Anti-Prop. 8 protest watch
The opponents of Proposition 8, the traditional marriage initiative that passed 52-48 in California, are holding a nationwide protest today. Will they control themselves? Or will we see more blacklisting, harassment, and intimidation?
Prop. 8 supporters want to know — as I’ve wondered – where the soul-fixers and healers are:
Palmdale resident James Jackson, a member of the Church of Latter-day Saints who gave $1,000 to the Proposition 8 campaign, said he felt that the good works of his church had been forgotten in the midst of attention on the protests about the vote.
“I’m not a bigot,” said Jackson, 48. “I want to be a good person. But there are certain things I just don’t believe are right.”
Proposition 8 backers also criticized elected officials, including Schwarzenegger, for not condemning what they said were acts of vandalism and boycotts against supporters.
“Where is Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger?” Schubert asked. “Where is Sen. Dianne Feinstein? Where are the people who represent us, no matter their position on Proposition 8, to stand up for the rights of the millions of Californians who have done the one thing we ask and teach our children, which is to participate in the democratic process?”
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Trackbacks
- Left Of Center
- ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected
- National Protest Today - I Am Going To Draw — ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected
- This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here » Blog Archive » These are the guys Obama wants advice from
- Dave Lucas' Notes » Around The Blogosphere 15 November 08
- Kerfuffles :: Obama’s Defense of Marriage :: November :: 2008
- What it Means to Protest — The Opposite of Jim Bunning
- The Bullies Among Us « Jane Q. Republican
- Go Home, People! « The Pugnacious Irishman
- For the Glory of God « Riggword Weblog
- Photos from San Diego Prop 8 March | Political Vindication
- Prop. 8 Opponents Protest Gay-Marriage Ban In Calif. | BigMouthFrog
- ProGayBlacklist.com? | Right Voices
- The GOP lost at the ballot box on Election Day, but we aren’t protesting the will of the American people « Right Minded Online
- California “burning” Explained « Mark Epstein
- Washington City Paper: The Sexist - Prop 8 Protest Roundup
- Large turnout at prop-8 rallies across the country » A Couple Things » A couple things about politics, sports, travel, and other stuff.
- David’s Blog of Common Sense » Prop. 8 Protests Getting Out of Hand!
- Anti-Prop. 8 protest watch « Top Daily Digest Reading
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blockquote>On November 16th, 2008 at 12:22 am, Jet Jaguar said:
I believe that most Mormons are kept in the dark about the true LDS doctrine. Although Mormonism has accomplished wonderful things and has produced quality people, its crushing downfall is its dependence on works for salvation. I wish I could say different, but I find no way around it.
Who gives a crap???? Seriously!!! Didn’t those “works” get this ammendment passed?
It’s people like you and some of your ilk on these boards who made me rethink organized Christian religion in my mid- 20’s, not the Mormons I knew, ironically. (Luckily the conservatism stuck). “Kept in the dark…” “Crushing downfall….” My god, your arrogance and the arrogance of some of the other “Christians” on this board is astounding.
Let’s see
Ignorant Bible Thumpers
Arrogant Know-it-Alls
Mormons who take their bait
I’ve had a full night
redpeach – You make a good point about taking the bait… I really need to back away from the keyboard more.
I’m one Mormon who isn’t – pardon the expression – married to the term, and I’m not going to sue the state for the recognition.
Whatever term folks want to use for my relationship with God, the substance of that relationship is what matters to me.
NAtionwide…NATIONWIDE!!!! Why is this the rest of the nation’s business?
It is bad enough that this state is continually run by people from Southern California who have absolutely no regard for the way things are or run in the rest of the state without having to worr about or deal with idiots from the rest of the country.
If they do not like the way things are run in this state, or the way we vote or feel, then by all means, stay the hell out. Hell, the better part of half this state are not from here as it is. They come here, then try to make this state exactly like whatever screwed up state they came from as it is.
Prop. 8 passed. Stop whining about it. if getting married means so much to you, then move your butts to Massachusetts. Last I heard, Teddy Kennedy will drive you to the ceremony free of charge. Be careful on the bridges though.
Keeeeripes but do these freakin Liberals have nothing better to do on an Indian Summer Saturday buit to continue their whining and crying about things that really does not concern them?
And where, exactly, does it day in the Constitution that ANYONE has the right to get married?
If you ask me, the whole marriage thing went down the tubes when it became a Civil thing and taken away from the chrches. It is why you can get a divorce so easily now a days, and secularism cheapened it and basically made it, “just a piece of paper”.
Obama’s America is NOT my America
You know, maybe the Mormons have some wacky beliefs, and maybe their history is also questionable, but the fact is, it is a Christian sect, it is NOT what it was in the past and they lean HEAVILY on the strength of the family unit and respect families as a whole.
It is the one thing that I respect of them more than any other.
I only wish that I had married someone with even HALF the belief in marriage and family.
Oh…and Obama’s America is NOT my America.
“Bashing Mormons”? How do you figure? “Superiority complex”? Is this what you say someone has when they confront you with a question or valid argument opposing what you believe?
Thanks for the conversation by the way. Have a good night.
Howdy, RetFireman.
–Sulla
Do you have a reference for that?
The point behind “horses in the Book of Mormon” is this: if one can legitimately discount the historicity of the book, then why should one take its claims as Truth?
To folks who dismiss religion as nothing more than good bedtime stories, this is probably no big deal. But to folks who are searching for Truth, searching for the answers to the four basic questions of life (origins, purpose, morality, and afterlife), questions of historical accuracy are of the utmost importance.
Fact#1 Homosexuals who wish to legally marry can do so by moving to those states which permit it. There is no need for protest nor violence. The concept of the various states having different laws and cultures was and is a brilliant solution to the enduring differences amongst the people of this Nation. The last century has seen an all out attack on states rights and thus eliminating a “safety valve” for our people. There are fewer and fewer places for extremists to go and be left alone to live as they choose without someone trying to tell them how to live.
Fact#2 Conservatives are overwhelmingly more likely to own guns and know how to use them. If leftists start a civil war or a wave of violence against us, we will fight back and the leftists will be given a decent burial. I urge leftists to: avoid violence and attempts to threaten conservatives, especially their children; not to steal elections or violate the constitutional rights and freedoms of anyone; not to steal our property or wealth by any means. Any attempt by leftists or leftist government to seize or outlaw the ownership of our weapons is a open declaration of a shooting war – and a prelude to the end of freedom and individual liberty in this country.
Fact #3: If left alone, I try to make the country a better place for everyone – including homosexuals and leftists. I do not care how you live your lives or what you believe until you start trying to run/ruin my life – an act which will force me to retaliate as needed.
Attacking Mormon folk does seem something very far short from a magnficent obsession to me, Joy. Besides for those so driven there is a plethora of religious forums where a person so inclined can have at Mormons, Presbyterians, Baptists, Quakers, Pentacostals and what have you.
And with militant homosexuals launching frontal assaults on Mormons, “useful idiots” attacking from the flanks just isn’t a positive development.
But again – there’s no shortage of religious forums; some folks just need to grasp the concept of “right time and place”.
On November 16th, 2008 at 12:42 am, Joy said:
Ps – Did you know there are unicorns in the Bible? Shhhhh…
If you insist on thumping the Bible every three seconds, you should really learn it first, SendMe:
Unicorn
After years of fights from Christians, Atheists, Pagans, ect., I only refer to myself as LDS, not Christian. We do have different views than typical Christians(as most denominations do), even though we believe in that Jesus Christ fellow, the Bible, ect., but who cares about that? It’s an annoying and pointless fight because the ultra Christians would rather kill and LDS than admit they are Christians, as history proves.
Also it sickens me that any Conservative would vote for a Liberal law that takes away a single persons right to adopt a child. I was raised by a single mother, my father didn’t want anything to do with me and I turned out fine. I don’t care if a child is raised by a heterosexual, homosexual, Christian, Atheist, ect. as long as they are in a good, loving home, it’s better than never having a home or family.
On topic on the post. As much as I opposed Prop 8, something needs to be done to the out of control protesters before they go too far. And, I fear that’s coming very soon.
What right is that, BeLinda?
Not that I care, but here’s the list I found in a text search (KJV):
Job 39: 9-10, Num. 23: 22, Num. 24: 8, Deut. 33: 17, Ps. 22: 21, Ps. 29: 6, Ps. 92: 10, Isa. 34: 7
I suspect it refers to a different animal, and it is, most likely, a translation issue. There are numerous English translations of the Bible, some better than others.
The Shakespearean English of the KJV is poetic, and not necessarily literal; the new KJV tries to improve the accuracy of the translation without sacrificing its eloquence.
Could “horses” in the Book of Mormon be a similar case? I don’t care if it’s actually a horse, a llama, an alpaca, a reindeer, or a ‘57 Mustang; what matters to me in that book is what I learn about Jesus.
Some discount the historicity of the Bible. It’s an active point of contention in Jerusalem, because the stakes are high.
Mormon scholars look at the Book of Mormon from many angles – linguistic, geographic, historic, anthropologic, etc. I don’t expect there to be incontrovertible evidence of the book’s historicicty; to those of us who believe it, there is evidence that fits with our understanding, but I don’t expect it to convince the skeptic.
It’s why they call it “faith.” If an angel appeared on Oprah’s Book Club with the golden plates, an HDTV recording of the discovery, and a signed stone tablet of authenticity from the Almighty, it still wouldn’t convince many. (She may be authoritative, but she’s not infallible; Oprah’s had other authors plug fiction as nonfiction.)
Please take in the spirit offered. I don’t care to argue the point; I’ve been down that road before. We all have the right to believe as we will, including the right to believe someone else’s beliefs are wrong, and the right to be wrong. I try to live true to my beliefs, and respectful of those of others. In the end, God judges.
What right is that, BeLinda?
Send_Me (and ONLY Send_Me) This is long because the thread is pretty much dead now and I hope I’m not taking bait and that you’ll actually hear me out
Don’t let the unicorns bother you. Scholars believe it is an actual reference to a two-horned animal. But it is translated Unicorn.
Unicorns
Isaiah 34:7
Job 39:9-10
Num 23:22
Deut 33:17
Several more, but that makes the point. There are many other things in the bible, such as dragons, leviathans, etc. But those shouldn’t trouble you either.
As for the Book of Mormon and the horse, just because ‘horse’ is used, doesn’t mean it was horses as we know them. Translators choose the most appropriate words. There are many silly things in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Only because of the translation issues.
History is important… but Send_Me, the Spirit is what guides to all truth. If your testimony is based on ‘facts’ then it can be shattered because scientific facts change. And at one point in time there appears no evidence of something, but later the evidence begins to appear.
Here’s my friend Jeff’s site. It’s not official LDS, but I can say most of it is accurate as to what we believe.
To answer those questions as simply as possible, here are the LDS answers.
Origins: We are spirit children of God now living in mortality with a physical body. We were made in His image.
Purpose: To experience good and evil. To learn the difference between good and evil and learn to choose the good. To be tested in all things as were the Israelites to see if we choose properly. It’s a training ground of sorts. While our works do not save us, we are judged and rewarded according to our works. So if we do no works, we get no reward and nothing to judge us by. That’s not good.
Morality: Two basic commandments currently in place, Love God with all might, mind and strength, Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said to go and make diciples of all nations and teach them to observe all that He commanded. If you fulfil those two, it covers it all really, including the 10 commandments.
Afterlife: Depends on what we choose here. But most all of God’s children will make it to one level of glory or another. All will be resurrected, some to eternal life, some to damnation (but we believe damned means separation from God and eternal growth is stopped. Not hellfire and brimstone.)
We believe as Paul that there are several levels so to speak in Heaven and most will go to the telestial, many to the terrestial and many to the Celestial. 1 Cor 40-57
And because we are the children of God we believe we will share in Christ’s glory and become gods, small g. Not Zeus gods, but partaking of Christs divine nature as the Scriptures say. Just as you as a parent aren’t threatened if your children grow up to be like you, neither is God threatened. We NEVER REPLACE HIM, and He will always be our Father and Jesus will always be our Savior and we will always worship them. But Paul said we’d be like Him. Only two ways that can happen, he lowers Himself, or He raises us up.
Those are the basics and I can provide Scriptural references for the things I didn’t have time for.
But make no mistake, we can do nothing, and we are nothing and can never partake of any glory without the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Without his redemption, we are nothing.
I don’t believe the rules usually forbid single persons from adopting, BeLinda. But I think it’s only right and wise that society demands an adoptive single/couple be fit parent(s).
I am learning it, which is why I use the New American Standard Translation as well as the New International Versions. Both are more accurate, based upon new discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. You can also look at the New King James Version. Instead of “unicorn” or “one-horned animal”, more modern translations refer to the Hebrew word re’em as a “wild ox”. Now, there are many possibilities for what this creature could have been: an auroch, an elasmotherium, or even a rhinoceros. Linguistically speaking, there isn’t any real way of knowing. For more information concerning different English translations:
NASB. NIV. NKJV.
Send_Me, thank you for pointing that out. I was about to post and do the same.
Sorry I’ve been away. Very busy here, and the VPN-server at home had issues. I still can’t look back more than 2 pgs, but I gather there has been some attacks on the Book of Mormon.
Just quickly, (I’m technically on duty, it on a mealbreak…), whenever the bashing “It can’t exist because…” starts, I mention this:
A long time ago – I think about 1970 – a friend, an archeologist, noticed the Book of Mormon on my shelf and scoffed. She said that no one prior to Rome used metal plates for records.
In the 1980s, they found a buried set in a dig in Egypt dating around the time of Lehi.
Writing my friend, “nah-nah”-ing about this, she return a reply saying there were no examples in the Americas of any religious texts that used metal plates.
A 1990s dig in S.America found metal plates – sacrifice records, were the 1st found, but more since. All this info is can be found on the LDS F.A.R.M.S. site, heavily footnoted.
Joseph Smith lived long before using metal plates for records was a known practice, and never finished school. How’d he know?
In closing, I want to say: we all that profess belief in Christ, as long as what we have as differences isn’t functional, (ie, that Christ wants us to kill sinners or some such…), why argue, we’ll all know soon enough! When we argue Satan laughs! Let us instead stand together!
Mealtime done! Got to go!
The problem then, SendMe, is that you’re illustrating the very point Joy was making, she noted:
That is, you’re both using the same rationale.
I’m not picking on you here – maybe if I hadn’t gotten any sleep I would have
I’m Christian, certainly of the evangelical stripe. While I don’t take the Book Of Mormon or other LDS writings as Scripture (captial “S”) or ascribe to Mormon beliefs, I don’t think it makes any sense to attack them and I don’t think it’s my job to do so:
Read Mark 9:38-40 and Matthew 13:24–30.
It’s in Somebody Else’s job description to handle such things, SendMe.
This is something that has troubled me for a good long time. I have never really understood why this Christian sect hates that Christian sect etc., etc., etc., when basically we all believe in the same thing, only go about it in differing ways.
To me, it really does not matter if you do the “Stand, Sit, Kneel” method that I do or the “Jump up and down, singing and testifying” method, or any other way, so long as nobody is hurting anyone, taking advantage of anyone and/or anything else in between.
To do so goes against the very foundation of Christianity. What it all boils down to, is that people tend to gravitate to whatever way they are most comfortable with and that suits the particular way in which they worship God.
Why should it really trouble people whether or not someone else is not a member of their particular sect? Last I read, there is no referrence ANYWHERE in the Bible as to which denomination is the “correct” one, only that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.
And hey there Sulla. LTNS. hope everything is well and you guys are all happy…well, as happy as can be considering the beginnings of the New U.S.S.A.
purplepeep said:
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!” Galatians 1:6-9
“Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:2-4
These people Paul is condemning believed that Jesus was the Christ, too. But they twisted and added and changed the gospel. Doctrinal matters do matter to God.
And who’s job is it to contend for the doctrine of the Church? Jude writes “I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” Jude 3b
RetFireman said:
We’re not talking about different prayer postures. The Church is called to be united on certain things – Ephesians 4:1-6. Their Jesus is a created being. My Jesus is not a created being (John 1). That is a different Lord.
If all you got out of my admittedly silly way of describing the different Christian sects was the posturing of praying, then the entire post I had completely escapes you as well.
A lot of Fires here in So. Cal. I wonder if a Flamer started them?
I just know that if gay marriage had passed in California, the religious bigots would be using the fires as an example of God’s punishment. It’s a sick country we live in that I can actually make that statement and have a lot to back it up with. Religious people just gays so much – they blame gays for 9/11, Hurricane Katrina and pretty much every single social ill there is. And up until now, they stayed quite and held back on counter-attacking the church. Honestly, I don’t know how the gays put up with the disgusting treatment they got and continue to get from religion for so long.
But you understand perfectly why they all hate gay people so much? If so, please tell me? I really don’t get it at all. All that stuff about destroying the family and the “slippery slope” are entirely nonsensical and are completely baseless, so unless Christians are delusional, those could not be the reasons.
By all means, TMan, kick the Mormons out of your church membership. Especially if they joined your church just to harrass you into getting circumcized. (Or, if you are a Mormon, just leave the church.)
But you should take note of what stands out to observers here, like RetFireman. I believe you will find angry, self-righteous tirades of Dueling Doctrines are pretty much meaningless.
What does impress and what is meaningful?
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13)
Also consult 1st Corinthians, chapter 13.
And trust me – if God is peeved He’s more than able to defend Himself.
Religious bigots? you mean your side?
Emu you’re so confused.
LOL, laddie. They “gays” are threatening, harrassing and attacking Christian folks and that makes the “gays” the victims here? Alllrrighty then!
You have this so backwards it’s laughable. your side is the haters and don’t respect a persons religion. and lets review “disgusting” it won’t take long, 3 words….. “Folsom Street Fair”
Well, AJ, if you had to constantly condone the thuggery and violence the “gays” are commiting, you’d be a little farshimmelt too!
Morning Peep,
I would have been more thorough on the disgusting part of their lifestyle but I’m trying to keep my coffee down this morning.
G’mornin’ – yeah, I think most of us don’t care what people choose to do in private, AJ. They don’t have to go into any “closest”, just keep it in the bedroom.
Regarding protestant versus Mormon versus Catholic versus whatever; it all boils down to a “My guild is better than your guild” attitude. This universe has been around for, what? Billions of years? So the 80 years or so that each person is here for is the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. You’re going to find out soon enough who’s right. Give it a rest already.
Omu – true Christians do not hate gay people, just like they do not hate murderers, liars, adulterers, tax collectors, lousy politicians, and other such people who are driven by sinful desires that oppose God’s rules for natural order.
True Christians desire that sinners repent, confess, be forgiven, and then enjoy the peace and joy of living that only Christ can give.
“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”
“But thanks be to God who gives us the victory in Jesus Christ our Lord”…sin then has no dominion over us.
We are then saved by grace, His grace. The Holy Spirit convicts a sinful heart and leads him/her to repentance. If a person rejects it, the Spirit may someday give up on that person, but true Christians must not stop trying to share the gospel. To do so would have eternal negative consequences upon those who refuse this free gift.
So do not look at those so-called Christians who hate and mock (ie: the Kansas bunch who travel to military funerals), they are doing the gospel of Jesus Christ no service, and shall have their own reward.
As far as why are the anti-prop 8 after Mormons?…they are a smaller group to attack.
Unfortunately, you may have hit the nail on the head. The areas now burning are the ones most likely to have voted for prop 8. Orange county is probably next.
The Bible calls homosexuality an “abomination”. I think that means it’s something I shouldn’t do. Perhaps it results in something like Omu. Just sayin’.
You folks need to keep in mind that this whole mess really started and got a whole bunch of play when the MSM (again) got the story wrong and played the victim card (gay bashing) over the Matthew Sheppard event…the one that revealed that the attack was not about his homosexuality, but over drugs and theft.
Well said, brother. We Christians are clinging to God and guns but we practice with both.
I be clinging to the remote today,,,,, football day… thank you God.
it’s so past time for a new thread.
Cool, I’m out.
Homosexuals who have left the lifestyle and are now saved by God’s grace are the living testament to the power of the gospel. For the gay community, these former gays are their biggest problem, and the ones who are quick to be discredited.
Don’t you guys watch South Park? The Mormons are right.
True, Jag, it was just a robbery by a couple of violent thugs before militant homosexula groups wanted to cash in and they needed to have it changed to a “hate crime”.
In the meantime the media avoided talking about the murder of Jesse Dirkhising.
Michelle should have a “Football & Other Foolishness” thread up every Sunday, AJ!
The MSM…so dependable, and predictable.
maybe she heard you.
Used to have Saturday or Sunday fun threads..
I don’t know why you nuts can’t all get along.
There are countries in the world where Jesus lovers and gays are killed.
Like Ahmadinejad said, “We don’t have homosexuals in Iran.”
You are all AMERICANS that live in this country; there are enough REAL enemies of the United States out there to go around.
You all should feel a little foolish, and try to act like Americans and not like some oppressive country…
Well, if not, we could have the faith folks pray for a “fun thread” instead of snipin’ at one another!
lol.
American by birth, Christian by choice.
Being an American will not be of benefit when this life is over, but Christ will give me everlasting life.
All Americans should choose the same, but freedom is what it is…as it was in the garden…freedom to choose.
Freedom is a GREAT responsibility!
I’m sitting here watching the fire coverage wondering why al gore hasn’t ponied up some dough from his hoax money for a couple super tankers to help get these fires out right now. I guess his money is better used for himself than on his dumb scam.
Oh wait it’s winter he’s in hiding….
Al the bitter bear is in hibernation till summer.
Outside of your cult, you sound REALLY dumb.
oh please, disagreeing with mormons is bashing them
if you cannot defend your position, don’t ascribe to your opposition words like ‘hate’ ‘bashing’ its sophmoric and idiotic.
cry me a river there peachy!! especially since I’ve won this little arguemnt.
and uh peachy, these are serious issues we are arguing about. the mormons claim to be christian…oh yes they are VERY loud is this proclamation…but they disagree with the historic christian faith on the very foundational issues of our faith. They do not believe the trinity…they are not christian plain and simple.
I have more respect for the muslims, who disagree with christianity, but at least do not claim to BE christians.
if you cannot defend your faith, don’t blame me. and if you cannot defend your faith with reason, then what is the reason for your faith?
and you sound intelligent when???
Well, I ain’t in no cult, Clem.
let me guess, you’re an atheist evolutionist…
you only think you’re not in a cult.
I do what I wanna do,
Say what I wanna say,
Live how I wanna live,
Play how I wanna play,
Dance how I wanna dance,
Kick and I slap a friend.
Maybe you should pay more attention. I’m not relgious. I’m not Mormon. I was talking about how willing all of you are to have the Mormons do the actual work and then so quickly start stabbing them in the back the minute the opportunity presents itself. And you are not having a “conversation” with them. The whole thing was started by Send_Me taking “issue” with the fact Christ is in their name. You’re telling them they are wrong, that they shouldn’t have Christ in their name, that their beliefs are blashpemous, etc. You and you little bible thumping friends started it with the intent of embarassing them. It seems to me they have adequately answered your questions, but clearly you don’t care about answers. You only care about being “right.” I consider that bashing.
You “won” the argument? What argument was that? That Mormons aren’t Christian? So not only do you speak for all Christians as to what is CORRECT based on your own interpretation of scripture, you’re also judge and jury. How did I not see that one coming?
This thread just reminds me how sincerely bothered I am that the religious right has such a stranglehold on the party. There are so many rational and logical reasons to believe in conservative principles (including opposition to abortion) than “Because the Bible tells me so!!!” I’m not saying faith shouldn’t dictate someone’s politics and thank goodness for so many dedicated religious people int the party, but it’s this very attitude that is shared by so many of your kind of “I’m right!!! Yay for me!!! God loves me the most and I’m RIGHT!!! I winnnnn!!!” is counterproductive, alienating, and beyond that, stupid.
oh please, give me a break. this has nothing to do with prop 8. I defend them on that one. I don’t defend them on their claim to being christian.
and tell me if you’re not why are you defending them? do they need you to defend them?
yeah just as they tell me I am wrong..so? my how deep you are to know the intent of my heart
give me a break….
it seems to me they avoided the hard questions…the mormons use similar phrases to christianity, but pour different meanings into them…and trying to bring that out is the hard part.
and you know I could give a rats rear end that YOU consider it bashing…who cares? you are bashing christians RIGHT NOW!! how about that!!
oh please this is so sophmoric. no christian church considers the mormons christians. and we get tired of them proclaiming their christianity..when they are not. so you don’t mind the mormons proclaiming themselves christians, but you object to anyone who dares object to them…gee I didn’t see that one coming
duhhhh
what stranglehold? you’re a seriously deluded nut job. mccain was YOUR guy…you lost, deal with it.
your diatribe has shown your stupidity, and I feel sorry for you, such stupidity has to hurt.
oh yes you are the CAPTAIN OF YOUR DESTINY…master of all your survey!!!!
you’re your own little god!!
Why are gays attacking the Mormon Church?
Probably in no small part for the same reason they are attacking Palin:
To damage Romney’s chances in 2012.
With Leftists, there are multiple objectives per agenda.
purplepeep said:
Christians are to confront those who distort the faith – Acts 13:6-12, for example.
purplepeep said:
So I guess that would make Paul’s letter to the Galatians just an angry, self-righteous tirade. Jesus was hated because He publicly exposed false religious teachers. He even called people names at times. There is a time for tenderness, and there is a time for confrontation.
I am not angry, nor am I self-righteous. I do not appeal to myself, but to the Bible.
purplepeep said:
And yet Jesus, the perfect example of love, grew angry and publicly thrashed people. There is more to love than being silent while others err in regards to salvation.
purplepeep said:
I’m not defending God, I’m contending for the faith, just like the Bible commands me to do.
RetFireman said:
The problem is, we don’t all basically believe the same thing. The problem with the Mormon church in particular is that they are deceptive – they use words and phrases that have meant one thing for centuries, and then use them, except to mean something entirely different. They claim to be just like another denomination. That isn’t so.
The Bible says we are saved, not by being pretty good people, but by a certain faith in a certain Person.
Perhaps I should agree with you? Perhaps I shouldn’t bother to correct Omu when he teaches that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior? Some things in the Bible are not essential to salvation, but some are. If you cannot see the importance in fighting for people’s eternal destiny, than I do not know what to tell you.
RogerCfromSD said:
Nah, they are going after the Mormons because they were a visible group that opposed proposition 8 that are also a minority eyed with suspicion by many folks.
I think it has nothing to do with Romney. Whether people think I am some kind of Mormon basher or whatever, so be it. I did support Romney during the primaries. He wasn’t great, but I thought he was marginally better than the others, especially McCain.
Whatever you think of Romney, he just didn’t do well. Was it because of his flip flops, or being a Mormon, I don’t know. I do know that he had a lot of money and didn’t come away with much to show for it. So I don’t think Romney would be good for 2012. Perhaps Palin, Jindal, or someone else, we’ll see. I seriously doubt the proposition 8 supporters in California are concerned about Romney becoming president in 4 years.
Joy,
Elder Richard J. Maynes Of the Seventy says in Keeping Our Covenants:
“In order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom, we must gain the trust of the Lord here on earth. We gain the trust of the Lord through earning it, and that is accomplished through our actual performance in living His gospel and keeping our covenants. In other words, we earn the trust of the Lord by doing His will.”
This is the rub. If we can earn even the smallest sliver of salvation, then Christ’s death and resurrection was insufficient. I do respect Mormons. I’m a huge fan of Glenn Beck (who is Mormon). I’m not even going to say that Mr. Beck or other Mormons aren’t saved. In fact, I believe that many Mormons are Christians, just as I believe that many non-Mormon church attenders are not Christians. That is not surprising because Christ warned us of this. I am willing to accept a Mormon’s word that they are a Christian if they say so. I am not to judge that. The Mormon Church, as an organization however, is hostile to the Gospel; but then again, so are many main-line Christian denominations. Truly it comes down to this: is the individual a Christian? None can put their hope in an organization, but can only be a member of the Living Body of Christ on Earth: the Church.
posted wrong link in “this” on post #360.
this should be that
Jet Jaguar – That’s not salvation, that’s exaltation he’s speaking of. Two different things. Paul dilineated the difference too. But I’m sure you’d like to ignore all that obedience stuff! (best whiny voice – It’s tooo harrrrrrrd.)
Hey, if you guys want to believe that you’re saved and you want to not pray, not go to church, not give to the poor, not visit the widows and orphans, not read your Scriptures… not be kind to your neighbors, insult, deride, cuss, drink yourselves into stupors, Party On!
When it comes time to be ‘judged by your works to receive your reward’ just tell Jesus, “I don’t need no steenking works!” And you’ll end up in the lowest level of the Kingdoms of glory. It’s still saved and still glory and I’m sure you’ll be happy there.
I’ll let all of you keep your drive-through religion… want a side of fries with that?
You pick and choose which scriptures to pay attention to. All the easy ones I notice. Party on Jet! Sin until you drop! You’re saved by grace! Woo-Hoo!
Just whatever you do… DON’T OBEY!!!
Ooops.. I forgot the ‘/sarc’ and the smilie face
And ya know what, you might even hear a Mormon say something to the effect, ‘We save ourselves.’ That ought to get you going. But what they mean is that we all have FREE AGENCY and by accepting the free gift of salvation wrought by Jesus Christ, that we choose to save ourselves. But that saved condition could never occur without the work of Jesus on the Cross. See?
In other words we make sure people don’t think Calvanistically and think that we have no choice in the matter, and that Jesus doesn’t just randomly select some for heaven and some for an eternity in flames.
Your small act of choosing to accept the free gift is in a small sense ’saving yourself.’ We as LDS know that it is IMPLICIT that without Jesus we ar NO-THING. Without the Atonement we can’t save one single cell. Can you at least try to wrap your mind around that?
We eat, breathe, sleep and live every day and moment of our lives around the Atonement of Jesus and take his words seriously when he said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” And what are His commandments? To love God with all our hearts, minds and souls and love our neighbor as ourselves. That IMPLICITELY requires works. You cannot do what He said without performing works. It is not possible.
uh we do those things BECAUSE we are saved…not to earn our salvation
and there is a difference between our reward and our salvation…its another of MANY things in the bible you do not understand.
and this is why mormons are NOT christians…we are saved by grace through faith. you denigrate the work of Christ, and are saying that what He did on the cross isn’t good enough for your salvation…have fun explaining that to Him!
good luck working your way to heaven..I’ll rely on the FINISHED work of Christ.
so tell me joy…and try to answer this, and not ignore it…what works did the thief on the cross do? and what works did the woman whom Jesus told ‘your faith has saved you’ do???
and answer me this joy…mormons say God the father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are all Gods…separate…
but Isaiah 43:10 says:
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
so how can Jesus be God, if He is separate from the Father..when there is only one God…and there will be no more gods???
oh and joy, please list the works that are required, and how many times you have to do them to be saved.
SoCal:
“A fool says in his heart, “There is no God’”.
You, sir, are a fool. Enjoy what you have now because you aren’t going to like the rest of eternity.
BTW,:
I do what I wanna do,
Say what I wanna say,
Live how I wanna live,
Play how I wanna play.
But I do it for God
another thread hi-jacked, this one over religion.
You have a very selective mind, I see!
You play semantics. Look at the preceding sentence to the section that I excerpted: “Brothers and sisters, we are all looking forward to the day when we can return home to our Heavenly Father” Sounds like he is talking about salvation to me. He establishes context and what he says after is in light of that context. Now the Mormon scriptures do indeed differentiate between salvation and “exaltation”. This establishes a caste system in the next life according to one’s assigned level of exaltation. This is not a Biblical concept. The Bible establishes that there will be rewards and different responsibilities, but no where does it talk about exalting one believer over another.
You resort to a non sequitur, ad hominem attack against me, accusing me of advocating a depraved lifestyle …of presuming on God’s grace. Romans deals with this very topic.
You’ve got the cart-before-the-horse when it comes to works and salvation: We do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not in order to be saved or to earn Spiritual brownie points. The true believer’s life will be evidenced by good works. We can’t fake it to make it. John 15:5 says
I can not bear fruit (good works) by myself. I must first be plugged into the vine (saved). If I am in the vine, I will bear fruit. The branch can not bear fruit on its own, as you seem to be saying. Galations 2:20-21 says:
No one can be saved by being obedient to the law. See Galations 3:1-14:
There just are no works there. Abraham was saved because he believed God!
Now comes the Coup de grâce to expose Mormonism’s core. This is the highest “exaltation” that you and other Mormons seek. I direct you to “The Articles of Faith” by James Edward Talmage, a member of your Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in the early 1900s. In Lecture IV, Section 29.I.,
Well, what say you to this, Joy? Are you indeed on the path to become a priest after the order of Melchisedek and to become a God?
Sister, that is blasphemy.
Actually, you won’t be a priest but one of your Celestial husband’s herum as you pop out those millions of spirit babies to populate the next M-Class planet that comes available (currently, our Mormon-come-God lives on Planet Kolob, right?).
You will NOT become a God or God-wife, or God-anything. There is One God and you are not Him!
So there we have it. The very root of Mormonism is what the Serpent told Eve in the Garden when he said, “you will be like God” (Genesis 3:4)
This is the truth that I believe most Mormons don’t know, or somehow marginalize.
Sorry. I’ll try to be good, but Joy has touched a nerve.
You’re very confused, TMan. Last I checked we’re not composing an epistle to a church here. If memory serves, the topic on this political blog is “gays” attacking Mormon folk for doing the right thing.
Now if you have some misguided notion otherwise, that means you actually believe all here to be Christians, since Paul didn’t write epistles for those outside the faith. Either way, trust me, you’re not Paul.
You can certainly try to excuse your attacks using some kind of “I’m Just Like Jesus” persecution-complex defense if you really feel you need to. But again, trust me, you are not Jesus. And it’s not a wise idea to invoke His name out of vanity – it’s not to be used as a salve for a bruised ego.
If I were you I’d spend more time contemplating why the homosexual militants are going after Mormon folks and not you. There is a good question that goes something like: “If you were arrested for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you?”
Yup and the crazy thing is that some folks are joining the militant homosexuals in attacking some other folks for doing the right thing. On a political blog, yet. Go figure.
You’re right. My bad. C’mon Mormons, let’s get the militant homos
purplepeep said:
The topic of discussion had long since drifted to other things before I even posted on this thread. And if you accuse me of derailing this thread, do you not accuse yourself? For example – when you went after Send_Me’s “Bible thumping” ways? Log first, then the speck.
purplepeep said:
First, who have I “attacked?”
Second, by pointing to examples of Jesus’ and Paul’s behavior, I am somehow claiming or acting like I think I am the Messiah or an Apostle?
Jesus says, “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master” Matthew 10:25a.
Paul wrote, “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ” 1st Corinthians 11:1.
Both confronted false prophets openly, and were at times very confrontational about it. Obviously Paul did not see a contradiction in writing about love in 1st Cor. 13 and publicly rebuking and shaming Elymas (Acts 13:6-12).
purplepeep said:
Who says the “homosexual militants” aren’t going after me? LOL, if you only knew…
Jet Jaguar – I was only using the same tactics you all use on me. Didn’t you see the tagline post under it “/sarc and the smilie face.” Sounds pretty ridiculous eh? That’s how you guys sound.
You all build straw man arguments and then pretend to tear them down. And then squeal, I won, I won!! I didn’t realize there’s a reserved number and we’re competing against each other for space in heaven.
right4life – Hope you had fun typing cuz I didn’t read your last spittle. You’re a really hatefilled person. I’m not sure why, but whatever happened to you Jesus Christ can heal it.
Jet Jaguar, I didn’t read past the first few lines of your post either. I can see it’s just another of the same. No attempt at all to comprehend what I wrote.
Good works = Charity, giving, caring for others, imparting your substance to those in need.(Loving your neighbor) Keeping the Sabath Day Holy. (loving God)
Works of Law = Circumcision, follow letter of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:16 – Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father , forasmuch as ye know that you labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Titus 1:16 – They profess that they know God: but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 2:14-26 – 14 What doth it profit my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and well-filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so, faith without works is dead. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? …24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rev 2:23 …and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Gosh, sure looks like the LDS teaching of faith and works being inseparable is Biblical!
Three heavens + Paradise – 1 Cor 15: 40 – 58 Sun, moon, stars all have different glory, just as resurrected beings do. The level depends on our obedience. Even the lowest is a level of glory as in a ’saved’ condition.
2 Cor 12:2 Paul caught up to THIRD HEAVEN… and Paradise. Three heavens intimates different levels of glory.
You think YOU are the only ones who can interpret Scripture and anyone who disagrees is going to hell to burn for all eternity.
Answer me a few questions. Saved by grace according to YOUR CHOICE? Or the Calivanistic way of Saved by Grace according to Random Chance? Also, do you believe in the Trinity that was VOTED on by men 1400 years after Christ? Hardly part of the Bible. Or do you believe the Catholic version? Lutheran version? Unitarian version?
John 17 Ponder it. Read it 50 times and maybe if you really ask Father to help you understand oneness, you’ll get it.
Rapture, no Rapture? If Rapture, is it pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib?
Tongues or no tongues? Miracles or are they out the window too?
Yep, you guys are all on the same page alright. Total unity.
The only unity you have is in hating everyone who disagrees with you or interprets the Scriptures a bit different. Then you think it’s your divine duty to beat people up with your Bibles, ignore anything you simply don’t understand and Pronounce VICTORY.
You guys are the ones following every wind of doctrine, spewing HATE every direction you look.
Good luck with that. Have a glorious night. And again, you’re welcome for the passage of Prop 8.
I’ll no longer read any of your posts. Because you don’t even attempt to understand another POV. Your debate style is nothing but ugly.
PS – I don’t know what god you worship, but it’s not Our Father Who Art in Heaven, that’s for sure.
I haven’t seen one ounce of love or civility come from any of you.
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Purplepeep – Thank you.
Joy said:
Keeping the Sabbath is one of the works of the Law of Moses.
As far as faith and works go, well, that is an often misunderstood subject. Without getting into that subject (again, with some of the same people), I will point out that merely believing in Christ, having faith in Christ, is itself a work that you do. Don’t take my word for it, listen to Jesus’ words in John 6:26-29.
According to Jesus, we are to work to receive what we did not earn. That is, we are to do something (believe in Christ) in order to receive something (God’s grace, His unmerited favor). While we’re not saved by our works, we’re not saved without works, either.
Joy said:
1 Cor. 15:40-58 does not teach that there are varying levels of glorious resurrection bodies.
In the context, Paul is addressing those who deny a resurrection of the dead (see 15:12). He points out that, just as there is an earthly body (our bodies in the present life), our bodies will be transformed into something else when resurrected. He does not say anything about different levels of glorious resurrection bodies.
Joy said:
According to the ancient understanding of the cosmos, the first heaven referred to the realm of birds and clouds. The second heaven was above it, where the Sun, Moon, and stars dwelled. Above this, was located Heaven, Paradise, where God and His angels dwelled. This is the 3rd heaven. It is this third heaven that Paul calls Paradise. Nothing written by Paul indicates different levels of glory in resurrection bodies, or different levels of Heaven/Paradise.
That’s pretty much like an arsonist who upon seeing a housefire, rushes to add more gasoline to the blaze and then states “it was already burning when I got here”.
Nope – I think there’s plenty of blame to go around, but not many as people are willing to take responsibilty for their wrong actions these days. I believe if you check you’ll find I’ve consistently tried to point out both the absurdity and the lack of Christian charity involved.
No, I think you’re just making excuses and you’re seeking self-justification within a context you know.
It’s a common tactic, a televanglist who’s being investigated for stowing millions in his Swiss bank accounts might say “I’ve healed thousands – just like Jesus!”. I think there are few, if any, such types who don’t claim they are really just doing what Jesus did. (Even Charles Manson tried that line of reasoning.)
But where you are confused bibically and theologically – and what serves as a derailing point – is in not knowing that Paul wrote his epistles to believers, not to those outside of the churches. So, your entire context is wrong. Unless, as I’ve said, you accept all here as true Christian believers.
Joy,
I did read your posts. And I took the time to answer you. I did notice that you posted once while I was forming my next post. I read it and felt that I’d already addressed the issues you raised in my next post. One thing, accepting God’s free gift is not an act – a work. It is believing God that saves. Believing is not an act, in the sense of I have to **do** something.
Joy, I certainly did not mean to convey hatred. I tried to answer your questions, but noted that you have not answered mine. Particularly in regard to what Talmage said about Mormons becoming God’s. My inquiry is not a wild accusation; it is a question, and you have chosen to cover your ears and start loudly humming “Paint Your Wagon” tunes. Mormons do this every time because you are taught that when anyone raises a real question that could somehow detract from the Party-line, you are told that it is a test of your faith.
I agree with you that a Christian will do God’s good works, and that if he is not doing them, then something is wrong.
As I’ve said that apparently you didn’t read or have chosen to ignore, is that the cart cannot go before the horse. Salvation first, then God’s good works through the believer. You want the other way around. Your particular POV, as you say, I have carefully considered for many-many years through in depth Bible study, books, seminars, hundreds of conversations, and yes, prayer. My conclusion is that your POV is wrong. Now, I don’t pretend to know everything, but on these matters, I know whereof I speak.
I don’t want to show you up. It’s not fun. I’ve been flamed and shown up lots of times. Maybe this time. It’s a jungle out there though, and sometimes we’ve gotta take our licks. I’m not a good debater. This subject, however, is one of my few areas of interest where I might know a little something.
As far as hating goes, you’ve been hard on me, attributing to me motives that I do not have and accusing and judging me. We may both be haters, God knows, but that is irrelevant to the questions that I’ve asked you. You refuse to answer.
Fixed it for you.
Oh, one more thing I was going to say to Joy, but forgot. In Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus plainly taught that there were two gates – the narrow and the wide. The many who go through the wide gate go to “destruction.” “Destruction” doesn’t sound like a lesser level of Heaven to me.
Well, Joy, I don’t agree with Mormomism but I see no point in attacking it. And it doesn’t make much sense to do so in a political blog entry, ironically enough, about Mormons being under attack for doing the right thing!
That’s even setting aside just your garden variety basic human respect.
But if it makes you feel any better, Joy, I’d hazard a guess that most of the folks going after your faith are just as adamant that Catholics are not really Christians either. As I sez, I think it’s wise to let God handle the question. I’d hazard another guess that He doesn’t need a whole lot of help from us to do so.
purplepeep said:
No, there is an important distinction you are missing here. I’m not the one complaining about this thread going off topic. It happens. A lot. Such is the nature of the Internet.
You, on the other hand, went after me for derailing this thread, about how we ought to stay on topic, after you yourself went off topic. In this instance, you are the hypocrite, not me.
purplepeep said:
Please abide by your own standard and try to stay on the original topic of this thread.
purplepeep said:
Then by all means, show how I have twisted the Scriptures to rationalize my bad behavior. But yes, it is much easier to simply accuse me of something rather than trying to prove it.
purplepeep said:
1. Elymas Bar-Jesus, the magician, was not in Paul’s church.
2. Paul didn’t write Elymas an epistle, but confronted and shamed him publicly.
I don’t want to point out what a stretch you’re reaching in a “proof text” there, TMan, so instead I’ll just say when you’re in Cyprus and are ticked off by Jewish sorcerers, go ahead and have at it.
Just out of curiousity – I’m wondering if you think Catholics also are not Christians, TMan?