Saddle up: Saddleback Forum open thread; Obama on abortion: “Above my pay grade,” attacks Clarence Thomas
For those of you watching the Rick Warren/Obama/McCain show tonight, here’s your open thread.
Watch online here.
Wake me up if anything interesting happens.
Like I said before, I’m not holding my breath…
***
Obama on abortion: It’s “above his pay grade.” What the…
Obama on which Supreme Court justice he wouldn’t have nominated: Clarence Thomas.
Disturbingly, commenters note, the Saddleback audience cheered.
RACIST!
(Update): Allah’s got the near-gaffetastic video of Obama’s Thomas remarks.
Mark Levin: “On Obama’s best day he can’t hold a candle to Thomas’s intelligence.”
***
McCain on when babies are entitled to human rights: “At the moment of conception…this presidency will have pro-life policies.”
Define marriage: “A union between a man and a woman. One man and one woman.”
Warren asks about California marriage preservation proposition and Calif. Supreme Court. “California Supreme Court was wrong.”
See what others have said
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I haven’t read the comments…i did stay up to watch this, and I’m sure this has been reiterated: obummer was an incoherent, stammering, fool. He never answered one question directly. Political double speak the entire hour. Another empty bathing suit.
Where’s LGM and Rusty?
I went to Osama’s website a couple of months ago after he announced that Jesus was not the only way to Heaven and Obama did not know, as a Christian, if he would go to Heaven. I asked how the Senator dealt with John 14:6. About three days later I got a rather trite email back from the Osama camp telling me Osama has always demonstrated his faith and gave me a link. The link was to a political speech Osama made a couple of years ago with very little mention of Jesus.
In all fairness, I also went to the McCain website the same day and asked the same question. I have yet to hear back from the McCain camp.
There is no paygrade above the one he is seeking.
The comments about lies taking time to tell but the truth comes fast were spoton.
George W. Bush said the same thing. I’m pretty sure McCain believes the same also.
I didn’t see the discussion, but I heard parts of it later. This was a dress rehearsal for the fall debates. McCain can think better on his feet than Obama, and what he says is simple and direct, the kind of stuff that fits well into short political campaigns.
I’m not surprised the McCain campaign did not answer the question when Obama’s did. His campaign has worked harder to use the internet.
One wonders how many delegates fantasize about Hillary’s snatching the candidacy from Obama at the convention.
lgm doesn’t have a firm belief system… He needs time to prepare a response.
Hmmm: Just like Obama
I think lgm and Rusty are too embarrassed to comment on this. They’re probably reading through HuffPo comments right now, trying to convince themselves that Obama wasn’t totally outclassed. Either that, or they’re just going to pretend it never happened, just like all the other Obama gaffes that never happened.
BO: I am pro-choice but not pro abortion
JM: Life begins at conception
BO: US Govt should care more for the world and quoted scripture
JM: US Govt should encourage more volunteerism
BO: Confront evil with humility
JM: Defeat evil and go to the gates of hell to do it
BO looked tired and his eyes were downcast in a defeated way. JM looked geniunely exited to be there and had more conviction in his answer.
Who do you want to lead America?
Does BO ever say anything without qualifying or quantizing his words? I just want a direct response from a candidate.
jbh45 What exactly do those responses of BO mean?
I appreciate all of the comments as I was unable to view the Obamanation’s fatigue after his Hawaii trip last night (why is he always “tired” and messing up?? Really instills confidence as a leader).
New bumper sticker for McCain:
No decision is above my pay grade
Mark Hemingway (Corner National Review) says Obama’s abortion answer was “craptacular.” That has a nice ring to it.
Yes JBH, and “confront” was not one of the four choices, either. When you have so many constituencies with competiting priorities, you have to walk a tightrope every time you open your mouth.
Frank Rich is already eating his words from this morning’s op-ed, IMHO.
BSR
Familyman,
If I have to interpret for you, then you missed the point.
Listening to the KERA (public/government)radio. The conclusion sounded like: Decisive vs. Compassionate.
Anyone want to guess which is which?
Looks like a McBama ’08.
Does anyone have the ratings for the Cable News Networks last night? I looked on Insidecablenews and there is one post about this event. I have to think a lot of people were watching last night. Weird that Spud only put up one post about it and there has been no commenting?
http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/press-releases-81508/
TMoney
You must have a strong stomach to listen to NPR.
I am almost sorry I missed this exchange, not that I could have stomached having to listen to the Obamessiah. But from the many comments it appeared ‘the grumpy old man” wiped the floor clean with him. Just think what a town hall meeting with no preapproved questions would do to the “empty suit’s” credibility. Some of his disciples just might wake up and wonder what this guy is spouting causing many of their heads to explode once their world view is shattered.
Boomer, it was Little Big Horn.
No matter how they try and spin this We the People saw it with our own eyes and heard it with our own ears. and my bet the polls will show this soon, as far as polls go.
I a truly amazed that people can’t see through BO’s careful responses. It’s obvious he has no core beliefs He can’t let people know what he truly thinks.
Hillary (ew) was right She would have done better against McCain.
lol, le opps Dems. lmao
My only fear is people got so bored with Obama’s constant dribble and dancing around the questions, that they turned the TV off before McCain took the stage.
Ah…. I finally got back on!
McCain kicked bupp cheeps last night…
and Obama’s lame answer about abortion cracks me up.
After last nights performance by Barak, Hillary is now working on an acceptance speech, just in case.
#594 nero said:
how about Cynthia McKinney too?
Ouch
That would have put them over the limit of dopes on the stage.
Odimbo got smoked.
Just returned from browsing the comments at HuffPo. Typical consensus from the Libs: “If our guy loses, it’s because the other side cheated”.
Still bereft of any ideas, they will lose in the debate forum every time.
My comments are probably as boring as NObama was last night but I just have to say that I am so happy I got to see McCain last night! He rocked and I’m shocked! Only changed channels (to check olympics) during commercials. I’ve never seen him as sharp, animated or personable. Also panning to Cindy in audience – so proud of her husband. I’ve been lukewarm about him but now am encouraged. I hope others will be too. NOBama, on the other hand was ‘same ole same ole’ boring. After the first few questions, I left the set..
I thought I had heard last week that Warren was really putting on the praise for NObama. Warren’s body language proved it, moving toward NObama while he spoke and sitting upright/to back most of the time with McCain. Toward the end of McCain’s interview though, Warren was looking like he ‘got it’. Again, maybe others will too.
I thought this was the best “debate” system I’ve seen in years. I learned more about both candidates last night than in the last nine months.
Obama – hesitant, hedging, no core beliefs, afraid of being disliked.
McCain – confident, mature, grounded in his values.
I was hesitant about voting for McCain, since he has done some things I strongly dissagree with, But he won my vote last night. He may not be perfect but I think he can be trust to do the right thing (most of the time).
Familyman #619,
I understand your point, but looking at the polls it seems that the “on the fence” voters are beginning to lose patience with BO’s special interest answers.
JM shows more conviction. He has less to lose to speak to his conservative base. On the other hand, BO’s base is so extreme it repells voters. He dances a fine line and basically says nothing.
Last night just enforced BO’s strategy as politics as usual…no change. Just double-speak.
Last night’s forum was outstanding! The qustions were straight forward and did not leave wiggle room. McCains answers were honest and truthful, where Obama’s were evasive and decieving. I would love to see a couple more in this format,perhaps one by an economist, and one on the constitution.
Great idea. It’s interesting though, on a previous post so many of us were not trusting of this format (me included). Now that I see how it was done (if really a ‘cone of silence’), I think it’s the way to go.
Watching the “debate” and reading the comments this morning it seems to me that Republicans, Conservatives, alike saw that McCain is the best we have right now. Independents and moderates saw what they wanted and should be happy with most of what he said. What is clear is that Obambi is the worst we could have right now.
Agreed. the forum works well. I am not a fan of Rick Warren, but he did this well. Kept the questions coming, moved it along at a good pace.
As far as OC having a conservative slant. Uh, I would disagree. It has a conservative past, but really not that conservative anymore. The cheers in agreement over BO’s comment about Justice Thomas just enforces the level of liberalism in the OC these days.
One of the best hoots of the night was when Warren got ready to ask BO the next question and requested he leave off his “stump speech”. THAT was a classic!
After BO’s first couple of questions, my daughter and I decided a bell was needed. So after a couple of minutes of his strung out answers, BING!
But we decided his strung out answers turned out to be a good thing. He talked his way into the tank!
His ummmmm’s and uhhhhhh’s are typical of a person who plays mind chess. Always calculating five moves ahead and trying to give answers that satisfies everyone. In other words, just platitudes, no convictions.
I’m sure BO was reading Warren’s books while on vacation and cramming for his test. Didn’t do him much good though. I think most of those questions came from the voters.
The most interesting, was his response to the “evil” question. You NEVER negotiate with evil without opening yourself to destruction.
This forum makes it easier for me to vote for McCain. Although, the immigration thing gives me pause, I think if we stand together on this issue, we can accomplish what we did the last time, and put the skids on it.
Also, those of you who taped this, go forward to the end when BO and Warren stood up to walk around the table. Did I detect a scowl on BO’s face? Just a quick flash of one?
I’ve been reading some of the comments over at DKos. There are a few people over there who realize that Obama got his butt kicked, but most are doing mental gymnastics to convince themselves that Obama won by being more “thoughtful” or something.
I like this idea. But instead of giving him minutes before the bell, how about he gets the bell after his third, “uhhhh”? Now THAT would be a short answer.
geeeze just hit him over the head with the bell.
I liked this forum. I think it brought out the most from the candidates.
And like a lot of other poseters, I too have been on the fence about voting for McCain. After last night I think I won’t need the clothes pin when I vote.
Interesting idea. It would have been funnier than having the wife yelling “Get off the Stump Speech”. Full disclosure here, we didn’t watch Obama together. My wife watched him alone. She joined me for the McCain portion. When I asked her if she did the same for Obama, she said he never seemed to get around to it. Just about that time McCain awnsered the aborion question and I started hooting and hollering…YES! And that’s why my wife didn’t sit with me for Obama. I had a few choice comments that always seems to offend her. Oh well, at least in the end we agreed McCain cleaned Obama’s clock.
Denver is going to be quite interesting. Going to get some popcorn and have a few cold ones on hand for the main event.
I went in to this Saddleback forum thinking that McCain would get his butt handed to him by Obama due to the fact of Obama’s speaking style. I could have never been more wrong.
When my brother, a Obama/Democrat supporter,( sorry, union thingy) called this morning and gushed about how well McCain spoke, I was taken back. We have an unwritten rule to never discuss politics due to our opposite views. I am hopeful that others will also start to come away from the dark side.
Obama showed himself to be a pseudo-intellectual who always tries to give “nuanced” answers instead of directly answering the question.
He’d make a great President – of some effete socialist Euroweenie country. He could turn any one of them into a true socialist hell in just one term, no doubt. But not the USA!
OH and on the point of Obama’s abortion answer…he nevered answered the question, part of which included “have you ever voted to decrease abortions?”
Gueas his pay grade wasn’t high enough yet.
jbh45 (post #634)-
Agreed- I’m from OC- born and raised- and I remember when pretty much the whole county was a conservative bastion (I’m 40 YO). It still is mostly conservative in the southern parts, and the county as a whole can be counted on to vote for the Republican in general elections. I remember years ago liberals living in OC would often say they ‘live behind the Orange Curtain’. Whatever…
Geez, can’t spell and can’t read. Meant to add that the abortion questions to both candidate were different. McCain didn’t get the one about abortion voting.
Anyone else notice that?
Do you really think after this trouncing Obama’s going to agree to anything that’s not scripted in the future?
Methinks not. He’ll be the first president to have a teleprompter surgically implanted in his body…
I’ve noticed how Barack Obama reminds me of an NKVD Chief of Police under Stalin in terms of facial appearance
I saw another picture of Yezov that looked so much like Obama from the side I almost jumped out of my chair in my Russian history class..the only difference perhaps is that Obama is a shade darker in skin tone in Black and White photos.
I didn’t read through all these 680+ comments but did it bother anyone else that Obama did not mention Islamist terrorism at all in his definition of evil? His first comments was Darfur. No surprise, because all he really cares about is black Africa. Plus he mentioned violence to children and as we know, his and MO’s other priority is how anything affects THEIR kids.
In other forums people are saying that it appears Barry Obama has added grey highlights to his hair. To make him more presidential, I assume.
Did anyone else notice this? Either he already had some grey and used dye to make him more youthful, or he is now wanting to look older and wiser (uh,uh, um). Perhaps he should invest in debating skills and speech therapy instead.
He could come out dressed in as George Washington and still not look Presidential.
My pick for host of a forum on the economy would be Walter Williams, Prof. of Economics at George Mason Univ. and on the Constitution, Rebecca L. Brown, prof. of law at Vanderbilt Univ. Add these two to the Saddleback forum and We the People might be able to make better choices in our elections.
On August 17th, 2008 at 1:03 pm, madchef said: <em “My pick for host of a forum on the economy would be … We the People might be able to make better choices in our elections.”
True but only if the forum(s) were held before the primaries…
brooklyn red #651
True but only if the forum(s) were held before the primaries…
I didn’t think of that, if that was the case this would be an election between Duncan Hunter and Bill Richardson maybe.
madchef, maybe so. But one thing for sure we the people didn’t have much to with the choice of the R candidate & I still think the D will be Hillary, but what do I know.
MikeOK, great post…most thoughtful and rational analysis in this thread.
Obama did pretty well, but McCain was exceptional. He’s at his best in these sorts of settings. Good to see some of the McCain naysayers around here get on board the bandwagon.
With all due respect dakine, I’m not sure anyone got on a “bandwagon” as much as we are just happy to see McCain start saying things that actually align with real Conservative values.. It’s been a while coming quite frankly. Better late than never I suppose.
~Dan Lee
Dan, with respect to you as well, Sen. McCain has been saying this stuff all along for those inclined to listen.
All due respect to dakine and Dan,
Have his senate votes and sponsored bills been conservative?
To many folks put too much against McCain on his Immmigration issues, we can defeat that other ways. The man came out as a leader last night hands down winner over who should be our next President. Obama’s maybe ready to lead a rose Parade, not the U.S.A..
I agree this was the best format I have seen where we can truly get a view of the candidate’s thoughts and positions.
In the debate process, I often find a question is asked, and then not asked of the opponent. Makes it difficult to compare when both are not subjected to the same questions.
McCain was great.
Obama was himself – weak!
Not just immigration, but free speech, global warming, and taxes a few years back.
McCain is heads and tails above Obama, but election year speech should not be taken as proof of anything.
Well said, AJ. Ditto.
aj—agree with all you said above #658.
People should keep in mind that President Bush was pro-illegal immigration as well. I voted for Bush twice because he was the better candidate to protect my family from the threat of terrorism…which is why I will be voting for McCain in November.
I never thought, a year ago, that I would be saying I would vote for McCain. I hope and pray he will pick a good VP.
McCain’s “problem” — if you see it as a problem, and some (including MM) do — is that he says what he honestly believes. That’s a sure way to irritate some of the people some of the time.
But is shows a strength of character and confidence in one’s own abilities that Osama Obama, he of the calculated non-answer, the “I’ve always said” lie and the stunning flip-flops, will never understand or match.
That is why I’m voting for McCain. I think if the average voter looked at the two candidates rationally, it’d be a 50-0 landslide for McCain.
Okay, 49-1. I forget that Massachusetts is still a state.
Yes, “Climate Change” is a
joke/scamissue but I just roll my eyes at that one, for now.Well if the general viewing public think Obama came off weak, and we do, and as a result McCain looks to be reasonably the clear winner in November because of Obama’s performance, just what do you think the leadership of the DNC is thinking and what are the Clinton’s thinking?
If Obama is perceived to be a sure loser, the DNC convention will be an interesting battle.
My greatest hope is that Obama will choose Kerry as VP. Would love that couple against McCain and ?
At least Edwards is out now for Attorney General or SCOTUS. Thank God.
Oh, and I look forward,too, to the DNC and their protestors. A freak show coming soon to Denver that won’t be helping their cause.
I just love these guys who keep taking a shot at McCain from the “he’s not conservative enough” platform. Like it or not we only have 2 practical choices for the next President. It will be the candidate from either the Democratic Party OR the Republican Party. You can make all the fuss you want about if McCain is what you do or do not want. Just what then is the alternative? Stay home and let the Democratic candidate win? THAT’LL teach them Republicans.
Regardless of how conservative you think the Republican candidate is or is not, casting an overwhelming vote for the candidate who is NOT the liberal socialist candidate is essential at this juncture of our country. This is a critical election this year. It will have a huge impact on our country for many many years.
Don’t know, but I sure would like to have been a fly on the wall a the Clintons home.
lmao.
“How did I lose to this Idiot”??!!
and she probably kicked a few things also….
I’m not sure my ears could take the language either.
Pointing out things that we disagree with about McCain is not some big sin. He was and is not my first choice for potus, but he will get my vote. We, as Americans, do not have to shut up and take what is given to us. That would be the Dems position. Nobody is above correction and/or criticism.
All elections are critical and have huge impacts on our country.
He was not and is not
Correction
I’m thinking the conversation needs to be taking place in places other than the Clinton’s home. Has to be the DNC leadership who puts Clinton back into play for President. She and Bill can’t in anyway appear to be involved. She has to framed as the hero, the “come to the rescue” candidate. She can’t get there IF she is also the one putting herself back into play.
I just got a bizarre email forward about McCain plagiarizing that Christmas Eve story. Has anyone else heard this crap?
like someone said earlier… the DNC probably had the look on their faces of just losing the Superbowl last night.
and they did imho.
What was I thinking BrianNY? Barr believes in Low taxes, small gov’t, and personal responsibility. Things Republicans use to believe in before they became RINOs like you. Obama and McCain both believe in amnesty, big gov’t, and policing the world.
jsmiddleton4, re: “just what do you think the leadership of the DNC is thinking and what are the Clinton’s thinking? ”
The DNC & the Clinton’s are thinking the same as ever… power. Pure unadulterated, absolute power, how to get it & how to keep it. This whole Obama thing was never more than a way to separate Soros & his ilk from their money. It will be Hillary talking from both sides of her mouth who gets the nomination.
Didn’t say it was. The point is it doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that McCain is NOT a socialist liberal leftist Democrat. And that is all that matters. Pointing out whether he is or is not conservative “enough” is irrelevant.
People who think at this point pointing out McCain’s apparent weaknesses is no longer an issue. Its like when someone points out IF their team would have scored one more touchdown, they would have won. Ok, so? The games over and the score is what the score is.
This game is over. It is either you vote for someone who is NOT a socialist or you run the risk of allowing a socialist leftist liberal into the White House by not voting. As much as people want to make their vote mean this or that, this time its simple. You either act to keep the socialist mindset out of the White House or you don’t.
Just how purely conservative the Republican nominee is, is irrelevant. As long as he is convervative at all, which McCain is, than we have a contrast that we can support. Sorry but it is what it is.
Sure why not jsmiddleton, I mean there only principles we believe in. Then next time Republicans can keep getting more liberal because what the heck they’re still a little more conservative than the democrat. Send a msg and refuse to support a RINO.
Like I’ve said on more than one occasion – today’s liberal Democratic party is the party of deceit, and they don’t care what venue to use.
Good illustration of exactly what is at stake. Just what do you think the cost will be to all of us just so you can send YOUR message? I prefer not to have to send my money to the government just because YOU wanted to send a message to the Republican Party.
So the country goes socialist because YOU don’t think McCain is conservative enough? I sure hope you get a better sense of what this election is about, stop any idea that this is about you sending a message to anyone and instead do what’s best for all of us and keep a Democrat out of the White House.
Then go to work locally and get conservatives elected into your state and federal legislature.
Go ahead if you want and wizz away your vote on Barr and help Odopey.
The Boston Globe ran an article about the debate. So much nuanced spinning to try to suggest that OB was the winner.
But that Pay Grade quote is going to haunt OB for the rest of the campaign. In fact, I image JM is salivating at the thought of using it as a zinger in a televised debate.
As jsmiddleton4, stated, “So the country goes socialist because YOU don’t think McCain is conservative enough? ”
Sigh, Yes this is the big one… our freedom & our way of life do hang in the balance. As many problems as I see with supporting McCain, letting a democrat into the White house at this time reverses… no voids, everything that every patriot since the revolution has fought & died for. The mere fact that we as a free people have allowed it to come this far does not bode well for the future… for those of you who have children or grandchildren I hope you have the stomach to see them in chains.
Anyone catch Obimbo distilling the conservative position on abortion down to “they don’t care about cases involving the life of the mother”.
That cinches it. The Rethuglicans are Motherkillers!!!!
“Barack will not let you do nothing,,,he’s gonna make you work…he will demand you leave your homes” -MO
Between the hems & haws he meant that you’ll HOPE you have CHANGE left in
your pocket once he’s finished with you!
Over at Hot Air, McCain Cheated!!!!
I’m no expert, but anyone notice BO’s eyes? They appeared downcast and he looked as if he would occassionaly give only sideway glances to Warren. This is a sure sign of submission or guilt. A certain unwillingness to be candid. At other times in his campaign, I have noticed BO touch his forefinger to his cheek or nose. This is a sign of his own distrust with what he is saying.
JM was open, eyes focused straight to the audience and Warren. He spoke with conviction and his maverick style came through (the basic, “this is what I think and I don’t care how you feel about it).
I wonder which one would be better across a table from Putin? Just an observation….
How could he cheat on Odumbo’s answers???…..
lmao, Nonsense.
excuses excuses, I thought it was because Odopey was tired from being on vacation in Hawaii for a week?
lmao x 10
Rick Waren began by saying both men are patriots–you’ve got to be kidding me. What on earth is his definition of a patriot-a guy who won’t wear a flag pin,won’t put his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance –or say the pledge. I wonder what Warren thinks of Rev. Wright? Also Odumbo says if you make over $250k you will get a small tax increase–can you say BOHICA.
brooklyn….
One can hope that this year can be the last year that the creep to socialism is allowed. IF there can be a landslide for McCain and folks can back that up with getting conservatives elected into legislatures if only to make a clear statement that enough is enough.
Folks who will possibly withhold their vote from McCain because he is not conservative “enough” or to send some message to the RNC and if doing so allows Obama or Hilary to get elected, those folks will cost us as a country and individuals a tremendous cost. Too much in fact to justify their current explanations that its all about principle. It we were talking about one candidate who was moderate and one who was 100% conservative AND we were not talking about the risk we are taking by possibly allowing Obama or Hilary to win the White House, ok, principle yourself to death.
That is not the case. This is a serious election and us non-leftist, non-socialist, non-big government folks have simply got to get over themselves and turn out in droves and vote for the non-socialist non-leftist candidate. If folks who could vote for McCain stay home and enable Obama or Hilary to get elected, well then I’d say even as ugly as it may get, they deserve exactly what will unfold.
If people can’t vote for McCain for what he is, at least vote for him for what he isn’t. He isn’t Obama/Hilary.
Consider the source.
He quite misled that audience about gay marriage. He claimed he thought it was between a man and a woman, and people clapped. But what too many of them weren’t told is that he and Michelle O have been going around to homosexual groups and promising to get rid of the defense of marriage act. And pretty much Obama will do absolutely any and everything he can to legitimize gay marriage. Please, everyone needs to understand his real agenda on that issue!
Oh yes McCain cheated, he was listening to the big zero in order that he might formulate his position on the issues. Yep, McCain has for a long time gone around framing his candidacy on what his devoid of experience opponent says and does. That’s one thing that bugs me about McCain, his natural follower instincts. Oh I know that doesn’t look like what he is doing but let me assure you he is. Any average white person can see the coded messages within McCain’s campaign. This goes right along with what they were saying awhile back it seems McCain was irritating them by not using racist attacks so they came up with the idea that anytime now he’s going to start calling zero a @#$$%!. These people out Bolshevik the Bolsheviks. Don’t ask zero any direct questions he cant answer them without first consulting with the masses.
#648: Lindsay good point. I DID notice those grey temples, and thought “when did THIS happen? He didn’t have that before?” I never considered that he’d done that one purpose. Wow. McCain wiped the floor with Obama!
#648: Lindsay good point. I DID notice those grey temples, and thought “when did THIS happen? He didn’t have that before?” I never considered that he’d done that on purpose. Wow. McCain wiped the floor with Obama!
tgusa #693
Oh, you forgot to include in your post that 9/11 was an inside job, they really did discover Sasquawatch, and aliens live among us.
Exactly what I expected. Nothing new was learned.
Warren promoted himself, his books and his church. The contenders spit out stump speach rhetoric. McCain kept referring to “my friends”. Obama uncomfortably tried to tell us he is not a socialist liberal democrat while taking a pass on the abortion question. The MSM and Obama backers declared Obama the unquestioned winner.
Kalifornia, Oregon, Washington, NYC (which controls New York)
#503: Bravo your last paragraph. Spot. On.