an oil rich one.
The best bet is to provide Georgia with as many weapons as possible and bring in troops for the other former eastern-bloc nations. If Georgia falls before then, we would have to fund a guerrilla war with the aid of the Islamites. Again.
So the Afganistan war is probably a slightly better analogy. Either way one has to ask: where were our intelligence services? Have we learned nothing? I guess the question answers itself.
I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. If hopenchange gets the presidency, this scenario is going to be repeated over and over as OhBlahBlah urges everyone to “just get along”.
Reagan undone. Expletive deleted
Don’t worry! I’ve got it all under control. I have Putin on the other line and all he wants to do is talk to Obama to settle this.
Can someone go get Barak out of the Hot Tub for me please? Im on hold for the pizza guy too…
It’s “3AM” in DC and Georgia. And where’s Obama? Playing golf in Hawaii!
Obama ‘08: Leadership we can believe in?
Yeah, now’s the time for Ohblahblah to show us his foreign policy credentials.
C’mon Mr. Messiah, tell us what you’d do to sort this out. Just what would you do? What would you say? Are your vapid press releases the sum and substance of what you’d have on this? What would you do you think we need to do to prevent Russia from moving into the Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania?
Or do you think those people can’t wait to be back in the workers paradise and it doesn’t matter anyway?
Obama actualy said that a UN peacekeeping force would have prevented it, you know, like the one that prevented the bosnian genocide, the rawandan genocide, the dufar genocide, the last lebanon war, oh and did I mention that one of the sides in this war would be in command of said UN peacekeeping force? Obama is clearly an idiot.
On Meet The Press yesterday I heard E.J. Dionne basically blame the US for the Russian/Georgia conflict. Not only is that absurd on it’s face, but it diverts attention from something nobody seems to be talking about. Russia’s strong armed bullying.
Imagine if South Carolina wanted it’s independence from the US. (There is some irony in that statement.) Now imagine the US government ordered air strikes and the bombardment of parts of SC. Do-you-think the liberal do-gooders would be as even handed in that matter? Hell No! They’d be calling for international criminal courts to arrest the leaders in the federal government.
And I have an idea as to why there isn’t more condemnation of the Russian’s attacks. Georgia is pro-freedom, pro-capitalism, and yes, [gasp] pro American.
Lets say, for example, that the US attacked a similar sized country with a brutal tyrant, liberated it’s 25 million people, installed a democratic government, and at the same time defeated terrorist’s in their midst. What do you think the reaction would be to that? No need to imagine. Just look at the hue and cry coming out about Iraq.
So wouldn’t it be fair to assume that if Iraq was a country that was pro-freedom, pro-capitalism, and yes, [gasp] pro-American, and they were attacked by, say Iran, that these same silent liberal do-gooders would be blaming America while sipping their lattes as they write their ubiquitous anti-American screeds? Again, no need to guess. [See last sentence of previous paragraph.]
Hi folks. Newbie here with my first post. Little nervous.
My parents were among the 200,000 Hungarians that fled Hungary during the ‘56 Revolution.
It really irks me that nothing was done back then to help the Hungarian people. Unfortunately, it looks as though nothing will be done now to help the Georgian people.
Heaven help us if Obama wins. Not only will he do nothing, he will appease to the tyrants of the world. Things will go from bad to worse in places where they rule.
‘Evil prospers when good people do nothing’
No, we should not defend Georgia in this instance. If South Ossetia wants to be independent (or even join Russia) surely it’s up to them to decide, and if Georgia want to prevent them by force then they are morally in the wrong.
You don’t think for a minute that the whole world knows that Americans complain about every move the U.S. makes. Anything we could do to help would be met with protests. We’re a toothless tiger.
Antaradus: So if an area of say, SYRIA, wanted to become part of Israel, do you honestly expect us to believe that Syria wouldn’t want to prevent that? or even fight to keep it? Russia clearly invaded another country here. This is plainly a stalinist type power grb, nothing less.
grb = grab
On August 11th, 2008 at 9:00 am, FruNobulux said:
Right! And fancy words and lofty sentiments will not suffice this time.
This latest frightening incident is yet another reminder that we need a grown-up in the White House. While I have many serious policy disagreements with Senator McCain, I will gladly vote for him, knowing that he properly sees “a K, a G and a B” when he looks into Putin’s eyes. His initial statement in response to this act of Russian aggression provided a stark contrast Obama’s wishy-washy, morally euqivalent liberal (oops, guess that’s kind of redundant) nonsense. I just hope Americans are paying attention. There’s far too much at stake to elect a man who is at once an empty suit and a dangerous Marxist.
This could just be a test for the Russians. If there is no military response by the west, the entire nation of Georgia will fall beck into the Old Soviet Union. Then what happens to Ukrain, Poland, and the rest of the former Soviet Block? If we don’t push back at the beginning, where will it end?
Let’s not forget Georgia has done more than create “magic toilets”. They’ve asked to join NATO, sent troops to aid us in Iraq, etc. This is the first of many democracies Russia plans to gobble up. We must demand more from our leaders than half-hearted condemnation. Russia doesn’t need “breathing room” and we shouldn’t turn a blind eye while fascist Russia takes back all the lands Reagan freed from their tyranny and oppression when they were communist.
Interestingly, Rusty over at Jawa Report has the opposite view of this situation. Who’s right, I wonder?
Obama would simply send Jimmy Carter to reason with Putin and convince him that differences can always be worked out without violence and just how must of Georgia did he want? Jimmy would get it for him.
I’m not worried about the Islamic extremist factor like Afghanistan. The CIA Factbook lists Georgia’s religions: Orthodox Christian 83.9%, Muslim 9.9%, Armenian-Gregorian 3.9%, Catholic 0.8% (Yes I know, the CIA is rarely correct about anything. Thank you Joe Wilson)
Putin and his cronies only understand one thing to achieve a goal; VIOLENCE. They will slowly escalate military operations, knowing nothing can or will be done to stop them. Our words of condemnation will not change their behavior. Messiah Obama cannot stop them with his charisma, talk, hope and change. Fight violence with violence.
Since the Georgians have no air force, artillery and mechanized divisions to fight… they need to fight as guerrillas. We need to supply and train the Georgian elite forces with modern Stinger missiles to take down Russian aircraft. They control the air and Georgian movements. I’m sure there are computer chips to deactivate/destroy the electronics in them via satelite signal if necessary.
What I want to know is… How the hell did America NOT know the Russian troops, tanks and air force were planning, massing, moving and invading Georgia??? The Valerie Plame era CIA is alive and well.
Our allies(Like Tiawan) will be looking at how we respond to this.
AmericaFirst: From what I can tell, what they did was they were “training” right accross the border from georgia and then loaded live rounds and headed south. It was exactly the senerio they worried about during the cold war.
gau18man: So will our enemies. North korea, China, etc…
Hungary in 1956? My first thought was Czechoslovakia in 1938:
- “Sudeten Russians” being “picked on” by the local government;
- Which justifies “assistance” from Russia in the form of military threats and territorial demands;
- Further Russian demands for “regime change” in the victim country, which serve as pretext to swallow it whole.
Just substitute “German” for “Russian” in the above example and it’s Neville Chamberlain’s Peace in our time all over again. The only difference is that Hitler relied on threats and bullying to absorb Czechoslovakia, while the Russians resorted to invasion when threats didn’t do the trick.
Larger question: what of the West’s response? In terms of location and connections to Europe and America Georgia is more like Ethiopia in 1936 instead of Czechoslovakia in 1938. Hard to conceptualize World War III over Georgia.
But if we do nothing? Especially when the Georgian government is calling on us to help? What does that do to our credibility generally as an ally?
There’s no good answer to that question. I hope that somebody’s able to pull off a diplomatic rabbit-out-of-a-hat and resolve this problem, so we might still avoid a lose-lose alternative.
Hey guys, quit saying there are Christians in Georgia,
you know that upsets liberals.
They go blind when Christian’s are in peril.
Mine was poland 1939. The pretext was polish attacks on germany. (turned out it was the SS and they used a few prisoners from concentration camps to provide “bodies” of dead polish soldiers) The goal was the polish coridor to east prussia.(don’t bother looking it up russia expelled all the germans and it is still occupied by russia).
BTW FREE EAST PRUSSIA!!!!
Maybe I am confused. But from what I gathered, Georgia shelled a city in a province of Georgia that Russia occupied (supposedly as a peacekeeping force). The shelling killed several Russian citizens (military personnel) even after the Russions warned them not to harm Russian citizens. Georgia also took up th offensive while Putin was in China for the games. Not sure what there thinking was, its not as if the country is shut down when Putin is gone. Anyway, I am no history expert on this conflict, but I can tell you one thing, if a country shelled a city that had American soldiers and killed some, you can bet I would expect a massive retaliation to occur. I know this gets to who started what first, but Georgia made a huge mistake attacking Russian troops and Russia’s response is justified. But again, I have little knowledge of the region so hard to say for me. For sure though, doing anything to antagonize Russia, or allow some country to escalate us into a war with Russia would be a monumental mistake at this time.
We must help Georgia!!!
In 1956, the year of the Hungarian Revolution, I was 23 years old. Mercifully – for the sake of our sanity – painful memories abate over time. Yet, after all these years, I still cringe with shame when I remember how the free world, especially my own country, turned its back on the courageous Hungarians desperately fighting for freedom!
I know all the logical reasons why we let the Hungarians hang out to dry, but the war in Georgia is quite a different matter. Commenters on MM’s blog know as much about the situation as I do, so there’s no need to go into details and state the obvious.
Early this morning I heard that Ukraine has entered the fray on Georgia’s side. Time will tell if Yuschenko sticks to his guns and keeps the Russian ships out of Sevastopol.
What a mess! Had we not shackled the CIA years ago, we might not be contending with the maniacal Putin today. Just sayin’. . . .
It’s time to put the stealth bombers to work. Stuff just blows up in the dark, nobody has a clue what is happening. Georgia is gonna lose but make the price high.
Next cut off the grain supply to Russia. Call it a crop failure due to Global Warming from uncontrolled Chinese pollution.
Delist Russian stocks from the NYSE.
The Russkies will cut off gas and supplies so we strongarm our “allies” in the mideast to fill the gap.
Russia is weak at home and a real stalemate will cripple them. They won’t make through 3 winters without foreign grain.
What actualy happened was that georgian troops attacked a rebel stronghold. Thats what started it.
Whether Georgia wants to fight to keep a territory is irrelevant. Great Britain fought to try and keep the thirteen colonies, it doesn’t mean it was in the right and we should now hand them back.
By the way, the real reason Georgia is acting pro-western, joined the coalition in Iraq and wants to join NATO is because it wants to be defended when it tries to assert its claim over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Fortunately we will not be used as a powerful pawn in someone else’s game.
President Saakashvili must be crazy to think that we’ll get involved in a war with Russia just so that he can get his hands on two tiny breakaway territories.
Okay, I am now rolling on the floor laugh my head off. That’s funny, I don’t care who you are.
It is 2 territories and it is every countries right, even syrias, to fight to maintain its own borders. (yes I know what your username refers to.)
Wait, you mean that factories over there don’t control polution? NNNNOOOOO, I thought the chinesse cared about the ecoblah blah blah, I just couldn’t continue that with a striaght face.
Not if the inhabitants want to be independent or join another country. Otherwise Texans would still be Mexican by now, who in turn would still be Spanish. And we’d all be living in a giant version of Canada.
By the way I’m not Syrian, but well spotted for the name. I actually chose it as it’s the name of a container ship that I’m familiar with, which in turn is named after the city of Tartous, in Syria.
Does anyone notice the eerie resembalance between these “attacks” and the story in Tom Clancey’s Sum of All Fears? And I mean the book, not the B grade, “Don’t piss off the terrorists” rewrite in the movie.
It’s also amazing how this little run down the Black Sea puts Russia on the ostensible position to be able to aid Iran through direct border contact with Turkey. This would allow a Russian-Iranian alliance to completely pinch off all current and potential allied routes for land/sea resupply to Iraq.
That was hitlers theory, yes. But it is that countries right to defend thier borders. This is a power grab by russia. nothing less. Here comes the old USSR under a different name!!!
This may explain Antaradus and several other propoganda spreaders on the comment sections since this war begain.
I worked with a Georgian infantry battalion in Iraq in 2005 and I do think we owe them for their willingness to support/stand by us as one of the few members of our coalition in Iraq. What kind of message does it send when we ask for and accept military assistance from a fledging nation/democracy, but then don’t have their back.
Spare me the moral equivalence B.S., too. Georgian troops were putting their lives on the line and standing shoulder to shoulder with us against insurgents who were murdering whole families in Baqubah. That counts for quite a lot in my book.
Does this look like a military target Antaradus? Note it is out of the area being illegaly occupied by russian troops.
I take exception to that. You may disagree with my opinion but that’s no reason to call me a “propaganda spreader”.
See-Dubya’s very first sentence says that America needs to take up for her allies. In this case, I disagree. The only reason Georgia wants to be our ally is because it wants control of these two territories, and has done ever since the break-up of the USSR. I don’t think the U.S. should sacrifice American lives for this. Georgia is clearly trying to manipulate us and has had this on its mind for a long time. Do you really think they sent troops to Iraq out of the goodness of their own heart?
I’m not saying Russia is right. What I’m saying is, this is not a war we should get involved in. It’s not worth it.
Georgia has been planning to be invaded for a long time? Please. If that isn’t propoganda, nothing is. Tell you masters that you have been busted.
That is what you have been saying all day.
Yeah, Russia has now gone too far. Until late yesterday, their actions had the appearance of a response to an assault on Russian citizens and a civilian city. . and seemed primarily targeted on the Georgian military effort.
However, expanding their response to include hitting Georgian towns and Georgian civilians goes well beyond a proportionate response.
My first hope is, that the Russians will respond positively to Georgia’s offering of the olive branch. . .because I have serious doubts about our ability to assist Georgia militarily without massively expanding the conflict.
So what do you conservatives propose to do about Georgia besides trashing Obama?
First off, Bush should have immeadiately left Beijing to signal that the U.S. took this situation very seriously and kept the Russians guessing about our response. Instead, he mugged for the cameras with the athletes, I’m sure that struck fear in the heart of Putin. This is the Katrina of foreign policy. Clearly, McCain or Obama would have done a better job here, but of course that’s not saying much.
– Antaradus
Don’t worry, any questioning or attempt at critical thought w/r/t this issue is ’spreading propaganda’ according to certain poster(s) here. . .so take it as a compliment, not an insult.
Show me where I’ve been saying that. And if Georgia had been planning to get invaded, they couldn’t have chosen a better way of doing so than shelling South Ossetia (what did they expect? That Russia wouldn’t invade?).
My tax dollars are not there to solve Georgian and Russian territorial disputes.
Also, we don’t “owe” any country anything, however friendly or courageous their inhabitants. The way I look at it is, what do have to gain from getting involved, and what to have to lose. We’d gain little, and lose lives and money (oh, and open a third front).
Antaradus: “Not if the inhabitants want to be independent or join another country.”
Please! Russia is the puppet master, manipulating these two little countries and the inhabitants thereof.
“show me where I ‘ve been saying that” is directed at #49
If this link is correct They are already inside georgias part of georgia.
Antaradus: here you go.
Yashmak : when you repeat the russian propoganda line for line then I will call you a propogandist. Don’t like it? tough.
Sonofdy, that’s not defending Russia, it’s defending South Ossetia. They don’t want to be part of Georgia, and I support that principle, like in 1776.
Anyway, what do you propose? To send troops into the Caucausus? Quickly finish the missile defence shield and bomb Russian cities, safe in the knowledge that they will be powerless to nuke us? Send our soldiers marching into Russia (and make sure that we get it all done before winter sets in, as history has shown).
It is not worth getting involved. It’s a border dispute between two countries and we’d gain absolutely nothing from it.
Yashmak, Antaradus,
I see you are both strong military history majors with a strong understanding of international relations as executed from the
westeast.You two have no clue about the situation and what it portends to the west as a whole. I will not help you with the answer but you should do some studying on the subject and after you finish your paper, post it so we can grade it.
Please feel free to move very far to the east. Or if you are as geographically challenged as you are historically you can go west but stop about half way around the world.
Why does America breed these people?
As I understand the facts, Georgia seceded from Russia and took South Ossetia with it. South Ossetia wants to secede from Georgia and invited Russian troops in to help. Georgia, on the eve of the Olympics, attacked South Ossetia (and its Russian troops), and Russia has responded with overwhelming force. So now Georgia is questioning the USA’s commitment to “freedom”?
Russia’s response is heavy handed. However, Georgia popped Russia in the nose and is trying the old “Let’s you and him fight” scenario with the USA.
Yeah right. Not buying it. What would I do? I would admit georgia into NATO today. The UN will ignore russias illegal war of agression into georgia so we have use different tactics. I suppose you support russias invasion of the rest of georgia as well? Will you support thier illegal occupation of georgian soil? Yes because you already do.
sonofdy, thanks for the excellent links. And I agree with you – we have a couple of people on here spreading Russian propaganda.
I doubt they are americans.
If anyone is interested in the goings on; here is a live link to an english stream of the latest happenings. Be aware though, it is the Russian propaganda machine at it’s finest.
Little Ma: Interestingly enough, both thier tags link them to muslim countries. One is syria, the other turkish. Interesting eh?
Here is another unsettling thought. Russia and the United States have competed through proxies because direct confrontation is too dangerous.
If the Russians misjudge our determination, and manage to neutralize Europe, cut our access to Afghanistan, or deny us oil, they may force us into a corner where our only option is nuclear weapons. Then, it will be game over.
expat – if our taxes go towards resolving Georgia’s border problems, then maybe yes, I should consider moving (south – to the Cayman Islands, where the IRS can’t get me).
You should vote for Obama, I’m sure he’ll find a way of taxing you for similar schemes – maybe pay for Guyana and Suriname to resolve their own territorial dispute (a piece of jungle), or help Bolivia get its seaboard back.
Do you think that Georgia will pay for our military?
sonofdy, I knew Antaradus was linked to Syria, but I couldn’t place Yashmak precisely. So now I know.
Just heard – the U.S. has begun flying the Georgian troops home. God be with them!
Posts like this assume that US military strength is a bottomless well to be drawn from at will. It’s not.
“Is Georgia in 2008 like Hungary in 1956?”
Yes. But we were stronger in 1956 than we are now, because we had less Communists (a.k.a “Democratic Socialists”) in our government then than we have now.
http://itooktheredpill.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/putin-cold-war-ii/
Now is the time to get someone (Isreal and maybe the UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN, THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY!) to take care of one little problem in the Middle East! (Iran Nuclear wannbe to join the World’s Nuclear Club)and take out in less than 48 hrs Iran’s nuclear facilities. Russian (Iran maybe ally) is tie up with their worn out military equipment left over from the cold war fighting a small little war with their next neighbor over who know what, killing alot innocent cilivians!(can not spell without spell checker!)
It would be a walk in the park with Iran missles, air force and their rubber boats!
Have Nice Day!
Isn’t that cute. Another lib do-gooder who wants to save the world.
1. We can’t afford to defend every nation on earth. The PNAC Fourth Reich is moribund.
2. NATO is a useless relic of the cold war.
3. Russia could have been a good friend but for Bush’s needless and provocative attempt to encircle it and his neurotic need to offend everyone on earth.
4. It’s a one way street. We bankrupt ourselves defending everyone with our 1000 bases scattered all over the earth, and they do nothing for us in return. As a matter of fact, they resent our presence.
5. George Washington was wise to promulgate avoiding foreign entanglements. George Bush and the neocons, on the other hand, are stupid and inflexible ideologues.
No I certainly don’t support that. You can call me a pro-Russian propagandist all you like, I don’t even like Russia.
My point is, and I’m going to give up after this as I wan’t be able to make it clearer, that we (the U.S.) do not have an obligation to Georgia (which is what See-Dubya is discussing, above). It is not our role to help Georgia get its territories under control, particularly as the inhabitants of those countries don’t want to be part of Georgia. Get someone else to do it, for once.
As for “linked to Syria”, the explanation for my username is several posts above.
I agree. Now consider that Russia is an observer of the 57 member state Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), whose flag contains the words “Allahu Akbar”. Ever stop to consider that maybe Russia encourages Jihadist attacks against US interests?
How shocking would it be to find a link between Russia and the 9/11 hijackers?
So the times is spreading Russian propaganda too?
The fighting was started by Georgia, the only thing that can be discussed is that Russias reaction to it is excessive.
Antaradus,
Good job addressing the geopolitical reasons for aiding Georgia in a time of need. In case you missed the finally reported news that Putin is after the Pipelines from the Caspian Sea, east of Georgia, to Turkey, west of Georgia then you missed part of it. You also missed the part about Russia no longer produces as much oil and gas as it did before Putin Nationalized Gazprom. He got rid of those who know how to make it work and needs more. Instead of getting things out of government hands and back into business hands he attacks Georgia to gain control of that pipeline. It provides one percent of all oil to western europe. In case that seems small, it is not.
As far as ossetia goes, Putin has been displacing the ethic Georgians for years. Separatists have been pushing the Georgians out since the independence. Putin is not only doing this in Georgia he is working in the Ukraine. Both countries supported us in A-stan and Iraq. They know what totalitarianism is and are willing to fight to stop it.
I suggest you start moving west or east and forget about south. Typical lib you have to make sure your comforts are taken care of before others. Yours are more important.
I did not want to get into this, you screwed up your assignment and get an F.
Do some research and then come back. Your total ignorance in all matters outside of your local town shows.
Although comments from Senators McCain and Obama do provide some entertainment value, the crisis in Georgia is one that President Bush will deal with. The obvious choice is to demand immediate cessation of all hostilities. However, are US forces truly prepared to begin on a new front? Against our favorite cold war rival? It will be interesting to see the reaction of our new NATO buddies from the former East Bloc, especially Poland and the Baltic countries. Should the countries of the former East Bloc finally throw their weight eastward toward Moscow instead of concentrating westward with an occassional glance over their shoulders, ole Vlad, Serge, and Dmitri may be faced with more than they are willing to deal with. Can anyone provide some insight on the reactions of our new NATO allies?
Live in the real world expat. Or get into your shiny suit of armor and go and help the oppressed around the world (now that’s typical lib). I’m sure the Georgians will be happy to see you galloping in to save them. As long as it’s not on my tax dollars.
So 1 per cent is a lot, is it? So how much would the remaining 99 per cent represent? A whole lot more, so that’s good news. 1 per cent is certainly not worth trudging around in a Russian winter for.
One more thing A,
When the invaders into the US come to push you out we will not assist you because they have as much right to take over your piece of America as you do to hold it.
Just following your logic. As hard as that is.
You still get an F for your assignment. You refuse to see beyond your preconcieved notions of how the world should be, as opposed to how it is.
Start educating yourself and then come back. You don’t engage in discussion, you emote. Emoting is good in some circumstances but not in this case.
Google or anyother search engine could help you. Maybe not.
I gave up the White Knight routine in favor of realistically assessing the geopolitical situation and making decisions based on sound assessments.
You should try it. After you take off the rose colored glasses.
For the nth freaking time, this war is in freaking GEORGIA, not russia. Not one inch of it is being fought anywhere but GEORGIAN soil. Look at a damn map.
expat – if that happens (and it’s happening right now, on our southern border, but that’s another issue), I’m sure our troops beseiging Moscow in the middle of winter will take confort in that, as they’re tied up, other nations will offer us help just like we’ve always done. Except, no-one will. We’re the only nation that sends its troops in large numbers, spend trillions of dollars… and of course we get reliable, devoted allies in return.
Let’s go and save Georgia, I’m sure our sacrifice will be really worth it. Our troops must be spread as thinly as possible for maximum effect.
That’s OK then , it will be a walk in the park.
– sonofdy
Yashmak is a fraternity nickname from college, the name of a cocktail picked at random from a bartender’s guide to making drinks.
I already explained that once, in the last topic on this conflict. That you ignore that, and try to paint me as having links to islamism is a smear, plain and simple.
I’d tell you to look it up, but since I already explained it once, and you ignored it then, I’m sure you won’t. You’ll just keep smearing anyone with an opinion different than yours.
I am an Eagle Scout, a mechanical engineer who works for an aerospace subcontractor building parts for Northrop Grumman aircraft (as well as for other commercial aircraft). . .that’s right, I make spares for the aircraft that defend this nation. For you to question not just my intelligence and my patriotism, but my nationality is abusive in the extreme.
Just this morning, I posted on this very thread that I find Russia’s continuing aggression to be unacceptable. But that’s not enough for you, is it, sonofdy? I have to blindly jump on the “send in the troops” bandwagon, suggesting that we commit ourselves to a conflict we have few if any military resources to commit to, that will undoubtedly expand the conflict requiring even MORE military resources we don’t have to commit. . .all for a conflict where BOTH sides are in the wrong.
Still, it’s good to see that there are other more reasonable folks here who are asking the questions we ALL should be asking.
– expat
I don’t see any indication your understanding of the situation is any better.
All I hear out of you is “My tax dollars this…..My tax dollars that” Oh freaking Wahh! MY tax dollars get spent on the most useless of things by the freaking pork spending from congress. I’d rather MY tax dollars go to something more helpful like helping the Georgians to be honest. And I’d gladly pack my $**^ and head over there and fight beside the same soldiers that have fought and bled alongside OUR soldiers in Iraq. And I’ll do it all on MY tax dollars!
Antaradus: You were the one claiming we would be suffering through a russian winter while fighting for moscow, which is no where near Georgia, which btw doesn’t have the famous russian winters.
yashmak. If you say so, eyes rolling.
Sonofdy,
This one is thick isn’t it? What is with the Moscow screeds. You put it succinctly when you told A to get a map. I admit it does get cold there, Georgia, now and again.
A old buddy,
I have not at any time committed to sending in troops. We have other capabilities that we can utilize to assist the indigenous forces in Georgia. I won’t get into specifics so you cannot spill the beans to the NYT. Do you know what is going on? Stop emoting, now!
Do your research, see what is happening in the region and what has happened and then come back to us. As for your tax dollars, I would spend them on this in a minute if I could get you and yours to stop spending mine on “Christ in Piss” and other disgusting things.
And yes the sacrifice will be worth it. By the way, is there any chance that you could be called to go? I thought not.
There are many misconceptions here. Russia is not fighting for South Ossetian independence. They want it back for themselves. And there is actually a minority that are pro-Russian that have been doing terrorist activities for decades.
Russia has been using the autonomous regions in Georgia to their own advantage to get critical claims in the Black Sea.
However, there is a damn good chance I could be called up. Army reservist here.
Yash old boy,
First off, good for you for working in the military industrial complex. I like the products coming out of Northrup and the rest.
Actually I do have a very good understanding of what is going on. I have studied the region and made different plans for different contingencies. There is not enough time or space on here to educate you and A. I wish that I could, it would make things easier.
I have not seen anyone call for sending in the troops. I said to support the indigenous soldiers. That we can do by assisting them with hardware and systems that they don’t possess. You work for Northrup so you should know that we can have air superiority in probably 96 hours. I will leave it at that. Too much info so far.
sonofdy,
Me too. I was supposed to go there but for some reason I am on hold.
A and Y,
We are not warmongers before you go there. It is our job and we will do it. We better than anyone else know the results of military action as we have both been deployed and seen the elephant.
However, we also have an idea of how unjust it is to place a people back under at totalitarian regime after they have tasted freedom. Think about it why don’t you?
gotta run,
sonofdy, keep up the good work.
expat, The sandbox? I was supposed to go last june, but the deployment got cancelled. We are on the top of the list and have been since last june, if you know what I mean.