“Count me among the many Republicans here who have enough self respect to stay far away from McCain on election day. “

You don’t have any self respect… If you did you would be working to stop Obama.

“Democrats and independents gave us McCain in the open primaries.”

Bull.

His record is clear and if he should win, the whining from betrayed voters will start immediately after his left-wing inauguration speech. Democrats and independents gave us McCain in the open primaries. Let them elect him.

“Well, since you didn’t respond to any of Keyes’ positions, and solely resorted to ad hominem fallacies,

WHY BOTHER? The whole POINT is that he is not going to get elected! Can’t you see that? He could be the best candidate in the world (lol) and your choice between viable candidates would still be McCain or Obama.

Look, This is what Allan Keys (lol) has to say about Barack Obama:

Alan Keyes Compares Obama To Hitler

During a guest appearance on the April 17 broadcast of 630 KHOW-AM’s The Caplis & Silverman Show, former Republican presidential and U.S. Senate candidate Alan Keyes said he could “only give you one insight into [U.S. Sen.] Barack Obama [D-IL]: He’s an evil man and he needs to be stopped.” Keyes said, “[I]f people in Germany had looked at the facts of what Hitler was standing for, they might have stopped him.”

I can only give you one insight into Barack Obama: He’s an evil man and he needs to be stopped. That’s an insight. OK? This is a guy who when he was in the state legislature in Illinois blocked the Born Alive Infant Protection Act that was being worked on at the state level that had bipartisan support — where even pro-abortion people were supporting a bill to stop the practice of letting infant babies be set aside to die. OK?

Somebody who is willing to countenance infanticide — the most barbaric practice that I think one can imagine, the most incredible disregard for absolutely innocent human life that one can imagine. To suggest that there’s some moral compass in this individual, that there’s anything there but the glamour of evil down to that deep level committed to something that will utterly destroy the human conscience is simply to ignore the facts. And, and so that’s all I have to say about that. People who want that evil to triumph will support it. They’ll be gulled. They’ll be taken in. But people who don’t will look at the facts. Just as if people in Germany had looked at the facts of what Hitler was standing for, they might have stopped him. People need to do that here. Don’t get taken in by smiles. Don’t get taken in by phony rhetoric. Just look at the truth.

So… Don’t you think someone like that ought to be stopped? Since Alan isn’t going to be able to do it shouldn’t you be thinking about voting for someone who can stop him? (A rhetorical question at this point. I don’t think there is anyone who really hasn’t made up their minds already. In so far as conservatism goes, or even the wellbeing of the country I personally have no doubt that you have chosen wrong.)

I guess this conversation is over.”

Indeed, I am due back on earth.

“If you are a guy who votes based upon principle, as John Adams recommends”

Why don’t you vote for John Adams? Even in his current condition he will probably get more votes then Alan Keyes.

“You haven’t responded to logic.”

I absolutely have.

“Speaking of history, it’d probably serve you well to read about why Keyes lost so badly in IL”

Big stupid mouth? Was that it? His big stupid mouth? I seem to recall something about his big stupid mouth having something to do with the crushing defeat he suffered at the hands of Barack Obama… Maybe it was his stupid big mouth..

“I don’t much look forward to hearing people complain in just a few months time about amnesty getting passed. “

Then vote against Obama and get to work. Mark my words, the surest way to open borders is to elect Obama. Join us in our effort to stop it, regardless of whether you vote for someone with no chance of effecting the outcome or not.

“is doing for us now with this $700+ billion bailout,”

Is that the lesser of 2 evils or simple mismanagement and greed? I have an MBA and I don’t know whether or not this is necessary or a good idea. Why don’t you ask the Professor and Mr.Howell and tell me what they say is the best course of action.

“I guess I’ll seek life someplace besides the GOP from now on. “

You aren’t doing yourself or the country any favors.

Keep chugging the moderate kool-aid.

Keep lying to yourself that you are not selling out the country.

On September 24th, 2008 at 1:55 am, Solo said:

Smart folks, those Adams’. “Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” ~John Quincy Adams

On September 24th, 2008 at 1:27 am, Bill Grant said:

Well, since you didn’t respond to any of Keyes’ positions, and solely resorted to ad hominem fallacies, I guess this conversation is over. If you are a guy who votes based upon principle, as John Adams recommends, then you’d at least read what he has to say. You haven’t responded to logic. You haven’t responded to the historical examples. (Speaking of history, it’d probably serve you well to read about why Keyes lost so badly in IL. Something about the Republican candidate dropping out due to a sex scandal 86 days before the election and the IL state GOP asking Keyes to run when no one else would, even though he wasn’t from IL.) I don’t much look forward to hearing people complain in just a few months time about amnesty getting passed. We all have seen what the “lesser of two evils” is doing for us now with this $700+ billion bailout, which McCain is showing real leadership on, just not the right kind. I guess I’ll seek life someplace besides the GOP from now on. They still have some good ones (Duncan Hunter, Tancredo, Jindal, and a few others), but taken as a whole, they’re lost.
Take it easy, Bill. Thanks for the responses.

“Good. I’m tired of reading left of center gop/McCain talking points.”

Go back to where you will be more at home then.

I could be just like you…send the cash, support an open borders, pro-amnesty, reach across the isle backstabbing moderateislamist appeasing traitor like McglobalwarmingObamamessiah…

Fixed it for you. Better yet, you could just say that you were a member…

“Yeah, that’ll save conservative movement.”

Another Alan Keyes fellow are you?

“Wreck It? I’m trying to save it from incompetent fools like McCain, Obama,”

You are just helping Obama… but you knew that already, right? Right…

“How bad would McCain have to be before you wouldn’t vote for him any longer?”

How shall I quantify this? 20% as bad as Obama? 22% as good as Alan Keyes? (Can you wrap your head around the fact that he has no chance what so ever of being elected president of the USA?) How shall I rate McCain? On a scale of Obama to Keys he is 86% Keys.

“How bad would McCain have to be before you wouldn’t vote for him any longer?”

Huh? Did you say something? I am just trying to imagine “president Keyes”. It’s a goddamn punch line. Gee…I wonder what would happen if we were to match up Barack Obama with Allan Keyes? OH WAIT, I DON”T HAVE TO WONDER AT ALL, IT ALREADY HAPPENED! Allan Keyes got spanked like a little she dog by the obamamessiah in the Illinois Senate race. GEE, Let’s carry this fantasy to the impossible point where Alan Keyes gets to take on Barack Obama idiot to idiot… It has already been done and he lost! Not only did he lose, he got his obnoxious butt wooped. So gee… This probably isn’t a good idea to make Alan Keyes our standard bearer, is it? Why? HE ALREADY LOST TO OBAMA.

“An analogy:”

A stupid one. An insult to decency. McCain is a genuine hero and has almost given his life for the USA. Obama has served nothing but his own personal ambitions and the cause of soft-Marxism. That is the choice.

“Fallacy 2 (P3,P4): Saying that McCain and Obama are the only two candidates with a chance of winning is a false dichotomy.”

There is not one tiny thing false about it. This is where you have severed yourself from reality. Oh My God… The chances of Alan Keyes getting elected to dogcatcher much less PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES in 2008 are ZERO. Do you know how many busloads of people would have to go off a cliff before we got to Alan Keyes? Good Lord I STAND MORE OF A CHANCE then Alan Keyes!!!

“If conservatives shook off the chains of the Republican Party and stuck to their own principles,”

This is a republic, not a parliamentary democracy. We vote for people, not parties and there were plenty of conservatives in the primaries, including Alan Keyes! (I can’t get over this. You need to have a disclaimer hung around your neck or some kind of warning tattooed on to your forehead.) HE LOST, JUST LIKE HE WOULD DO AGAIN… JUST LIKE HE WILL!!!!

“Fallacy 3 (P5): To say that McCain is more controllable than Obama is wishful thinking.”

No it isn’t! It is a demonstrable fact! McCain has an 82% lifetime rating by the conservative union and Obama was the most liberal senator in the business according to the national review. It is the fact. It can be shown and measured. (Unlike the possibility of Alan Keyes being elected president!)

“Especially with a heavily Democratic Congress, he’ll have no problems passing amnesty,”

Yes he will, he has promised not to sign it until the borders are secured. That will give people (who are sane) time to pressure congress for enforcement. Either way we (people who are sane) are going to have to work to stop it. Obama is the one who will have no problem passing it.

“As President, he’ll do whatever he thinks is right, regardless if it’s popular or not.”

He has reversed himself on a host of issues to please his republican base… He has shown that he listens. Obama has shown that he thinks that you are a bigoted cracker and that there is absolutely no need to work with you or anyone else to compromise his collective vision for how you are going to live. And Alan Keyes? He has shown that he can get the grand total of 2 votes. Probably from promising to mount a rescue operation to Gilligan’s Island…

“So, if I understand Bill’s argument:”

Brace yourself. Through the looking glass we go to the land of make-believe. Where tootsie rolls rain from the sky and there are 72 black-eyed virgins for everyone who votes for Alan Keyes!

“P1: A vote for someone besides Obama or McCain is not a vote for Obama or McCain.”

There are 2 viable candidates and here is a newsflash for you, you moonbat: Alan Keyes isn’t one of them. (Why didn’t you just say that you were stark raving mad to begin with so I could have saved some time typing? Seeing you plop down Alan Keys as your hope for America is like having a conversation with someone who you recently met and half way in the middle of what appears to be a rational construct they say something like: “You know, they can put a man on the moon but they still can’t rescue those poor people on Gilligan’s Island….” )

“Fallacy 1 (P2,P4): Saying that McCain is less flawed that Obama is problematic.”

It isn’t a fallacy. By most any measure McCain has more qualified, better-suited candidate. By a conservative metric or even a common decency metric. Of course he is no Allan Keyes. But who but Allan Keyes is Allan Keyes? (!!!)

No thanks. We’re done here.

Good. I’m tired of reading left of center gop/McCain talking points.

Might as well save your cash if you are just going to turn around undercut yourself

Yeah, I could be just like you…send the cash, support an open borders, pro-amnesty, reach across the isle backstabbing moderate like Mcglobalwarming. Yeah, that’ll save conservative movement. The kool-aid is strong in you, Bill.

save your breath if you want anyone with a triple digit IQ to vote to wreck the country in order to save it.

Wreck It? I’m trying to save it from incompetent fools like McCain, Obama, and moderate sheep like you, Forrest.

Guess again, Bill.

No thanks. We’re done here.

Thanks for the link but I don’t need it. I’ve been a member of fair & NumbersUSA for well over 3 years now.

Might as well save your cash if you are just going to turn around undercut yourself and save your breath if you want anyone with a triple digit IQ to vote to wreck the country in order to save it.

So who is this “conservative”? Introduce us to the latest pied piper of missfits. Who is the newest “only man who can save America”?

Well, I seem to have found a candidate (if you’re willing to read what he has to say before you dismiss him, like you did with Farah and others did to Voddie Baucham) who espouses the following (not a complete list): (1) Against abortion. (2) Against affirmative action. (3) On campaign finance reform: Only voters (not corporations or groups) should be allowed to contribute to campaigns (however much they wish to spend), which should in turn become public knowledge. (4) Supports the death penalty. (5) Says, “In our foreign policy and international alliances, we must never be subservient to merely pragmatic considerations of money, oil, or any other expediency. We must set our course mindful that we are morally obligated to always stand foursquare with those who fight on the front lines of freedom and representative government…” (6) Opposes embryonic stem cell research. (7) “I have always been a staunch defender of free enterprise and an opponent of the domineering bureaucracies, both national and international, which try to suffocate it. But I cannot stand with those so-called conservatives who believe that “free trade” is more important than free government, or the “fiscal conservatives” who seem to believe that money and economic advantage matter more than our right to constitutional, elective self-determination. Trade socialism must be defeated root and branch, even when it is called ‘free trade.’” (8) Pro-legal immigration. Very much against illegal immigration. (9) Believes the Constitution has supremacy over the SOTUS. (10) 2nd Amendment: “The right to keep and bear arms was included in the Bill of Rights so that when, by a long train of abuses, government evinces a methodical design upon our natural rights, we will have the means to protect and recover those rights.” (11) On education: “I strongly favor school choice approaches that empower parents to take control of their children’s education…” (12) On the GWOT: “’What do you do about the war on terror” is like asking, ‘Do you want to die.’ No we don’t — therefore we must defend ourselves against this threat, and we have no option and no choice.” (13) Experience: U.S. Department of State, foreign service officer, 1978, consular office, Bombay, India, 1979-80, desk officer, Zimbabwe, 1980-81, policy planning staff, 1981-83, U.S. representative to the United Nations Economic and Social Council (UNESCO), 1983-85, assistant secretary of state for International Organization Affairs, 1985-88; Republican nominee for U.S. Senate from Maryland, 1988, 1992; Citizens Against Government Waste, president, 1989-91; public speaker, lecturer, 1990- ; Alabama A&M University, interim president, 1991; WCBM Radio, Owings Mills, MD, host of nationally syndicated “America’s Wake-Up Call” show; candidate for president of the United States, 1995-96.
His name: Alan Keyes.

Fallacy 1 (P2,P4): Saying that McCain is less flawed that Obama is problematic. How bad would McCain have to be before you wouldn’t vote for him any longer? At what point would you abandon the Republican Party for another for the sake of principle? An analogy: if two popular men were up for the job of school superintendant, one a pedophile, the other a serial killer, would you vote for either of them if you were on the school board? I’d assume not, especially if there is a lesser known person who is qualified and doesn’t have the unpleasant baggage of the others. I’d do all I could to get the word out that he’s the guy we need to choose, not the other two.
Fallacy 2 (P3,P4): Saying that McCain and Obama are the only two candidates with a chance of winning is a false dichotomy. If conservatives shook off the chains of the Republican Party and stuck to their own principles, then they wouldn’t be destined to their own self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fallacy 3 (P5): To say that McCain is more controllable than Obama is wishful thinking. Especially with a heavily Democratic Congress, he’ll have no problems passing amnesty, as an example. As President, he’ll do whatever he thinks is right, regardless if it’s popular or not. Apparently, he thinks amnesty is right.