Navy beats enviro-nitwits
Some good news to report: The Supreme Court has sided with the Navy and national security over the enviro-nitwits in a long-running dispute over sonar training exercises off the southern California coast. (I’ve covered the issue since 2002.)
Bloomberg reports:
The U.S. Supreme Court, ruling that national security trumps environmental rules, lifted restrictions on the Navy’s use of sonar during training exercises off the coast of Southern California.
A divided high court rejected arguments by environmentalists that the judge-ordered restrictions were warranted to protect whales and other marine mammals.
The environmental interests “are plainly outweighed by the Navy’s need to conduct realistic training exercises to ensure that it is able to neutralize the threat posed by enemy submarines,” Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the majority.
The case tested the power of the White House and the military to skirt federal environmental regulations in the name of national security. The Bush administration argued that courts should be deferential when the president concludes that a military exercise is essential for the country’s safety.
Two justices, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter, dissented, while two others, Stephen Breyer and John Paul Stevens, agreed with Roberts in part.
The ruling applies to the last of 14 training exercises designed to prepare naval strike groups for deployment in the western Pacific and Middle East.
As I wrote six years ago:
Despite numerous precautions and mitigation measures being taken by the Navy, Mark Palmer of the San Francisco-based Earth Island Institute fretted on CNN…that the system is a “sonar bomb” developed by the Navy “to attack whales and other sorts of things in the name of finding submarines, and we don’t think it’s appropriate. We know very little about the effects on fish, on squid, on other types of marine organisms.”
Foreign enemies invaded our borders and murdered over 3,000 men, women and children on Sept. 11. Hundreds of thousands of young men and women have volunteered to make sure it doesn’t happen again. And all this guy can worry about is the comfort level of squid and plankton?
Of course, Navy planners should be conscientious environmental stewards. They are. The branch will spend upwards of $700 million next year on environmental protection alone. But the balance between environmental protection and military effectiveness is out of whack. Isn’t it time to put American lives over spineless invertebrates-human and otherwise?
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Categories: Enviro-nitwits
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Its about freakin time–now if we can only get Vieques bombing range back, then it will be a great day for the Navy again.
GSP
Can we drill too?
Disoriented squid make lovely sushi…
I have always wanted to try whale…
Chief Justice Roberts delivered the opinion of the Court !
“To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.” - Looks like that statement familiar !
Someone should tell Flipper to not be a h8r.
Well, if the exercises were doing so much damage to the whales, why didn’t they show up on the beaches en masse?
The envirowhackos’ arguments were thin at best, as they usually are.
Just like the alleged Spotted Owl situation, which brought California (and other states’) logging to a virtual halt. Only to find out they weren’t going extinct at all.
I love John Roberts.
NO
As an Army vet, I feel compelled to offer a correction:
Sailors ARE squid.
But inter-service rivalry aside, let’s hear it for the Navy, and the Supreme Court!
Given the advances of technology, modern subs are hard enough to locate underwater as it is without tying the Navy’s hands behind its back when it wants to train on how to find them.
Anyone who recalls how not so long ago that Chinese sub popped up from out of nowhere within easy torpedo range of one of our carriers should celebrate this court decision.
I’m sorry but national defense trumps environmental activism any day of the week.
This is a small victory in a larger war. There is constant pressure on both the military, military members, and military families to conform to the wishes, mores, and expectations of an American people too stupid to either understand or appreciate the constant vigilance required to remain safe and free. The American people would rather use Veteran’s Day as a day off to plant their butts on their couches rather than support the military.
While I appreciate the delicate echo balance that whales and other sea creatures encounter, human beings are under more constant threat of annihilation. The question is: what’s more important- whales or national defense. I’m not sure the enviro-wackjobs understand such considerations.
Enviro-wackos have no loyalty to their own species, not to mention the United States. They’re no different from that computer-generated goon in the “Matrix” movie, who equated humanity to a virus.
I’ve said it before, the enviro-totalitarians won’t be satisfied until what’s left of humanity is calling the trees home again. Any defeat for them is automatically a win for humankind.
Sushi, anyone?
Just kidding. I do, however, marvel at how far environmentalists will go in putting out their fellow human beings to save a whale.
To those who think people should abort, sterilize, or off themselves to save the planet, my response (at least to the third point is) is: YOU FIRST.
National defense should always trump environment when necessary. The enviro-whack jobs are only obliviously useful idiots backed by communist organizations who are fronted by “environmental” groups still activiely focused on the destruction of the capitalistic west. Those who financially support and prod the envirowhacos certainly do know the considerations of their actions.
Squidley here. Active sonar(the kind so popular in WWII movies) is rarely used. For the most part, passive sonar is used(large hydrophones or hydrophone arrays), with the input run through massive data banks to compare it with known sounds. ACTIVE sonar, on the other hand, is only used when necessary - usually to confirm the location of an enemy submarine, and possibly to provide a firing solution for countermeasures. There are many different sonar frequencies used.
As bubbleheads are fond of saying, “There are two kinds of ships - submarines and targets.” I never wanted to be a target, but I couldn’t see myself going to sea in a ship that was designed to sink. Ergo, I would prefer to be on a vessel that has the ability - and AUTHORITY - to protect itself. If that means active sonar, Bravo Zulu.
“to attack whales and other sorts of things in the name of finding submarines…”
When was it policy to attack whales and other sorts of “things”?
These people definitely are missing not only chromosomes, but a bunch of gray matter in the noggin.
Sonar “finds” subs. It does not attack.
Morons.
This ruling is an absolute TRAVESTY. 5-4? Are you F#^%%$ing KIDDING ME??? With the Chinese pumping out attack subs like sausages, I think we need to raise McCarthy from the dead to take a good close look at those 4…
Once again the safety of the free world was decided by the insanity of a Kennedy… How long are we going to keep playing chicken with the freight train?
For now. January 2009 is coming.
Go Navy! Um, morons who dissent, these exercises are to protect humans!
my head hurts
Now if only we could do something about that blasted desert tortoise at the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin, CA and the red-cockaded woodpecker, which hinders training at many Army posts east of the Mississippi.
Well if 9/11 wasn’t the wakeup call it should have been, then the game of chicken will be afoot until we have a nuclear Pearl Harbor ourselves. Or Isreal acts drastically in their own defense which will set off cascading events in the Middle East and around the world.
FWIW, I believe the issue was the use of EER sonobuoys, which use an explosive charge to generate a large echo return. WHen you’re certain a threat is out there and it’s not necessary to ensure he doesn’t know you’re looking for him, the bangers are the surest, quickest way to find him.
Yay to the Navy! I would say something like environuts may someday come to their senses, but as a case in point one of my friends on the west coast told me she would have liked Palin more if she wasn’t all about killing polar bears…I replied with I would like Obama more if he wasn’t all for killing babies both in and out of the womb. She said there was no comparison as if the bears were far more important. Jeez.
Sailors and soldiers have a LOT of sayings. One of my favorites: “Rule one: The Chief is always right. Rule two: See rule one.”
Subs rarely use active. It’s like firing a flare from a beacon with a sign that says ‘Here I am!’. It’s considered, in naval jargon, not good.
However, ASW (anti-submarine warefare) vessels very well may. Also, ASW aircraft may drop sonar torpedos, as anyone who’s ever watched ‘Hunt for Red October’ knows. Do libs think the Ruskis or Chinese will give a darn about whales?
When active sonar is used, it’s like when a police officer or law-abiding gun owner uses a firearm. (No wonder libs instinctively hate it!)
The enviro-whackos mistake opinion for fact and use rampant speculation to form their opinions. It’s why they hold Global Warming seminars during record-breaking winter cold and then don’t recognize the irony.
Still, if this ruling is a balm for one’s conservative soul, do not get used to it. Obama’s closing down of Camp Gitmo (to use Rush’s tagline) may be just the beginning. Clinton, and Carter before him, did a lot of damage to the Armed Services before they figured out the American People did not thank them for it.
Finally… If you libs are bummed out, don’t worry. Your black President (as the t-shirts say) may very well put the security of the nation second, using the loophole the ruling provided. Obama (or Carter II, as I will call him) may very well put his re-election on the line. Heh. Yeah, right!
True DA - and beyond the suspected position of the target. Been so long since I got my ESWS, I forgot a bunch.
Sonobuoys. NOT sonar torpedos. Thanks Dexter Alarius.
Go Navy!
The eco-Marxists will run wild during the reign of The One. Cap & Trade, drilling bans, heavy subsidies for unproven, inefficient “alternatives”, increased offshoring of heavy industry to escape the reign of terror. In short, it’s gonna be a disaster.
cpo, Capn; in another life I worked on an ASW program. The threat out there is real and growing and if we aren’t able to use all the tools at our disposal to protect ourselves, it could get ugly.
BTW, I was the token USAF guy on the program. But, I gave as good as I got from my swabby brethren.
I believe in Texas that’s called fishing…
(Just kidding…)
Funny, I thought they had a bye last weekend to get ready for the Notre Dame game.
But seriously, if whales are anywhere near as intelligent as the enviro-whackjobs think they are, they would detour around the SOCAL OpArea while the ASW folks were going active. As a career surface guy, I know that the counter-detection range of active sonar is at least 4 times as far as its detection range. In layman’s terms, you can hear an active sonar banging away much farther away than its useful tactical range. It’s kind of like hearing the subwoofers in some A-hole’s car a block away before you can tell what song is playing. Even whales are smart enough to avoid that.
Nah, There’s a big difference. In Texas, y’all want them fishies to float to the surface so you can take them home.
In the Navy, y’all want them to make a noise so you can find them. THEN you want to make them either float to the surface, or “sleep with the fishies”. Last thing you want to do is take ‘em home.
Dexter Alarius
In another life, I served a year on a sub, before they got smart enough to kick me off.
What little I know of ASW is from being on the receiving end. (As they say on submarines, NOT a lot of fun.)
cpodug… What about that whole CIA/Glomar Explorer thing?
Different case, Capn - that was already sunk. I’m referring to the ones that are trying to sink ME, in the here and now. If I’m on a combatant, I wanna shoot first, not shoot back.
Is anybody really surprised that Ginsburg would dissent? Just think what will happen when Obama puts some more nut cases on the Supreme Court.
Seriously, it takes a special kind of guy to work in a hollow tube poking around hundreds of feet underwater. I salute you! I spent my time in a hollow tube thousands of feet above the ground… but not for months at a time!
Answer: Submarine
Question “what’s long and cylindrical and full of seamen?” yuk, yuk
Dexter - the first thing they teach prospective submariners is basic math - you take the number of times the boat goes down, add it to the number of times it comes back up and divide by two. If there’s anything left over, you might be in trouble
cpo,
THey have the same math teacher for us wrt Takeoffs versus Landings. It’s always good when they’re equal.
Often heard on landings during my missions: Take THAT, you runway you!
I was NOT a pilot. My life was in others’ hands!
Three rules of submariner
1) Keep the number of dives equal to the number of surfaces
2) Keep the water out of the people tank
3) Do not violate rule 1 or 2
NOW do you see how important the choice of President is? Thanks to mushy GHWB and Bill the Zipper, we have these 2. BHO says he’ll look at the “heart” of his potential nominees…that’s reassuring.
Got many, many sea stories during my terms as a C-School instructor. Unfortunately, most of them are either too long for this forum, or would get me permanently banned. I’m sure all you other vets around here know a bunch of them, too, but with the same caveat.
That’s why we have to keep Justice Kennedy alive at all costs! In fact, I’m in favor of propping him up “El Cyd” style long enough to get a non-Dem to replace him.
If you try this template:
Liberals hate America.
Liberals don’t consider us to be at war.
If we are at war, our defeat would be the best thing, anyway.
–Then you will understand the positions of the left a lot better.
As a former ASW officer, I am happy to hear this.
The US Navy’s ASW training is hurting everywhere except in the sub community, so we didn’t need environmentally mandated bans on the use of active sonar. Anyone who knows the surface fleet knows we tend to be fans of active sonar
(Fondly remembering being topside while listening to complex waveforms propagating through the water around the ship…it is like music)
We don’t need Vieques back. There are lots of neighborhoods in liberal strongholds that already look as though they were bombed. We can just use them.
ECS
ECS-
I would love to see liberal neighborhoods bombed, but the problem is that we need a place to practice aerial bombardment simulataneous with amphibious assualt operations.
Of course, San Francisco would be my FIRST choice, and Chicago a close SECOND!
GSP
“This is Sparta!”
Thats old school thinking - rules are meant to be broken.
Speaking from the surface fleet… whatever happened to nuclear depth charges?
Environmentally unfriendly
And for you bullet sponges, they rank right up there with the nuclear handgrenades. Its all good, just remember to look towards the light.
Remember there are only two types of ships in the Navy
Submarines and Targets
Ive got pic that I took standing on the bridge about 20 feet from an SM-2 launch. Its beautiful since I got it coming off the rail and its tail is almost aiming towards me!
(I’ll probably have lung cancer one day from the fuel exhaust that covered me milliseconds later)
Wow… Heard about this today..
Our Military should never be handicapped in any of its Training or Active duty missions.
They should be given all the funding and leeway they need to get the job done… The only thing between us and evil is The US Military. And thankfully we have them.
That also tells me that we might have been internally compromised and that the ChiComs want to see us conduct a fire drill (lol) to see how deep of an emergency they could create and then assess as to our reaction.
Unfortunately, a lot of Americans don’t realize that. In fact, most of the relativist Left don’t believe ‘evil’ exists… unless of course the topic is Karl Rove or Booooooosh!
Watch out for Claire the hero.
Ahhh wtg Navy…ooohrah.
I think I will take my SUV for a spin to celebrate. Maybe I will get a fly or something.
On November 12th, 2008 at 5:36 pm,
You forgot Cheney.
Let’s celebrate it while we have it. 5 to 4? If Obama gets his hands on SCOTUS then it will be 5 to 4 in favor of the environitwits in the future. Someone brought up the capabilities of Chinese subs, didn’t Clinton give them sub and nuclear missile technology? That’s another sorry fact of life we probably have to look forward to under the O regime.
Actually, Capn Ramius, as you know. ASW aircraft do drop active sonar torpoedos so your first statement was fine.
Also, I think I remember hearing about an issue with a new high-powered low frequency active sonar system used for searching. In fact, it may have actually been land based. Anyone familiar with this system?
They may have had a problem with EER, but I don’t remember reading that (which I would definitely remember).
In my experience 75% of navy personnel and rule makers are very sensitive to real environmental issues. As a result, the rules are usually very strict.
My wife and I (USAF and ANG) have been married a little over three years, but everytime she sees those fellows in cracker jacks she says “SQUIDS.”
What about that nuclear cannon the army played with in the 1950’s? That woulda took out a tank or two and it kept the Soviets busy watching where it went.
Since one submarine is capable of carrying more firepower than all the ordnance dropped from both sides in WWII, I think finding them is slightly more important than a unmeasurable adjustment in the squid population!
Thank God this one didn’t make it into the era of the Obama court!
Submariner’s term for surface ship = Target.
Surface Navy term for submarine = Sewer pipe.
Anti submarine warfare is slightly less interesting in peacetime than watching paint dry. If it were for real the sustained tension level would be incredible.
Submariner name for themselves
1) Steely eyed killers of the deep
2) bubbleheads
3) Janitor in a drum
Are the whale savers concerned about the whales off the coast off of Russia or China???. This amazes me that the left is so concerned with this. They are also so concerned about off shore drilling and the Alaska fields. Why are they not worried about the off shore drilling in Venezuela or the drilling in the Middle East??? After all the Middle East and Venezuela are part of the eco-system too isn’t it?
Now Wordpress is eating my 200 word comment.
Trying to see if a sailor can be smarter than Wordpress by chopping it in two.
The problems with tactical nukes outweighed their benefits. The benefits are simple. They convince the enemy that if push comes to shove we can go bat-shit crazy (a technical term) and by providing a seamless nuclear escalation ladder they increase the credibility and therefore the effectiveness of strategic systems. For war avoidance, that is Deterrence the tactical nukes make sense.
So much for part I. Part II to follow.
“We know very little about the effects on fish, on squid, on other types of marine organisms.”
Those jokers got all the way to the Supreme Court with NO EVIDENCE?!!!
I have no idea what you’re talking about. However, if I did know what you’re talking about, then I would say that most of them disappeared from service in 1992 - if I knew what you were talking about, but I don’t so I won’t say that.
Well, I can neither confirm nor deny that that you did or didnt may have known that I might be refering to something that could have disappeared or even existed at one time or the other.
Did I mention that there is a note on this computer screen that says I went to the doctors office last week and I am waiting for results from an Alzhiemers test? Anyone know anything about that? And why do all these people keep typing on this keyboard here at the public library?
I’ll always believe that the sane need to quickly evacuate the left coast and then let the enemy take it over. Birds of a feather…and all, you know.
Whaz up wit the name calling and all yo?
First squids…. and then cracker! I got yos cracker jacks…
(
)
The problems with tactical nukes outweighed their benefits. The benefits are simple. They convince the enemy that if push comes to shove we can go bat-s**t crazy (a technical term) and by providing a seamless nuclear escalation ladder they increase the credibility and therefore the effectiveness of strategic systems. For war avoidance, that is Deterrence the tactical nukes make sense. The problems are that their effects beyond those of the initial thermal blast actually impede your ability to fight. For example a nuclear depth charge or anti-submarine rocket is almost guaranteed to destroy something. It is also guaranteed to make it impossible for you to hear anything else in the water for an unknown period of time. An airburst shuts down your radar and all communications systems. It is like a soldier shining a bright light in his own eyes when he tosses a grenade in a room. Not something you want to get in the habit of doing during combat. Then there was the small matter that some of the tactical nukes, the Davey Crockette comes to mind, may have had a blast radius not much farther than the weapon’s range. In the literature that is referred to as a Bad Thing.
Well, it certainly narrows down what to think about during that last minute or so: “Hmmm, did I turn off the water or not…”
Which brings to mind about the OJT (at sea) for what to do when you run out of sensors during a CBR (Chemical/Biological/Radiological) attack. Rank has its privileges, “Next Seaman Recruit UP!!!”
‘Pirates open fire on warship… die’
About frickin time the Brits grew some danglies
Had a Battalion Adjutant at OCS, a nice fellow who in a previous life as an Army Special Forces Sergeant had been assigned to parachute into Poland when the balloon went up and place his portable Gotterdamerung under a bridge. I asked him what he planned to do when he activated it and how far he thought he could run. He replied that he intended to bring a magazine and lean on the bridge until the world ended. Wasn’t going to be anything to go home to anyway.
My Damage Control instructor was a Hull Tech Senior Chief who pointed out that “In the Event of nuklayar war” after the ship stopped rocking and shaking you could start out by sending the Fireman Recruit out to clean up and then work up through the ranks to sending out Petty Officers but when it got down to just the Senior Chief and the Ensign left in Damage Control Central the Ensign was going to be in a world of hurt.
Grounds for impeachment, in a saner world.
#77
!
If it came down to these two indivduals, then I suspect the SCPO would pull out a bottle of Jim Bean from “Docs” BDS med locker, offer a shot to the Ensign and then send him on his final mission.
GSP
“This is Sparta!”
It’s nice to know these people have their priorities in order.
30 - so when you leaving the Garden State?
GSP - You don’t seem to understand. It’s not proper for a Chief of any rank to offer a drink to a mere Ensign. Besides, I seriously doubt if he’d have to raid Doc’s locker, anyhow. After all, what’s the bottom drawer of a desk for, if not for emergency supplies?
Chief-
Point well taken, yet the med locker is where we kept our approbiate supply of the Daniels brothers-Charlie and Jack.
GSP
Not to give away any national secrets but on one of my deployments, my chief had us ‘brew’ our own beer. (He passed his 20 on that cruise and just didnt care lol) I dont remember Ensign Pulver being invited.
You have absolutely no idea what goes on in the “Goat Locker”
You rankist…
Well you dont know what goes on in berthing….ummm…well you dont know….uhh never mind… aye chief
::sniff sniff:: I smell whale…. anyone else smell that??
Smells more like Greenpeace to me
So Souter & Ginsberg sided with the Whales and the Chinese government? How old are they? Would they please retire within the next, say 30 days?!?!
Note to Navy:
Marine mammals are among those animals of highest of intelligence and are well known for their ability to learn. If high powered sonar can hurt to them at close range, would it be plausible, (when practical during testing), to precede the high power acoustic emission by several seconds with some standardized low powered signal or code that they would learn to recognize as a warning to them? Ideally, this code or signal could be adopted as an international standard used by all countries to warn marine mammals of impending high acoustic energy of any kind and give them some time to move away.
Additionally, many marine mammals live within socialized groups and communicate with each other. I believe that once a few of a given species learn the warning signal, (especially if it is something that they will be able duplicate themselves), they may even ‘pass the word around’ to others.
If such an idea doesn’t jeopardize Navy security or hamper operational readiness, etc. - I see no harm in trying it.
Danceswithdachshunds, the Navy already aborts the use of sonar if whales are detected nearby. The problem is that the low frequency system being debated has a very long range. Even if the warning was given several hours prior to the test, it wouldn’t be enough time to clear the range of the system.
The sound intensity drops off by factor of the distance cubed. If the intensity is some value ‘X’ at 100 feet; it drops to 1/8 that at 200 feet, 1/27 at 300′, etc.
I didn’t say they should not hear it at all - just get far enough away to avoid an intensity that can cause pain/damage. In one minute most dolphins and even some whales can be a 1/2 mile away. If the emitted sound is 1 GW (!) then the sound energy at 1/2 mile is as low as .08 watts/in^2, (ignoring a reflection from the bottom and surface, etc.)
That looks small to me but then again I have no idea what level is on the threshold of damaging/painful to these animals…
Correction to my 1st paragraph - that was incorrect. It’s distance squared for intensity, (cubed for energy density). Therefore 1/4, 1/9, etc.