Data mining for the DNC, but not for national security
Can the Democrats’ “Do As I Say, Not As I Do” file get any bigger? Thanks to Jeff Poor at the Business and Media Institute, we now know that the Democratic National Committee is employing the very data mining techniques to build its party base that Democrat leaders have assailed when used by the Bush administration to prevent terrorist attacks.
Data mining for the DNC, but not for national security:
What’s in your wallet? Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean would like to know.
Dean and Republican National Committee Chairman Mike Duncan were speakers at a luncheon at the National Press Club Nov. 5, where both reflected on what went right and wrong with their efforts during the 2008 election cycle.
Dean revealed his party used credit card data to predict voting outcomes. However, Democrats and the media have been highly critical of credit card companies that provide that data.
“We now can do what they can do,” Dean said. “We have your credit card data like they do. They’ve been for years doing something that we, until 2006, weren’t able to do. We can predict with 85 percent accuracy how you’re going to vote based on your credit card data without bothering to see what party you’re in – the Secretary of State’s office.”
“They’ve been doing it for a long time,” Dean said of Republicans. “No wonder we’ve been throwing rocks at the bottom of the well. These guys – we can argue about how well they run the country, but they certainly know how to run elections.”
Dean’s admission that his party is using credit card data in elections is curious because a plank in the Democratic Party’s 2008 platform vows to regulate that very instrument through a “Credit Card Bill of Rights”…
Snooping to further partisan goals: Good. (Just ask Joe the Plumber.)
Snooping to investigate those funding and furthering jihad: Bad.
But oh, don’t you dare question their patriotism.
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- It’s ALL about Power–NOT the “little guy” « Mark Epstein
- Bloodthirsty Liberal » That’s Why They Call it MASTERcard
- Democrats Searched Your Wallet « The Liberty Boys
- Howard Dean’s hypocrisy » A Couple Things » A couple things about politics, sports, travel, and other stuff.
- Flying South with Obama! « Riggword Weblog
- Democrats Against Terrorist Data Mining But Are Fine With The DNC Doing It For Votes | Right Voices
- Data mining for the DNC, but not for national security: | Citizen-Right
- The Mud Pit » DNC Uses Data Mining For Votes, Not For National Security
- Data mining for the DNC, but not for national security « Top Daily Digest Reading
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Is this legal?
This will only work for awhile - until the illegals have so messed up everyone’s ID that the data mine collapses from chaos.
Can they predict people’s birthplaces from their birth certificates yet?
I don’t think security is a priority for them since they elected a POTUS that couldn’t get a security clearance.
I wonder if they have gotten good enough to read my lips at this very moment…
I guess it won’t be long before everything I do and say, will be monitored by this government. Orwell’s “1984″.
I hate liberals.
I really do.
I do not question their patriotism.
I deny it!
…. and my wife wonders why I’m paranoid about politicians and power. Gee maybe they could collect hair samples at the barbershop trash cans and analyze if there are more granola crunchers than “Big Mac” eaters.
GEEEES!!!!!
You people should hear day all the care centers in communities over Queens leading the kids in chorus praises of Obama. I guess every classroom will start hanging president portraits up front now. My 2nd numbed shock; my civil servant relative who works at the massive social security building (the Addabo(?) Building) here - the largest outside Washington D.C., says they’re already looking into expansion into another block to house “new programs.”
My ace number one concern is what can I / Republicans on the Hill, do to forestall implementation of social and entitlement programs that can’t be rescinded, no matter WHOSE administration succeeds Obama’s. This is major ball because these are black holes for my wallets and yours!
James Greenidge
Jamaica Queens, NY
I would think all the false registrations, phantom voters, and democratic poll workers would mess up the data as to make it worthless.
PS, Hey O’Bonzo, show me your birth certificate.
Noe, now, we must learn not to use such phrases as ‘black hole’. It’s a new world a comin’
Michelle is on with Mike Gallagher today. Hope she will mention this kind of proctoscopic mining. A citizen should not be subjected to this kind of crap by a political machine on either side.
They don’t need to snoop on me to know how I voted….Reluctantly McCain. I ain’t uh-Biden nObama.
Palin/Jindal - Jindal/Palin ‘012
To paraphrase Jeremiah Wright,the spiritual inspiration of the Marxist left, God &^%* the snoopers!
The Repub’s have no spokesperson. All are “let’s get along people” and be good guys. The ONLY person with any guts to stand up to the Dem’s and expose them and their wrong deeds is SARAH! Man, it was so refreshing to hear her with that lilt to her voice skewer those pompous blowhards on the left. She has the guts, character and courage to bring real change to our country. That’s why the Left has to destroy her. Peggy, George, Kathleen and some McCain (unnamed) campaign aides are helping the Left try to do it. Stand up for SARAH!
Actually in a way, what you observed is good news.
Obama now has to deliver. The expectations he has fermented are almost beyond unreasonable. Obama’s socialist model forgets one thing. He’s got to get what he wants implemented through Congress.
JFK, Carter, Clinton, several Presidents has these VISIONS that ended when things got into Congress. Pelosi and Reid have their own agendas. They still do not have a filabuster proof Senate. We have the opportunity “raise hell” with the House members since they are always looking at the next election. And they have more than spent all of the money.
So IMO we got game…and when The One does not meet expectations, the grumbling begins.
@15
Sadly, Obama does not have to deliver. Any failings will be blamed on Bush and the MSM will do a full-court press to back that up.
Complaining about what “they” do is useless. Conservatives have to get tougher and meaner. I see on this blog all the time, fools saying, “We are better than that.” “Let’s not stoop to their level.” dumb dumb dumb And the liberals won. Good job…
How can this be legal? Michael Moore should do a movie about it.
I don’t question their patriotism at all. Because they have NO patriotism!
At all!
The left is offended by the intrusiveness of the patriot act, but data mining of personal data on ordinary citizens is ok.
Don’t question the party of Big Brother
I disagree - of course we need to be tough (as in having convictions and sticking to them) but we don’t need to be mean. What conservatives need to do a) Have a conservative plan (think back to Newt’s contract with America) b) Articulate that plan c) Articulate that plan, d) Articulate that plan. Show why that plan is BETTER.
This past election was lost because many people couldn’t tell what the R’s stand for.
The reason I’m one of those fools, is that without integrity, what’s the point. I can cheat, steal, lie and use countless forms of subterfuge, but what do we gain if we compromise our ideals?
Can anyone publish the names of DNC operatives who headed up this effort. They need to be shamed and their shame needs to live in infamy.
In other words, they’ve rationalized their unethical behavior as necessary to compete. Apparently, Howard Dean believes that when a Republican administration mines credit card data or any other data for information on terrorists, it’s just a cover for the political data mining they really want to do.
Whether the rest of the DNC leadership believes the same as Dean does can not be established from this article. But it does clearly show Dean for a disgusting, corrupt little paranoiac.
I’d love for Obama and his friends to fill out an SF-86 (Questionnaire for National Security Positions) and let the investigators do their work.
Well, for starters, here’s EO 12333, which covers Intelligence Activities. These three paragraphs may interest some here:
These are not Americans, these are enemies of the constitution, What would Samuel Adams do with them?
Remember all the outrage when it was discovered that eeevil Starr Chamber prosecutors were looking into Monica Lewinsky’s book purchases?
Paging Keith Olbermann.
Agree.
Simply put and correct.
President Obama…
Remember how little outrage there was in the MSM when Michael Steele’s credit report was STOLEN by the Democratic Senate Campaign group headed up by Chuck Schumer???
I think it’s time to put a lock on my credit reports. I don’t know if that will stop them, but hopefully it will at least slow them down.
Oh, that explains why we never, ever, not once got a call from the Obama campaign, despite our residence in a “swing” state. Nor did we get one from Mark Warner’s Democrat senate campaign. Or the Democrat running for Congress. Let’s see, pays credit card off every month on time — obviously Republican.
Our cc data shows we aren’t looking for a handout/bailout, so why bother seeking our vote?
Adams was one of the instigators of the “Boston tea party” He created a confrontations with the British in order to galvanize the colonials. I believe we are not near that point of rebellion. It is true our constitution has been corrupted but not to the point of armed revolt.
If the situation in this country demands a separation of the government from the governed, I’d be the first up from with my rifle on full automatic. We thankfully are not at the point. We have laws and a Constitutions that still has enough substance left to implement punishment for those without clear standards of civil behavior.
Most of us on this blog believe in the rule of law. We believe in elevated standards. WE SHOULD NEVER COMPROMISE WHAT WE ARE, REGARDLESS OF THE ACTS OF OUR OPPOSITION.
Change you WILL believe in or else.
Just what the heck is going to have to happen for us to take our lives back from these bottom feeders? WHAT!!!! Are we here just to serve their purposes; that we have no value except what they can squeeze out of us? They are the tail that’s wagging this dog and we have all lost our way.
Apparantly a whole bunch of Obama workers didn’t get paid what he promised. My advise to them? Get used to it.
The question has not been answered:
Is this legal?
This is not about national security - this is about politicians. Show me where I gave credit card companies the right to give them data.
No need to vote anymore. Democrats will just determine how you would vote based on credit card data and do it for you.
Have you ever actually read the fine fine print no those notices they send you about change in privacy policies?
Its the democrats, the question is irrelevant.
Yes SoCal I’m as mad as your are that the majority of the electorate chose to think with their sexual plumbing and not with their heads. I have watched the press for two years elevate Obama to a status he didn’t deserve.
We understand that his agenda is to replace the protection from the government, to the protection by the government. He plans to attempt this through the rule of law. He wants a second Bill of Rights that would guarantee possessions, which would destroy the intent of our Constitution.
There are millions of us out here that are aware of this. There are millions that can stop those politicians that would help him.
i don’t see how firmly pointing out when and how they do things wrong/ do bad things or flat out lie is stooping to their level.
not speaking up just shows that you are a sucker and encourages them to keep doing it.
standing up for the truth is not a bad thing.
#1)
#2)
#3)
I hate to use one of the socialists’ favorite weasel words; but I think it would be apprpriate here - “context”.
Each of the three statements above is correct - in the appropriate “context”.
#1 is correct when your “opponent” (enemy) is coming for your throat with a knife, while you’re fecklessly trying to counter by quoting “Robert’s Rules of Order”.
#2 & #3 would be OK if your “opponent” had essentially the same viewpoint as you; and the purpose of the debate were, for example, how best to print counterfeit-proof money, after you both agreed that counterfeit-proof money is the way to go; or whether you’re trying to compromise on the choice of color for the chairrails.
However, that does not appear to be where we find ourselves now.
Now, we have socialists/statists/collectivists with a diametrically opposite worldview from most of us here at this blog.
Diametrically, completely opposite - why else would the socialists have a completely opposite position on virtually every, if not every topic discussed in
Washington (as well as at this blog)?
When positions (worldviews) are such polar opposites, there is no middle ground - none.
Any attempt at “compromise”, or “meeting halfway” is interpreted by Communists, Nazis, Muslim jihadis, and our socialists/statists, correctly, as weakness - and as the best reason for further, renewed, relentless attack.
Just look at Israel’s struggle; the consequences of Munich 1938; the consequences of accomodating Stalin at Yalta 1945; the consequences of trillions of dollars’ spending on the “War on Poverty” and other social-spending disasters over the past 40+ years; and you should get the point.
Back to position #1, position #2, or position #3 above (I’m channeling Monty Hall) - where do you think our country is, or is headed for, right now?
Are we simply having a friendly discussion among reasonable folks who all pretty much think the same on the bedrock issues; and differ only on superficial, relatively unimportant, matter-of-taste details?
Or, are we locked in a win-or-lose, existential struggle with “opponents” (enemies might not be inaccurate) who differ from us at the very root (hence the terms radical, radically different - “radix” is Latin for “root”) of the way the world is viewed; and whose aim is to “transform” (read destroy) our society/nation/culture?
What “context” do you feel we are in?
Once you’ve decided that, you can decide whether you essentially want to bring a knife to the gunfight we find ourselves in.
This struggle was not of our choosing nor making.
However, we are in it now.
I believe the socialists/statists have attacked us traditionalists…and it is up to us to decide whether, and how, to defend ourselves; and whether, and how, to defend/preserve our nation/society/culture.
Otherwise, the “individual”, as we know the term, except for the elite few, might well essentially cease to exist.
Yep.
I think it’s about time we got tougher and meaner.
Buried deep in my credit card data is an image of me with hold a sign saying.
Kiss My Ass DNC
Data Mine all you want Howie. You’re party is still heading down the tubes in the coming elections.
Pace, trolls…this is a metaphor.
Victory and the chance to forge our ideals into law so that the other can never agains have the chance to steal, cheat and lie their way into office again.
I’m not saying this is how we should do it, but if this defeat teaches us anything, it’s that the other side plays dirty (witness: ACORN; witness: public finance constraints; witness: the media’s blatant partisanship) and if we insist on always wearing the white hat, it may be at our own peril.
Nutz! “…never
againshave…. .”granite and DBNinKY
How does this make us better than Obama’s friend Ayers? Ayers has ideals and was willing to do anything to achieve his goals.
WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT
I agree with you, we are better than that, and am in no way advocating violence or inappropriate behavior to achieve a political goal.
However, there has to better strategizing from our side or we’ll never again win a national election. We can’t take-on the media backed Democrats by tying our candidates to public financing and by placing our opponents weakest character flaws “off-limits,” like McCain’s refusal to go after Wright.
Republicans need to take off the white gloves and fight for the American people by fighting to win elections. That’s all I meant.
Okay.
Where do you think we are?
What “context” are we in?
Based on your answers to the above two questions, what would be your recommendations for what traditionalists/conservatives should do starting now?
Anything different?
Same-old same-old?
What?
My thinking exactly.
Yep.
Again, my thinking exactly.
So keep tugging that forelock and bending that knee, and keep those dreams of freedom well hidden because “we’re better than that”. I would imagine a lot of the citizens of every authoritarian society feel just as you do. Or, realize that we are in a struggle for the country, and engage. That doesn’t mean start bombing government buildings. It means:
1) Take back the RNC and evict all RINOs.
2) Break down conservatism into easily understandable fundamental goals and principles.
3) Articulate these every day in every available forum.
4) Practice what you preach. DO NOT support RINOs, nor suffer them to have RNC funding.
5) Recruit conservative candidates at every level of government and fund them lavishly. The single biggest reason Obamessiah was elected was the nearly 1 billion dollars spent on his behalf, not to mention contributions in kind from the media. In this context, work to overturn McCain-Feingold and other restrictions that only apply to Republicans/conservatives.
6) NEVER LET ANOTHER RINO WIN THE GOP PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION. That goes double for the McCains of the world.
7) Come out fighting. McCain ran the most inept presidential campaign in the history of presidential campaigns because he “was better than that”. He allowed a deeply flawed individual to attain the highest office in the country, and still doesn’t understand that it happened because he refused to expose those flaws (until the final days of the campaign, when it just made him look desperate). Jeremiah Wright’s face should have been the most well-known face in the country. Ayers and Dorn should have been on campaign (or WANTED) posters all over the country. Obama’s own speeches and writings should have been used in campaign ads and commercials from the moment he won the Dem nomination. Without saying a single untrue (or “unfair”) thing, nor taking a single remark “out of context” Obamessiah’s campaign could and should have been destroyed.
Good post!
So, like if I buy arugula I’m an Obama light worker but if I buy a Winchester rifle I’m a right-wing conservative lunatic?
Good thing I don’t have any credit cards.
It’s not just the credit cards, the 1994 Crime Act (Dem Congress and President) allowed “sneak and peak” warrants to be issued against private residences in cases involving marijuana. However when Bush used the same “sneak and peak” warrants against the terrorists in al qaeda he was shouted down as a facist by the same Democrats. Lovely people. I guess that they are more worried about pot smokers than about murderous terrorists.
anyone familiar with chicago politics will understand they will stop at nothing to win and push their agenda. begalla says of emanuel, “he’s a cross between a hemorhoid and a toothache” and he will literally do anything to get his way. can’t wait to see how the press reacts to emanuel and obama when the love fest is over.
graniteman #14 too true. i nearly came to blows with my brother over sarahs virtues while he gave me the feminazi crap fed to him from his wife. my only happy thought of the last 2 days is california voted down the gay marriage right, and it was basically blacks who cast the crushing votes. his wife is a california lib who lived in the bay area and eats arrugela but of course can’t cook water.
Hmmm….
Is that a polite way of suggesting someone might have his head up his @$$?
Couldn’t resist….
Lest we forget:
“All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal ERRRRR have much better computer skills than others.”
*out*
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley law prohibits the sharing of information obtained by any financial services provider, credit bureau, etc. with any affiliated or unaffiliated company or entity without notice to the consumer.
The law requires notices to be sent out annually to (in this case) credit card holders stating what the law provides for and what the company policy is regarding sharing data with others. You are given a phone number, email address, and a mail address to communicate your desire to “opt-out” of having your information shared by the company.
Hint, it is in those flyers that you get once a year from your bank, credit card company, insurance company, etc. that you glance at before shrugging and throwing away without taking any action.
OK GUYS
If your not talking armed insurrection at this time, we’re on the same page.
‘Course, that’s just what shows that we the folks get the short end most every time:
the default position is that our information is shared, and we have to act in order to not have it shared;
rather than the default position’s being that our information is not shared, unless the company(ies) get(s) explicit permission from the cardholder to share it.
Come to think of it, might that not be a way for conservatives to bash the Big Brother socialists/statists?
That is not what is being discussed.
But, seriously, what “context” do you think we are in?
Do you think that the socialists/statists/collectivists are relentlessly - relentlessly - striving to “transform”, which means to destroy, our nation/society/culture…or not?
Do you seriously believe that there is middle, or common ground; or a “halfway point”, between the two worldviews…or not?
Where is the middle ground between the individual’s being of prime importance; and the indiividual’s being swallowed up by the all-powerful state?
Where is the middle ground between the zygote’s (fertilized egg’s) being an individual; and its being merely a clump of cells?
Where is the middle ground between believing that humans possess a soul; and believing that no such thing as a soul exists?
Where is the middle ground between believing that Man acts no differently from an animal, and that his thoughts, actions, feelings, etc. are nothing more than chemical and neurochemical processes;
and believing that Man has free will and a soul, which account for his thoughts, feelings, and actions?
Admittedly, our country, indeed life itself, will never be perfect; and certain contrary views of some people will have to be tolerated.
But, I’m not sure that toleration is the same as acceptance, even acceptance halfway.
That brings up another example of incompatibility of the two worldviews:
Where is the middle ground between believing that Man and life are perfectible, if only enough money, rewards and penalties, and raw power and control are expended;
and believing that Man and life are imperfect, that we must learn how to choose the “less bad” of imperfect choices, and that life has never been, is not, and just never will be “fair”?
#58 granite, I like it!
granite
A culture may seek perfection but a political dogma that says it has the answers should be watched with great suspicion. There are culturally destructive legal attempts that need to be suppressed. Abortion and gay marriage are contemporary examples.
Perfection can never be attained, but our Constitution limits the power of government so we as individual may seek it on a personal level. I’m not a religious man, so I have the luxury to look at issues purely from the side of what is best for me and my family. I believe there will always be those who will attempt to push their own selfish causes without regard to others.
Constant vigilance.
Yep.
As the saying goes…Amen to that.
granite
I opposed abortion and gay marriage for the same reason I worked against anti discrimination laws. These forms of social engineering leave open endless legal challenges. The legal “slippery slopes” of these changes in our culture will continue to erode our country until a defined limit is reached. Equal pay for women is another matter. There are few variations in the number of possible sexes, therefor the legal challenges are limited.
Almost forgot.
I can accept that as an answer to the question!
Thank you.
Thank you granite!
I call this Big Barack, Clinton was a domestic spy too with his Echelon program.
If the Democrats get their own TV channel (and they might if
theywhen nationalize) it’ll be called NBH..Nothing But Hypocrisy and every TV set will have a camera, to keep you safe.Meter gets pegged again.
There isn’t any.
When does the zygote which is almost as likely to be sloughed off by the uterus as not, become a sentient being?
At what point does contraception become barbarity?
The Dem Party’s 21st century, “Big Brother” mode of operation is/will-be no different than that of the 20th century National Socialists.
#71On November 6th, 2008 at 4:05 pm,
How can one being “sense”, for sure, the precise instant at which another being becomes sentient?
If we cannot tell, then I should think we should err on the side of life as much and as often as possible.
I’m pretty sure contraception (contra-conception) is not what so many people find barbaric.
It’s the intentional - for reasons of convenience - destruction/killing of the post conception zygote that is frightening and horrible…i.e., barbaric.
And, what is meant by reasons of convenience is, “OMG, I’m not ready to have a baby now! So, I think I’ll get rid of the zygote; it’s just a clump of cells, anyway.”
You should think it would take a biblical definition to make a clump of cells become a human or be a barbarity.
When does personal choice (and whats more personal than reproduction) become an act of murder.
When does personal choice become a human aware?
Is it the potential of human life or the actuality that rises to the level of force of law?
From the FCRA:
The only other exception is for National Security Clearance, which the entire country did not apply for.
Notice, there is no legal cause for disclosure due to “political or market research”.
Here’s what to do:
1) Write the three Credit Reporting Agencies, and determine if you information was released to anyone in the past two years on what is known as a “soft hit”. Ask for the name, address, and contact number for each soft hit. Your normal credit report will not contain these, as they do not affect score. As rightly noted above, these are used to pre-qualify customers for credit related purposes.
2) Write the National and local DNC, and demand under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, the Freedom of Information Act, and any local Sunshine laws you may have, to know if they have in their possession or have requested without your authorization any credit or SSN related information related to you. Note in your letter that you do not give them permission to use any personal information. Note in your letter that a lack of response will be treated as confirmation that such information is in their possession, and that you will file a police report, and FTC identity theft report, and potentially a report with the FBI for Social Security fraud.
3) Immediately write the CRA’s, and demand to be excluded from pre-qualification notices.
4) Follow up and file reports. It is the only way to protect yourself from the DNC’s identity theft. Who knows when they will sell that information to ACORN or La Raza to help them in their SSN-only Illegal Immigration efforts.
Identity theft is no laughing matter, and even more scary when political organizations are the ones breaking the law.
Sorry, I don’t see that as an actual comparison.
It rather reminds me of the “No soap, radio”, or “Do you walk to work, or do you carry your own lunch?” attempts at humor back when I was in college.
By definition, I should think that if abortion, is being considered, then reproduction is not being considered.
Bringing “personal choice” into the discussion takes us back to a “conflict of visions”, as Thomas Sowell’s excellent book is titled.
If the mother/both parents/society believe that there is no such thing as a soul;
that the zygote is but a clump of cells;
that the “personal” feelings, desires and convenience of the mother/both parents are of paramount, primary, overriding importance…then, what’s the big deal, right?
I mean, a guy and a gal screwed for no other reason than for fun, intimacy and pleasure; and figure that the zygote is no big deal - that hey, that clump of cells ain’t gonna inconvenience them.
In fact, the mere asking of the questions of the presence of sentience, of the ability to survive outside the womb, indicate to which worldview the asker holds.
On the other hand, the folks who screw for all those reasons above…but who also believe that an individual - an individual human, with a unique set of 46 chromosomes - comes into existence at that instant that the egg is fertilized; and who also believe in the existence of the soul; and who believe that their personal feelings and convenience are not of overriding importance; are not the only things that matter, or are what matter the most…well, those folks are faced with a moral dilemma - and they know it.
In years past, that’s most likely why there were “shotgun” weddings; why the guy married the gal to make her an honest woman (and in so doing civilized himself); why so many first children were a wee bit “early”.
This abortion question, regarding the actuality of human life, as far as I am aware, deals with the zygote/embryo/fetus;
whether the full, diploid complement of 46 chromosomes “qualifies” the zygote as human, (sentient or not), and thus deserving of, and entitled to, protection by the law.
It does not - again, as far as I am aware - deal with the potential for human life, which was, if I remember correctly, the difficulty raised for Catholics in the 60s when “the pill” became available, and the Pope told his flock that it would not be right to use “the pill”.
This topic ain’t easy, by any means.
I was 20 years old once, too, and had the same drive as those of everyone else, including those who have gone before us for thousands of years.
It’s how those drives are tempered and controlled for the benefit and stability of society that is the job of morality; of shame; of behavior norms; and, yes, in part, of religion and of law.
…are not the only things that matter, or are NOT what matter the most….
Apologies.
another good reason to use only cash..
This observation is interesting, it addresses the the casual sex consequence.
Children started by accident should not be who pays the price, sex wasn’t their choice.
People do change their minds and relationships do fail.
Having had a girlfriend get an abortion for mandatory health reasons I can assure you that couples will nearly always break up over the forced (for any reason) losing of a baby and that’s one part of the equation lost in the debate.
For people who already have children its devastating.
So far your comments have been concerned with morals and that’s fine but the Constitution doesn’t and can’t control personal issues.
Of course sex and reproduction are very personal issues.
How does the question(s) of whats personal choice and who decides or not get answered?
A tough, unfortunate decision to have to make.
And, obviously very different from the convenience-driven, selfish choice discussed above.
The Judeo-Christian heritage (essentially The Ten Commandments) is our basis for morality, and also for law.
And no, I am light years away from being a biblical scholar…believe me.
But:
Don’t cheat on your spouse;
Don’t envy people their possessions, and do not desire their spouses;
Respect your elders (honor your parents);
Don’t lie;
These might be considered “morals”; they are a guide as to how people should treat each other.
Do not murder;
Do not steal;
Do not lie (again) - here, under oath in a court of law…or when signing one’s name to a legal document, such as a contract.
Here, these could be considered part of our laws.
I have heard the phrase, “You can’t legislate morality” for about 40 years.
That’s BS.
The truth is, we have legislated, and do legislate morality when we pass laws that are intended to ensure that we treat each other fairly and honestly; and that we do not harm each other, for example.
The laws aren’t just “there”.
The bedrock ideas on which the laws are based don’t just “appear” like a lightbulb flash in some legislator’s head.
Our morality has guided our legislation.
Well, yes it (and laws in general) does.
I personally might want to beat my wife and kids; or steal that other guy’s new car, or his wallet, or his new coat.
I personally might be attracted to young teen girls.
I personally might want to slander and libel someone whom I dislike.
I personally might want to let my kids go without adequate food or decent clothes, so that my girlfriend and I can take a vacation.
And so on…, but, the law(s) say(s) I cannot do those things.
I personally might believe that there is no such thing as a soul; and personally might believe that the zygote is nothing special, not an individual deserving of, and entitled to, protection whenever possible;
and I might personally believe the woman should have sole and absolute authority over whether to abort that clump of cells.
Well, just as with my personally believing that I should be able to lie in court, or steal & rob, or assault someone;
so with my personally believing that the zygote is nothing special, and that a woman need consider no one and nothing else before aborting the “clump of cells”…:
Just my thinking so doesn’t make it so, or right.
Laws have been passed to discourage and punish murder, larceny, purjury, etc, because most folks felt and believed that they should be discouraged and punished.
We’ll have to wait and see how most folks feel about whether “the clump of cells” should at least be given legal recognition, and some degree of advocacy and protection;
and whether abortion should be discouraged (not punished with trials, penalties, and sentences), rather than encouraged, which is essentially what mandated taxpayer funding does (or, would do - I am not an attorney, and cannot quote chapter and verse what the actual, current legal status and degree of abortion funding by the taxpayer is).
It is a simple, inconvenient, stubborn, if unsophisticated fact that if bad behavior is rewarded, the result will be more bad behavior.
As with laws against theft, murder, purjury, fraud, etc…my best guess, and my choice, would be “We the People”, though referenda and through our legislatures - most certainly not 5 out of 9 unaccountable, uncontrollable court justices through their “opinions”.
And no, I am no Bible expert; I am light years away from being a
bBiblical scholar….Apologies.
P.S.
It’s a pleasure to have a most polite and friendly discussion with you.
Thank you!
For discussion and illustrative purposes only.
Been married to a wonderful gal for 31+ years!
The truth is, we have legislated, and do legislate immorality.
Court actions have forced the acceptance of unwanted, nation harming and un-traditional immoral standards.
Thank you for the discussion, your opinions have been interesting and appreciated.