How Catholic money funded Obama’s community organizing
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It’s because of things like this that I no longer give directly to the Catholic Church.
I decide how my charitable donations should be spent by giving directly to the charities.
Let the irrational Catholic Bashing Begin!
Bigots, on your marks, get set, GO!
separation of church and state?
I like the part about:
given all the scandals…uh huh..the catholic church has had a strong liberation theology component for a long time.
in this they are like the world council of churches….the american friends service committee…CINOs…radical communists…
Just a reminder, those “Catholic” charities are not representative of the mainstream Catholics – not the majority in any event, and not any more than Pelosi, Biden, Fleger (spit!) and Kennedy are.
And also note, the revelation of these abuses is coming from WITHIN the parishes, by the real Catholics in their parishes, not the political collectivists that purport to represent the Church.
Why not cut out the middleman and just give the money to Planned Parenthood?
Did it have anything to do with Pfleger I wonder?
Ordinary Coloradan:
My sentiments exactly but that won’t stop Catholicism haters, I’m afraid. They never look beyond their own Catholic bashing blinders.
Ordinary Coloradan
I understand your feeling that Catholics never do anything wrong – because they are Catholic after all. But all the Catholics I know outside of this board are voting for Obama (proudly and loudly).
I ask about abortion, they just say, ‘well I disagree with him on abortion, but I’m going to vote for him’.
Meanwhile, aren’t we fortunate to have heard directly from the Vatican today concerning the global economic crisis. Yes, that’s right, the pope basically said money is bad and you should only focus on God instead of money.
The pope never recommended cutting your 10% tithe however.
Bottom line, churches should be for preaching from the Bible and bringing people to Christ, and defending Christians’ right to believe in Christ around the world without fear of punishment.
Instead, we have a whole bunch of political churches that ignore the mission given to the church by Jesus of EVANGELISM – Go unto the four corners of the earth and be fishers of men.
1 cross plus 3 nails = 4 givenss
This needs clarification Michelle.
First and foremost – the links both lead to CATHOLIC news publications, revealing the goings-on about these donations. So it is CATHOLICS outing other Catholics.
Second, the program that did this – Catholic Campaign for Human Development, put in place by liberal bishops on the USCCB, is a terrible and – in my opinion – un-Catholic program. It supports, among other things, contraception and abortion.
We do not give money to it and, as much as priests and bishops who don’t like CCHD can, they avoid it. In Chicago, the ushers practically ran down the aisle when they were ordered to take a collection for CCHD – they had no donations in their baskets.
Third, there are Catholics out there – like Pelosi, Kennedy, Biden, and Pfleger – who are voting for Obama because they don’t understand Catholic teaching.
Many, many, many Catholics oppose this. I have been one of the more ardent Obama opponents.
Catholics don’t tithe. That’s a Protestant thing.
And, please, don’t misinterpret what the Pope says. He was talking about what happens when you replace God with money, and make money a god.
Which is, quite frankly, what caused the financial mess we’re in.
Michelle: Please watch the comments. More unhinged Catholic bashing is coming.
I’m Catholic and I would NEVER vote for a man that supports infanticide, goes to a racist church for 20 years, and associate with terrorists and other criminals.
Each one of those are deal breakers for me. And Obama has all three.
Obama supports are:
1) Morons
2) Have very low character requirements
3) Are of low moral character themselves
4) All of the Above
Right there with you on that JT!. But you don’t have to be Catholic to agree with you.
why is talking about this equated with catholic bashing? is talking about the WCC and their support of communists all around the world protestant bashing?
right4life: Re-read #10. Little to do with the topic at hand, lots to do with misquoting the Pope and criticisms of us Catholics not teaching the Bible.
And I’m willing to bet you $100 bucks it gets worse from here on out.
99% of the people at my parish oppose Obama. It makes many, many of us angry when the few who do show up with Obama bumper stickers or Obama pins. So the Catholic support of Obama is not as widespread as some claim.
And I’m not going to sit by, be told to shut up and vote for McCain, while my faith is bashed.
I’m a Southern Baptist (EnglishQueen, every two weeks a check equal to 1/10th of my paycheck goes into the offering plate) and abortion is one of the primary reasons I would never support Barack HUSSEIN Obama. For that matter, almost any Democrat.
My Preacher, or Sunday School class teacher, has never made any statement about how we should vote, only that we should register and do so.
Nothing against Catholics on a personal level but some nominally Catholic organizations are socialist and helping ruin this country. Catholilc Charities works very hard to import tens of thousands of Muslim Somalil “refugees” each year and earns a pretty penny from each one they bring in. Remeber it’s the Somalis that are causing so much trouble in MN, TN, ME, and CA
This is just great! The Church in Chicago has provided financial support for decades for the most extreme example of what a high-ranking Vatican official sees as “the party of death”. The right hand should have known what the left hand was doing. The right hand should put an end to it.
the truth is though that there are a lot of protestants and catholics that will vote for obama. the influence of liberation theology within the catholic church has had an effect, just as the liberal teaching within many protestant churches.
I used to belong to a ELCA church, and while they seemed fairly conservative, they sent money to the National council of churches, and the world council of churches, which I considered communist front groups…I left that church.
so what happens in a single parish, church, really doesn’t matter. and I’m afraid there are more people like fleger, and the rev. joan brown campbell than we would like to admit.
thats why I go to a fundamentalist church that has nothing to do with these large religious instititions..they tend to corrupt quicky…
Some of the reactions here give cover to the MSM’s continuing downplaying of this and every other murky part of Osama Obama’s past.
Catholics say “oh, be careful! We’re talking about Catholics and that comes close to Catholic-bashing!”
The Catholics who were/are involved in this insidious exercise of “liberation theology” deserve to be bashed!
I’m certain the Jews who think rationally are upset as hell that the suicidal “liberal/social” Jews back Obama the anti-Semite, too. But if anyone digs into that, they’ll claim its persecution.
Man up, Catholics. If you haven’t been willing to expose the vipers in your midst, don’t complain when others do it.
It’s not a slam at you. It is an exposure of those who use Catholicism for evil ends.
and if you don’t remember joan brown campbell she was the ‘reverend’ who helped return elian to castro…she’s a fellow-travelling b….
If you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, then you are part of the body of Christ. Let’s try to avoid having one part of the body fighting against another part of the body.
Let’s focus our attention on those who claim to be part of the body, but then support things Jesus Christ would never support…like abortion and infanticide.
Ask Barack Hussein Obama, Joe Biden, or even John McCain to confess with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord”. I believe they can’t do it, even though their salvation depends on it. I believe the only one of the four who would be willing to confess, “Jesus is Lord” is Sarah Palin.
Go ahead, candidates… prove me wrong.
Interesting. I just went to Wikipedia and did a little research on Saul Alinsky. Anyone know of any counter-tactics to his rules?
MrScribbler – Michelle’s links are to Catholic publications. Looks like we are exposing the vipers after all!
RedPill – Amen to that!!
Excerpts from this website:
http://www.cybercatholics.com/-2-2-2-2/marxist-infiltration-in-catholic-insight-magazine
Hell awaits those who deceive in our saviours name for political or finacial gain.
‘Give unto Ceasar’ no longer means anything. The courts have long since been bought and owned by liberals. The Aulinsky movement has made targets of people of faith. Democrats then scream ‘Separation of Church and State!’ to the high heavens while proclaiming to Blacks and Hispanics who they ‘must’ vote for, ignoring the tenets of their faith.
Hipocracy, have you no bounds?!
Most Catholics I know are very lib and very pro-obama. Every time I ask them how they can reconcile their religious beliefs with their intent to vote for obama’s baby-kill agenda, they can’t give me viable answer.
Any Catholics on this blog that can explain why their Catholic brethren even belong to a religion that’s supposed to be pro-baby but keep voting in the baby killers?
ok now what? does the catholic church stop supporting them? and if not, what do you do? do you walk out, as I did with the ELCA?
Oh, I don’t disagree. Which is why – here and elsewhere – I’m an ardent opponent of anything that undermines or detracts from the Church’s teaching (like women priests and abortion).
But often I see conservatives, who’d look at anything in the MSM with a skeptical eye, buy whole-hog something that portrays the Church in a negative light.
Tre: I budget a certain allotment to my Church too. It isn’t 10%, but it is what I can give. I also give a lot of my time and talent to supporting the parish. I just wanted to clarify that the Church doesn’t have a tithe policy.
I am, for the most part, as conservative as they come. But my faith comes before a political party and – if needs be – my country.
I don’t disagree with this, either. In fact, I’ve been a thorn in the side of our archdiocese in getting them to stop making contributions to CCHD.
There are many Catholic blogs out there who oppose the CCHD and the folks who support liberal theology.
Very true. But I was referring to some of the above comments.
The “liberation theology” efforts in/funded by the Catholic church continue, though. If I were in the congregation, I’d be working pretty hard to ensure that they are stopped, even if that went against the hierarchy, and that seems to be something many Catholics aren’t yet ready to face.
ErinF – that is a very good question, and one that I unfortunately cannot answer. I do think that southern Catholics tend to be more conservative, though – it seems that most in my parish are probably voting the pro-life ticket. Our priest is very conservative, and has the past couple of weeks been very explicit that it is our duty as servants of the Lord to protect those who are most innocent – namely unborn babies. He doesn’t tell us who we should vote for, but I mean, who else but McCain/Palin for goodness sake?
I’m a Catholic (observant) and it DISGUSTS me. Perhaps the Pope should be informed about it. I’m sure he wouldn’t be pleased. Perhaps some influential (rich, powerful) Catholics out there who have connections can inform him. True he has been bashing Capitalism lately, but he wouldn’t be happy with those monies going towards pro abortion or pro homosexual agenda “things”…
BTW I have intimate knowledge about Evangelicalism as my brother is a convert to it, and no offense but I have been to your services and nothing there draws me. (nada, zilch) Not bashing, just stating how I feel about that.
Because – as I said earlier – they don’t understand Catholic teaching and choose to ignore it. Teaching is clear: abortion is a non-negotiable issue. You cannot support or advocate it in any way, including voting for politicians.
The Catholics who do think there are more important issues – like ending the war or “social justice.”
You leave a church when you disagree with the fundamental teachings of that church. In Catholicism, the fundamental teachings have not changed.
It is the individual parishes and bishops that cause a problem. I would certainly leave the parish for another one that is orthodox.
And the trend in the Church is that conservative, orthodox parishes do much better than liberal parishes. Same for seminaries and onvents.
Fortunately, my diocese is also quite conservative, and we are not asked to donate to CCHD. I’m glad the light is being shown on this problem in other dioceses – hopefully, those bishops will wake up!
I can only say that , as a practitioner of the Tridentine rite, I know Catholics who are flaming liberal and pro sanctuary, but that doesn’t mean that the Faith is such. American Catholicism has been reeking of liberal priests and such…. tradition needs to be returned as the Pope is so strongly doing at present.
Libtards learned years ago that soft hearted religious folks would do anything “for the poor”, and we’ve been being used by them for years. Saul Alinsky taught those “principles”. Looking at any statistic of who gives what to charity, our side leads it HUGELY! We need to look in to whom we are giving our largess, by looking at where that money GOES! Since they have no conscience, they have no compunction about misusing it!
With all due respect, this is factually wrong. I’m Catholic, and tithing is frequently discussed in our church.
This is exactly what I’ve run into with a few Catholics in my parish – hopefully they’ve been listening to Father’s homilies!
Sorry, Tom.
Somebody is confused at your church.
Tithing just ain’t Catholic. The buzz word is stewardship.
Just a thought – and a prayer – from God’s Word:
That’s John 17:20-26 (New International Version)
I’m not Catholic, but really folks, shouldn’t we be concentrating on what unites us rather than on what can – but ought not – divide us?
And not just as Christians.
For what it’s worth, I do not think that Michelle’s point was to bash Catholics, but rather to illustrate how that church has been taken advantage of by certain forces that do not care about the Gospel of Christ.
Just as certain Protestant churches have have lost their first love.
Just my two bits.
I agree – Michelle links to Catholic sights. It is, however, a trend on conservative blogs to bash Catholics when these topics come up. And that bothers me.
I’m all for focusing what we agree on – especially when it comes to Obama and abortion – but I can’t shut my mouth when my faith is misinterpreted.
You mean like the two Catholic publications that Michelle linked in her post? FAIL
No, people are not just confused at my church. The confusion is everywhere. The Catholic church in general encourages tithing, but doesn’t require it. And the buzzwords tithing and stewardship have been used interchangeably for as long as I’ve been Catholic.
Bottom line, we’re arguing semantics. We can all agree that Catholics give a certain amount of their money to the church, no matter what the appropriate term or definition is.
Do not put up with the leftists in your diocese – complain, file complaints against them under Canon 1039 and 915.
Demand investigation of these crypto-socialists wolves in sheep’s clothing.
As for the vote:
Do what your well-formed conscience demands of you. Which is to say, do not put a man that willingly and enthusiastically supports intrinsically evil acts into the White House. That’s Barack Obama, the abortionist’s friend, support of embryonic stem cell research.
My answer when asked if I will vote for Barack Obama is the same as my Archbishop: I can not, and I will not. (Archbishop Charles Chaput, Denver)
i think that we all need some pause, as this shows how when our leaders in any area of our life provide blanket acceptance to anything without proper vetting. this does not really sound like a catholic thing, but a deceiver that has found a way to deceive the sheep. what good catholics need to do is make sure that their giving does not go to fund these types of groups. i believe this can be done by speaking to the leaders at their individual churches and exposing this group.
God calls us to be wise stewards of His money, cause after all, if you are a servant anything you have is His and should belong to Him. I think that is what the Pope meant. If I were a Catholic, I would go to my priest and want to know if any of my funds were being given to this group and if so, find a new Church to attend and give my money there. What I like about my Church is the fact that I can designate where I want my funds to go 1) missions, 2) feed the hungry 3) bldg maintenance, etc. After all, it is MY responsibility to know where God’s money is going even when I drop it in the plate at Church!
I’m with you there englishqueen. My own experience with people who are Catholic has shown that there are those who are true Christians, and those who are what we in the Protestant tradition might call pew warmers; they attend church, go through all the motions, but don’t live the faith.
Would I condemn the church body as a whole – Protestant or Catholic – for the actions of some? No, I would not, though I would hope that those guilty of wrong actions would be held to account.
No church is perfect, but the one in whom we believe was and is, and we strive, this side of heaven, to be more like Him, in our actions and in our love for one another.
Blessings and peace – and may God grant us all wisdom and discernment.
Yup. I’m with you there.
At my church this past Sunday the sermon was about the right to vote and the obligation to vote in line with the church’s teachings. The priest did not promote one candidate over the other but explained why you should not vote for an individual.
We shouldn’t have one member of my parish voting for Obama.
On October 6th, 2008 at 4:37 pm, Skywise said:
Yes.
Two part answer: 1) Spirtual, 2) Worldly
1) Spiritual – Alinsky, in the front matter of Rules for Radicals, gave an explicit acknowledgment to Lucifer. This is spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:12) and you should put on the whole armor of God.
2) Worldly – Do as Soviet defector Yuri Bezmenov recommended, and as Ronald Reagan did. That actually comes back to the spiritual point…Reagan was so effective because he was not afraid to call evil exactly what it was/is…evil.
Just some notes for McCain for tomorrow night’s debate…
While I’m disappointed by this “revelation” it won’t stop me from checking out the RCIA class at local church tomm.
The parish seems conservative enough not to fall for the liberation theology garbage.
On October 6th, 2008 at 4:39 pm, Southpaw said:
Bingo!
And you know who else hates Christians?
Islamic Jihadists.
Now do you understand why Russia is an observer of the “57 states” of the OIC (whose flag contains the words “Allahu Akbar” are written in modern Arabic calligraphy)?
This is an interesting thread. As a devout Catholic, I’m very much in the englishqueen01 corner (queen – your responses were both wise and gentle). We have no doubt experienced some of the same “bashing” – generally from Faiths we should/do consider family.
Ordinary Coloradan mentioned Archbishop Charles Chaput – an extraordinary man. Perhaps he could shed some light on the donation of our money to groups that do not espouse our fundamental beliefs?
cubbiegal, where are you located? I might be able to suggest a good parish – especially if you live where I think you live…
This could worse than Reverend Wright. The Catholics an anti American group that opposed the war on terror (invasion of Iraq). It figures that these same far left radicals would support the fringe candidate who’s stuck at around 50% in the polls.
No, we didn’t, lgm. It was never an official position of the Church. Go and read the Catechism, specifically the “Just War” criteria.
Nice try, but stick to topics you do understand.
englishqueen01 (#60) Two Popes condemned the US invasion of Iraq.
Darn Papists!
As you say, the problem is the church leadership rather than the people in the pews. But the church, as an institution, has been taken over by leftists.
It is time for the conservatives and moderates to reclaim the Catholic church from the extremists. Much like what needs to be done with our country, IMHO.
It is those Catholics who need to be active, vocal and pushback.
The status quo is no longer an option.
EnglishQueen01
I live in “Dearbornistan South”-
West Rogers Park.
The parish near me is down the street from a mosque and very liberal-both no no’s.
I’m attending a parish in Evanston.
LGM
you don’t know about the Catechism.. and you don’t know Latin.. may I say one thing… unless you are faithful to the Church( as we Catholics call it) just shut up and travel on. I am dealing with a rather nasty flu and am not tolerant of attacks. Mortuum Mundo…. Vivuum in Christo
And, recently, as pointed out in this thread, Pope Benedict talked about the futility of money? Does this obligate all Catholics to empty their bank accounts?
I think not.
Those were the opinions of the Popes, but not official Church teaching.
So, once again, nice try.
For what it’s worth, the Catholics I know – and I know a lot – wouldn’t vote for Obama drunk and on a bet.
Okay, I thought “cubbiegal” was a nod to the Chicago Cubs, putting you in Chicago. Michigan…let me see.
I’d have to get back to you on good parishes in that area. Through the blogs, we know quite a few Catholics throughout the nation – good, faithful, sensible folk.
If you’re looking at the RCIA program, are you a convert or returning to the Church? Either way, welcome. As a fellow convert, I understand the journey. God bless you.
I’m in Chicago-West Rogers Park is on the northside-and it’s a very muslim neighborhood.
Um, maybe you should ask a Jew.
I am extremely disappointed in the Jewish community at large. The Reform and Humanist Jews are into practically anything goes, IMO. The Conservative Jews are flirting with apostasy as well – discussions about ordaining open homosexuals and performing “commitment ceremonies” have been going on for the past several years, in spite of the original Hebrew (as in Direct From God) calls that behaviour an abomination.
I am NOT HAPPY that 2/3 of our membership will probably vote for Obama just because they hate Bush and not because they actually know anything at all about his background, “accomplishments” and policies.
Just like alot of people of other religions.
And Sarah Silverman should quit being so disrespectful of our elders. Telling the young Jews to fly down and tell their GRANDPARENTS how to vote is a disgrace to our people. They don’t all have Alzheimers…geesh!
Whoops – my bad. I have a terrible cold and my thinking is a little fuzzy (I almost typed “my fuzzy is a little thinking”, too).
I’d recommend St. John Cantius.
EnglishQueen01
I’m a Jewish-born Protestant.
I support the death penalty and birth control-and those views are non-negotiable.
Still-I’m curious.
The Lord will work the way HE wants.
Curious; discussed, or tithed?
I’ll check it out.
Thanks for the link.
RCIA is at St. Mary’s in Evanston.
The lefty church near the mosque is St. “Gerts”.
As another orthodox Catholic that frequents this site, I must agree with englishqueen and the others; people who are pro-abortion and yet call themselves Catholic are at best confused, and at worst heretical.
BTW, I must say that I sometimes feel a slight anti-Catholic bias from Michelle herself, but I may well be imagining it. Bias might be a bit strong, though. ‘Mistrust of motives’, perhaps?
LGM: You’re not doing yourself any favors with this. Yes, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken out against the war… but that is because it is war. War is _never_ a good option, but it may be a better option than any alternative. As others have said, looking up exactly what Just War is might enlighten you.
To all those who have experienced heterodox Catholics: I am sorry that America is so rife with them. I can assure you that Pope Benedict is dealing with the situation, as I have personally witnessed in my own diocese. I do believe Ed Morrissey at Hotair.com had a piece the other day that explained the Catholic position well.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the second point, and there are many sound reasons why the church teaches what she does on birth control.
However – on the death penalty, do not believe what liberals tell you. Like Just War criteria, there are parameters in which the death penalty is acceptable. The Church is not anti-death penalty.
Feel free to shoot me an e-mail if you have questions.
Thanks!
Cubbie: I would imagine that birth control will be the biggest point of discussion. Hopefully, though, they talk a very ‘building blocks’ approach to RCIA there. I know the one that I attended (though being a cradle Catholic) started with the question of whether God exists.
Jesus is what Christians agree on. Google search “Muslim to Christian” rendered a Muslim who converted due to Isaiah, in particular chapter 38, has converted Muslims, who do not read the new testament. His point; “If it was foretold 400 years before His birth, how can you not believe in Him?” Isaiah text discovered in the “dead sea scrolls” is identical to what is in today’s Bible.
oops, Muslims to Christians, if I left that in doubt.
Ulthwithian:
I had a dangerous pregnancy w/ my now teenage son and took the permanent cure in my late 20’s.
It was the right decision.
Since I can’t have anymore kids the point is moot anyway.
Like I said-the Lord will lead me where He wants.
Thanks*grin*
You’re not leaving many topics for lgm to talk about
I know LGM won’t comment on the difference of Obamas position on abortion and the Popes. He seldom answers to anything concrete. LGM what is your position on when the bible Mathew 24 says in the end days there will be an increase in war? Are you going to call the Lord a liar in that case? With Obamas choir praising him all the time makes me think that Obama could be the antichrist. I am not saying he is but someone will come out of now where and be totally loved by the world. Its good to keep knowing the Saviour more and more in these times so we don’t get fooled.
Before we left ChiTcago, my wife and I knew how rotten our catholic church had gotten. Instead of being about Christ it was all about the almighty dollar. Instead of the Bible it was all about supporting the Church. Instead of being a place of worship it had become a place of capital growth. A decent church goer was measured by the amount they funded the Church, not by fighting against live birth abortion per the teachings of the Bible.
I gave up on ChiTcago along with the Catholic Church, until I found a decent place of worship in our new community. Today I’m happy to attend church services, and I remain impressed and shocked by the fact that it is not at all easy to pass along a buck to our Priest, God bless him.
P.S.: I think Father Leo is a closet conservative.
P
A good Catholic friend of this old conservative Episcopalian told me about some of the Alinski organizers taking over his parish twenty years ago–this was the first time I heard about Saul and his cronies.
My friend held the traditional Catholic values–respect for life, respect for all people, belief in the Bible as God’s word and instruction for us. He went to another parish where God’s word still ruled–not man’s word.
Good Christians of all faiths believe the same basic precepts. Radical political agendas work against faith, and can lead one to Hell–if you still believe in the Bible teachings.
John Bibb
Several of the Catholic posters on this site protest too much. The instant I saw the word “Catholic” in the title, I knew there would be a bunch of posts bemoaning all of the supposed Catholic bashing. And there it begins, with post #2 no less. Hey, why bother waiting for Catholic bashing before complaining about it?
Grievance mongering? Check.
Perhaps it is this mentality that leads so many Catholics to support Obama? The “Reverends” Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would blush at the persecution complex that some have here. Didn’t at least one of you posting on this thread promise to leave this site some time ago over all of this supposed Catholic bashing?
/sarcasm on
Obviously, Michelle Malkin, her posters, and everyone in the conservative movement has a deep seated, irrational hatred for all things Catholic. Do not be fooled. Any criticism of the Catholic church, no matter how slight and/or accurate and/or constructive, is really just rantings of hatred towards Catholicism.
/sarcasm off
Trollman:
You’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m entitled to mine.
The criticism linked in this post is valid, and accurate, and comes from other Catholics. Me included.
But don’t kid yourself and pretend there isn’t a deep-seated hatred for Catholicism among some circles of conservativism. There is. I’ve experienced it first hand here and elsewhere. Anti-Catholicism has, unfortunately, been a part of this nation for pretty much its entire history.
Any time the Church says something that can be (inaccurately) interpreted as being “too liberal”, the attacks by conservatives begin.
And they rarely, if ever, stay on topic. It always descends into a discussion about theology, and how Catholics are un-Biblical and really don’t worship God and the Pope is the anti-Christ, etc. The valid protests of Catholics like me often go unread, unheard, and unheeded. (Which is ironic, because I’m willing to be a sizable sum that most churches have members of different stripes that stray from the church’s orthodoxy).
If I may be so bold as to speak for the other Catholics here – I’m not going to take it. I’m not going to sit by and let commenters here (liberal, conservative, or otherwise) inaccurately and maliciously malign my faith. It. Just. Ain’t. Happening.
This thread has been surprisingly civil and I’m pleased with that. Most of us here are in total agreement that the CCHD is bullsh– and not orthodox with the teachings of the Church. We are also focused on what unites us as we face possibly the biggest threat to religious freedom in an Obama election with a Democratic congress (see this Youtube video to understand what I mean).
That was me. But what I didn’t share was that several posters – Catholic and otherwise – e-mailed me privately and asked me not to leave. So I decided to stay at their behest. I am, however, no less committed to defending my faith.
I’m not surprised. You should see how many Obama bumper stickers there are when my Catholic Church is in mass. Oh and btw, Ordinary Coloradan, the Catholic Church doesn’t really do morals anymore. They’re in it to see how many more parishioners they can get. Just like after they changed the essence of the Catholic church after Vatican II. My mothers’ Alma Matter Catholic high school supported Hillary Clinton early in the election. Oh and btw, when you say this isn’t representational of all Catholics…I keep thinking about how those few Muslim terrorists are representational of Islam. Need more be said?
englishqueen01 said:
Got it, it is OK if a Catholic criticizes the Catholic church, but woe to the non-Catholic who dares do the same. It’s a Catholic thing, I wouldn’t understand…
englishqueen01 said:
And racism, too. That is why I can’t criticize Obama without being labeled a racist. What? Don’t you tell me there aren’t white people in this country who are racist against blacks! It is the same erroneous logic.
I can criticize the Catholic church without being a bigot. Look at the reaction by some Catholics here – before any supposed Catholic-bashing. Read: Don’t you dare criticize the Catholic church or you’ll be labeled a bigot and the “Catholic Squad” will come out in mass (no pun intended).
Michelle Malkin, apparently wary of the constant claims that she is or tolerates Catholic bashing merely linked the information put forth by Catholics (no clarification of that is needed, EQ, because anyone who clicks on the link will see that). Her title to the thread is accurate. Incomplete? Sure, like all titles are. That is why the links are provided.
englishqueen01 said:
englishqueen01 said:
Do you not notice all of the Catholic posters who take cheap shots at non-Catholics on these threads?
englishqueen01 said:
I think most people (although not myself, I see myself as merely a Christian) would probably consider me a “Protestant.” None of the churches I have attended (and I have attended many as I’ve moved all over this country) tithe. Tithing isn’t a “Protestant thing,” it is an Old Testament thing. Some churches command tithes, some do not (there is no Pope over all Protestant churches). But you’re a Catholic falsely characterizing non-Catholic churches, so don’t sweat it…
And perhaps you missed this:
worlok said:
Yeah, there was a real need to share the disdain for another’s worship services – as if that has anything to do with anything. In all of your critical posts on this thread, you only criticize in one direction.
englishqueen01 said:
I agree, it just ain’t happening. You want to protest Catholic bashing? Fine, go where the Catholic bashing is. It ain’t here.
Btw, I am a Catholic and I consider myself conservative. But let’s face it…most Catholics are in a “silent majority” when it comes to Obama. The sermons I used to hear at mass before I got sick of it were peppered with antiwar and anti-Americanisms and therefore a pro Democratic voice. I stopped going after awhile (week after week) and hearing all I could hear and wrote to my cardinal (George, he’s in Chicago). He has taken no position about condemning clergy and charities about subverting traditional time tested values in the Chicagoland area. Therefore I can conclude, he has not received much mail on the subject or feels he himself does not have to take a stand because either 1)it’s too much of a hot topic issue or 2) he really is a liberal. You have to remember, the Catholic Church is no longer about what is right, only about how many people can they get to sit in their pews. Vatican II subverted the laws of the Catholic Church which at that time, had been in place for about 1600 years. My mother’s Alma Matter, a Catholic high school, indorsed Hillary Clinton in the primaries. No repremands. Also, at Depaul University (btw, this is the school that fired a tenured professor without a hearing because he told the truth about Palistinian terrorists) supposed Catholic institution…it is NOT REQUIRED to take any course on CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. Meaning you only need one semester of ANY RELIGION’S DOCTRINE. Btw, this school has a HUGE Muslim student body and guess what? IT’S FUNDED BY SAUDI DOLLARS. Where is the Cardinal, nay, the Pope pulling this schools Catholic funding and accredidation? The enemy always comes from within? Last point: some say, “this isn’t representative of the mainstream Catholics- not the majority in any event”. Well doesn’t the MSN tell us that Muslim terrorists are only a few in number and don’t directly represent the Muslim majority, that Islam is a religion of peace? I’ll leave you to ponder the last point.
cshapiro04 said:
That isn’t just a Catholic thing. There was some young guy – I think they said he was the editor of some young Evangelical magazine – that said he was pro-life, but in order to be consistent, he was against the war in Iraq. He actually equated the two.
Hello! Saddam fed his critics feet first into woodchippers! Taking out the bad guy, protecting the innocent, is entirely consistent with pro-life principles.
In all of the churches I’ve attended (until now), it was just a given that people voted Republican. It went unsaid because it didn’t need to be said. It is patently obvious that the Democratic platform is against virtually everything Biblical.
In a church I recently attended, one of the elders actually tried to defend abortion in Bible class – and he was soundly refuted by everyone else on the spot.
In the church I now preach at, I knew there were some lifelong Democrats who intended to vote for Obama. That is why I gave a sermon on God’s view of those who would take the lives of those in the womb. I described in gruesome detail what happens in abortions. I then warned them that this is what they were partnering with if they support those who advocate abortion on demand. Many of them told me it made them rethink some things.
Trollman,
Thank you for speaking the truth.
As for the elder who tried to defend abortion in Bible class…
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You’ve never noticed how Catholic churches pass the hat once, sometimes twice, sometimes even three times per service, I guess. Maybe if you’re looking for the buzzword “tithe” to be spoken there’s a chance you won’t hear it, but Catholics are EXPECTED to give their 10% tithe and then some, just like any good Protestant. (I am a Catholic who was converted from a Baptist Church/Bible Church background, so I have been active in both types of churches during my adult life.)
As for Catholic money funding Obama’s early activities, I always take issue with the Church handing its parishioners money over to other organizations. You never know what it’s really going to fund, and here we can see it went to fund a future presidential candidate who takes stances that directly contradict a pro-life worldview which is not compatible with basic Christian doctrine.
There is an answer for Catholic parishioners: I pick and choose where my money goes. I primarily support a college campus ministry and I pick and choose other places throughout the year to send my tithe. I don’t put money in the collection plate unless it’s a special collection for a specific appeal that I know in advance to be a worthy destination for funds.
it’s fine to have religious beliefs and convictions, but we shouldn’t let our convictions lead us into committing wrongs for our beliefs. we abhor muslims telling children you will be a martyr and go to heaven if you die killing our enemies, yet we want to ignore our priests assisting illegal aliens and committing pedophilia. wrong is wrong, and you can’t hide behind church platitudes of any religion.
Trollman (#88), said:
We don’t just “consider” you a protestant. You are a protestant. Possibly you haven’t understood the basic meaning of that word. All Christians who are not Catholic are by definition protestant.
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “protestant” as: “A Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church.”
Prior to the Protestant Reformation there was no church besides the Catholic church. The Reformation was a protest in opposition to Roman Catholicism. All denominations that call themselves Christian but not Catholic are derivatives of the original Protestant Reformation and are just a continuation of that ongoing protest.
So you may not consider yourself protestant, but I believe in doing so you ignore the facts of history.
the orthodox may disagree.
the orthodox broke away around 1000 AD
SylviaMarie said:
What you have said is false. The definition you gave even proves my point – you can be a non-Catholic Christian without being a Protestant.
I reject your terminology. I am not protesting against the Catholic church, I am not anti-Catholic, I am pro-the God of the Bible.
Just like I am not so much against gun control laws as that I am pro-gun. One is a negative term, the other is a positive term. The primary emphasis isn’t that I’m against something, but that I am for something.
SylviaMarie said:
Again, you are wrong. You forgot about the Orthodox churches. It just goes to show your conceit (which always rears its head on these kinds of threads).
The fact of the matter is, there has always been a diversity of beliefs/opinions in Christianity. That was true even before the “Protestant Reformation.” It is just that, through the abuse of power, they were suppressed and never heard of. The “Protestant Reformation” happened when it did because, at that time, the Catholic Church could no longer crush all dissent.
In fact, there are many doctrines of the Catholic church that simply weren’t there in the first century Church.
The wine served at the Lord’s Supper is not literal blood.
1. Consuming blood was against the Law of Moses (Lev. 17).
2. Jesus was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4). He remained under the Law until He died upon the cross (Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:14; Heb. 9:16-17).
3. Jesus gave His fellow Jews literal blood to drink (according to Catholic doctrine) the night before He died, while He was still under the Law of Moses (Matt. 26:28).
4. Therefore, if the Catholic teaching is correct, that would mean Jesus broke the Law of Moses – something He explicitly said He would not do (Matt. 5:17-19).
5. If He broke the Law of Moses, which He was under, then that would make Him a sinner. That would also mean He was no longer fit to die for anyone’s sins but His own. But the Bible teaches that He was sinless (Heb. 4:15).
And there are many other things that the Catholic church teaches that was not there in the first century church (there was no hint of a papacy in NT times, etc.). If anything, Catholics are the true Protestants – protesting against the plain teachings of the Bible.
So when you claim that there simply was no church apart from the Catholic church, you do so while ignoring the facts of history and the Bible.
I’m a Jewish born Protestant who’s looking into catholicism right now.
Though my favorite demonimation is the Nazarenes, I live in CHICAGO.
Most Protestant churches here are to the left of Mao. My soul is crying out for a “home” to worship at-and I found a fairly conservative parish.
Do I agree w/everything in the catholic church…no. The fact that I’m no longer Jewish proves that I have an independent streak. In fact this “relationship” may not get past the first few “dates”. Even if the Lord decides that I should be RC-I won’t hesitate to speak out if HE lays it on my heart to do so.
As Declaration of Independence signer Stephen Hopkins said…”Nothing is so dangerous that it can’t be talked about.”
We that are Christian(Catholics are just another demonination) need to quit looking for “bashing” everywhere and focus on the REAL issues.
To quote Dennis Miller(a Catholic)”…. but that’s just my opinion….I could be wrong.”
No, she’s not wrong–there is a long-standing affiliation between Eastern Orthodox and Roman sects of the Catholic (a word which, after all, means universal) Church. Go to the Wikipedia entry for “Catholic,” and you will find (emphasis mine):
I’m not even going to delve into the issue of divergent versions of early Christianity–I am no theologian. I’ll leave that to EQ, who I feel is far better at it than I could hope to be.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that the majority of non-Catholic churches in America today (even those who bill themselves as “non-denominational”) have roots in the original schismatic factions of the Renaissance.
KitFox said:
You are quoting wiki as an authoritative source? If you look at the Catholic page and the Orhtodox page, you’ll notice that there is a wide variety of meanings different groups assign to the word “Catholic.”
If the two groups are in fact one, then how can there be a “Catholic-Orthodox ecumenism” section? Regardless, this is a purely semantic argument anyway, and I reject your terminology.
You want to insist Orthodox = Catholic in your understanding? Fine. Now show me that the early Church, the Church of the NT taught the same things as the Catholic church. Start by showing me how it is even possible for Jesus to command His fellow Jews to drink literal blood without sinning.
KitFox said:
I think your faith in EQ is misplaced. I asked her the same question about the wine in the Lord’s Supper before, but she ducked it. Really, what can you say? The Catholic church is clearly wrong, but they can’t possibly be wrong, right? The Lord’s Supper is basic stuff, Christianity 101.