McCain wants to spend $300 billion to buy up bad mortgages; Martin Feldstein behind it
Scroll down for updates…McCain’s April 15 remarks added below…Economist Martin Feldstein pitched the plan in the WSJ…see response below…
I can’t underscore enough what a rotten idea John McCain’s ACORN-like government mortgage buy-up is. I said it during my liveblog. And I’ll say it again: “HE WANTS TO EXPAND THE BAILOUT. He wants to do what ACORN wants to do. We’re Screwed ‘08.”
This was his supposed “game-changer.” This was the very first thing out of his mouth during the debate tonight — his big pitch right off the bat. The McCain campaign immediately sent out this fact sheet on the proposal, which will cost at least $300 billion. The proposal involves directing the Treasury Secretary to “purchase mortgages directly from homeowners and mortgage servicers.” That’s on top of the trillion-dollar crap sandwich (update - McCain says it would be included in the crap sandwich), the $85 billion to AIG, the $25 billion to automakers, the $200 billion in capital and credit lines to Fannie and Freddie, and who knows what else we’ll be forking over to California, Massachusetts, etc., etc., etc.
He spent the entire debate assailing massive government spending — while his featured proposal of the night was to heap on more massive government spending to pursue home ownership/retention at all costs. If Obama had proposed this, the Right would be screaming bloody murder about this socialist grab to have the Treasury Department renegotiate individual home loans and become chief principal write-down agents for the nation.
As I put it this morning: “Getting credit is not a constitutional right. Preserving home ownership should not be a government imperative to be pursued at all costs. Neither should foreclosure prevention at all costs.”
Read and weep:
AMERICAN HOMEOWNERSHIP RESURGENCE PLAN
John McCain will direct his Treasury Secretary to implement an American Homeownership Resurgence Plan (McCain Resurgence Plan) to keep families in their homes, avoid foreclosures, save failing neighborhoods, stabilize the housing market and attack the roots of our financial crisis. America’s families are bearing a heavy burden from falling housing prices, mortgage delinquencies, foreclosures, and a weak economy. It is important that those families who have worked hard enough to finance homeownership not have that dream crushed under the weight of the wrong mortgage. The existing debts are too large compared to the value of housing. For those that cannot make payments, mortgages must be re-structured to put losses on the books and put homeowners in manageable mortgages. Lenders in these cases must recognize the loss that they’ve already suffered.
The McCain Resurgence Plan would purchase mortgages directly from homeowners and mortgage servicers, and replace them with manageable, fixed-rate mortgages that will keep families in their homes. By purchasing the existing, failing mortgages the McCain resurgence plan will eliminate uncertainty over defaults, support the value of mortgage-backed derivatives and alleviate risks that are freezing financial markets.
The McCain resurgence plan would be available to mortgage holders that:
· Live in the home (primary residence only)
· Can prove their creditworthiness at the time of the original loan (no falsifications and provided a down payment).
The new mortgage would be an FHA-guaranteed fixed-rate mortgage at terms manageable for the homeowner. The direct cost of this plan would be roughly $300 billion because the purchase of mortgages would relieve homeowners of “negative equity” in some homes. Funds provided by Congress in recent financial market stabilization bill can be used for this purpose; indeed by stabilizing mortgages it will likely be possible to avoid some purposes previously assumed needed in that bill.
The plan could be implemented quickly as a result of the authorities provided in the stabilization bill, the recent housing bill, and the U.S. government’s conservatorship of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It may be necessary for Congress to raise the overall borrowing limit.
Read that last paragraph again. He would enact this new spending plan using the authorities provided in the stabilization bill — the same ones I reported on in my special column for the NYPost today championed by Obama’s friends at ACORN.
It’s a great idea…for everyone who bought overpriced homes with Adjustable Rate Mortgages. Those who rented or bought within their means or locked into fixed-rate loans that they can afford are out of luck, naturally.
Question: Will he propose a similar plan for those who bought mutual funds at or near the market top?
Dude, where’s their bailout?
***
Stephen Spruiell gives thumbs down:
Yeah… didn’t Congress just enact major legislation to address this problem? The Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 created a federal mortgage-insurance program for lenders who agree to reduce mortgage payments for struggling borrowers.
How is McCain’s plan different? I’ll try to explain. Let’s say you have a $200,000 adjustable-rate mortgage. Your home’s value has declined, your interest rate has gone up and you can no longer afford to make the payments. Under current law, the government will guarantee your mortgage if your lender agrees to work out a deal with you.
Under McCain’s plan, the Treasury Secretary would buy your mortgage from whoever owns it and then deal with you directly. In many cases, the Treasury Department would already own your mortgage, because it is about to buy up $700 billion worth of mortgage-backed securities. But under McCain’s plan, Treasury would also become your loan servicer…McCain’s plan is redundant, and it would create significant new responsibilities (and costs) for an already-beleagu[e]red agency. I’m not sure what the campaign was thinking.
Let me repeat what I said about this plan in my ACORN column, because every word applies to McCain:
This will radically expand the federal role in meddling with mortgage loans. The key sections mandate that the Treasury “consent” to rewriting loans to prevent foreclosures – not only by reducing interest, but also by cutting loan principal.
Stuck with a $300,000 mortgage you can’t pay? Get the government to wave its magic wand and cut your debt to $150,000.The deal is only for those who have fallen behind on their mortgages, of course – not for all you chumps who’ve been paying on time.
And it’s a good bet that ACORN mortgage counselors will “help” decide which distressed borrowers benefit, and how.
The group’s housing arm, the Acorn Housing Corp., is already funded with millions of taxpayer dollars to renegotiate loans for low-income people who should have never received them in the first place. Loan modification is ACORN’s bread and butter.
And when the group doesn’t get what it wants, it will sue, protest and shake down until business and government bend again.
Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas) foresees havoc: “Liberals who manage these programs will give away millions of free or reduced homes in neighborhoods all over America to families who could not otherwise afford them.
“The federal government now has the power to create federal housing projects, house by house, in neighborhoods all over America. Just imagine what that means for property values and the safety and security of your neighborhood.”
All this comes on top of the $5 billion ACORN-backed housing bill passed in July, which hands $600 million-plus to ACORN and similar groups to bail out homeowners under water and help countless more risky loan prospects.
During the floor debate on Friday, Reps. Frank and Waters assured Democratic colleagues that they had personally lobbied Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson on these measures and would press him to consent to “do the kind of loan modifications we’ve been urging.”
Waters exulted: “We’re in charge! . . . We own them now.”
If the banks and others that collect payments on these distressed mortgages don’t write down enough loan principal to keep Rep. Frank happy, he threatens hearings and new legislation next year.
He’ll have the backing of ACORN. ACORN President Maude Hurd warns that her “members plan to hold Secretary Paulson accountable and ensure he uses this authority to make streamlined loan modifications a priority for struggling American families.”
What’s next? Principal write-downs on credit cards and car loans? What incentive do responsible borrowers have left to pay their bills on time?
***
Commenter astonerii adds: “It does not matter whether it is on top of the current $700,000,000,000.00 bailout. It is the simple fact that McCain thinks that house prices need to be stabilized by government mandate . That the government has any business at all to do with the price of a home. That the government’s duty is to keep people in their overpriced homes. That the government should discriminate against non home owners by helping establish home prices that are outside the range of many if not most people who work near where the homes are located. The government is not the economy, unless you are communist marxist socialist. Get the God Damned American government out of my pocket and my choices and do it now.”
Andy McCarthy counts the many other ways that McCain’s performance was a disaster.
Andy, I’m with you.
***
Ugh. McCain talked about his home loan plan in April:
These reforms must wait on the next election, but to help our workers and our economy we must also act in the here and now. And we must start with the subprime mortgage crisis, with the hundreds of thousands of citizens who played by the rules, yet now fear losing their houses. Under the HOME plan I have proposed, our government will offer these Americans direct and immediate help that can make all the difference: If you can’t make your payments, and you’re in danger of foreclosure, you will be able to go to any Post Office and pick up a form for a new HOME loan. In place of your flawed mortgage loan, you’ll be eligible for a new, 30-year fixed-rate loan backed by the United States government. Citizens will keep their homes, lenders will cut their losses, and everyone will move on — following the sounder practices that should have been observed in the first place.
***
Reader reaction is pouring in. A few of the best ones:
From e-mailer Danny…
Sorry to say – during tonight’s debate – all I had to hear was: (1) McCain offer additional housing bailouts in response to the 1st question and, (2) a dedicated lack of confrontation in response to (a) Obama’s ‘Bush = McCain’ rhetoric and, (b) lack of willingness to drive a stake into Fannie Mae + Franklin Gaines + Obama & Democrats – that I had to fight myself from turning the TV off.
Clearly – the wrong Republican on the ticket was out there tonight.
What about all of McCain’s talk about “victory”? It matters in Iraq, but not in Michigan, not in tonight’s debate?
Gov Palin sounds like more of the leader I am looking for – not someone to call me “friend” – but someone to show me some fight. If I feel this way – I wonder what our servicemen and servicewomen in Iraq and Afghanistan will think about when they see this performance and truly study it with a critical eye?
Take the gloves off – and put on the brass knuckles.
I will still vote for the McCain-Palin ticket – but only because Gov Palin is on it. Truly, I feel sorry for her. At least she FIGHTS. Sen. McCain’s performance tonight was more like Captain Hazelwood of the Exxon Valdez – playing slalom with icebergs.
Jimmie at The Sundries Shack:
And what about the non-homeowners who have worked hard and decided, responsibly, not to live under the Damocles’ Sword of an Adjustable Rate Mortgage knowing that, at some point, that rate was going to adjust upward and put them in serious trouble?
Screw us, apparently.
Here’s the thing, though. The value of housing fluctuates with the demand for housing. The government is hideously bad in picking the value of anything. Don’t believe me?
The government has been helping to set the value of health care through Medicare for decades. How’s that been working out?…
And from commenter DirkBelig:
While on points tonight’s debate was a draw, in all practicality it was the beginning of the end for the once-great nation of the United States of America.
When is Kathleen Parker going to demand that McCain drop off the ticket to spare Sarah Palin the embarrassment? After Palin finally forced Obama’s radical pals into the light where even CNN had to acknowledge their existence, McCain doddered into the debate tonight and blew it, allowing the pundits on Nightline to declare such talk the desperate actions of a rapidly fading candidate “talking about 40-year-old events when the public is worried about the economy today.” He sent his wingman out on a mission and left her hanging out to dry.
Buying up bad mortgages was his big idea for the evening? Why not just hand him a horn labeled “ME TOO!” for him to honk whenever Obama promised to give everyone (but Mean Rich People) a tax cut and a kitten that will only poop rainbows? Allowing Obama to twist the “he doesn’t understand” riff back on him allowed a demerit on Obama become a slam on McCain that taps into the public’s fatigue with a seemingly-endless war that Dubya never was able to articulate the need for when it counted.
We are four weeks until the Election and the only one speaking the Truth about Obama is Sarah Palin. McCain isn’t getting his message out thru the Treason Media’s filters. Obama’s ACORN cronies are rounding up homeless people to commit voter fraud in Ohio already. With conservatives already leery of McCain and only staying interested because of patriotism and Palin, the longer he shuffles along, the more likely this “imperfect servant’s” last public act will be to deliver the United States into the hands of the fascists and communists that he once fought against and suffered under. I wonder if he even knows how badly he is failing – not only himself, but his country?
Too bad I never developed a taste for therapeutic alcohol because if I did, I’d be self-medicating something fierce now. Cheers!
***
Apparently, some conservatives think this individual home loan mortgage nationalization plan is okay because economist Martin Feldstein proposed it. If you think falling housing prices are the “problem,” then of course you’ll go along with massive government intervention to stop the “crisis.”
I agree with this guy:
This has got to be the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard.
The argument about a low-cost loan cutting back on monthly payments has a tiny degree of merit, but the idea that the homeowner is going to think about his mortgage obligation differently because it is split into two pieces is just plain dumb – especially if the new loan is full recourse and from the U.S. government!
The whole idea of somehow propping up home prices is just sickening and the notion that renowned economists still think the root cause of the current problem is falling home prices rather than the policies that allowed home prices to rise to their previous bubble heights – well, that’s even more sickening.
More reax:
Dumb idea. Only someone with a degree in Keynesian economics would think splitting a mortgage into two parts is somehow “helping” the upside-down borrower.
Plus, anyone who is foolish enough to borrow from the government with full recourse would be asking for trouble. Ask anyone who is behind on their student loan payments. Miss a payment or two and the penalties and interest will multiply the balance due beyond the point where you will ever catch up, and the IRS will garnish your wages to get the money back.
As with any government “deal”, the likely downside far outweighs the possible upside.
***
The trouble with the government changing the terms of existing mortgages is that they will have to totally destroy contract law. Any advantage given to one party in a contract will be a disadvantage to the other party. We will no longer be a country of laws but a country of arbitrary government edicts.
Feldstein is nuts. He claims to be worried about “overshooting” on the way down. History shows that declining home prices don’t overshoot the way stocks often do. Instead, the decline slows as prices approach fair value. Then nominal prices stop falling as inflation gradually eats away at the real value of real estate. Nominal prices start rising again only when they have roughly reached fair value. The reason real estate prices don’t overshoot on the way down is because they are sticky upwards.
Feldstein’s concern about overshooting suggests that he thinks the fair value for real estate is a lot higher than it actually is. Notice that he thinks a 15% decline over the coming year would be enough to return housing to reasonable levels. (He’s using real numbers, not nominal. With our current 4% inflation rate, he’s talking an 11% nominal decline over the next year.) Feldstein’s real aim is to prevent a much-needed real estate correction.
Feldstein is a Republican. I thought Republicans were supposed to believe in the free market. I guess they do except for when they don’t.
Yeah, that ship has sailed.
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Categories: Barack Obama, John McCain, Subprime crisis
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Has anyone noticed the money is a part of the bailout plan, and Senator McCain’s proposal is to manage it better. People are not going to be able to keep their homes if they don’t make payments.
I am so disgusted that our “true” conservatives attack McCain at the drop of a hat. Are you not aware our country cannot be governed from either the right or the left. It has always been governed from the center. Obama’s phony fake out of appealing to the center is a deception to cover up his own thug behavior, his surrogate’s vile and vicious behavior, his truth squads, ACORN, and lying, with the help of the media, about his radical and frankly anti-American associates. He will not govern from the center, but so far left none of us could ever imagine. McCain will govern from the center. And that is good.
Obama / McCain
the younger years
aJ! nice ad. For real. Obinkee is a dim bulb with a closet substance abuse history that he tried to get out in front of in his “book”….. he has an addictive personality and will be devoured by it under the pressures of real leadership demands— demands he has never faced even a facscimile of.
Bob Novak is whining that all is lost. McCain is letting the chips fall where they may. running for President is a lonely way to go. As President he will have a cabinet that may give us some semblance of confident leadership.
The MSM have blown this race out of proportion— if it is so decisively in Obinkee’s corner now, why are there so many undecided voters?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. I bet it is higher than they are saying.
Bear1909 out.
On October 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pm, mike.musculus said:
Gee…don’t go out and get a life or anything mike. Ill answer you on the other thread when I get a chance.
Is rambling sound and fury. Do I write letters to congressmen and senators? Yes. Am I going to write one a day? No. Why? Because mine get opened and read, often answered. If I sent in one a day they go in to the trash with the valuepacks and the Chinese menus.
I am. I am chocking down my own frustration and disappointment and taking time off and working to help elect someone who quite literally had me throwing things at the TV screen yesterday because I STILL think the alternative is too destructive to the USA to throw up my hands for. What are you doing other than typing unibomber manifestos and posting them here?
I don’t think you have absorbed a word I have written.
Whine? I am VERY concerned for the country. I am frustrated as hell with the stupidity that it takes to vote for Alan Keyes or Chuck Baldwin. I am disgusted with so called “conservatives” who were too ignorant to vote for Romney because he is a Mormon or Giuliani because he is a “baby killer” or whatever other excuse that got us to this point. Frustrated still that after choosing a vice presidential candidate that is every bit as inexperienced as the democrats presidential candidate, thereby taking the biggest weapon we had against Obama (his big 143 day resume) off the table JUST TO APPEASE THE CONSERVATIVES the base is still not rallied. Aggravated that McCain looked like the crypt keeper. (WOULD IT KILL YOU TO GET SOME GODDAMN MAKEUP!) (Probably) Exasperated that he can come up with these STUPID ideas. (Why the hell should I pay MY mortgage? Can someone please answer that?) AND DOWNRIGHT WORRIED about the America hating thugs who are going to drive this country in to the ground after we elect barack f-ing Obama president.
But “whiny?” I thought I was doing a pretty decent job of not complaining too vociferously about the country that I believe in being gangraped by the likes of Bill Ayres and George Soros.
Drop dead.
Carly Fiorina isn’t either – she of running HP into the ground.
I have been saying this for some time…to anyone who holds still long enough…
we don’t have Liberal/Progressive/socialists/leftists…
and conservatives/free-marketeers/Constitutionist/limited government advocates…
we have
FAST socialsists…
and SLOWER socialists…
those are our current choices, generally…
I have never intended to vote for John McCain. He is a liberal, and while less socialist than Obama, he is a very confused socialist. He has no coherent governing philosophy and will be a disaster. There is no doubt Obama will be a worse disaster. But seriously, either way the nation is destroyed.
For the first time in more than 20 years I will not vote for a GOP candidate for President. I will be voting for the Constitution Party this year. Last week McCain showed one more time why we can’t trust him. Last night he aptly demonstrated that he is only slightly less disasterous than Obama. I can’t vote for the lesser of two disasters.
This nation deserves better.
Two points that John McCain needs to make starting today and continuing every day until election day:
1. The present economic mess is a direct result of sub-prime mortgages that the Democrats authorized and touted until the day before yesterday.
Sub-prime mortgages fueled the sky-rocketing home prices.
Then when the sub-prime home owners couldn’t pay, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and everyone holding the bad sub-prime paper went belly up.
2. McCain needs to explain how he is going to lead us out of this mess.
The $700 billion bailout is a done deal, but it has not had the expected effect on stock prices.
More bailouts will not solve the problems and only lead to higher taxes.
McCain needs to jaw bone stock prices and the economy.
“My friends. What you and everyone else needs is some straight talk. You can can be sure that my opponent has no idea how to get us out of this mess.”
“All he wants to do is for the Government spend more money. And with that, he will have to collect more taxes.”
“Government needs to get out of the way, so that the American people can fix what is wrong with the economy.”
“Look what smart people like Warren Buffett are doing. Buffett is not selling his stock holdings. He is holding what he has. He is buying where there are bargains. Next year and the year after, Buffett and everyone else who buys stock now is going to be richer than they are now.”
“The way to turn things around and build the economy is to drill for oil, build 10-20 new oil refineries, build 50 new nuclear power plants.”
“If we drill for oil today, we will start having more American oil by this time next year. And the percentage of American oil will grown every year. With more American oil, world oil prices will go down.”
On October 8th, 2008 at 7:55 pm, WarEagle82 said:
So.. better to support a truther who wants to withdraw from NATO, give up overseas bases and “terminate American military presence in all foreign countries”… get rid of the patriot act and the national security act and promises to do things like ban the lottery and pornography. …K
Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama…
Another Obama supporter… yay
Bill,
In case you haven’t checked, America is winding down its troop deployment in Europe. The threat of Soviet invasion of Western Europe is over. We won. It is time reassess threats and choose new alliances for the next 40 or 50 years. Europe will do fine without us. And they don’t need tens of thousands of American troops in Germany any longer.
The Patriot Act introduces virtually no new powers that law enforcement didn’t have before it was passed.
And I have no problem with banning the lotteries or pornography. They both hurt millions each year.
We have tried it Clinton’s way and we have tried it Bush’s way. In the end, we didn’t do so well on either path. It is time to get back to the principles of limited, constitutional government and the Constitution Party seems to offer the best path there.
It is okay if you are in favor of the lottery and porn. But, I’d rather do something else with my time.
No, Rob, I guess I am a Chuck Baldwin supporter. You see, if I was an Obama supporter I’d be voting for Obama. Were I a McCain supporter I’d be voting for McCain. Instead I am for limited, constitutional government and will be voting for the only party which seems to want to take us there.
I voted for Bush twice, Dole once, G HW Bush twice and I still got socialism. I am tired of the GOP lying to me. They promised me limited government for 20 years and I got socialism and they destroyed trillions in wealth on the way there. The two major parties are utterly corrupt. I accept that now. Maybe you will too after the next trillion dollar, pork-laden bailout. Or maybe not….
Comrade, as long as you support Obama, I do not judge you…
Well, Rob, at least you are consistently illogical. No wonder the GOP is in the state it is in. Start thinking for a bit and you will see that both major parties are part of the problem. Neither will ever dismantle the huge government they created and profit from. Neither has any intent to do so.
Obama promises he will implement socialism. McCain babbles about socialist programs but doesn’t understand that he is actually suggesting socialism. In the mean time, Bush II (for whom I voted TWICE) has already created the foundation for socialism in America in 8 short years.
If you keep charging down the road the the cliff don’t blame me when you notice the hard, pointy rocks rapidly approaching the second after you step off in to thin air. The truth hurts and so do those hard, pointy rocks….
hmmmmmm… yeah, Obama’s homeless voters are logical, the black fools that are voting for him because he is black are logical, the stupid liberals that are voting for him because they are stupid are logical…
You are going to proudly be able to say that you were logical and are proud that President Obama beat that illogical McCain.
You are about as logical as a pail of sh!t.
but This is OT, I am posting this to every blog site I’m registered at because I’m so d***** mad and upset:
The US Special Counsel is launching an investigation against my brother-in-law’s cousin for using The One’s middle name at Sarah’s rally in Fort Myers on Monday
http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=22058&z=3
I think I’m gonna be sick.
Can you imagine how much it will cost him to defend against this?
Mike is a good man; he, his wife Christa, and the girls do NOT deserve this.
I guarantee Obama’s campaign got wind of this and decided to make an example of a Republican sheriff. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if these “phone calls” came from Obama’s goons and supporters.
These are the kind of tactics we can expect if The One gets in to the highest office in the land. Prepare for all methods to stifle free speech.
On October 8th, 2008 at 9:01 pm, WarEagle82 said:
War,
In case you haven’t checked we have NATO troops in Afghanistan and the Canadians at least have done an excellent job. Additionally, we are facing a resurgent Russia that just rolled through Georgia and routinely threatens the Ukraine and Europe itself. Every time we go the rout of isolationism it winds up dragging us in to a bigger conflict. I am the 4th generation in my family to be dragged off to fight in Europe but the first to not spend years at it because we have NATO. So that is a bad, bad, bad idea.
That isn’t true, indeed, before the patriot act the FBI couldn’t even talk to the CIA by law and we were not allowed to collect domestic intelligence. Regardless, before we toss all of that away shouldn’t we win the war that we are in? You know, the one that the moonbats at the chuck Baldwins website call the “so called” (scare quote) “war on terror” (end scare quote)?
I happen to be an adult and can gamble if I wish. I don’t trust the likes of Chuck Baldwin not to call Michelangelo’s “David” pornography because anyone who hasn’t figured out that fire CAN melt steel isn’t too stable.
Be careful, We wouldn’t want Chuck Baldwin to catch you red handed…
A vote for anyone other than McCain is a vote for Obama.
On October 8th, 2008 at 9:55 pm, marybeth said:
Can’t connect Marybeth, what’s the guys name?
Good one, Rob. It is always the mark of a strong argument to resort to profanity and name calling. Well done. The RINOs of the GOP must be proud.
I have been posting on this board for most of a year. I have always explained why, as an fiscal/economic, social and limited government conservative, I couldn’t and wouldn’t vote for McCain. Voting for the GOP who have demonstrated they have no intention of governing as conservatives over and over again is illogical. Who was it who said insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome?
I am sorry that you haven’t realized that, while Obama is a Marxist, McCain is nothing more than “socialist-lite.” But, it is all irrelevant as Bush has already turned the nation into a socialist economy. The time for the GOP to prove its mettle was when Bush went off on Medicare Part D. But, they caved back then and then went on to out-spend the LIBERAL DEMOCRATS for nearly 6 years. That isn’t easy but the RINO-leadership racked up HUGE deficits and put more earmarks in bills than the Dems! We are talking trillions of dollars added to the deficit over 6 years.
No, the GOP has abandoned any conservative principles. Continuing to vote GOP just gets us more and more and more socialism.
No, SLP, check your ballot. Mine will have separate boxes for Obama, McCain, Baldin, Barr and several other candidates. A vote for a candidate is a vote for a candidate. That is sort of the way the ballot works unless you live in one or two counties in Florida who can’t seem to figure out any ballot….
Hmm…Not sure if thats the case…she is even selling the McCain’s new extra bailout idea now. Not sure if she can’t think independently or is just pressurized by McCain so much. Either way, I am just leaning to vote now for Chuck Baldwin!
His name is Mike Scott.
Oh, and the article is taking a long time to load . . . patience.
You won’t believe it.
Can’t agree more….He has been a big blow to Reagan conservatism since he is a republican as well:(. Policies like fiscal conservatism or Peace through Strength mean nothing to Bush/Cheney.
Bill, #201
Yes, I do know there are NATO troops in Afghanistan. Thanks for checking though. But, frankly, no European nation is going to war for Georgia. The Europeans know it, Russia knows it and we know it too. I suspect no European nation is going to war for Ukraine either. For everyone’s sake I hope that remains less clear than the issue over Georgia. As I said, the threat of invasion of Western Europe is over. NATO was not designed to protect Eastern Europe or the Caucasus. I am afraid the consensus of NATO will break down there. It is better that we know this sooner rather than later. And I didn’t say we should have no alliances. I said we should reassess and form new alliances based on new threats.
Interestingly, Jamie Gorelick of Fannie/Freddie fame is the one who introduced this “wall.” The wall could have been broken without the Patriot Act. And of course we could and did conduct domestic intelligence. Even you should know that. They had Zacarias Moussaoui’s laptop but Gorelick wouldn’t permit them to open and share the info. If they had the laptop then they had conducted intelligence and investigation without the Patriot Act. The problem is a liberal one and not a legal one.
And I never said we should just quit and go home either. You need to respond to what I actually said rather than just making stuff up as you go along.
On the other two issues, you are an adult. And as an adult you should recognize that what you do impacts everyone around you. Gambling causes all sorts of problems. Go the heritage.org and look for some of the articles on lotteries and gambling. And prostitution is hardly a victimless crime. Human trafficking is a huge problem world-wide. There may be more people in slavery, and largely sex slavery, now than 200 years ago. I think I would have been against slavery in 1860 and I am against slavery now. Again, adults realize that actions have consequences. Well, most adults realize that.
Marybeth, keep us posted. The tv clip is none-too-clear about the matter so do let us know what happens.
How come the Feds aren’t investigating the Sheriffs and prosecutors on Obama’s Truth Squads in Missouri?
There couldn’t be a bias in the media?
Bottom line: democrats MUST be defeated. Voting for a third party will not get the job done.
No…bottom line is socialists/comunists must be defeated, be it democrats or RINOs….
Bottom line is who we elect and not who we defeat…Conservatives must be elected.
You, sir, are a genius!
Socialism is the disease and Conservatism is the cure. Limit the size, scope and power of government and things will get better.
Re-education camps, Billy? Pot meet kettle…You have a lot nerve calling anybody a truther, truther.
Concur.
WarEagle82, I agree with you. I am intending to support Chuck Baldwin. I keep hearing this ‘truther” stuff come up on him but I honestly can’t find anything to substantiate it. HAve asked some to provide documented proof but got nothing. Maybe a truther to some is anyone who does not beleive the Iraq war was well run and worth the $T. Anyway, good on ya. The 2 party system has failed and fooled the AMerican people. I hate mcamnesty (but will admit he is better than obummer). I argued with some here on the “a 3rd party vote is a vote for obummer”, and fianlyl gave up. No, it is a vote for hte person I want to be POTUS.
Rob, I am confused. In the past you always argued against supporting mcamensty on the default vote for obama grounds. Now you are making the arguemnt. Seriously, I am not attacking you. I agree with you on almost every issue and your stand, even when unpopular on the board. Just curious.
I do not intend to debate this issue. Just wnated to respond to WarEagle. PLease don’t turn this into a name calling mud slinging no benefit to anyone arguement. For good measure, I relent you win. I am an idiot who is voting for 3rd party which menas I am really voting for obama. Ok?
On October 8th, 2008 at 10:35 pm, WarEagle82 said:
So therefore we should pull out of NATO. Not only that but dissolve our foreign military bases. Kind of a leap in logic, even if it were true.
The wall between foreign and domestic intelligence was around long before Jamie Gorelick. it goes back to the Church Committee.
That is basically the position of Ron Paul lite.
Again, I don’t need Chuck Baldwin telling me what is OK or not OK based on his convenient interpretation of the Constitution.
Good thing it is already against the law.
And that is against the law as well. (Although it could be argued that it is constitutional… Indeed it was considered as such for over a hundred years.
All this is very well and good, it overlooks one detail though.. Chuck Baldwin will not be elected to anything. In my humble opinion he shouldn’t be because he would make it so any coherent foreign policy is imposable to peruse and he has cozied up with the truthers and the moonbats and has become something of a pied piper of misfits, just like Ron Paul. (I am not calling you a moonbat, truther or misfit, just FYI)
Again, there are 2 viable candidates in this race. To vote for the moonbat is to effectively vote for Obama.
Slavery is bad.
On October 8th, 2008 at 11:05 pm, Solo said:
I am sure that sounded clever when you read it back to yourself in the preview but it came out as just lame. It indicates the obvious as well; that you really don’t have a problem with an Obama presidency.
Heh, for the record I watched the second plane fly into the towers. I believe that fire can in fact melt steel and that all the Jews were not evacuated from the building… etc. So, wrong again.
Bill, you keep cutting snippets of my post, taking them out of context if no twisting them to imply the opposite of what I actually said and then responding to the twisted statements you made. That is not a particularly honest way to conduct discourse. Now that I know what you are up to I’ll not bother to respond to your posts any longer. Thanks for being so transparent.
On October 9th, 2008 at 9:27 am, Weary Citizen said:
9/11 Truth Movement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Participants
* Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
* Chuck Baldwin
* Kevin Barrett
* Robert M. Bowman
* Andreas von Bülow
* Immortal Technique
* A.K. Dewdney
* James Fetzer
* David Ray Griffin
* Sander Hicks
* Jim Hoffman
* Alex Jones
* Steven E. Jones
* David Lynch
* Annie Machon
* Lynn Margulis
* Michael Meacher
* Thierry Meyssan
* Morgan Reynolds
* Paul Craig Roberts
* William Rodriguez
* Michael Ruppert
* Peter Dale Scott
* David Shayler
* Charlie Sheen
* Webster G. Tarpley
* Jimmy Walter
* Barrie Zwicker
Here is Chuck supporting a new 9/11 Investigation.. And he believes that there was a Kennedy conspiracy as well.
We already had an investigation.
ObamaOsama took “credit” for it. Conspiracy theories are the first refuge of the weak mind.Not to mention withdrawing our foreign military bases is just a bad idea, among others.
Whelp, I am sorry if you really thing I was being dishonest. Taking what I see as the gist of the statement and answering it is the way I post. If I mischaracterized one of your statements let me know.
By the way, I know it is guilt by association but what the hell:
Alex Jones Endorses Chuck Baldwin!
Here is Alex being Alex.
Bill,
You mischaracterized virtually all of my statements. I don’t know what is worse. Either you won’t admit it or you don’t realize you did.
I suggest you return to your exhaustive study of the world’s collective knowledge and wisdom at Wikipedia.
Again, I’ll not bother with you any longer. Transmission out.
For the record you also believe that you’ll be thrown into a reeducation camp by obambi…truther. Get help before it’s too late, loon.
Translation: I don’t want to hear anything bad about Chuck “Grassy Knoll” Baldwin.
Fine.
On October 9th, 2008 at 11:45 pm, Solo said:
And once again, Solo does her best to persuade everyone that we should just stop worrying and learn to love Obama.
Wikipedia has had many many issues with data being correct. Anyone could go in and add the name of a person that said questions have been raised and perhaps should be looked into. Doesn’t mean he emphatically beleives it was a conspriracy.
As for the video, so what. The Kennedy thing is a tad odd, I agree. But he states clearly that some peopel have raised quesitons. He does not know without a doubt and an investigation to put all questions to bed is reasonable. What is ridiculous about that? Personally, I have no doubt who did it. But if it will shut up the Alex Jones of the world then let it be.
When he comes out and says “I beleive it was an inside job” then I will stop supporting him. Grabbing isolated snippets and saying here is your proof is disingenous. Just about anyone could do the exact same thing on mcamnesty and show he is and will always be a complete liberal (granted excluding truther nonsense) and will always be so. But you continue to beleive you will change his mind. Yea yea, I know I am voting for obummer. Give it a rest would ya?
Oh and the old guilt by association. Then by that logic, mcamensty is as liberal as you get. Let’s see. Mccain Kennedy. Mccain/feingold. His old buddy lieberamn. He debated switching tickets….. You may like mccain on your 1 big issue. Military. To me immigration is a much more pressing issue. Followed by the economy which he has done nothing more than advocate bigger gov’t and support earmarks (which he supposedly is against). Plus he has done little to limit entitlements and always seems to side with spending more whiel growing gov’t. 3 Strikes and he is out.
I am done with this nonsense. Vote for who you want. I am sitll not fully commmitted to Baldwin but I am certainly not voting for either of the 2 big parties.
Sure; However when you surround yourself with monbats you have to appeal to your constituency.
At least you are honest about it. I understand your frustration with McCain, but I believe the other alternative will mean an end to American exceptionalism and much of our sovereignty. Once we start believing/behaving like we are “world citizens” this country has had it.
I will be able to say I did what I could have done to stop it or at least slow it down.
Soon. I too am sick of this.