The Mother of All Bailouts = The Death of Fiscal Conservatism
Scroll for updates…10:54am Eastern Bush speaking now…bailout will be “grease for the gears”… “we expect this money will eventually be paid back”…HA-HA-HA…
Bush Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson just wrapped up his press conference announcing the Mother of All Bailouts. He said a “bold” approach was needed to achieve “stability” in the market.
Let me translate that.
“Bold” = Massively massive, taxpayer-funded rescue.
“Stability” = Privatizing profits and socializing losses on a scale we have never seen before in our lifetimes.
I have had it with Pollyanna conservatives who continue to parrot the “fundamentals of the market are great!” line.
The fundamentals of the market suck. The fundamentals of capitalism have been sabotaged.
Yes, yes, crony Democrats are to blame for much of how we got here. You don’t need to recite all the talking points back to me. I’ve been writing about the Fannie/Freddie debacle for years.
But it is September 19, 2008. And this is a Republican White House presiding over the Mother of All Bailouts. Every step along the way since stimuluspalooza began last summer, we’ve heard that every bailout step was just a one-off. Each step was supposed to calm the markets. Each new government intervention and allocation of taxpayer dollars was supposed to achieve “stability.” Each new package of goodies rewarding irresponsible behavior and bad financial decisions was supposed to prevent new ones.
None did. And now, here we are.
This is your Bush legacy — not Pelosi’s, not Reid’s, not Obama’s: A ginormous bailout of every last, failing, panicked financial institution’s illiquid assets that may reach into the trillions — TRILLIONS – when all is said and done.
Reader John in Venice, CA e-mails: “Going forward there is no debate a conservative can win when pitted against a liberal wanting to spend money on social programs. What would the argument be against spending money on terrible social programs? Government money does not work? Conservatives who are supporting this welfare bailout are no different than Maxine Waters or Barbara Boxer. We have lost. Conservatism has absolutely no more moral high ground to speak from.”
Fiscal conservatism has been on life support for quite some time. Bush/Paulson pulled the plug permanently today.
***
I mentioned the other day that both presidential candidates from the Evil Party and the Stupid Party support bailing out the automakers next.
Here’s more:
The auto industry and Wall Street took center stage in the presidential race Wednesday when Republican John McCain, after touring a suburban Detroit auto plant, declared in his strongest language so far that he will fight for government loans to help the U.S. auto industry retool.
Democrat Barack Obama’s campaign retorted that he’s late to the game.
McCain made an unscheduled stop at General Motors Corp.’s Orion assembly plant in the morning before joining his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, for a town hall meeting in Grand Rapids.
He told a crowd of supporters in downtown Grand Rapids that the economy can be fixed.
“I reject the doom and gloom that says our nation is in decline, because our best days are ahead of us. We will restore America, we will restore this economy,” McCain said.
At the GM plant, McCain spoke to about 100 workers after a short tour.
“I’m here to send a message to Washington and Wall Street: We are not going to leave the workers here in Michigan hung out to dry while we give billions in taxpayer dollars to Wall Street,” McCain said. “It is time to get our auto industry back on its feet. It’s time for a new generation of cars and for loans to build the facilities that will make them.”
McCain’s support of the auto industry on Wednesday contrasts with his position last month when he visited the GM Tech Center in Warren and said he wasn’t inclined to support loans for the auto industry.
McCain, who also did not vote on the energy bill creating the loan program in December 2007, said then through his campaign that his proposals — a $5,000 tax credit for consumers to buy more efficient models and a $300-million prize for battery technology — would accomplish the same goals as the loan program.
Auto industry officials said they believed that without McCain’s support, the funding would get labeled a Democratic ploy. Michigan’s Republican lawmakers, especially U.S. Rep. Fred Upton, are credited with convincing McCain to back the loans.
Obama has backed up to $50 billion in loans for automakers.
***
Here’s Jim Pethokoukis’s take.
Hans Bader at OpenMarket.org: Trillion Dollar Bailout Will Lead to Future Bubbles. Read it all.
***
Update 10:54am Eastern: Bush speaking. He says the bailout will be “grease for the gears”…”we expect this money will eventually be paid back”…HA-HA-HA.
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To look at all the money they have from the jobs America has given away.
Evil politicians like McAmnesty and naive ones like the Obamasiah have screwed up this nation..
All I see is a government run amok, with total disregard for Constitutional law. Regardless of the President next year, the congress will continue to grab power and control until, one day, we will wake up and find the government controlling everything. The dems are looking to having 2/3rds control of the congress. Once that happens, they become veto-proof. I see that Obama wants to send “billions” to the U.N for world poverty, though “trillions” are supposed to bail out businesses. He going to have a lot of poverty here, if the congress continues to legally steal from us…the working person.
you must be a liberal because you are coming in from left field right now.
my point was government is the problem….always has been…it doesn’t matter who you think is in charge of it…it’s a cesspool and has been overstepping its role as outlined in the constituition for a very long time…and is setting us up from a catastrophic downfall.
history has shown that eveytime we bail some industry out of it self created problems-the problems get worse. Its time to get rid of the RINO’s. Its time to let business know there will NEVER again be a bail out. We come ever closer to socialism!
You want to fill in the void in that argument?
The only “good” news is that the way this is going, we will end up have to start the whole country over from scratch: it’s the getting there, to scratch, that is gonna seriously suck!
Why aren’t Bush and McCain defending themselves by trotting out the efforts they made years ago to avoid the disaster? In particular, for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Bush tried to put the brakes on in 2003 and McCain tried again in 2006. It’s all a matter of congressional record plus the NYT wrote an article about Bush’s attempt plus weasel Barney Frank’s response about ‘affordable housing’.
McCain might be labeled McAmnesty but he’s also McFiscalConservative when it comes to his legacy of trying to expose the turds in the democrat sandbox aka Congress.
MM has every right to be as angry as she is. Bush II is the greatest disaster to hit the Republicans since Hoover. Thanks to Bush’s unrelenting incompetence on just about every subject one can name, we (meaning any among us who still adhere to the free market) will never be free of the man. All we can hope for now is that President Obama will be even worse — giving new, hiterto unknown meanings to the word “hope.”
This is just great. The GOP is truly Democrap Lite. They, as a party, are a lost cause and are no longer worthy of the support of hard working patriots. Conservatives no longer fit into either party. I may vote for Palin/McCain (maybe), but will continue to refuse them financial support.
Has anyone heard a response from Palin yet?
I’d love to know what her thoughts are on these bailouts.
It’s sad to see a party stray itself away from itself so quickly. Less Regulation and freedom to let the market do as it may was your thing, now you’re turning into Conservative Democrats.
Welcome to the party.
LGM predictably equivocates, as usual:
Better pattern of corruption: Clintons – Raines – Johnson – Freddie Mac – Fannie Mae – and on and on
Moral: Deregulation works when Democrats aren’t actively sabotaging it, like Jim Johnson and Franklin Raines did with Fannie and Freddie!
What has screwed up this nation, is Congress allowing a private company,(the FED), to print, and control money.
Now, we are seeing the FED worry about the Global Market, not America. The bailouts are for the few who are full of greed. Interconnectability is the Global Market, and it is not a Nationalist group.
Could someone explain something to me, because apparently I don’t understand the first thing about how all this works.
I thought that…
1. The bank loans money to someone to buy a $200,000 house.
2. It turns out they can’t afford the payments.
3. The bank then owns the house, which is worth $200,000.
Why isn’t the bank just selling the house for $200,000 and getting its money back that way? I thought that was the system: if you default on your payments, the bank owns your home and they can sell it to someone else. You take the chance, not the bank – the bank either gets its money from you, or from selling the house.
I don’t even begin to understand how it ends up that the banks need to be saved, when they own the homes.
And as for the people who bought homes they couldn’t afford… I don’t get why they’re not just moving back into apartments. It isn’t like the choice is a. live in a home or b. live in a cardboard box.
I’m sure this looks like a stupid question, but I honestly don’t get it, and I’d like to know what I’m missing here.
are we sure we can’t live without GM or Ford? i have two import vehicles in a garage that has a US flag hanging outside of it, because as much as i’d like to buy American, Detroit can’t make a car i want to buy.
More like ..
1. The bank loans $220,000 to someone to buy/refi a $200,000 house.
2. It turns out they can’t afford the payments.
3. The bank then owns the house, which dropped in value to $160,000
4. The bank auctions the house for $80,000 and is out $140,000.
5. Bank runs to government to grab our money.
6. Bank officers take early retirement and move to some island with some of that money.
Repeat…
Lex Gabinia, and the rest is history.
Bank loans money, owns piece of paper.
To loan more money, bank sells piece of paper to someone like Fannie who bundles up lots of these pieces of paper and sells them to Lehman.
$200,000 house was actually sold for $600,000 to an illegal immigrant who makes minimum wage but qualified for a “liar’s loan” (The bank doesn’t care since they will sell the paper.)
Idiot who paid $600,000 for a $200,000 house thinking it will go to $800,000 and can’t make the payments in the meantime walks as do thousands of others.
So many houses are empty at such high prices there are no buyers.
$200,000 house Lehman valued at $600,000 when they bought the paper (and hope for $800,000) now begins to sink back to $200,00.
No one is paying Lehman since no one is paying the mortgage.
Lehman goes broke.
Something like that. Technically the deed holder owns the house, but it’s worth less, no one is making the payments and they run out of money.
Corrections welcome.
Is it really the death of fiscal Conservatism?
Or is it actually the rebirth?
After all, it was not fiscal Conservatism that got us in this mess in the first place. It was following the Democrats way of thinking and attempting to appease the Democrats in Congress and all that “Bi-Partisanship” crap that means oh so much to the MSM and candidates.
What will hopefully happen, is someone will let the beanbag drop for once, call this issue for what it is and actually institute fiscal Conservative ideas and programs.
So, is it it’s death? Or is it it’s rebirth?
I am going to pray for the latter.
The way it used to be:
Bank checks you out. You have to be able to afford house. You buy house and make the payments. The bank is happy, and when you have proven to be a good payer, the bank sells your mortgage to a happy Fannie. This was pre-Jamie (do not investigate Arab “pilots”) Gorelick and her ilk who suck huge paychecks out of Fannie and Freddie while they are imploding.
It’s the rebirth ….. if McCain gets elected. If Obama wins, it’ll be the wide open door to complete government takeover.
They had to do it, no matter how repulsive it is. Letting us spiral into depression would guarantee Obama’s win with overwhelming Democrat majorities in Congress, and it would therefore guarantee The End of America as we know it. Obama would have the People squarely behind him to terminate the American experiment.
Conservatism is not a suicidal ideology. It’s most defining characteristic is PRAGMATISM. What the people whining about this plan (yeah, you too, Michelle, with all due respect) are calling conservatism is really an extremist libertarianism.
Thanks, Daschounds and RetFireman. I get it now. I appreciate the explanation.
Some observations:
1. It doesn’t matter who gets elected, now. There isn’t much more damage Obama can do. Sure, we can move to socialized medicine and higher taxes. However, higher taxes are now guaranteed and substantial growth-shunting impacts of socialism were just introduced by a trillion dollar bail-out. Vote however you please, we are screwed either way on that front.
2. There seems to be a pervasive misunderstanding about money in this forum. Money gets its value from the agreement between the people in this country over its value. That value comes from outputs of each of our minds and our labor. There is no amount of financial system collapse that can ever stop us from producing valuable products and services as a nation of free people, we all just have to agree to settle on a new standard of value-exchange. The market manipulators can try to keep us under control, but they can’t stop free enterprise lest they point the muzzle of their guns at our heads. At which point, there will be blood.
3. We don’t have to accept this system. The system is just an agreement. Unfortunately, those who now control this agreement are a small band of ruthless raiders and looters who are making choices for us every day… choices that we willfully accept. This much is now out in the open, clear as day.
4. We don’t need a bail-out, we need a depression. People are asleep. There is absolutely no reason for this country to be slipping. There are no fundamental flaws in the working of this country – we have good infrastructure, hard-working people, the best university and technology education system in the world, a strong culture… particularly in our midsection. We can continue to build and to innovate, so long as we can stay organized and recognize the government and its fiat system for what they are – not real. But, the tree needs to be shaken.
5. Nations are made strong by people and their minds, not by paper
6. Working double time for the dollar just became a fools’ errand. The game is about manipulation, thievery, and deception – not value creation. We can work, and work, and work to sock away a small pile of paper. The manipulators can, with the stroke of a pen, decimate the sum of the fruits of our labor. This system cannot stand. Unfortunately, we can’t forget Bastille Day. Let this run its course to its logical end and there will be blood. Let us hope God has some mercy and the other nations of the world continue to carry our baggage. Otherwise, this could get ugly as one previous commenter already pointed out.
7. Don’t lose faith. Don’t put too much importance in this election. The only real power a government has over its people comes at the end of a gun, not in the paper it prints. Ponder that.
Whoa!
After that, I doubt there’s anything I can say about the rest of what you wrote that’ll make any sense to you. You are spoiled. I don’t mean that as an insult. It’s just your state of mind. If you can’t understand how much worse things could be, you understand nothing about anything.
On September 19th, 2008 at 7:23 pm, Roland said:
You are confusing libertarianism with conservatism, and conservatism with Republicanism. And the pragmatism you speak of is collectivism.
There is no such thing as a collectivist (socialist or communist or fascist) nation free of kleptocrat / tyrants who enrich themselves under the cloak of do-gooding.
Fannie and Freddie were government entities. The people who ran them were enriching themselves. To do that, they had to generate a massive housing bubble. It would eventually pop, but that’s just great for them. It just means a takeover of the entire mortgage industry, and more opportunities for kleptocracy.
Republican politicians are kleptocrats who understand that they have to keep the amount of State confiscation down just enough so they don’t kill the goose.
Have no illusions. They want those golden eggs.
Look at Denny Hastert. Supposedly an “aw-shucks” conservative. In reality a Republican scumbag who used earmarks to make himself rich on land deals in his home state.
A bastard kleptocrat scum.
Look at John McCain. He is not a kleptocrat, but he is not a conservative. Perhaps you could classify him as an anti-corruption moron. He thinks that this collectivist system can be free of corruption, and he’s just the one to clean it up.
Good luck on that.
Palin has conservative instincts. I am voting for McCain / Palin on the hopes that Palin’s instincts will not be smothered by her new mentor and when he dies, she will put our country back on the path to reversing its terrible slide into full-blown collectivism.
Key changes from “the way it used to be” to “the way it became”:
1) lending standards lowered
2) mortgages promoted to unreliable people
3) mortgages resold quicker, before stable payment history established
When were the changes made?
During the Communist Clinton administration:
Do you see how this all fits in to the program of the Communist Party USA?
For real. This is not just some “Red Scare”. This is a wake-up call to see how most of this country went to sleep when the Berlin wall came down. The Communist threat did not go away, it just laid dormant for a little while on the Russian front, while it picked up momentum on the Chinese front. The Chinese are intricately involved with the Clinton machine.
And now the Russians have returned and are intricately involved with the Obama machine. Can you say Zbigniew Brzezinski?
Vladimir Putin rose to power December 31, 1999, and (according to Alexander Litvinenko) Putin used bombings and other terrorism acts to come to power.
Putin wants to relieve Russia’s Lenin-Stalin days. His paternal grandfather, Spiridon Putin, had been Vladimir Lenin’s and Joseph Stalin’s personal cook. Putin is revising the history of Stalin:
Q: Didn’t Nancy Pelosi just visit Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki?
Flashback:
JUNE 11, 2008
Friends of Barack
The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy tried to sodomize America while she was sleeping.
But now America is waking up, and she’s pissed!
“Don’t lose faith”? True.
“Don’t put too much importance in this election”? False.
This election determines the future balance of the Supreme Court. If we loose the Ccongress and Presidency, we lose the Court, too, and then kiss the Constitution goodbye. We can, we must, and we will win the Presidency, the House, and enough of the Senate to filibuster. What we really need, though, is 50 Senators so that we can get conservative Judicial nominations out of the Judiciary committee and confirmed on the Senate floor.
should be: “If we lose the Congress…”
“MARK TO MARKET” ACCOUNTING EXCERBATED THE PROBLEM
This means that, not withstanding the irresponsible high risk loans that were being dealt like crack, corps. like Leman Bros. must report their assets based on current market value which reflects the depressed real estate values, even though they had not actually realized the losses with properties still in their inventory.
So, long story short, when corps. like Leman Bros. are forced to fail, others, perhaps even unfriendly foreign interests, may swoop in and buy at bargain basement prices, then in a couple of years or so will most likely get a huge return on investment when the market improves.
Now, I absolutely believe in increased accountability in the financial industry sector. I believe these people need to be licensed and held personally liable for pushing bad products on consumers, particularly without adequately informing them of the risk.
This means “personal responsibility” all around.
you must be a liberal because you are coming in from left field right now.
my point was government is the problem….always has been…it doesn’t matter who you think is in charge of it…it’s a cesspool and has been overstepping its role as outlined in the constituition for a very long time…and is setting us up from a catastrophic downfall.
And you sir must be a poor student of history. Do you think that 1929 was the only depression in Maerician history. A 100% capitalistic system has booms and busts. It is just the nature of the beast. The last 60 years has shown an amazing trend of economic expansion. It has enabled us to become the world’s superpower. this was enabled by the MIXING of socialism and Capitalism. Pure captialism is as bad as pure socialism. It matters not who is in charge. It was the special blend between socialism and capitalism that enabled this country to become the richest in the history of the world. Right now we need some socialism to continue that track record. and it is in the consitution. It is called the commerce clause. since the nations banks do cross state business the Congress and federal gov has a consitutional duty to regulate them.
On September 19th, 2008 at 5:00 pm, allrsn said:
history has shown that eveytime we bail some industry out of it self created problems-the problems get worse. Its time to get rid of the RINO’s. Its time to let business know there will NEVER again be a bail out. We come ever closer to socialism!
I wish people would study history. We bailed out Chrysler and the taxpayers made money off the deal, we bailed out the Savings and loans and the taxpayers made money off the deal. The taxpayers are getting 11.5% interest on that 85 billion loan to AIG plus 80% of the company. Iw ould call that a great deal. These CDO’s and bad MBS that the gov are going to buy from the banks will most likely end up making money for the gov. The gov can hold these assets for the life of the loans they do not have to keep capital against the asset. They don’t have to worry if some of them go bad. It places a price and makes ALL the other MBS’s liquid thereby enabling a market to form for them. Instead of the vaule going to zero there will be real property behind them and vaule. this is all a plus to the taxpayers. As far as the bailout if a depression comes most people on this board saying no to the bailout will be the first to request aid. A depression means 25-30% unemployment. do you think your job is safe? If you lose your job can you continue to make your payments with no income? what happens when your life savings disappear due to fear on Wall Street. Will you be one on the soup line or going hungery as farms lose their farms. A depression is very very very bad do you people get that. this isn’t a game. this will impact 10 100′s of millions of people. you think this bailout is to save some people on Wall Street. this bailout is to save you the avg citizen from financial ruin. you think that your credit card would even be accepted if this bailout didn’t come? would you rather have to carry a wheelbarrow full of dollars to the store to get a loaf of bread? America has been pampered too much. They do not have any idea what is waiting once the gov stops the bailout. financial ruin the likes no one as seen. Death and starvation. Do you get it now?
Things haven’t gotten bad, yet.
On September 19th, 2008 at 8:47 pm, unseen said:
This country became the richest in the history of the world despite collectivism. Perhaps because it slowly crept in, like a cancer, ever since the 1930′s.
But it is now losing its wealth because of collectivism (what you call socialism). Collectivism always breeds MORE collectivism. In this case, to protect its PREVIOUS collectivism (bailout of Fannie and Freddie).
Soon there will be nothing left. Read my post above. There is NO SUCH THING as a socialist or communist or fascist society that isn’t corrupt.
There is no such thing as a capitalist / socialist mix. That is like being free in prison. You can pretend that you are free – free to imagine, free to think.
But you are not free. You are in prison.
America stopped being capitalist a long time ago. We are in a socialist country now.
Collectivism wears many masks. But underneath it is all the same: tyranny and death of individual freedom.
Conservatism yearns for freedom. Socialism, Liberalism, Republicanism are merely different facets of the same collectivist crystal: the death of individual freedom.
On September 19th, 2008 at 8:57 pm, unseen said:
You know what?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
I understand fully and completely what could happen by allowing a SOCIALIST SYSTEM run by KLEPTOCRATS to DIE OF ITS OWN CORRUPTION. And you know what?
LET IT DIE.
These bailouts were a power grab, plain and simple. I am now nothing more than a mule to make money for these socialist kleptocrats. I have been made just a little bit more of a slave to your socialist economy. You know what?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
A point in my diatribe was missed: This move by our government undermines the value system on which our economy was built: where honest, value-added, hard work was rewarded – larceny was punished. We just witnessed our government not just protect, but reward with millions of its dollars the very thieves and looters who oversaw the destruction on Wall Street. Our government did this at the expense of the tax payer WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. Is this constitutional?
Our constitution is already violated. Our government is not defending the intent of its framers. Our government is complicit in a crime against its people.
By what standard do we work today? With what incentive do we have to work and create rather than craft thieving ponzi schemes and steal value from the creators? What consequence is left for a dishonest, criminal existence (save our moral obligation to God) when those who wield the sanction force of the society stand in defense of the criminals. Our government is protecting the looters. The system is rewarding the thieves. Now, what will your court appointees protect?
What we fear has already come to pass: abortion rights, dissolution of property rights, nationalization of business, robbery of the populace, restriction of speech, a propagandist media. Pray tell what is left to prevent?
Iff (that means if and only if) we don’t suffer tremendous economic fall-out from what just happened on the financial markets, then I’ll have to check my assumptions. If my assumptions are wrong, then Barack H. Obama is the right choice for President because I am wrong about socialism. If my assumptions are right, we will be so damaged economically that Obama can do little further harm.
-rr
PS Check FoxNews – the looters are at it again advertising re-fi’s made possible by the government bail-out of Fannie Mae.
A point in my diatribe was missed: This move by our government undermines the value system on which our economy was built: where honest, value-added, hard work was rewarded – larceny was punished. We just witnessed our government not just protect, but reward with millions of its dollars the very thieves and looters who oversaw the destruction on Wall Street. Our government did this at the expense of the tax payer WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. Is this constitutional?
Our constitution is already violated. Our government is not defending the intent of its framers. Our government is complicit in a crime against its people.
By what standard do we work today? With what incentive do we have to work and create rather than craft thieving ponzi schemes and steal value from the creators? What consequence is left for a dishonest, criminal existence (save our moral obligation to God) when those who wield the sanction force of the society stand in defense of the criminals. Our government is protecting the looters. The system is rewarding the thieves. Now, what will your court appointees protect?
What we fear has already come to pass: abortion rights, dissolution of property rights, nationalization of business, robbery of the populace, restriction of speech, a propagandist media. Pray tell what is left to prevent?
Iff (that means if and only if) we don’t suffer tremendous economic fall-out from what just happened on the financial markets, then I’ll have to check my assumptions. If my assumptions are wrong, then Barack H. Obama is the right choice for President because I am wrong about socialism. If my assumptions are right, we will be so damaged economically that Obama can do little further harm.
-rr
PS Check FoxNews – the looters are at it again advertising re-fi’s made possible by the government bail-out of Fannie Mae.
FilmLadd said:
No such thing as a mix between capitalism and socialism? hmm that’s strange. 40hr work week=socialism, overtime pay=socialism. workers comp=socialism, capital markets=captialism, stock/bond trading =capitalism, small business=captialism, holiday pay=socialism, social security=socialism, right to work=capitalism, different pay for different skill sets=captialism, merit pay=capitalism, insurance=capitalism, welfare=socialism, open trade=capitalism. the list goes on and on. For 100 years America was a backwater country that could not protect itself (war of 1812, indian wars, Mexician incursions, english raids in the northwest etc), America had massive poverty, hunger, starvation, lack of basic hygenie, company towns where you worked as basic indentured slaves, slavery of entire populations etc. It was not until America brought in some ideas of socialism and mix it with capitalism that the middle class took off, that America become the world’s powerhouse of economic activity, the protecter of freedom around the world. the trick that America has pulled off so far is to keep the socialism part in the minority and to always keep capitalism in the fore front. As thomas paine once said true freedom will never be available in a human society because “government is a necessary evil”. conservatism is not a search for freedom, it is a search for small government, consitutional government of the people, by the people and for the people. By keeping gov small and by protecting the rights enshrihed in the founding documents the most freedom one can gain in a human society is available. If you want true freedom go live in a cave by yourself somewhere.
oops – IE 8.0 freaked out. Sorry for the double-post
LET IT DIE.
These bailouts were a power grab, plain and simple. I am now nothing more than a mule to make money for these socialist kleptocrats. I have been made just a little bit more of a slave to your socialist economy. You know what?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
you really do not get it do you? you think the rest of humanity will chant that slogan as their jobs disappear, as they lose their house, as they watch their children go to bed hungery? No they will demand relief form the gov. And the ramifications of that ordeal will make this bailout look like pure capitalism. We are still paying 15% of our pay to social security a byproduct of the last time we let capitalism run its course. The politicians will never sit on their hands and let people starve and if for some reason they did? you would have a revolutionrevolt and that would cause other countries to take advantage and knock out the USA during our time of weakness. Either way the country, the consitution you uphold will cease to exist. thus the bailout is the best of several bad options.
Check your facts. The assembly line and the industrial revolution brought about the rise of America. Failed monetary and reactionary trade policies brought about the advent of American socialism. We have either lived off the spoils of war or struggled in recovery ever since.
Thought I’d help you out
On September 19th, 2008 at 9:33 pm, unseen said:
There is never a shortage of disasters for collectivism to scare people into giving away their freedom.
The course of human history has been a struggle against collectivism and towards individual freedom.
Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither. So you will be a happy slave on the collectivist plantation. Enjoy your stay.
As for “that slogan,” it’s the one that helped free you from english monarchic collectivism. You should thank it everyday, otherwise you’d be paying your taxes to Prince Charles.
Your previous response to my other post was so poorly written it gives me a headache trying to read it. Try full sentences with periods and so forth.
But one bizarre thing you “wrote” stuck out. Equating small business to socialism is so beyond stupid that it is little wonder that you can not form a legible paragraph. Small business is individual enterprise as practiced by free humans; exactly contrary to the purposes of collectivism.
But then again, collectivism loves simple minds. Yours seems to be just right for its purposes.
Complete removal of our Bill of Rights.
I believe Obama’s Judicial nominations would take away 1st Amendment rights, 2nd Amendment rights, etc., etc., etc.
Video of the Fannie Mae – Barack Obama connection…it’s very significant.
Check your facts. The assembly line and the industrial revolution brought about the rise of America. Failed monetary and reactionary trade policies brought about the advent of American socialism. We have either lived off the spoils of war or struggled in recovery ever since.
check you facts. the industrial revolution and the assembly line also brought in the unions. a pure socialism concept to protect the workers right which gave rise to the 40hr work week, overtime pay, healthcare coverage, holiday pay, pensions, 401ks, dental coverage etc. It was again the mix of capitalism and socialism that gave rise to the middleclass. Of course if you think that the middle class could have become so powerful without the unions I guess you missed the period in America wheremany industrial towns were owned and operated by the corpations and the workers were nothing short of indentured servants. Or the time of rampant corruption in the 1900-1930′s where people like rockefeller rules their own mini empires. Do you think socialism was just a fad dreamed up by some elite europeans? socialism was the answer of the working class to the corruption and lack of power that the avg worker had during that time. The unions at that time were fighting for the rights of the workers (as compared to this time where they just fight for their own wallets) Once those rights were granted America moved away from the Unions in droves. If those rights are every done away with the rolls of union paying dues will once agains increase. Which is right and which is wrong? I say neither and both. It takes both to make a great economy.
You could be right… and I understand what you fear. However, your first admendment rights are already under assault. You know that because you’ve been reading Michelle on this blog.
He will attack our second admendment right. You have a point with that one. But again, what are you defending? The 2nd Admendment was written to protect our right to raise militia against an oppressive government. What armament do we have protected under the 2nd amendment that can thwart the US armed forces? Thanfully, since I love our troops, nothing. Realistically, we are battling to protect our right to own a handgun…
I think preventing the complete collapse of our financial system was the purpose of these actions by President Bush. Good presidents act without recrimination of others or over-generalizing this to mean the whole consitution is gone, etc.
Unions didn’t find prevalence until AFTER the Great Depression. They were a reaction to the pain the country felt. Think of them as part of the 15% SS penalty to which you refer. The depression was brought about largely by interventionalist trade policy and ended with the war machine FDR built to defeat the Germans and the Japanese. Unionization had nothing to do with it, neither did The New Deal.
You can’t have it both ways. If unions are good, why is Detroit in complete failure?
The 401(k) was introduced in the late 70s. It is an instrument that benefits EMPLOYERS more than employees. The 401(k) gives employers the competitive “out” they need not to extend and manage expensive pension plans (socialist entitlement programs).
If you contribute your savings to a 401(k) today, you decrease your total liquidity and you hand your money over to a program the government can re-class. Imagine being told that you can’t access that money without penalty until your 70 instead of 65, thus forcing you to work another 5 years… You think it’s impossible?
Cut the line of crap on socialism. It is what it is: a disincentive to work; a hindrance to free-thinking, instrialism; and a deletorious influence on wealth creation.
From “Darmok”:
“Shah-kah, when the walls fell”…
But, stay strong…we’ll make it…
Yes, I know that my first amendment rights are already under assault.
But not just from the left…my first amendment rights are also under assault from godless people on the right…like the atheist Allahpundit who silenced my voice on Hot Air over a disagreement about the meaning of the first amendment!
From Islamic Jihadists, to Barack Obama’s attack dogs, to Republican atheists who don’t understand the foundation upon which this country was built…
Those who can’t handle the truth
try to silence those who speak it.
Lan astaslem.
Amen
Thanks, Rocky.
“Gonna Fly Now”
filmladd you have saved me a lot of typing tonight. thank you.
unseen i don’t know if your getting a commission from this socialism infomercial you’re throwing out there but i equate socialism with economic slavery and no amount of fear mongering is ever going to change my mind.
i’m not worried about losing my job, house, or putting food on the table…i can manage for myself…i don’t know why you can’t understand that a government that can give you something can take it away just as easily.
RockyR
you need to do some history study. Unions were in this country for many years before the great depression. See the great railroad strikle of 1877. other strikes lead to riots all acorss the USA. many times Presidents had to call out the army to end the strikes. Or the Pullman nationwide strike of 1894. The coal miners in 1900 struck and recieved a 9 hour work day at the cost of 14 miners lives.
It was during reugn of FDR that the unions truly become a political force the 1940′s 50′s and 60′s saw major corruption and organized crime in the unions and lead a drive away from them yet it was their ability to fight and to die for the basic workers rights we have now.
As far as the cause of the Great depression. the same cause as the present troubles. Amassive credit crunch that cuase a major crash on Wall street in 1929. this lead to a tight credit market which lead to protectists policy as the leaders of the gov tried to protect American citizens. Those protectists impules caused the depression to last longer then normal. All of the socialist policies enacted during the Great Depression were a result of the voting citizens desire for government to help them. The New deal did not come out of nothing. Deprerssions bring massive socialism/populism.
the 401k become law in 1980. It was inteded for exceutives, it was popular with workers so it was expanded to most emploees. Yet it would never have been without the advent of pensions. It was the unions that made companies responsible for the retirement of their workers.
You point to Detriot as a case agains tunions. I say detroit would have never been the industrial might it was if not for unions. True, the present day unions are a corrupt pile of crap. The inability to fire non productive workers is a major case against unions..yet for all that they are the main reasons workers have the rights they have today and why we are unlike most 3rd world countries that exploit their workers. Still unions of and by themselves are not a 100% good thing. Just like captialism is not by itself a 100% good thing. Pure capitalism concerns itself with the bottom line. Maximizes profit above all. that means environmental conditions are not noted, workers health and welfare are not noted, saftey is not noted (expcet where it impacts the bottom line)(see recent poisioning of babies, pets, etc in china for pure capitalism) Socialism has a governing policy is not a good thing but neither is pure captialism. A strong middle class is needed to ensure democracy survives. A strong middle class is the result of mixing capitalism and socialism.
Socialism is not in and of itself a disencentive to work. Taken to the extrem it is. But used with capitalism it gives the workers rights and more of a share of the wealth that they and the owners make from each others efforts. Just because the end result of soicalism is failure does not mean all forms of socialism is inherently bad. in the same vein just because the end result of capitalism is failure does not mean all forms of capitalism (depressions, rich/poor) is inherently bad.
For a strong stable economy you must have a mix of both. this includes some regulation, some oversight, some environmental laws, some safety laws, some rules of the market, and yes some taxes to pay for it all. But the majority of the economy should be based on captialism.
e.koenig said
i’m not worried about losing my job, house, or putting food on the table…i can manage for myself…i don’t know why you can’t understand that a government that can give you something can take it away just as easily.
And that is the problem. you can not see the danger. You have no compass to understand what a true depression is and the true ramifications of the present problems. Study history not just the 1929 depression but the ones in the 1800′s the great potato famine, the rise and fall of great empires and societies. It is not fear mongering. It is history. History says that during hard economic times socialism always comes. That is fact. You don’t want a socialist society? fine Neither do I. the best way to avoid a socialist takeover is to avoid a depression. The best way we can aviod the present coming depression is by bailing out wall Street. sure it is going to require some socialism but better a little than a lot. This problem is not going to go away on its own. It is a major problem and needs a major effort to fix it. If we do nothing than history will repeat itself we will go into a recession/depression and socialism will take over maybe this time for good. and if you think I’m blowing smoke ask yourself what the people will demand if unemployment gets to 25%, if no one accepts credit in any form because the capital has been destroyed, if their savings are wiped out. you think they are just going to sit in their homes and not say anything. The Capital Dome will come down with their shout for relief from the government like none we have every seen. and the dems are in control of that Dome and will answer the call for that relief. That is the futre if we do nothing. high taxes on the rich, massive governmental prgrams for the unemployed, the hungery, the homeless, a decrease in trade across the globe. so it is always pay now or pay much more later. You will pay choose how and when.
Video of both quotes and much, much more.
unseen,
I think we are probably not too far from each, idealogically. I may be a bit more sympathetic to the libertarian cause… but I digress.
Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act before misrepresenting the capitalist role in the Great Depression. Understand that the source is “Wikipedia” so you get some propaganda along with the facts.
You are right about the tenure of unions: Daniel Yergin speaks of the Teamsters terrorist attacks on Rockefeller’s oil operations in the early 20th century in his book “The Prize”. They were bad actors, man, then and now.
You confirm my point in your post that unions rose to prominence in the 40s (and beyond). This was in REACTION to the depression, confirming your belief that misery leads to populism.
Detroit didn’t rise to prominence due to
socialismthe unions. Detriot rose because, after World War II, we were the only nation left standing who could manufacture automobiles to satisfy the demands of the newly wealthy America – unions or not.You fear the same thing I do. The difference is, I believe we are already there. The engine that made this economy great has been stripped out from under us and replaced with a tightly coupled group of looters and criminals who are fleecing the system at our expense. Let’s name it the “Culture of Incompetence”.
Morpheus (ITookTheRedPill),
Obama is flippin’ scary, man. No doubt.
-rr
History Lesson: Under Bush 1, Savings and Loan Crisis, RTC, Bush2, Now this mess-even worse.
RockyR
I am aware of Smoot. and I agree it had something to do with the problems of the time. however it was more a mulitplier than a direct cause. the Fed in 1929 kept a tight monatry policy, hoover did not intervene when the market crashed. the destruction of capital and the coresponding credit crunch that it brings as people and banks hoard cash can not be overstated as a very bad thing.
I do not believe we are there yet. We are still 4 times bigger than the 2nd world economy, we have the best productivity, the highest standard of living, etc. If we drill our own energy, increase our energy output, decrease prices and install a new manufactrue base we can continue to be the world leaders.
As far as the unions go. like I said they are not 100% good but they did bring about many of the worker benifits that we enjoy today and several did it by sacrificing their lives for them.
You know, I had to laugh when I saw how much money Teresa Heinz Kerry allegedly lost in her AIG invetment ($2,000,000 down to ~$93,000) and how much Pelosi lost (~$500,000 down to ~$22,000) with the same investment. It’s on Drudge, if you want to check the numbers. I did, until I realized why there was the bail out. It was to protect THEIR investments…not ours. It was no to “Save the counry from collapse”, it was to save their own money. Kerry’s Sugar Momma takes it big time in the Depends, and sure enough, he is going to make sure he doesn’t lose his gravy train.
I, personally, do not look at what is going on on Wall Street to be the Armaggeddon that people are screaming about.
The Dow, S&P and NASDAQ have ALL taken bigger hits than this in the last 10 years. Look at what happened after 9-11; he market went into a free-fall from over ~11,000 down to almost 7,000 or there abouts.
No one was leaping out of their highrise office windows, there were no bread and soup lines, no one was puting everything they owned in their beat-up old truck and heading West to become migrant farm workers etc.
What is happening right now, if everyone were to stop and take a deep breath, is what needed to happen. It is a major correction of everything that was way overpriced, everything that had left “The American Dream” out of reach for regular job having people in this country.
However, it is the Liberal philosophy that is doing nothing but extending this period, making the actual correction take longer and will do far more damage and cost far more jobs and money.
Of course the housing bubble was going to explode. Anyone who was shocked to find a two bedroom house in the slums going for over $300,000 in Northern California could see that. ANyone who thought, “How the Hell can they give you a loan for 125-150% of what the house is worth in pristine condition” could see this a mile away in tule fog.
The Liberalization of the economy, of this issue, is what caused this issue. There was nothing Conservative about it, and like I said, it was the myth of Bi-Partisanship…which is defined as Republicans and Conservatives selling out their beliefs and going along with he Democrats and Liberals, NEVER the other way around…that caused it.
It is that SAME BI-PARISANSHIP that is causing these “bailouts” which is prolonging the pain and extending the crash that NEEDS TO HAPPEN.
I, personally, have done GREAT with my socks in the last few days. Every single stock I own has gone UP…no less than 2% EVERY DAY for the last WEEK.
I am finally going to be able to buy my own house, and actually pay for it outright, if not a small mortgage, in the next few months. This is something that this time last year, and for the last 5 years, I was completely unable to do as the housing market was priced well ou of reach for a two income family making 6+ figures a year.
People needed to be spanked. Those that did not bother to read and find out what “Balloon Payment” meant, those banks that gave humongous loans to people with a 400 credit rating, credit card companies that handed out high limit cards to those same individuals like they were Lays Potato Chips, (Betcha can’t use just one) ALL needed to be spanked.
No one is ending up in cardboard refrigerator boxes, there are still no bread lines, soup lines, rise in migrant worker populations, Hoovervilles etc. The people who bought into the “Why pay rent when you should be buying a home” and spending 75% of their paycheck paying off 100+% mortgages are now back to paying rent…hopefully wiser for the experience.
Capitalism is STILL the BEST way to run an economy. It trusts the person, the human. It says that if you work hard, make a quality product, invest wisely and save your money, that you will prosper. It gives HOPE. It BREEDS Quality and inovation. It has worked GREAT for well over 200 years.
It is time to LET IT WORK! It is time to tell the Liberals and the Socialists to cram it up their tail-pipes and let the grown-ups do their jobs. It is time for the Republicans to let their bean-bags drop, get them out of Nanci Pelosi and Harry Reid’s pocket and do the very thing we put them into the Congress, Senate and the Oval Office for.
And it is well past time to get the people of this country OFF the entitlements and hand-outs and show them that they need to take part in that Capitalism that WORKS and for them to work hard, save their money, stop with the “Instant Gratification” and grow the hell up.
DO NOT let the MSM tell you what they want you to think and believe. Look at the headlines, then look at the bottom line. They are two VERY drastically different things, and act accordingly.
This is EXACTLY what they are doing. This is EXACTLY why The Tarnished Bovine is claiming he will not reveal his plan to “fix” this “crisis”. This is EXACTLY why Pelosi and Reed are going to adjourn the Congress and Senate WITHOUT doing anything. They created this issue, they are feeding it, nurturing it, and doing everything they can to blame it all on the Party that IS NOT IN POWER.
Remember, the “gloves are off” people. They will do ANYTHING to gain and to retain power. Your lives and your well being be damned.
Close…they were the President at the time…but under Bush 1…DEMOCRAT controlled House and Senate.
Under Bush 2…DEMOCRAT controlled House and Senate.
I recommend a Civics course for you in order to understand that it is the House and Senate that makes the laws and the rules.
On September 20th, 2008 at 5:52 am, RetFireman said:
Retfireman, great stuff. Hadn’t seen the listing of who was actually losing money – Pelosi et. al. The only correction I would make is that there is no liberal philosophy – it is merely theft with a patina of “caring.”
Unseen, we will never agree so there is no point in us discussing any further. I suspect you have a great career ahead of you working as a slavemaster for the collective. Perhaps as a social worker or some other government socialist job. One wonders if your union pays you by the word in your posts.
You are an idiot. Bush 2 is in office since January 20, 2001. Democrats only took control of House and Senate in Nov 2006.
Clinton administration establishes the “new rules” that create the problem.
Problem grows.
In May 2004, it was revealed that Secretary of the Treasury John Snow’s brokers had bought $10 million of debt issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac without his knowledge in February 2003. When Snow found out, he divested the debt holdings. A Treasury ethics lawyer has found that the holdings did not represent a conflict of interest but had the potential to do so in the future.
On May 26, 2006 Snow announced that he would resign effective July 3. He said the White House would make an official statement the following week. On May 30, it was formally announced that Snow would leave this position. On this same day, it was announced that President George W. Bush had nominated Henry Paulson, CEO of Goldman Sachs, to replace Snow.
Paulson’s three immediate predecessors as CEO of Goldman Sachs — Jon Corzine, Stephen Friedman, and Robert Rubin — each left the company to serve in government: Corzine as a U.S. Senator (later Governor of New Jersey), Friedman as chairman of the National Economic Council (later chairman of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board), and Rubin as both chairman of the NEC and later Treasury Secretary under President Bill Clinton.
Jon Corzine, as Senator, voted against the confirmation of John Roberts as Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court. When Corzine became Governor of NJ, he appointed Robert Menendez to fill his Senate seat. Menendez then voted against the confirmation of Samuel Alito.
Corzine, Stephen, Rubin and Paulson are not to be trusted! Each of those men are part of the “Vast LEFT-Wing Conspiracy”.
Snow was set up. Then replaced by Paulson who is a trojan horse!
Bush gullibly took the advice of domestic enemies who told him to nominate Henry Paulson as Treasury Secretary on May 30, 2006. On June 28, 2006, he was confirmed by the United States Senate to serve in the position. The Democratic Socialists didn’t try to filibuster him like they had done tried to do in the past with nominations they didn’t like (judicial , UN ambassador, etc.).
The Democratic congress made the Fannie/Freddie problem worse.
The MSM has been trumpeting for months that “the economy is issue #1 in this election”. They knew what was coming. Now the problem that the left intentionally created is being used as an excuse to make another power grab.
The Demoncratic Socialists intentionally created this problem.
Now the Demoncrats want to blame Republicans for the crisis and take us further down the Road to Socialism at the same time!
We MUST get the message out that the Republicans did not create this problem. The Democrats did.
Their gameplan is to say that Bush created the problem, McCain is just like Bush, and Obama is the only one who can bring the CHANGE that’s needed.
The MSM will promote that propaganda.
If Obama were to win, he would follow through on everything Malcolm X said.
This election is a battle to save our Constitutional Republic.
On September 19th, 2008 at 11:19 pm, e.koenig said:
You’re welcome. Just doing the typing that other conservatives won’t do.
On September 19th, 2008 at 11:29 am, Ahh a Lion! said:
Lion, I just saw your comment now. (I wasn’t ignoring you)
I think that McCain is a RINO, but Palin gives me hope that things can be different.
Allowing the Demoncratic Socialists to have any power at all would be suicidal for our Constitutional Republic. Republicans, whether RINOs or true conservatives, must be elected in November. There is no other option. Sarah Barracuda might even be able to get some RINOs to straighten up and start acting like conservatives. Let us pray.
If you’re not living in Michigan, you have absolutely NO idea how bad it is here. I’ve been living in Michigan for most of my adult life, and this is as bad as I have ever seen it. Wrenching poverty, hunger, homelessness.
Over the years we have seen greed and outsourcing decimate the once proud Michigan automotive industry. The Big Three are attempting to correct some of these problems using a variety of aggressive measures, but they simply aren’t enough.
Here in Michigan we have factories sitting idle all across the state, with a trained and ready workforce that is trying to cope with the highest unemployment figures in the nation and struggling to weather the transition.
Our factories MUST be re-tooled so that we can once again compete on a global market and bring healing to our desperate economy.
I support the retooling of the automotive industry because it will help Michigan get back on it’s feet again, and we desperately need the help here. Families are struggling terribly in Michigan. People are HUNGRY here, losing their homes and livelihoods and everything else that they hold dear. Families are breaking up and falling apart. Moving to another state is simply not an option for a lot of Michiganders.
The desperation that I see on the faces of many of my fellow Michiganders is staggering. We need help, and we need it NOW.
Please don’t lump the “bailout” of the automotive industry in with all of the others. Of all the bailouts, this is one that comes down to the level of basic survival for many families. You can’t really understand how bad it is in Michigan unless you live here. But it is very, very bad.
On September 20th, 2008 at 8:13 am, edelweiss said:
Yeah, and all it took those losers (Pelosi & Pals) was two years destroy the nation’s economy with their inaction and gotcha politics!
BTW, Jim Johnson and Franklin Raines – B. HUSSEIN Obama’s top economic advisers – played one heck of a role in this Clinton based mess!
IrishRose,
I sympathize with the people of Michigan; however, it is not the responsibility of the federal government to help the auto industry re-tool. Part of the freedom of free enterprise is the freedom to fail. Yes, it is awful at times, and terrible for some families. But in the long haul free markets work, if given the chance. In the U.S. we no longer give it the time to correct the problems. We jump in too quickly and make the problem worse.
My wife and I moved our family from a depressed area to a vibrant, growth area. Best move ever.
The auto industries tough times are mostly self-inflicted by bad management and thuggish unions. They need to survive or fail on their own. (And I am also fully against all these other bailouts.)
having just skimmed the previous posts, it is apparent that politics and the usual attendant witch hunt is all that matters, not what happens to the economy or the taxpayers money. After listening to all the pols and reading all the news, it is apparent that rather than getting the facts and understanding the problem is the concern of less than .0001% of all the talking heads and news people….including you Michelle.
We don’t have a free economy and never have…..
The current problem is caused by TWO factors, both of which are controlled by the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) and no one is doing anything about it. They are instituting new rules to control financial institutions, but instead of doing so in a calm and ordered matter, it has become about who has the biggest dick, not about what is good for our economy, the taxpayer or anyone else. The two rules I am talking about are; 1) Mark-to-Market, and 2) requiring that all off-balance sheet transactions come back on the financial institutions balance sheet NOW!. Both are needed rule changes, but under the current ecopnopmic reality, both guarantee the failure of almost every single bank and financial institution in the US. This isn’t about “Free Markets” it’s about POOR REGULATORY CHOICES!!!! Michelle, do your homework before you write about this stuff!!!!
I lived through the RTC witchhunt and it ended upcosting the taxpayers about $750 Billion before it was all over (and we taxpayers are still paying on that debt) but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the possibility of losses from derivative transactions (totaling over $8 TRILLION)
Wow! What great comments, I am sure this never happens on the liberal blogs who only spew hatred.
Roland, your comments are spot on. We are not starting out with clean slate just like in our personal lives. Past mistakes have to be corrected with unpalatable medicine and then avoided in future. Do you think Obama, Pelosi, Reid really want to fix this? Not. Their very constituency depends on them.
Just think what could happen with-
- SC judges
- Socialized heatlthcare
- Global giveouts
- Weak defense against Jihadism
- Amnesty
and then vote for the FUTURE YOU WANT…
Irish Rose,
Michigan has been run by collectivist democrats for years. The state is a mess as a result. Greed and outsourcing have got nothing to do with it.
The automotive industry’s issues have been known for a long time. I know many people who work for GM. I’ve heard many stories of the arrogant design teams there. Even if you suddenly made the unions disappear the big three automakers in the U.S. would still be big fat losers.
Tesla motors, an independent company, can design an electric sportscar that goes 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds with a range of 244 miles. It is for sale now.
GM couldn’t get its EV1 out and is now trying to squeeze out its pathetic Volt by 2010, with a miserable range of 40 miles.
I don’t want my taxes going to save GM’s incompetent butts any more than I want my taxes going to protect the mortgage companies or Nancy Pelosi’s 401k.
Any member of the lower class in the U.S. is richer than the richest of the medieval kings. Standards of livings rise when mankind is free to innovate new technologies.
When the State interferes in the market it destroys ingenuity and the progress of mankind toward ever greater standards of living.
It was also sad for the carriage makers when the horse and buggy died out. But you know what? Thank God the State didn’t start subsidizing them, otherwise we’d still be using them.
Interesting Headline,
Considering, the bomb was built by Democrat Do-Gooders…The bomb exploded…And, Fiscal Conservatives were left with no other choice.
On September 20th, 2008 at 10:50 am, franksalterego said:
What fiscal conservatives are you referring to? Bush has never been a fiscal conservative, and he’s the only elected official that’s been a part of this massive socialist takeover of the economy.
Where are the concurrent spending CUTS??? God help us all.
If this bailout is approved, what concessions will the United Auto Workers Union make? Why should taxpayers subsidize some of the highest union wages, and the union that donates tens of millions of dollars to the Democrats? It is true that many UAW members were Reagan voters and are likely to be Palin voters once they see her and hear her message, but the union deducts dues from members’ paychecks and uses large portions of those dues to donate to Democrats. Any bailout should contain provisions to prevent the union from profiting from it. Just keeping the manufacturers operating should be enough help for the unions, too.
Interesting headline,
Suggesting, there was some other choice.
“[W]hy would anybody be such a fool as to introduce, into the debate about what we should do now, arguments about what we should have done before?”
–Orson Scott Card,
This is a quote, I usually reserve for Liberals and Democrats.
I guess, it can also be applied to so-called “right-wing bloggers”
“Coulda’…Woulda’…Shoulda’”
no…it is you, once again, proving to be the idiot who would forget to breathe if it was not a reflex action.
Since the Dems “swept” into office in 2006, unemployment has tanked, the economy has tanked, the banks are being bailed out etc.
ALL of this has occurred in the last two years.
At least look at some news if you are going to open that festering gop of yours.
This could be the event that gets Obama elected I fear.
People, please. This is NOT a Democrat issue and it is NOT a Republican issue. This is a CRIMINAL issue. Both parties are fleecing you, and the only choice you have is to vote one or the other of them into office over and over again.
Let them “fix” this mess. The same group of looters who created the real estate bubble, and the y2k bubble before it, will go out and create a new bubble that the taxpayers’ government can come along and “fix” again 10 years from now. The looters will continue to get rich, you will continue to work longer hours and feel the squeeze.
On Michigan: Michigan was ruined by its governance, the managers of the auto companies, and the unions combined. They are all complicit. The unions insist on paying a button-pushing assembly line worker $40/hour. The managers approve it because it means they can, under the socialistic “the top managers can be paid no more than x times the lowest paid worker” scheme, pay themselves more. The government wanted the income tax dollars. Only problem was, they couldn’t produce a good product under this scheme and the Japanese came along and took their market away. Who wants to spend the outputs of their hard work to help the perpetrators of this type of crime?
What we are dealing with here is a systemic, cultural problem exacerbated by a lack of strong conservative (libertarian, pro-American, Judeo-Christian) leadership.
Of course this country is worth fighting for, it’s all we’ve got. But we have to clearly define the problem we face and put partisanship aside.
BTW, Obama is NOT the answer but he will probably win. Take it as a saving grace his mandate won’t extend much beyond the socialistic moves that are already in motion, so much the damage he will do has already been realized.
Michigan isn’t the only one suffering. Try Upstate New York, the forgotten region that both Senators Chucky Schumcky Schumer and Shrillary have forsaken. It keeps losing jobs not creating them. Many industries departed because they didn’t evolve such as Kodak and I think that the auto industry is suffering for its overcompensating labor agreements and complacency.
I sympathize with the plight of those in Michigan. However, I don’t blame the auto indsutry for shipping jobs overseas when they couldn’t compete because of labor overcompensation. Union workers are being paid WAY TOO MUCH. How much? Some deals had workers earning well over 100k. Not sure that kind of compensation is what I would like to pay for as a consumer of a product like Ford’s SUV’s which in some instances go caput without any explanation. That’s why there’s a great abbreviation for Ford that both my husband and I experienced personally: Found On the Road Dead.
The problem is that there are folks in Michigan waiting for jobs that WILL NEVER come back. The problem with the auto industry is that it can’t compete with the rest of the world. The problem with the workforce is that they have grown used to being overcompensated for skills that aren’t worth that much overseas. Labor unions took the auto industry for a ride and companies like GM and Ford cannot continue on this path. That’s WHY the factories are standing idle.
I do not agree with throwing taxpayer money at retooling. Sometimes, unfortunately, industries fail and the more you prop them up the more, in the end, they will sting local communities when they inevitably do not survive.
If people do not adapt to hard times, those people will not be able to raise themselves up. I’ve seen my father work in multiple industries and adapt when they fail and go belly up. After the Navy, my father was an assembly worker for a now defunct gunmaker named Ithaca Gun. When it went belly up, he trained as a steamfitter/plumber and went to work for Cornell U. where he worked until he retired. What I’m getting at is that people should not be waiting around for jobs that aren’t coming back. They’ve going to have to retrain and do something else. That might also involve moving to a state that needs skilled autoworkers like in Tennessee. This might sound unfeeling, but things don’t last forever, even careers. I learned this when I stopped kidding myself that I would ever find a teaching job as a military spouse. The two are simply incompatible. So, I had to go back to the private sector and find something else that actually compensated me more. I’m used to moving and adapting and it sucks but it’s part of life and the more people resist change the more they will suffer for that lack of adaptation.
This kind of emotional blindness, respectfully, is killing our economy. There are many Americans who think that they’re now “entitled” to factory jobs. Yes, I know that many Americans will never go to college but unless we can rework the framework between companies and labor to bring those jobs back, no amount of crying about it will make it so.
IR, I sympathize but we cannot ignore the reality of the situation. There is nothing for me in Upstate New York because no one ever took the steps to economically develop this sector (such as politicians). I’ve seen countless farming families go belly up because, let’s face it, they live and die by the elements. Good crop season= making a profit. Bad crop season= you’re in debt. These kind of economic cycles made small farming families more vulnerable to competition by larger corporate farms. I don’t like that reality but it’s there. Perhaps, with the onset of “echo friendly farming,” there are some small farms making a comeback.
There is just nothing for me in Upstate New York. It’s an economic dead zone for professional people in their 30′s. Unfortunately, with high taxes and incompetence to changing realities, it looks like the East Coast will be facing similar hard times.
We Americans need to take stock and make adjustments. Perhaps, not continually voting for Dems who raise your taxes and make your life harder so that they can profit it off of you is a start.
Sorry for the length….
Where is George Soros in all of this??
[edit] Currency speculation
On Black Wednesday (September 16, 1992), Soros became immediately famous when he sold short more than $10 billion worth of pounds, profiting from the Bank of England’s reluctance to either raise its interest rates to levels comparable to those of other European Exchange Rate Mechanism countries or to float its currency.
Finally, the Bank of England was forced to withdraw the currency out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism and to devalue the pound sterling, and Soros earned an estimated US$ 1.1 billion in the process. He was dubbed “the man who broke the Bank of England.”
The Times of Monday, October 26, 1992, quoted Soros as saying: “Our total position by Black Wednesday had to be worth almost $10 billion. We planned to sell more than that. In fact, when Norman Lamont said just before the devaluation that he would borrow nearly $15 billion to defend sterling, we were amused because that was about how much we wanted to sell.”
According to Steven Drobny,[12] Stanley Druckenmiller, who traded under Soros, originally saw the weakness in the pound. “Soros’ contribution was pushing him to take a gigantic position,” in accord with Druckenmiller’s own research and instincts.
In 1997, during the Asian financial crisis, then Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad accused Soros of using the wealth under his control to punish ASEAN for welcoming Myanmar as a member. Later, he called Soros a moron.[13] Thai nationals have called Soros “an economic war criminal[14]” who “sucks the blood from the people”.[15]
Anyone make their 20 calls for McCain/Palin (or Palin/McCain)? Just made some — fun, easy, interesting.
Go to http://www.johnmccain.com and register, then http://www.johnmccain.com/phonebank.
I think the names they give you to call are undecideds. Got mostly answering machines. 1 hang-up. Surprised at how many people are still undecided. (I’m in Florida.)
Going to see Sarah speak tomorrow!
Whoops! Posted in wrong thread
Meant to post in Open Saturday…
(NOTE: I have NOT read above posts)
A small request: PLEASE DO NOT FLAME WITHOUT CONSIDERATION.
I DO understand “in theory” the aspect of why this (as commonly known) “bailout” is INDEED a bad idea.
FAIR ENOUGH.
PLEASE recognize, however, that without this “bailout,” an Obama “win” IMHO would almost have been guaranteed - and that, with a Democratic Congress (to whatever degree…vetoproof or whatever…), would be potentially even more disasterous for America.
I welcome all reasonable thoughts as to why this might not be the case…but just for discussion.
Thanks.
Michelle, as I understand it Paulson and Bernanke told the Pelosi and Schummer gang in that meeting Thursday that there was a chance ATM machines may not have cash if something is not done.
The ability to attain cash, even for banks could have been compromised.
If that is the case, and there is reason to believe it’s true then chaos would have prevailed.
You could have expected runs on banks as well as runs on retail, grocery etc.
Panic would have caused riots in select urban locations.
Call it what you want, death to conservatism, whatever, but this was a close call.
The immediate cause was short selling, organized short attacks on select financial institutions. That had to stop and the Administration did it.
As for AIG, it’s an $85 billion line of credit but the company wants to stay whole and may only draw half that. The rest will be paid back. Yes, paid back because the shareholders have a stake they don’t care to lose.
Fannie Mae, McCain warned in 2005 that it was being run into the ground. Barney Franks and the dems including Obummer looked the other way because they were being greased.
The true cause of the entire sub prime mmess goes back to a little of Clinton and alot of Barney Franks. They wanted to see everyone own a home.
Preasure was put on these lending institutions to suspend credit requirements. Facing threats of fines they bent their own lending rules. Too many of these would be homeowners got ahead of their ability to pay the mortgage.
Who’s fault is it is not really the question now, the question is how to restore order.
Some strict market people hate this but the alternative was blood in the streets and a potential for social breakdown.
I applaud the Administration for acting.
Now we have to hope the Dems don’t pile their pork on the President’s plan.
The fact that Obama got a small boost in the polls this week is amazing .The week that it comes out that he tried to stall the troop pull out till after the election while in Iraq and now the bailout … and the small % of undecided have been conned into thinking this is a Bush deal . Boy these people are not too smart … even more amazing how much dumber the rest of the solid Obama supporters must be .
On September 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am, franksalterego said:
I love Card’s work (especially the Ender’s series), but in this case I think his quote is misapplied.
It is important to know what was done yesterday so that the same mistakes are not repeated in the future.
This bailout is a much larger (and hence, far more evil) version of earlier mistakes.
No, you are lying Michelle…Next time when Bush makes another completely non-conservative move you will be having loads of praise for it just because you happen to agree with that policy.
And even you are a contributor to shutting down conservatism by your support for various other non-conservative policies put forth by few poweful house/senate republicans.
Examples? When has Michelle EVER agreed with the spendathon policies of the Bush administration? Geez… leash the rage, Dude.
Examples? What the hell are you talking about?
Fireblogger,
You’ll never see the end of bad behavior from the Dims or the Rips if we continue to reward their larceny and absolve their responsibility through bail-outs and victimhood-based excusitis.
I don’t want to see blood in the streets, ever. The good thing is, I don’t think we were actually all that close to having that happen this last week. We are far more likely to see blood in street 5-10 years from now when, burdened with high, high taxes to pay these liabilities and to cover the expense of entitlements for baby-boomers, younger workers revolt.
We have to fundamentally change our ways now, or things are going to get very bad. Neither political party is addressing the fundamental issues at play here – failed market manipulation, cultural erosion, industrial breakdown, people’s abandonment of education – ,rather they are all content to focus on BAU (business as usual).
If you can’t tell, I’m passionate about this topic
Rocky,
Amen, and this is why I am passionate about keeping the White House in the hands of Republicans.
I refuse to believe the polls that have Obummer in the lead. I understand our cities are gone but the South and Heartland are way too close.
Are so many Americans so gullible?
Where did we get that far off track?
I don’t have the answer on this one, but here are some of my ideas:
1.) Our broken education system – our children are indoctrinated at a very early age by very liberal, socialist thinkers who run our classrooms. The State leaves most of us little choice but to put our children through this mess as they force us to pay for it through high taxes and because school is compulsory.
2.) Our propagandist media – the left owns the MSM, this is not a veiled truth any longer. The right owns talk radio. Neither side reports unbiased news. One either consumes one or the other viewpoint. The right isn’t as sophisticated as the left in their slant. We tend to be a little blunt. If one rejects the slant of the right, they will turn to the indoctrination of the left.
3.) Hollywood – most young people don’t pay attention to current events (I had a couple of 20-somethings recently express surprise to learn that McCain was a POW – they had NO idea). However, almost every young person watches movies and/or TV. These entertainment outlets are overwhelmingly leftist. Unfortunately, many young thinkers don’t know how to distinguish between entertainment and fact. Why have Al Gore and Michael Moore been so successful?
4. The Church – from catholic pedophilia to evangelical money-changers, the church has let us down. The tenants of Christianity are every bit as relevant today as they have ever been. However, it is very hard for many people to trust organized religion after a string of scandal. Traditionally, the church has played a very important role in preserving cultural mores of individual responsibility and distrust of big government.
Ignorance + Apathy = Breakdown
Hi everyone. Republicans haven’t been fiscal conservatives for at least 30 years now. Welcome to awareness. Anybody feel like taking any responsibility for sending a lying idiot to the White House?
No?
I thought not.