Carnage in the markets! Carnage in the markets! Carnage in the markets! Oops, never mind
Don’t look now, but stocks are down a whopping 1 percent in Germany and are flat in Britain and France.
U.S. markets are poised to open higher. Update: Dow up more than 200 points in early trading.
Most Asian stock markets are holding up well too. The Shanghai Composite closed down just 0.2 percent; the Hang Seng closed up 0.8 percent; Bombay’s BSE 30 closed finished the day up 2.1 percent.
Flashback: “The US stock market could suffer a devastating crash with shares losing a third of their value this week if Hank Paulson’s financial bailout plan fails, US Treasury officials have warned.”
***
Ditto Mark Levin:
The liberal uses crises, real or manufactured, to expand the power of government at the expense of the individual and private property. He has spent, in earnest, 70 years evading the Constitution’s limits on governmental power. If conservatives don’t stand up to this, who will? If they don’t offer serious alternatives that address the current circumstances AND defend the founding principles, who will? The House Republicans have done both. And I, for one, thank them.
Incidentally, if you want to buy a home or car today you can. And if your credit is decent, you can get loans at a good rate. Last week we were told that if a deal was not struck by last Friday, our economy would collapse. It has not. That is not to say the evidence of economic troubles or worse should be ignored. It is to say that now is a time for reasoned decisions based on tried and true principles, not for abandoning them. I notice that the socialist, who, for the last 30 years, has insisted that private institutions make risky loans based on non-economic reasons, still has not abandoned his policies. Socialism does not work. We shouldn’t support more of it.
Related…Lie of the day: McDonald’s can’t get credit!
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Trackbacks
- In Case You Were In Stock Bargan Hunting Mode This Morning « Beltway Snark
- Plains Feeder - No Great Depression?
- Seymour Nuts » Blog Archive » Wow, the Free Market System Works!
- Mainstream press launches one last-ditch effort to rally for a recession « Right Minded Online
- Do we really need a bailout? « Above My Pay Grade!
- Patriots And The 1st Oinker Tanks « Mcnorman’s Weblog
- U.S. Treasury Issues New $1 Bill : Ft. Hard Knox
- Jules Crittenden » The Case For Nihilism
- Don’t Believe Pundits - Watch The Markets and Underlying Volume For Armageddon Truth | Bitter Knitter
- Health Care BS - PARLIAMENT OF MORONS
- Dooooooom (Not So Much) | The Loudest Cricket
- How Chicken Little Is Making the Sky Fall | Counting Sheep
- AFNonline » Blog Archive » Tell McCain NO TO SOCIALISM!
- Manufacturing Consent: Imminent Financial Crisis or Political Theater? « Retractable Horns & Tail
- Michelle Malkin » Memo to McCain: Stop using the Sonic credit scare story
- Jumping to conclusions; The “right” and “left” making assumptions without facts « Northern Thoughts And Reflections
- The death of fiscal conservatism « The Right Daily
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Categories: Subprime crisis
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I listed Drs Sowell & Williams a few days back, and never had a response from lgm—-don’t expect one today.
rpfinley: The solution to this problem is not to increase the amount borrowed, it is to reduce the amount borrowed. We can’t continue to borrow this much forever. If it doesn’t happen now, it will be worse later on.
More about why San Fran Nan is just bonkers over this bill not passing.
Hmmm… what exactly are Pelosi’s concerns again? Seems she has millions of reasons to not be happy about that bill failing.
I bank at Wachovia. I made a fairly large deposit yesterday.
To paraphrase Lincoln: “You can scare some of the people all of the time…”
The problem is that the booms of the last 2 decades were based on borrowing. Don’t you remember the ads for home equity loans and cheap mortgages? That couldn’t last forever. Eventualy the debts come due. Sorry if you don’t like it but SOMEBODY has to pay the bills.
Exactly. The people who should pay are the participants in the transaction.
You take a risk, you eat the cake or the crow.
Buy low sell high.
Wall St seems to have forgotten that basic rule.
Well perhaps I should change my name to ChickenLittle. Sorry for my panic yesterday Michelle and others who comment here, I sincerely believed today was going to be very very different from what we’re seeing so far. I am very relieved and happy to say I was completely wrong. I hope it stays this way. Thank you Michelle for your continued updates and for keeping your feet planted firmly on the ground.
HUH! The Dow hit 10,000 a decade ago. It has done nothing in the past 10 years and at that time I bought gold that has tripled.
I think we just proved ourselves smarter than the entire us government. Not a hard task.
It’s not just Nancy Pelosi who’s pointing fingers at the Republicans as the culprit on this so-called “financial meltdown. Did anyone watched the Factor last night when Sen. Kerry was spewing out the “blame the Republicans and the adminstration” mantra? That was Sen. Kerry’s answer to Bill’s statement that the Dems were in control of both houses and did not act on the warnings of the administration and Sen. McCain on Fannie & Freddie’s impending implosion if stricter oversight is not imposed.
I am starting to rethink the reasons that I jumped off the ledge and killed myself yesterday….. I may not have made a rational decision.
It is not prudent to think we have hot bottom. Investors are still assuming that a “rescue” will get done later this week and noone really knows the extent of the
As I see it, the credit crunch will lead to a recession because people will no longer get funny money to buy things they cannot afford. 2/3 of our economy is based on consumer spending and consumers have been spending more than have.
Did anyone see O’Reilly last night ? I don’t know the name of the woman who was on it but she was practically in hysterics and in true Chicken Little form. We had to turn it off because she was practically raving about how horrible all this was and pretty much saying it was the end!
I have been saying for a long time that the housing boom and the economic boom would have to slow at some point. It happens – the economy will have ups and downs and the markets do have to correct themselves at times. It isn’t the end of the world though!
I never understood how the media would critique every single “Study” about the economy, consumer confidence, consumer spending and then if it was down a little bit they’d start yelling “recession! the economy is falling apart!”
But if you look at the numbers – they would still be higher than they were 5 years ago when everyone was touting how great the economy had been. (I know I am not giving anything specific here, I have to get my son to an appt and I don’t really have time to look it up! I’m just trying to make a point and seeing if someone can explain it to me!)
“Manufactured crisis” thanks to the media and the politicians who are telling us it is going to be a crisis. Guess what people – life goes on! The world won’t be stopping because of this.
What did you expect from the little clowns that we continue to elect? You didn’t really expect them to A) Understand the situation B)Act, say, or do anything reasonable or C) respond in any way outside of their own personal-political interests DID YOU?
Between Media talking heads and our elected clowns ignorance and panic is always the offering.
Regardless of whether some sort of bailout goes through, reform must be pondered post-haste. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that idea.
Yet the matter of domestic oil drilling seems to be languishing.
yes mr p, gold looks great from 10 years to now, but for nine of those 10 years it did nothing while the stock market went up 100% in those nine years.
I agree with all of you who are commenting on this. The mask is starting to wear off, and the real Obama is showing through. Evil is ugly.
As long as Pelosi doesn’t open her piehole, we may see a nice recovery this week….WITHOUT A BAILOUT!
Good morning vickisoup! There are some people who recognize evil and others who don’t. Remember when Pres. Bush said he looked into Putin’s eyes and saw a good soul? He was wrong. However, he does recognize the evil of terrorism, so I’ll give him a pass on the Putin thing. I am convinced that those on the left can’t recognize evil and therefore can’t acknowledge it when it is right in front of them. Evil takes many forms, including the immorality that is going on in Hollywood…and those who are caught up in it don’t have a clue.
Sorry I am so off topic. I will get back to the issue at hand! I just heard a House Republican on FOX say that if the Republicans don’t vote yes on the bill on Thursday, the dems will probably just pass it without them…but not until they put the earmarks back in, including the ACORN funding! They can do it, too! Just watch them.
Sshhhhh….the ban expires tonight….sshhhhh….
I agree something needs to be done – just not what was proposed. And I have no idea what to suggest as I really don’t understand it all too well either!
Someone mentioned drilling – I still think we could really help boost our economy and help our own energy “crisis”
Wait, where the heck id the energy crisis go? Why isn’t it still in the news?! What about global warming? Where’s Gore been? Why isn’t he shoving carbon credits down our throats still?
Shooting barrel fish, actually…
as does illegal immigration which has played a huge part in this mess…no ss#, stated income loans, etc = illegal aliens….
Old Texan (#88), thanks for your comment. I’m glad to know that somebody clicked the link (comment #77)and read the article. It’s important for everyone know this information!
Everybody else who hasn’t yet, PLEASE, go read the article at American thinker.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html
NO BAILOUT!!
I was hoping the crisis that would drive this election would be energy. That way, there was at least a smidgeon of a chance that the muddled middle of the American electorate would perk up just enough to prevent OBummer from getting into the White House.
Alas, the replacement crisis is now mortgage bailout socialism, and enough of the muddle middle actually believes “hard-line Republicans” are to blame.
Next stop: Pelosi/Reid/Obama
That is the legacy left to us by spineless RINO’s and the leftwing lackeys in the Idiot Media.
Don’t get too comfortable yet. When a correction like this hits, it takes a few days to completely run its course. The markets going up today because people see buying opportunities. Tomorrow they’ll sell to capitalize on those gains. Give it a week or two and that’s where the true level will be.
Forgive me for using Wikipedia as my quickie source, but
in 1995, the Dow was at 5000.
In 1999—10000, doubling in five years.
After 9-11—lower-7000’s.
Last year—double that: a 40% increase from 1999.
The dip yesterday brought us close to the 1999 level. That 10000 level was considered prosperous in 1999. Why is it a disaster now?
The problem with that is the bailout is hugely unpopular with a majority of voters. The Dems NEED the GOP to go along with this, so they can pass blaim when it doesn’t work. If they pass it themselves it is potentially political suicide.
Sylvia,
I read the article. It pretty much solidifies what we have been saying all along. However, the majority of people here get that and aren’t the ones who need to be convinced of it.
Obama’s dangerous policies… that is.
Wow…am I off today
I saw John “F”ing Kerry on O’reilly last night. I had forgotten what a truly sleazy windbag that jerk really is! He really makes me physically ill. I understand a bit more about BDS because I have KDS big time. Everything that came out of this mouth was a lie. O’Reilly tried to get in a word edgewise and Kerry wouldn’t let him. O’Reilly! Almost a bigger windbag than Kerry, but at least he is honest.
And to tiredofit08 (#118): Yep. Can’t forget that.
Bingo. They need the GOP to provide cover. Then they can come out against the bill when the backlash comes, knowing the MSM will not point out it was their bill.
I think the markets are taking a breather until the House reconvenes on Thursday. The damage isnt done yet. I wouldnt give short shrift to what may happen to stocks should nothing happen on Thursday. We are far from out of the woods yet.
Ha! Good one!
We wait with baited breath.
Michelle, Don’t get snarky yourself about this… It’s very unbecoming. The facts are that more EU banks had to be rescued yesterday. Dexia in Belgium received a 6.4 bn Euro bailout yesterday to keep it afloat. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7643638.stm
Iceland nationalized Glitnir Bank with an investment of 600m Euros. This bank was having SHORT TERM FUNDING ISSUES. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7641753.stm Sound familiar?
Now, today is Jewish New Year, and trading is expected to be light here, but come October 3rd when companies have to make their first October week-end payroll, this might get a little more interesting. If people are buying stocks today, it’s likely they’re buying MFG or Tech stocks, and not Bank or Investment stocks.
Yesterday, nearly 2 BILLION shares of stock were sold for LESS than what they were offered, steering the market down. It took 45 minutes for the ticker to catch up with the closing bell, and there was a flurry of downward trades at the last minute. A small gain when the market opens in response to big drop is common, as was exhibited in 1929 crash. The trend analysis of that drop looked like a jagged saw’s edge.
I believe Friday is also the day the national unemployment numbers are revealed, right?
Off topic but this is where we are headed under Obama.
Food rationing to stop “global warming”
Was that a Bawney Fwank Freudian slip? I believe that was the name of the boyfriend that was running the male prostitute ring out of his house…
Great timing, when they are on recess! I love it! However, if Obama gets elected and dems stay in power, drilling will not happen. Unless, of course, the American People speak out loud and clear like we did with the amnesty bill and now the bail-out. Power to the People!
Is there a reason why the Networks have been covering this “Financial Crisis” the way they have. Do some of the Networks have an invested interest in the outcome of the Bail Out Bill? Not innocent bystanders?
http://chickaboomer.blogspot.com/2008/09/media-stocks-suck.html
I got a big BANG, yesterday, listening to the PUNDITS tell us the SKY IS FALLING… Just like the CHICKEN in the story, they had no clue… Market DOWN 800 POINTS at one time… Never a mention of PERSPECTIVE… Bad day??? YES… Record breaking??? Only in terms of POINTS… Not even in TOP 10 in percentage… But, man did OIL PLUMMET!!! Still against the BAILOUT??? You bet… Let the market correct itself… If we do it is over in 8 to 12 months… If GOVERNMENT gets involved 18 months to 3 years minimum… SELF CORRECT!!!
Thanks for the great link. I read enough to know I want to read the whole thing when I have more time. I printed it out and will read it in entirety in my second office where I can be alone with my thoughts (in case you don’t know about the second office, it is the bathroom and a great place to get reading done!)
We would already be there if Gore had been elected President in 2000!!
That was just an off-the-wall interview. He was mad about something, but I couldnt figure out what exactly he was mad about; other than he was trapped because the Dems that are the root cause of this entire problem.. He was just spouting political ‘Its Bush’s fault from the failed policies of the last 7 years’.
If he would just give facts, rather than emotion, then maybe I would have been interested in what he was saying. But then I realize its John Kerry – and I dont want to hear what he says.
7thson (#115): Shoot, you’re right. Forget I said anything, which is what people normally do when I talk, anyway.
Forget this, too: also according to my source, yesterday ranked 18th on the list of highest point percentage drops. On October 27, 1997, the market dropped over 550 points to 7161, ranking 13th on the percentage list. The first day of trading after 9-11 ranks 15th.
Ups n’ downs. Markets do that.
I think the opposition to the (bail out) is rooted deep in conservative America because:
There is a deep distrust in Government.
Conservatives came into power on the Contract with America. (including President Bush)
Then so many elected leaders crossed the isle , hugged, and suddenly huge government is getting bigger , and bigger.
On issue after issue, teachers union, airport security (government control)
Scooter put in jail, border guards in jail (instead of drug dealer), National Security leaks and Not one person charged.
Liberals lying and out enemies use it against us.
I know this is an over simplification, however, no one is ever held accountable except conservatives and the last time I checked it was against the law to lie to Government not for the Government to lie to me.
Another good article from a Harvard economist.
This is SO RIGHT-ON! I printed your whole comment because it bears repeating. Unfotunately, our candidate, John McCain, reaches across the aisle and gets a$$ handed to him. He sees it as compromise, I see it as giving in. I wish we had a better candidate. I do admire McCain, and will vote for him. But he really really frustrates me! Speaking of border guards in jail…do you think they will get pardoned? They’d better!!!
I am calling as many of the congresspersons on the list of NO votes and expressing my support for their stand.
I strongly urge everyone who can afford to to send contributions to these people for current or future elections. Well, except for the far lefties! Let’s let them know with our pocketbooks that we support them!
and thats why he will, in all probability, lose the election.
McCain really blew it… AGAIN… in supporting this pig-out at the taxpayers expense.
If we wanted bipartisanship we wouldn’t care who we voted for!!
McCain is on a Fox Web Stream talking to a round (rectangular) table about the bailout and things affecting the economy and “MAIN STREET”… (shudder)
He seemed to be pitching ethanol but not subsidies but was proposing a $5000 tax credit for buyers of alternate fuel or fuel efficient vehicles.
Then they went on to how much was lost in 401Ks yesterday. Some panelist said $850 billion. That’s interesting because someone quoted the market capitalization lost was about $1.2 trillion.
Seems unlikely to me that 71% of the money in the market can be found in 401K accounts. What I see here is more…
BE AFRAID… BE AFRAID…
We know about the turmoil in the markets. Fix it if you must but do it without making taxpayers foot the bill in the biggest expansion of socialism in 100 years.
When I started watching though, it sounded promising, like he was saying.. and in fact a panelist WAS saying.. that the biggest issue small businesses have right now if energy costs. Fix that.. says one panelist and you’ll make a huge difference… I’m paraphrasing.
But then the went onto BE AFRAID… YOUR 401K is MELTING!!!!
Does anyone else wonder who that hobo that stole Barney Frank’s clothes is and how they let him into Congress and onto the floor?
How?
Striking down a socialist proposal in and of itself doesn’t do all that. The House Republicans are to be congratulated and thanked for what they did with this proposal, but I haven’t seen a proposal from them that would divest the federal government of its involvement in people’s financial affairs, which is the ONLY thing that would do both.
RWR
http://www.rightwingrocker.com
lgm – Are you aware that there are other “actual economists” who differ with the chicken little scenario? “Real economists” who think bankruptcy for some in fact is EXACTLY what is needed.
I’m sure if your faith is in other humans or governments or money or even yourself, it all is very disconcerting. The solution is to place your faith in something worthy of that faith. Somebody who not only claimed to be GOD, but in fact is GOD.
Yeah! What he said. The market will correct itself. People like Bernacke and Paulson are playing financial gods, but it is all in vain. The laws of economics won’t be defeated by mere mortals!
Oops! Ok, back to reality:
Interest rates need to rise. It’s really odd that nobody wonders why, if credit is so hard to get, interest rates aren’t rising?
The answer is because Bernacke won’t allow it, which skews the market and leaves us with the mess we’re in now. No credit left.
Economics 101: Price controls create shortages. Bernacke is trying to control the price of borrowing money, and look – now there’s a shortage.
Those who have retired recently or will retire soon should already have their accounts in stable plans. For the rest of us, who cares? It’s way too soon to complain about money we won’t use for years.
Congress on a two-day recess. Dow up 298 as I write this, allegedly on “hopes” of a bailout, even after seeing yesterday’s vote for one go down in flames.
For such a huge, dire crisis, the actions of a great many sure would indicate otherwise – including some of those screaming loudest.
Arguing economics with a liberal?
Why bother?
What you should use is this:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/chart.html?symb=djia&sid=1643&time=10yr&Submit1=Refresh
It gives a chart of the Dow for a decade. The Dow hit 10,000 in 1999, and in fact went over 11,000, and stayed in the 10 to 11,000 range for about 3 years. Then we had the web bomb. Nasdaq went from over 5000 to under 2000, and now is in the 2000 to 2500 range (50 percent from its highs in 2000). After the .bomb came 9/11 followed by the housing bubble that burst 2 years ago. The DOW is now right where it was 9 years ago.
Bingo. I got $1.00 for $1.00 match on my 401k funds, plus almost 20 years of growth. The company match alone made it worthwhile.
And it’s not going anywhere soon.
I am happy to see a little dip in the market – this is a buying opportunity.
Errah Kerry is pissed because he probably has a lot of Lehmann, Bear Sterns and AIG stock. At least he now has enough gift wrap for the book he Co-authored with his wife, This Moment on Earth: Today’s New Environmentalists and Their Vision for the Future, to be published in March 2007. He’ll be giving those away to staff till the cow’s come home. There only so many copies of this drivel that one can use to line a parakeet’s cage errah.
It is a disaster for a couple reason. The DOW itself is a moving target and one of its members just went bankrupt. If you bought stock at the higher prices, you lost a lot of money. If you bought stock 10 years ago, you broke even, while your money has lost about 50 percent of its value. 9 years ago I took a 3 percent annuity rather than invest in stocks. That 3 percent puts me about 30 percent higher than it would have been in the DOW.
And I’ve been listening to the pundits gleefully exclaim that there was really no good reason for the returns the Dow was giving us for 3 years now.
It’s a long term investment strategy. If you’re going to whine every time the market corrects itself, maybe you’re better suited for the bond market.
Errah, Congress in session, 700 point drop. Congress on holiday recess, market rebounding. Very interesting . . . errah.
Bailout would mark return of Marx’s ideals:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/09/29/bailout-marks-karl-marx-s-comeback.aspx
Just because the Dow takes a big dive, that doesn’t necessarity mean any particular individual lost money. It depends on what stocks you own. Some companies are still profitable! My spouse and I have been retired for about one year. We have a good financial advisor and we have diversified. Some of our money is still in the market and it will stay there. The rest is safer, although nothing is certain these days. I too put my faith in the Lord. I also suggest we pray every day for the election, and for our country!
The people who will lose money in the long run are the ones panicking. The Stock Market has risks, and everyone with a couple of brain cells knows that.
If you can’t afford the risk, you shouldn’t have taken the risk!
Errah Heres a riddle, . . . If a congressman/senator is on holiday recess, does a wall street lobbyist still crap in the Capitol?
I am so sick of people thinking everything in life should be risk-free and easy.
Life is not for the faint of heart! It’s not supposed to be. People only have a chance to grow through adversity. If nothing was ever difficult or never carried risk, we would all be spoiled rotten little babies and life would be BORING beyond comprehension.
More of that entitlement mentality leaking over to the right. No, you’re not entitled to a profit.
Even in the stock market.
BTW, I absolutely love this line from the Levin post that Michelle excerpted above:
Damn straight. New term for the faint-of-hearters: Starbuck’s conservatives.
Fixed it for ya!
Let’s see who should I give my money too?
If I give it to my investment banker he will try and make money with it for me. Why? Because he gets a cut of whatever he makes for me. I make some money. He does that with a 100 people like me and he makes LOTS of money. The more my investment grows the more return we both get.
If I give the money to the government, if they spend it on welfare 28 cents out of each dollar gets to a welfare recipient. If they spend it on the bailout a yet to be determined slice gets shuttled of to the AFL-CIO pension fund, NEA pension fund, ACORN, state and local pension funds, auto loans, student loans, etc. etc. etc. Got to keep the irresponsible constiuients happy and the local pols.
So where am I going to get a return and who will work harder to get the economy back to speed quicker; that starving investment banker or the fat cat in D.C. spreading my money around to stay in power?
Ya sure, makes sense to give my dollars to our beloved Congress. NOT!
Dems always manufacture an economic crisis at election time. It is that simple. The confusing part is why the so-called Republicans like Bush & Co. helped them do so this time around.
They all need to go. They are all corrupt and incompetent and frankly, stupid. Vote them all out. Vote 3rd party this year.
We need to SHOUT IT from the mountain tops that we oppose socialism, nationalizing the financial system is WRONG, stupid, and TOTALLY outside the bounds of what is constitutional! We must FLOOD politicians AND media with the message:
We will not sell our children’s future for 30 or 700 BILLION pieces of silver, we will not trade away our freedom for “financial stability”, even if Wall Street does not survive we will survive Wall Street.
THIS IS A SCAM!
Keep saying it guys, NO TO SOCIALISM
Call McCain campaign 703-418-2008 ext 6, say “no socialism for wall street or main street, even at risk of depression- NO TO SOCIALISM!”
Leftists don’t want to make life “risk-free” as much as “consequence-free.” They are okay with people taking risks as long as they can avoid the consequences by socializing the costs of the consequences when the risk assumed proves to have been poorly calculated.
Errah, Marco Polo, LOL Thanks!
OT– there was a video that someone on here linked too. It was about the subprime thing (talked about the CRA), and it was mostly text with clips of news articles in between frames of text. It has been taken down, and I’m trying to find it. Who posted it?
Errah, Marco Polo, The answer to both is YES!
That’s why government programs don’t have an opt-out clause.
Reall, if these properties are such great deals, why not put some Social Security money into them? I mean, that’s money that isn’t being used right now, right?
And the investment gains could solve the future solvency issues that fund faces, right?
Isn’t that just a win-win?
Good post! Ditto!
On September 30th, 2008 at 9:53 am, SylviaMarie said:
If you haven’t read it already, this article at American Thinker is a must read: Barack Obama and the Strategy of Manufactured Crisis by James Simpson.
Thank you for the link. James Simpson’s article is a MUST READ for everyone who wants to prevent our nation’s slide to Socialism. Read and spread the word before it’s too late.
Errah, It’s really a trick question because all lobbyist are crap whether they are in the Capitol or not.
One thing I am noticing on MM’s blog and the comments by everyone (except lgm). Conservatives are, by nature, very upbeat and optomistic people. I thank God every day that I am a conservative!!
Was it “Burning Down The House?” There’s a new version out that doesn’t use the song that appears to have infringed on Warner Brothers’ rights.
Here’s version 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6fuFrdCJY
Additional comment about Conservatives…we are witty and have a great sense of humor. Have you noticed that is sadly lacking on the left?
I believe vickisoup posted it. At you tube it could be found at Naked Emperor News.
WarEagle – You’re right, you make a good point! But some posting here are supposedly conservatives who are jumping on the risk-free, consequence-free bandwagon.
They need to straighten out their thinking!