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right4life said:

…if faith was a work, or any other thing that could be called a work, then you are given what is due you…(salvation) and then it is not a gift…

Trollman has already made some good points about this. I’ll just add a few additional thoughts of my own. While the worker is worthy of his hire, he has to be hired first. Consider this example:

If I promise a kid $5 to wash my car, and he makes a good effort to do it, then I owe him the wage I promised. It is not a gift. But, if the kid washes my car on his own and then knocks on my door and demands that I pay him $1000 for washing my car, I have no obligation to pay him anything. This is because I did not hire him to do the work nor did I promise to pay him $1000 if he did.

If I take pity on him anyway, and hand him a few bucks for his efforts, it is a gift. It is not a wage even if the kid did a lot of work to wash my car. To be paid a wage for work, the worker must have an agreement with the employer. Without it, you are not entitled to payment no matter how much work you do.

Salvation is a gift of God; we could never do enough or pay enough to “earn” it. God has never promised us, or made an agreement with us, that we can earn salvation. So no matter how much faith we have or how many good works we perform, we cannot demand salvation as our wage. But if God chooses to give us the gift of salvation because He is pleased with the works of faith we have done in this life, it is still a gift – it is not “due” us. Obeying God and trying to do good works because we love Him and want to please Him is not an “impure motive.”

I agree that faith is a gift from God. Talents are also a gift from God. If we bury our talents, they will not increase, and God will take them from us and give them to a more faithful servant. Likewise it is with faith. If we do not exercise our faith, it will not grow and the gift may be taken from us. But it takes effort (work) to exercise our faith rather than bury it or hide it under a bushel. That’s why James says that “by works was faith made perfect” and “faith without works is dead.” You need to have both, not to earn salvation, but to increase in faith and to please God.

look at the thief on the cross, he did nothing…and Abraham, the bible says he believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, not anything he did, other than believe.

The thief confessed his own guilt and then defended Jesus to the others, which is something even Peter was afraid to do at trial. I would say that his actions were not “nothing” – they were considerable. Had Jesus turned to him and spoke those words without the thief doing anything, then you might have a point. In fact, I don’t recall where Jesus healed anyone (except children) without them first acting on their faith by seeking him out or confessing their belief.

As for Abraham, he did more than just believe. He also acted on his belief and thereby exercised his faith. He perfected his faith by his works as this quote from James (referenced earlier) makes clear:

James 2:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

It seems that you will believe the Bible only as far as it is translated the way you like it. In any case, this discussion is beginning to go in circles. I’ve enjoyed reading the different points of view, but it’s time to move on.

then I’m not sure what we’re arguing about?? God has mercy on whom He will, and He hardens whom He will…and He gives faith to whom He will…

I agree with all of those things. The problem is, those statements mean different things to different people. To see if we are actually in agreement or disagreement, we need to clarify what those statements mean.

Romans addresses a division in the church between the Jewish and Gentile believers. For the first 10 chapters, Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians who believe they are somehow superior to the Gentiles (both Gentile Christians and pagans) simply because they are Jews. In chapter 11, Paul then addresses the Gentile Christians who feel superior to Jews (both Jewish Christians and Jews who reject Jesus). In chapters 12 and following, he then goes into various instructions related to the church.

In chapter 9, which you allude to here, Paul is still talking to the Jewish Christians. He is addressing those that believe God has to save them, simply because they are Jews, descended from Abraham, physically circumcised, their ancestors received the Law and the promises, etc.

It was this very same attitude that John the Baptist confronted during his ministry a few decades earlier. “Do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Some of the Jews of the first century believed that God had to spare them and prosper them, in order for God to keep His promise to Abraham about his descendants. But John points out that God can keep His promise another way, by raising up sons of Abraham from places other than the Jews. Presumably, John uses rocks as an example, because he was in a desert place and there were, well, rocks all around. We know from the NT Scriptures that those other places God can raise up sons of Abraham are the Gentiles.

Tying into what Jesus said in John 6, Jesus was comparing the work they were doing (for the food which perishes, “the manna from the days of Moses”) vs. the work God wanted them to do (for the food which endures to eternal life, Jesus – the true manna/bread).

They were trusting in the Law of Moses to save them, but the Law of Moses doesn’t save anyone. By it’s very nature, the Law can only condemn the sinner, it cannot justify the sinner. But the law of faith in Christ does provide justification for the sinner.

They were placing their faith in their deeds, rather than placing their faith in God. In Romans 9:30-33, Paul concludes that God does have the right and sovereignty to reject Israel (those Jews who rejected Jesus), for God can keep His promise to Abraham since true sons of Abraham are those who have the same kind of faith as Abraham, and not those who are physically descended from him or circumcised like him (Gal. 3:26-29).

Now I said all of that to get to this: a sinner cannot be saved unless he is called by God. One’s own good deeds cannot cover up one’s own misdeeds (Gen. 3:7, 10 21). Therefore God has to provide us with that covering. We cannot have salvation from our sin without first believing in Jesus. We cannot believe in Jesus without first hearing about Jesus, which comes from His Word (Rom. 10:13-18).

But our salvation still requires us to do something: that we respond to the Gospel, to ask God for our salvation, to call upon His Name. The asking, the calling upon His Name, the trusting does not earn salvation, but it is the avenue in which we receive what we did not earn. Man plays a part in his salvation (he has to ask for it), but he plays no part in earning salvation. Salvation was completely and solely earned by the work of Christ – by His perfect life and willing sacrifice.

My apologies for the length, I was long winded in hopes of avoiding confusion.

ergon

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

e¹rga/zomai

to work, labour, do work
to trade, to make gains by trading, “do business”
to do, work out
exercise, perform, commit
to cause to exist, produce
to work for, earn by working, to acquire

We’ve already agreed that faith earns you nothing.

then I’m not sure what we’re arguing about?? God has mercy on whom He will, and He hardens whom He will…and He gives faith to whom He will…

I did answer directly. and I based that answer on scripture. didn’t you read what I wrote follow the scripture??

Here is what I didn’t read: your response to my points about the “work” mentioned in Romans 4:4-5. You chose the quote. Then I pointed out the context of the passage you quoted, showing that it does not refer to “any work,” but to a particular kind of work – works of the Law of Moses, circumcision in particular.

I’ll be more than happy to discuss the other passages with you, but for practical reasons, let’s first finish discussing the passages already mentioned. Unless you are afraid that, upon examining the context of Romans 4, it doesn’t say what you claim it says…

Now in regard to your lengthy quote, referring to the passage I brought up, John 6. Let’s look at the part you bolded:

Hence, it is something that God requires, and man must do it to obtain eternal life, but it is not something that by doing that man merits anything with God on his own

I agree completely with this part.
1. Faith is something God requires.
2. Man must “do faith” to obtain eternal life.
3. By “doing faith,” man does not merit anything with God.

So we both agree on these 3 points. Our disagreement then stems from this:

right4life said:

again, a work requires payment…salvation is a gift. you are saying God owes you salvation for having faith. which isn’t the case.

That is simply not true. We’ve already agreed that faith earns you nothing. Look up the words translated as “work” – ergon and ergadzomai in a NT Greek Lexicon. What you will find is that each word can have several meanings, and only some – not all – include the idea of working towards earning/receiving a wage.

When you look those words up, you will realize that a work does not necessarily include the idea of earning a wage. A “work” can simply be an action, any action, without respect to a wage. Such as believing.

As far as my illustration about the $1000 gift, it is still a gift, not a labor contract. If you give me a high five, and I decide not to give you the $1000 after all, what are you going to do, take me to court? Judge Judy, I earned $1000 for the work performed, I demand it. Judge Judy, after recovering from laughter, will tell you did nothing to earn $1000 – it was an offer of a gift, not a labor contract.

Joni Eareckson Tada has been paralyzed for a long time…so does she not have the faith for a miracle? since faith is a work, then is it her fault she’s still paralyzed, since she doesn’t have enough faith for a miracle, does she?—————————————

Ms. Tada is a great woman. Here’s an interesting thought for you (and anyone else who cares to read on); maybe she isn’t ASKING to be healed of her paralysis. Maybe her faith has led her to contentment with herself and her life the way they are.

That, in its own way, is a miracle of healing.

Joni Eareckson Tada has been paralyzed for a long time…so does she not have the faith for a miracle? since faith is a work, then is it her fault she’s still paralyzed, since she doesn’t have enough faith for a miracle, does she??

so do you have enough faith for your salvation? does she? does anyone really know?

I’ll rely on His mercy, and His grace, and His gift…rather than my own faith…which is usually sorely lacking…

29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, 30since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

how can you receive a faith, if it is something you have to have and do???

Jesus declares “no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65)

why is that if faith is a work that you do???

Romans 9:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

If I say, “Out of the goodness of my heart, I will give anyone who comes to me and gives me a high five $1000.” By coming to me and giving me a high five, does that earn you $1000? No, it does not, it is still a gift based upon my promise and goodness, not upon you earning it. If you do not come to me, and if you do not give me a high five, then you will not receive the gift.

you state a job basically…give me a high five…and then you state the payment for that job…$1,000

its not a gift. whoever gives you a high five EARNS the money, and it is due them.

you are saying the Lord owes you salvation because of your faith. I believe salvation is a gift that comes through faith…but it is NOT owed to you because of your faith…see the difference??