Anti-Prop. 8 protest watch
The opponents of Proposition 8, the traditional marriage initiative that passed 52-48 in California, are holding a nationwide protest today. Will they control themselves? Or will we see more blacklisting, harassment, and intimidation?
Prop. 8 supporters want to know — as I’ve wondered – where the soul-fixers and healers are:
Palmdale resident James Jackson, a member of the Church of Latter-day Saints who gave $1,000 to the Proposition 8 campaign, said he felt that the good works of his church had been forgotten in the midst of attention on the protests about the vote.
“I’m not a bigot,” said Jackson, 48. “I want to be a good person. But there are certain things I just don’t believe are right.”
Proposition 8 backers also criticized elected officials, including Schwarzenegger, for not condemning what they said were acts of vandalism and boycotts against supporters.
“Where is Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger?” Schubert asked. “Where is Sen. Dianne Feinstein? Where are the people who represent us, no matter their position on Proposition 8, to stand up for the rights of the millions of Californians who have done the one thing we ask and teach our children, which is to participate in the democratic process?”
See what others have said
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Trackbacks
- Left Of Center
- ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected
- National Protest Today - I Am Going To Draw — ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected
- This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here » Blog Archive » These are the guys Obama wants advice from
- Dave Lucas' Notes » Around The Blogosphere 15 November 08
- Kerfuffles :: Obama’s Defense of Marriage :: November :: 2008
- What it Means to Protest — The Opposite of Jim Bunning
- The Bullies Among Us « Jane Q. Republican
- Go Home, People! « The Pugnacious Irishman
- For the Glory of God « Riggword Weblog
- Photos from San Diego Prop 8 March | Political Vindication
- Prop. 8 Opponents Protest Gay-Marriage Ban In Calif. | BigMouthFrog
- ProGayBlacklist.com? | Right Voices
- The GOP lost at the ballot box on Election Day, but we aren’t protesting the will of the American people « Right Minded Online
- California “burning” Explained « Mark Epstein
- Washington City Paper: The Sexist - Prop 8 Protest Roundup
- Large turnout at prop-8 rallies across the country » A Couple Things » A couple things about politics, sports, travel, and other stuff.
- David’s Blog of Common Sense » Prop. 8 Protests Getting Out of Hand!
- Anti-Prop. 8 protest watch « Top Daily Digest Reading
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Rosie O’Donnell is taking heat for defending the Osmonds’ comments on Prop. 8/gay rights.
Do you have a link on that, Mooks, or see it on TV or ?
I hear about it on the news earlier todat and then read her blog where people have been giving her a hard time about it.
Ask Ro.
She’s good friends with both Donny and Marie so I’m not surprised she’s defending them. Good for her.
Ah, I see, thanks for the link!
Purplepeep – My 20 years of experience of Protestand/Evangelicals is that cults are anyone who doesn’t agree with them. But definitely Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witnesses are usually their top 3 cult religions.
The irony is that either the Catholics have the line of succession and are the real Church, or the line was broken and was restored as LDS claim and we have the real Church. Protestants are either apostate groups from the real Church, or apostate groups from an apostate Church. And when I say apostate, I simply mean there is no authority to perform ordinances. Not that the believers aren’t Christian or heavenbound. It’s a matter of which Church, if any, currently has the authority to act and speak on behalf of God.
So it’s either the Catholics or the Latter-day Saints or None as far as an organized Church goes.
If the line of succession was broken, then the Church needs to be completely restored, it cannot be simply reformed because the Apostolic keys would be gone from the earth and only Christ Himself can bestow them.
But it is so confusing with all the winds of doctrine, I can see where people would be mighty confused as to where to turn. And I know our Heavenly Father is merciful and just and wouldn’t simply consign people to hellfire for eternity for not being able to figure it out listening to the cacaphony of voices all saying they are it.
What we all have in common is a firm belief that Jesus is the Christ and died in our place for our sins. He is the great Redeemer and the only name under heaven by which one must be saved.
And I surely do wish we could all just show love and respect to each other as sisters and brothers in Christ. I really don’t get the hateful attitude of some. Or why they feel such a desperate need to tear other people apart because of doctrinal differences.
I’ve never known anyone to convert by using a message of hate or bullying. Or by calling a group names.
Anyway, have a great night. There are many who are respectful of each other’s faith and who follow Christ’s admonition to love their neighbor as themelves. We can rejoice in that and celebrate Him who we all have in common.
Purplepeep – Just a PS – Our Prophets have always maintained that anyone who believes in Christ and His Atonement is a Christian. I’ve heard Gordon B. Hinkley and Thomas S. Monson, who are the recent and current Prophet say out of their own mouths that Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ. As are Protestants.
The main issue is simply who has the authority to ACT and speak on behalf of God. You believe it’s the Pope and we believe it’s our Prophet.
Just wanted you to know that.
Joy,
I want to ask your forgiveness. I was really hard on you and, as I told my wife, I feel bad about it. I will try to be more civil in the future.
Regards….
One more thing, I do consider you an ally in the fight to retake our nation from the Libs. I hope that you can trust me in this, as well.
purplepeep said:
A proof text?. Can’t refute it, so dismiss it. Doesn’t fit your theology, so disregard it as a proof text.
purplepeep said:
What does it matter? I’m not Jesus.
Joy, I have not been hateful and have directly addressed some of your points – specifically about Paul, the third heaven, and different resurrection bodies. Your argument that it is Catholicism, LDS, or bust fails, but first, please answer me about Paul.
Jet – Thank you. No worries. All is forgiven.
I feel bad about my sarcasm in that one post. We all lose our cool now and then. Part of the mortal experience.
I really do understand what is behind it. You are concerned for my eternal soul. And that’s a good thing.
Again thanks.
LOL, yeah, Joy – I figured my asking if Catholics are Christians would tend to quiet ‘em down. Afterall, I expect people would be ashamed (and rightly so) to say our good hostess here, Michelle, is a cultist!
As you said, or infered, some folks get it in their heads that everyone is wrong – except themselves. You just have to ask a few questions – e.g. speaking in tongues, type of baptism, predestination/free will, pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib, “rapture”, no “Rapture”, etc ad infinitum.
They’ll really have at one another with “Dueling Doctrines”. Egos expand and Jesus, doctrines, etc. often tend to become “testosterone subtitutes” – it all goes into the emotional mix as people try to justify themselves.
Yup, I think there are thoughtful exchanges to be had where people listen and learn from another, but you’re correct. The Bible constantly advises to avoid arguing.
As I said, I could make a case “against Mormonism”, but it wouldn’t come from a need to beat down another faith in order to feel good about mine. In fact, it would be almost entirely devoid of extrapolations from my own beliefs. (No “Dueling Doctrines”, even though I do like banjo music!)
But I have other things to do with my time, so I’ll leave that type of a intellectual, clinical, dispassionate examination to others. And there’s a right time and place for such matters; I don’t suppose religious debate is the reason most folks read Michelle’s writings!
But anywhooo, if folks insisted on going after you for your beliefs,I’d just ask them “What about…?” and rattle of a few items I cited above. That’ll either shut ‘em up or keep ‘em busy for days!
Better still, as you said, they could respect the individual instead of viewing him/her as a belief system they need to personally vanquish. Seeing people as dragons in need of slaying just doesn’t accomplish very much.
But I digress, lol – at any rate, you have a great evening too and sleep well!
Trollman – It’s probably a post I didn’t read. I’m very tired of the contention. I appreciate your concern for my eternal soul.
We disagree and can type for days back and forth quoting Scripture.
One thing I can say, is that I have a testimony that cannot be swayed. I’ve studied all this for 25 years now. And I mean studied. In the end, it is the testimony I received from the Holy Ghost that converted me to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I guarantee you, there isn’t an argument I haven’t already heard and studied.
Since applying the teaching of the LDS Church the Bible has come alive for me like never before, and since my intitial conversion I have loved my Savior more than words can tell. I love Him even more now. The Book of Mormon helps me love the Bible more than ever. Love my Savior more than ever. Love my Father in Heaven more than ever. And actually live the commandments better.
I will not go back. I appreciate your concern, but I will not deny Christ or His Church. They are inseperable for me. And I’ve found that it must be taken as a whole. And people learn line upon line, precept upon precept. This venue is impossible for me because the answers involve way too much.
You think your’re right, I know I am.
*humor*
Please let’s just give it a rest. My arms and hands are killing me from typing these last couple of days coupled with working on my photographs. And certain other people are just going to keep baiting and interjecting their vicious selves into the conversation.
No more. Have a glorious night. Take care.
Purplepeep,
LOL Those are the EXACT questions I asked them somewhere on here
You are correct, TMan – as with Mormons, your stance on Catholics would be unimportant. You’re finally getting the point, which is a good thing.
Have a good night.
Post # 376 is the one with those questions. Too funny….
Have a great night Purplepeep.
Yup, ya beat me to it. Could have a great inter-denominational food fight, eh? Baptists throwing mashed taters, Catholics splashing milk, Pentacostals flinging greenpeas – all sortsa fun!
G’night again.
There have been some misrepresentations of Mormon beliefs on this thread. I want to address one of them. Mormons do not believe that we can “earn” salvation through our works, as some have said here. Salvation is not earned; it is a gift given by the grace of God:
If faith comes first, then works will follow. I think the confusion surrounding Mormon beliefs about faith and works comes from our belief that works are an indication of faith, and that God will judge our faith by our works. This is consistent with the Biblical writings of Peter, James, and John:
I try to understand the writings of Paul by putting his words in context with the rest of the Bible. It’s hard to reconcile Paul and James because they seem to contradict each other on the subject of faith vs. works. It sometimes helps me to understand spiritual concepts when I can compare them to something physical and concrete. For example, faith and works can be compared to a battery.
If “faith” is the voltage and “works” is the current, then you can see how they depend on each other. Paul is right if you consider that a battery must have voltage (faith) before it can produce any current (works). James is right if you consider that the current (works) that a battery produces is how you judge the voltage (faith). So, it is possible for both of them to be right on this issue. They’re views just come from a different perspective.
Our faith can be judged by our works in a similar fashion to the way the voltage of a battery can be judged by the current it produces in a circuit of known resistance (Ohm’s Law: V = IR). As a battery that does not produce current is dead, faith that does not produce works is dead also. Since only God knows the resistance of the adversary in our lives, only God can truely judge our faith by our works.
We do not “earn” salvation, but it is a gift from God conditioned on our faith. Our faith, in turn, can be judged by our works as described by Peter, James, and John (above). We should not pick and choose just the verses of the Bible we like, or twist them to fit our preconceived ideas. But when someone can explain a verse in a way that does not conflict with other Bible verses on the subject, then I’m happy to listen.
Gosh, I can only imagine how proud Jesus must be of you right now.
Papa Louie,
In all humility, I ask you to address this:
“The Articles of Faith” by James Edward Talmage, a member of your Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in the early 1900s. In Lecture IV, Section 29.I.,
Please explain what this means.
Ok, but I don’t have the time to get into much detail. I’ll give my response using a few related Bible verses:
This verse, along with Christ’s request to “keep my commandments” means we should strive “to obey all the Divine commandments.” We can’t “earn” salvation by doing this, but those who are saved will be rewarded for their faithfulness just as in the parable of the talents.
I’ll now skip to the last part of the quote, which is probably what prompted your question:
Admittedly, neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon has much to say about this. But the Bible does mention “the glory of the celestial” in one place:
There’s not enough here to know exactly what Paul means by all this but D&C Section 76 describes what was revealed to Joseph Smith on this subject. I don’t have the time or space to go into that here.
Now for the “…which makes them Gods” part of the quote:
Mormons take a literal interpretation of these verses. Other Christians have a different take on them. but if you read them in context with what Jesus is being accused of, the Mormon view does make sense. Jesus is accused of blasphemy for making himself God. He responds by quoting Psalms 82 and says that those, “unto whom the word of God came,” are called gods. So why would it be blasphemy for him to say “I am the Son of God”?
Now put this together with another verse from Paul and it makes a little more sense:
Think logically about this verse. God doesn’t call us pets or creatures, he calls us “children.” And as his children we are “heirs of God.” Not just partial heirs or subordinate heirs, but “joint-heirs with Christ”, if we are deemed worthy. Is there anything greater he could give us?
If the offspring of a horse is a horse, and the offspring of a cow is a cow, what do you call the offspring of God? When a man has a son, doesn’t he hope for his son to grow up to be a man like him someday and have all the opportunities that he has had? Couldn’t God want the same for His children? (See also Gal. 4:1-7.)
Does this mean that Mormons have multiple Gods? No, because we only worship one God. We worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost. We put no other Gods before Him.
I give these thoughts not as “proofs”, but only as a partial explanation for your question. I went longer than planned, so I’ll have to leave it here.
Two can play at this boycott game. Since the Gay Community wishes to partake in thuggery and not respect other peoples vies and opinions, actively denying their First Ammendment rights, carrying out terrorist tactics in order to threaten and intimidate people and businesses to beding to their will, then we should all be able to boycott any and all Gay owned businesses.
I, for one, will be doing just that until their nazi-esque terrorist tactics ceases and they stop acting like spoiled children. I am going to post a site that you can use to locate any Gay Owned Business in the State of California. I am NOT including “Gay Friendly” businesses as there are a number of them that supported Prop. 8 and are on the Gay Terrorist Hit List.
Here is the site: GayBusiness.com: The Number 1 Online Gay Business Directory I am not advocating using ANY OTHER METHOD against them. Economic boycott is perfectly acceptable, and if they want to play at this game, then so can we. After all…they want fairness, and this is only fair.
Thanks for the explanation. I’ll consider what you wrote.
joy, you sound like a typical liberal wacko…anyone who dares question you is hate-filled bet you think I’m racistsexistbigotedhomophic too!!
truth is you can’t answer what I posted…typical cultist.
purplepeep said:
Quiet’em down, like how when I pointed out your hypocrisy, you changed the subject? Like when I pointed out how Joy was misinterpreting the words of the Apostle Paul, all of a sudden, she no longer wants to talk about what the Scriptures say?
I don’t know what Michelle Malkin is. Michelle Malkin has used the Lord’s Name in vain previously just for a snappy title, and I openly rebuked her for that. It is called standing on principle.
Joy said:
I understand your jest, but unfortunately it is sad more than it is funny.
You are right, I think I’m right. My position is based upon reason, logic, and arguments. I am open to being corrected, but only by a superior argument.
You, however, do not think you are right, you know you’re right – or to be more exact, you’re absolutely convinced you are right because of a subjective feeling, a “burning in your bosom.”
My question to you is, if in the end it isn’t about study and what the Bible says, that it all boils down upon a subjective feeling, then why do you even bother about making a pretense about all these years of study? After all, none of that matters because you feel it is true.
absolutely, it would be amusing if it wasn’t so sad.
you’re not my ’sister’ in Christ. you serve the jesus of joseph smith and the mormons…not the Jesus of the Bible.
get a clue, no christian church, catholic or protestant, thinks the mormons are part of the faith. and it will never happen, unless mormonism rejects polytheism, and embraces trinitarianism.
Papa Louie said:
Paul is perfectly clear what he is referring to. The problem for the Mormon is that it doesn’t say what they say. Joy claimed it did, but I pointed out what this passage actually says in post #380.
But apparently you at least recognize that this doctrine isn’t Biblical.
are you sure about that?
Sorry for the late reply. Sunday was very busy for my family.
They don’t. Neither does the behemoth. The behemoth and leviathan in Job are dinosaurs. Also, back to the horse: can you show me the Book of Mormon in its original language? I’d like to see it in order to get the proper context. If God inspired Joseph in his translation, then why would Joseph apply the term for “horse” to any number of animals here in North America, when he himself knew what they were (i.e. why call a “deer” a “horse” if Joseph Smith knew what a deer was?)
Here is why I believe the Bible is true: the Bible is a compilation of 66 books that corroborate one another, written by over 40 authors, in three different languages, over a distance of three continents, over a period of 1500 years, yet we cannot find a contradiction of theme anywhere. The Bible writers, though many never knew one another, corroborated one another. Consider Luke 1:1-4, “Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.” Also, modern translations of the Bible are taken directly from the original manuscripts, not from other translations of translations. These original manuscripts were written by those who lived during the time of Christ and could be corroborated or rejected by others who lived during the time of Christ. There are over 6,000 manuscripts or partial manuscripts of the New Testament put down on paper as early as 120 AD. The NT was completed around 95 AD. By comparison, the fewer than 10 copies we have of Julius Caesar’s Galic Wars were written over 900 years after the original. The five copies of Aristotle’s Poetics were written 1400-1500 years after the original. The less that five copies of Homer’s Iliad were written more than 2100 years after the was written. These are the best history offers, which is pitiful compared to the Bible.
Revelation 21:8 says, “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
You’ll have to clarify this a bit. Are you referring to 1 Cor. 15? If so, others have addressed this issue.
I’d like to see the references for this. If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that when we get to heaven we will become divine, as God is divine? We’re told that we’ll receive a new body in Heaven, but nowhere does it say we’ll receive anything else (1 Cor. 15:42-44). We will reflect the Lord’s glory, but we will not be gods in and of ourselves. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 says, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” I’m not sure how we could call ourselves “gods” when we would still lack God’s omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.
This comment thread has gone way off course.
I’m sure the anti-Prop 8 protesters would like nothing more than for us to debate biblical interpretations and who is right about God.
right4life,
Thanks for the reference. Regards
This is not saying that we can “earn” salvation by our works. It says that God expects us to do our best (”all we can do”) before the gift of salvation is given to us. It sounds reasonable to me.
I don’t think we disagree that there are conditions on obtaining the gift of salvation. (If there were no conditions, then it wouldn’t matter what we did or what church we belonged to.) Our disagreement then, appears to be on what those conditions are.
Surely you agree that belief is required for salvation. You, apparently, do not agree that any “works” are required, even though I quoted several Bible verses from Peter, James, and John saying that we will be judged by our works.
If good works flow from faith/belief, then it seems perfectly reasonable for God to judge our faith by the works we perform in this life. It is our faith that is important, but our works are an indicator of our faith. You cannot separate the two because “faith without works is dead.” Does Paul trump James?
If you argue that “belief” is not a form of “work”, as a poster stated earlier in this thread, then please explain these words of Jesus in John 6:
It sure sounds to me like Jesus considered belief to be a “work of God.” Just because belief is an act of the mind rather than an act of the physical body doesn’t mean it’s not work or doesn’t require effort.
Now, if you are going to say that some types of work are required but other types are not, then you have to also consider Joy’s explanation of what Paul meant by works. She argued that Paul was referring to the dead works of the Law of Moses, which law was fulfilled in Christ. Paul was not talking about the works Jesus commanded us anew to do as part of his New Testament, e.g. love thy neighbor, love God, preach the gospel, keep his commandments, etc.
I am still convinced that the Mormon interpretation of the writings of Paul are consistant with historical context and with other writers in the New Testament like James. I cannot reconcile your interpretation of Paul with any of them, including the words of Jesus, such as these:
To abide in Christ’s love clearly requires us to be obedient to his commandments. (Can one be saved by grace without abiding in Christ’s love?)
He knows we are not perfect. That’s why he has given us the gift of repentance. But a Christian who would interpret Paul in a way that is not consistent with the words of Christ is either deceived or looking for an excuse to sin. To repent and “go and sin no more” takes effort. If one can justify in his mind that “works” are not required, then repentance is not required, either.
Christ is the center of our religion. The title page of the Book of Mormon states its purpose as “the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD…”. So, obviously, we believe we are Christians. If you want to say that we are not “orthodox” or “historical” Christians, I probably would not argue with that.
The only important thing is that Christ considers us to be Christians. What the world thinks doesn’t matter any more than what the Jews and Romans thought of the early Christian church when they persecuted them and treated them as a hated cult.
Unlike the Greeks and Romans, Mormons have only one God that they worship, which is God the Father. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost form the Godhead and are united as one, but they are distinct and separate individuals.
I searched an online Bible for the word “Trinity” and did not find it. I also could not find any instance in scripture where belief in the Trinity was a specific requirement for membership in the early Church of Christ. Yet some would now make it a requirement to be “part of the faith.”
“The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180.” This occurred after the books of the Bible were written. Mormons often get flack for having extra-biblical scripture and doctrines. It would seem that trinitarianism is, itself, an example of an extra-biblical doctrine.
The definition of Trinity has undergone various revisions over the centuries by men who did not claim to be prophets receiving the revealed word of God. If it is “the central doctrine of the Christian religion”, why not at least name this doctrine with a word found in Holy Scripture, like “Godhead”?
I believe, just as Stephen of old testified, that Jesus is standing on the right hand of God. I also believe that when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was not praying to himself. When he prayed for his disciples in John 17 and asked the Father “that they may be one, even as we are one”, he was not asking for his followers to become part of the Trinity. He was asking for them to be unified in purpose by doing the will of God. If that is how Jesus defines his relationship with the Father, who am I to define it any other way?
Trinitarianism seems to me to be a definition of God that was “graven by art and man’s device.” While part of it does clearly comes from scripture, there are other parts that seem influenced by the precepts and philosophies of men and go beyond that which has been revealed by scripture.
well yes, of course it sounds reasonable…most religions are works-based. but its not what the Bible says..look at the thief on the cross, he did nothing…and Abraham, the bible says he believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, not anything he did, other than believe.
salvation is a gift:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
and if faith was a work, or any other thing that could be called a work, then you are given what is due you…(salvation) and then it is not a gift…
Romans 4:4
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
really? how about this:
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
what works did she do to be saved? what about the thief on the cross? what did he do? What did Abraham do to be saved?
God knows our heart already. even if you do good deeds, from an impure motive, glory for yourself, etc. then the work is useless. its not just the work, its whats in our heart.
there is no conflict between the 2. works flow from our faith. but works are not required for salvation.
and of course Christianity has been wrong for 2,000 years, but all of sudden YOU are the only ones who know the ‘truth’ please
in other words you are polytheistic. Christianity is monotheistic.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
and then of course Isaiah 43:10
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
I don’t see how you can reconcile the bible with your definition of God..and if you have Jesus wrong..and you do, then you have the rest of it wrong too.
its the foundation of the faith. its why anyone who is not trinitarian is not christian…its why the worldwide church of God is now orthodox, they embraced the Trinity. The trinity is a simple concept…The Father is God…the Son is God…The Holy Spirit is God…and they are ONE GOD.
The bible is clear about this. your rejection of this is clear…its why you’re not christian, no matter how loudly you proclaim it…and this is a new thing for mormons, before you didn’t want to be associated with christians…
why would you want to be associated with the apostate??
words like omniscience are not in the bible either…neither is the word ‘bible’ or Incarnation or monotheism…do you disbelieve these words and what they mean because they are not in the bible??
lets talk about the nature of God…do you believe about God the Father:
and about Jesus do you believe:
so is Jesus eternal or not?
so you can call yourself christian, but you are clearly not. thats why none of the other christian churches will ever accept mormons as christians, much as you may desire it. until you embrace the Trinity, and give up this notion that you can become gods with your own celestial wives and offspring….remember Jesus said in heaven we are neither married nor given in marriage.
Look, obviously Mormonism = polytheism =/= Christianity
Furthermore, Mormons brainwash their people into believing the subjective “burning in the bosom” trumps all reason, evidence, and Scripture, so there is not much point in continuing to argue with them.
As far as what did the thief of the cross do? He:
1. repented (went from mocking Jesus to defending Him – Matt. 27:44 & Luke 23:40).
2. confessed his own guilt (Luke 23:41).
3. confessed Jesus’ righteousness (Luke 23:41).
4. believed that Jesus was the King of the Jews, the Messiah, ruler over God’s Kingdom (Luke 23:42).
5. put his trust in Jesus to save him from his sins (Luke 23:42).
Believing, deciding to put your faith in Jesus is a work, no way around it. Jesus Himself says so (John 6:26-29).
How is faith a work? Faith is making a choice, it is something you do. Just like refusing to trust in Jesus is something you do. Which is why you can be punished or rewarded for your faith, or lack thereof.
If faith isn’t something you do, but something God does for you apart from your will, then why doesn’t God give everyone faith, since He desires all men to be saved? (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
Why does Jesus get frustrated and angry at people’s lack of faith, if the only reason why they didn’t have faith was because He hadn’t given it to them? (Matt. 23:37-38)
Romans 4:
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
if faith is a work, then we earn our salvation. because wages are due to one who works. salvation is a gift, so how can any work be associated with it? if faith was a work, then God would be obligated to save us based upon our work (faith) something we did…
What you said.
To that I would add that when Jesus told the crowd that His Father’s work was to believe in Him who He has sent, he was not stating a “work” as a requirement of salvation. The crowd wanted to be told a list of do-s and don’t-s, but Jesus was talking about the mind and heart …inward belief leads to outward behavior. That’s why Jesus called the religious leaders “white-washed sepulchres” because they worked on the outside but were dead inside. In the John 6:28-29 passage that Papa L uses to justify works as a salvation prerequisite, Jesus was talking about the Bread of Heaven …that we should strive for that true bread and not earthly bread that spoils. If Papa L stays in context to his viewpoint, then Jesus was telling the crowd to eat REAL bread from Heaven …a clear absurdity. Just like the bread of Heaven was figurative, so is the “work” of Heaven: to believe in Jesus, whom the Father sent. It is just as absurd to believe in performing real work as it is to presume God was going to rain down the bread of Heaven for us to eat. God did that before with manna, but even after eating that bread the Israelites were hungry again. So clearly, even manna is not what Christ was talking about.
right4life said:
By your refusing to directly answer my points and Scripture references, you have unwittingly admitted you cannot, and thus you retreat to another passage.
The problem for you is, Romans 4:4-5 doesn’t do anything to refute Jesus’ point that believing is a work, it is something you do.
If you look at the context of Romans 4, it becomes clear that when Paul refers to works, he is referring to works of the Law of Moses – such as circumcision.
In Rom. 2:25-29, Paul makes the point that it isn’t the Law of Moses and circumcision that makes us right with God, but a sincere faith.
In Romans 3:27-30, Paul again reiterates that we are “justified by faith apart from works.” What kind of works? Apart from “works of the Law [of Moses, circumcision].”
In fact, shortly after Rom. 4:4-5, Paul again specifies that Abraham was saved before he was circumcised, and thus was saved apart from circumcision.
Abraham wasn’t saved apart from any works of obedience – he had already obeyed God by following Him to a distant land before God pronounced him saved.
John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life…” Believing is the opposite of disobedience. That means to believe is to obey, and to disbelieve is to disobey.
right4life said:
Believing, having faith, is something you do, a work. Not a work that earns salvation (for only a perfect life can earn a ticket to Heaven), but it is the manner in which we receive what we did not earn.
If I say, “Out of the goodness of my heart, I will give anyone who comes to me and gives me a high five $1000.” By coming to me and giving me a high five, does that earn you $1000? No, it does not, it is still a gift based upon my promise and goodness, not upon you earning it. If you do not come to me, and if you do not give me a high five, then you will not receive the gift.
Faith is commanded by God. If it can be commanded, then it must be something you can do. If you can do it, if you can choose to believe, then it is something you do, a work. Just like Jesus said it was.
I did answer directly. and I based that answer on scripture. didn’t you read what I wrote follow the scripture??
obviously it does. its pretty plain and simple. you want to talk about context? how about the context when Jesus was talking about ‘works’??
and you cannot explain the oncongruence between the gift of salvation, and having to perform a work (faith) which by definition, you are owed a payment of some sort for.
again, a work requires payment…salvation is a gift. you are saying God owes you salvation for having faith. which isn’t the case.
salvation is by grace..which is unmerited favor…if faith is a work, then you don’t need grace, you’ve earned salvation by your faith.
clearly this is not the case.
oncongruence = incongruence
you state a job basically…give me a high five…and then you state the payment for that job…$1,000
its not a gift. whoever gives you a high five EARNS the money, and it is due them.
you are saying the Lord owes you salvation because of your faith. I believe salvation is a gift that comes through faith…but it is NOT owed to you because of your faith…see the difference??
how can you receive a faith, if it is something you have to have and do???
Jesus declares “no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65)
why is that if faith is a work that you do???
Romans 9:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
2 timothy 2
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Philippians 1
29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, 30since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.
and finally (I think
) you run into a practical problem of how much faith do you need to be saved, since faith is required from you. and it is something that you MUST do… a work.
Joni Eareckson Tada has been paralyzed for a long time…so does she not have the faith for a miracle? since faith is a work, then is it her fault she’s still paralyzed, since she doesn’t have enough faith for a miracle, does she??
so do you have enough faith for your salvation? does she? does anyone really know?
I’ll rely on His mercy, and His grace, and His gift…rather than my own faith…which is usually sorely lacking…
right4life,
Well, if that barrage doesn’t make Papa Louie “shake the dust off of his feet”, nothing will
On November 18th, 2008 at 3:59 pm, right4life said:
Joni Eareckson Tada has been paralyzed for a long time…so does she not have the faith for a miracle? since faith is a work, then is it her fault she’s still paralyzed, since she doesn’t have enough faith for a miracle, does she?—————————————
Ms. Tada is a great woman. Here’s an interesting thought for you (and anyone else who cares to read on); maybe she isn’t ASKING to be healed of her paralysis. Maybe her faith has led her to contentment with herself and her life the way they are.
That, in its own way, is a miracle of healing.
right4life said:
Here is what I didn’t read: your response to my points about the “work” mentioned in Romans 4:4-5. You chose the quote. Then I pointed out the context of the passage you quoted, showing that it does not refer to “any work,” but to a particular kind of work – works of the Law of Moses, circumcision in particular.
I’ll be more than happy to discuss the other passages with you, but for practical reasons, let’s first finish discussing the passages already mentioned. Unless you are afraid that, upon examining the context of Romans 4, it doesn’t say what you claim it says…
Now in regard to your lengthy quote, referring to the passage I brought up, John 6. Let’s look at the part you bolded:
I agree completely with this part.
1. Faith is something God requires.
2. Man must “do faith” to obtain eternal life.
3. By “doing faith,” man does not merit anything with God.
So we both agree on these 3 points. Our disagreement then stems from this:
right4life said:
That is simply not true. We’ve already agreed that faith earns you nothing. Look up the words translated as “work” – ergon and ergadzomai in a NT Greek Lexicon. What you will find is that each word can have several meanings, and only some – not all – include the idea of working towards earning/receiving a wage.
When you look those words up, you will realize that a work does not necessarily include the idea of earning a wage. A “work” can simply be an action, any action, without respect to a wage. Such as believing.
As far as my illustration about the $1000 gift, it is still a gift, not a labor contract. If you give me a high five, and I decide not to give you the $1000 after all, what are you going to do, take me to court? Judge Judy, I earned $1000 for the work performed, I demand it. Judge Judy, after recovering from laughter, will tell you did nothing to earn $1000 – it was an offer of a gift, not a labor contract.
then I’m not sure what we’re arguing about?? God has mercy on whom He will, and He hardens whom He will…and He gives faith to whom He will…
right4life said:
I agree with all of those things. The problem is, those statements mean different things to different people. To see if we are actually in agreement or disagreement, we need to clarify what those statements mean.
Romans addresses a division in the church between the Jewish and Gentile believers. For the first 10 chapters, Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians who believe they are somehow superior to the Gentiles (both Gentile Christians and pagans) simply because they are Jews. In chapter 11, Paul then addresses the Gentile Christians who feel superior to Jews (both Jewish Christians and Jews who reject Jesus). In chapters 12 and following, he then goes into various instructions related to the church.
In chapter 9, which you allude to here, Paul is still talking to the Jewish Christians. He is addressing those that believe God has to save them, simply because they are Jews, descended from Abraham, physically circumcised, their ancestors received the Law and the promises, etc.
It was this very same attitude that John the Baptist confronted during his ministry a few decades earlier. “Do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Some of the Jews of the first century believed that God had to spare them and prosper them, in order for God to keep His promise to Abraham about his descendants. But John points out that God can keep His promise another way, by raising up sons of Abraham from places other than the Jews. Presumably, John uses rocks as an example, because he was in a desert place and there were, well, rocks all around. We know from the NT Scriptures that those other places God can raise up sons of Abraham are the Gentiles.
Tying into what Jesus said in John 6, Jesus was comparing the work they were doing (for the food which perishes, “the manna from the days of Moses”) vs. the work God wanted them to do (for the food which endures to eternal life, Jesus – the true manna/bread).
They were trusting in the Law of Moses to save them, but the Law of Moses doesn’t save anyone. By it’s very nature, the Law can only condemn the sinner, it cannot justify the sinner. But the law of faith in Christ does provide justification for the sinner.
They were placing their faith in their deeds, rather than placing their faith in God. In Romans 9:30-33, Paul concludes that God does have the right and sovereignty to reject Israel (those Jews who rejected Jesus), for God can keep His promise to Abraham since true sons of Abraham are those who have the same kind of faith as Abraham, and not those who are physically descended from him or circumcised like him (Gal. 3:26-29).
Now I said all of that to get to this: a sinner cannot be saved unless he is called by God. One’s own good deeds cannot cover up one’s own misdeeds (Gen. 3:7, 10 21). Therefore God has to provide us with that covering. We cannot have salvation from our sin without first believing in Jesus. We cannot believe in Jesus without first hearing about Jesus, which comes from His Word (Rom. 10:13-18).
But our salvation still requires us to do something: that we respond to the Gospel, to ask God for our salvation, to call upon His Name. The asking, the calling upon His Name, the trusting does not earn salvation, but it is the avenue in which we receive what we did not earn. Man plays a part in his salvation (he has to ask for it), but he plays no part in earning salvation. Salvation was completely and solely earned by the work of Christ – by His perfect life and willing sacrifice.
My apologies for the length, I was long winded in hopes of avoiding confusion.
Trollman has already made some good points about this. I’ll just add a few additional thoughts of my own. While the worker is worthy of his hire, he has to be hired first. Consider this example:
If I promise a kid $5 to wash my car, and he makes a good effort to do it, then I owe him the wage I promised. It is not a gift. But, if the kid washes my car on his own and then knocks on my door and demands that I pay him $1000 for washing my car, I have no obligation to pay him anything. This is because I did not hire him to do the work nor did I promise to pay him $1000 if he did.
If I take pity on him anyway, and hand him a few bucks for his efforts, it is a gift. It is not a wage even if the kid did a lot of work to wash my car. To be paid a wage for work, the worker must have an agreement with the employer. Without it, you are not entitled to payment no matter how much work you do.
Salvation is a gift of God; we could never do enough or pay enough to “earn” it. God has never promised us, or made an agreement with us, that we can earn salvation. So no matter how much faith we have or how many good works we perform, we cannot demand salvation as our wage. But if God chooses to give us the gift of salvation because He is pleased with the works of faith we have done in this life, it is still a gift – it is not “due” us. Obeying God and trying to do good works because we love Him and want to please Him is not an “impure motive.”
I agree that faith is a gift from God. Talents are also a gift from God. If we bury our talents, they will not increase, and God will take them from us and give them to a more faithful servant. Likewise it is with faith. If we do not exercise our faith, it will not grow and the gift may be taken from us. But it takes effort (work) to exercise our faith rather than bury it or hide it under a bushel. That’s why James says that “by works was faith made perfect” and “faith without works is dead.” You need to have both, not to earn salvation, but to increase in faith and to please God.
The thief confessed his own guilt and then defended Jesus to the others, which is something even Peter was afraid to do at trial. I would say that his actions were not “nothing” – they were considerable. Had Jesus turned to him and spoke those words without the thief doing anything, then you might have a point. In fact, I don’t recall where Jesus healed anyone (except children) without them first acting on their faith by seeking him out or confessing their belief.
As for Abraham, he did more than just believe. He also acted on his belief and thereby exercised his faith. He perfected his faith by his works as this quote from James (referenced earlier) makes clear:
It seems that you will believe the Bible only as far as it is translated the way you like it. In any case, this discussion is beginning to go in circles. I’ve enjoyed reading the different points of view, but it’s time to move on.