Gagging pro-lifers in New York City
You can stand in front of a church yelling “Mormon scum,” but if you pray in front of a taxpayer-subsidized abortion clinic, watch out.
Emily L. e-mails:
I thought you might find this interesting. NYC is considering legislation to create a 15 foot buffer zone between abortion protestors and the clinics. The legislation would also enable the clinics to press harrassment charges against protestors, even if the patients don’t wish to pursue charges. This is one opinion piece about the proposal: link.
Even more interesting was the flurry of Letters to the Editor sent to the Daily News today. This is from Planned Parenthood:
Free choice protected
Manhattan: Let’s not confuse freedom of speech with blanket permission to harass, stalk, intimidate and verbally abuse. The Council’s Clinic Access Bill is an important piece of legislation that would not only protect health care centers’ rig ht to operate, but ensure the physical and emotional safety of all who walk through our doors. As one of the leading providers of reproductive health care in New York City, we see the daily impact of anti-abortion extremists blocking our clients’ and staff’s path.
Joan Malin, Planned Parenthood of N.Y.C.Perhaps the various businesses, restaurants, and churches in California could borrow the wording found in the NYC proposed legislation and use it to stop the Anti Proposition 8 terrorists who are using such violent tactics to get their point across. Surely no liberal would have a problem with this measure being used to protect the conservative members of our society as well as those who wish to exercise their right to choose? The people who contributed to the passing of Proposition 8 were also exercising their rights, after all.
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Why is it that looney, leftwing liberals only think that freedom of speech, freedom of expression, et. al. only applies to them?
Interesting choice of words. Of the footage I’ve ever seen of protestors, they’re either on their knees, silently saying a rosary, or quietly marching with signs.
And in my humble opinion, all the churches and businesses that are being harrassed by the Lavender Mafia these days should take a lesson from Big Bro and install security cameras. Maybe that would “lethen” the bravado of the aggrieved.
Unless, of course, we are talking about those bigot Christians.
tre: Left-wing liberals think that freedoms only apply to them because they are the most selfish people in the world. They claim to want to help everyone but they don’t. They only want to promote their agenda and anyone who disagrees with them is out of luck.
I support any law that supports emotional safety.
The way of freedom is not safe. Prayer harms no one.
And I support any law that protects my First Amendment right to free speech, free assembly, and free expression of religion.
Studies show 67% of women who have abortions were coerced or forced into doing so. Is that “emotional safety”? Is that “choice”?
No, I think not.
But this doesn’t surprise me. We’re the “minority” now, or so we’re told, and now it’s high time the majority be respected.
I will not be silenced.
After seeing what the pro-McCain supporters went through, walking through the Upper West Side, it amazes me how people can think they need a ‘buffer zone’ of protection from people on the Right.
Correct.
Socialists/collectivists/statists are existentialists and narcissists.
They hold to an opposite, irreconcilably different worldview; and deny, and ridicule the belief in, the existence of a soul, and of a transcending being.
For them, man is the ultimate; and also for them, this life, this existence (hence, their label) is it. They believe (note that they do not know; rather they just believe) that there is nothing after death.
Hence, their adolescent, inconsistent, selfish, etc. thinking.
For them, nothing counts but money, sex, and power – which, as I’ve pointed out before, could be considered manifestations of the same thing.
Their position on virtually any, if not every, issue can be traced back to money, sex, and power.
It’s very sad for them.
And it’s very, very dangerous for those of us who don’t adhere to their worldview.
Um…I’ll say this as politely as possible: Who cares? You can still go and harass and insult and berate the already traumatized young women going in and leaving, as well as the medical professionals who work in these clinics; you may just have to do it from a distance of (gasp!) 15 whole feet. BFD. I mean, really.
Does anyone see the tactics of the far left liberals paralleling the tactics of the Communists?
They do not tolerate religion and free speech (unless they are speaking). History repeats itself and those who ignore this will face the consequences.
nyk,
…and the poor babies having to have to hear such nonsence before being ripped apart – disgusting. I see your point.
You beat me to it Soap.
What? You want to take away free speech to keep women from possibly being bothered by their conscience?
What is “emotional safety” exactly?
P.S. My apologies to those who may have had an abortion. My comment was not meant to harm you in any way. It was a bit insensitive. I apologize.
How do you legislate emotional safety?
You can still go and harass and insult and berate the already traumatized young women going in and leaving, as well as the medical professionals who work in these clinics; you may just have to do it from a distance of (gasp!) 15 whole feet.
I am a sidewalk prayer warrior and counselor, I do not harass anyone nor have I seen anyone else do so in all the years I have been doing this. These women are traumatized but not because of what I do, but because of what they have just done or are about to do. The truth is that women know that this is wrong. They suffer from guilt before and after having an abortion.
The guilt is devastating to some and they never recover. There are millions of stories out there if you care to look beyond your own nose, of women who self-destructed after an abortion.
Many of us on the streets in front of abortion clinics are there to save the baby and the mother. We wish them no harm, but to stop them from making the worst choice of their life.
Planned Parenthood is afraid of the truth. Like all liberals they must shut it down rather than have people know it and make the right choice. If that would happen they would be out of business. And, their business is a lucrative one.
If you give them 15 feet, the government will take the right completely away. Incrementalism is exactly why we are losing control of the country.
“As one of the leading providers of reproductive health care in New York City, we see the daily impact of anti-abortion…”
Huh?? Am I missing something here?
Could it be the liberal hypocrisy?
By shielding people from reality as much as possible in order to perpetuate a political view that supports the extermination of the innocent, among other things. If these women are given facts and real options, they often don’t abort. The abortion pimps simply can’t have that.
I support Care Pregnancy Clinic for exactly this reason.
Why are they traumatized?
I know you’re going to say it’s because of protesters, but couldn’t it also be that they know what they are about to do is wrong, that they are about to have their baby’s life ended for their own convenience, or that of others (re: boyfriend), because the loudest voices have told them, “it’s the right thing to do?”
Fifteen feet is reasonable, given the intensity of emotions and the nastiness of abortion protesters. The same goes for Mormon churches — people angry that at Mormons over Prop 8 (funded largely by out of state Mormons at the command of the church leadership) should stay 15 feet from the chruch while yelling anti Mormon insults.
(I’m not in favor of yelling anti Mormon slogans outside Mormon churches or elsewhere. But Mormons blur the line between religion and cult when they order all members to rise up and defeat civil rights legislation.)
Reality check: in old school Communism, a protester could be jailed or shot, not asked to stand behind a rope line. Can you spot the difference?
Remember this flippant attitude when you decry the gay-ragers in California and elsewhere, being told to do the same with their protests outside churches and businesses.
If nobody physically restrains, threatens or impedes the ‘right’ of the woman and girls to have a living baby torn apart in utero, I don’t see how this could pass legitimate First Amendment scrutiny.
Of course, that all comes down to the 50/50 coin flip of whether Justice Kennedy’s eggs were cooked right on the day arguments were held, if this makes it to the SCOTUS.
Assuming this law did pass, someone was charged and convicted, and thus having standing, appealed, it made it to SCOTUS before one of the five non-automatic Obama justices become too ill to continue serving or die. Then this won’t even be granted a writ of cert.
You want hypocrisy?
The classical Hippocratic oath
A Nova translation of the Oath runs as follows:
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepios and Hygeia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art – if they desire to learn it – without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.
LGM said:”Reality check: in old school Communism, a protester could be jailed or shot, not asked to stand behind a rope line. Can you spot the difference?”
Yep. A conservative protester gets the rope line, the liberal protester gets inside the church. I for one am sick of the double standards.
Planned Parenthood looks to make even more money performing abortions when Obama succeeds in making abortion a federally funded ‘right’.
As a name, ‘Planned Parenthood’ is as big an oxymoron as they come.
Well said.
Crikey! My mom worked in a hospital and I never fully understood the oath until now. Thanks for the eye-opener, Soap!
You are so ignorant. You know what my abortion signs say?
I LOVE YOU AND YOUR UNBORN CHILD.
Oh, I’m sure that’s really intimidating and harassing.
Many, many women who have abortions are, yes, traumatized.
But that trauma comes not from pro-lifers, but from the boyfriends/husbands/parents/friends who coerce them (64% of them) into having abortions, and the same boyfriends/husbands/parents/friends who turn around and ignore that 65% of post-abortive women show signs and suffer from post-traumatic stress. Classify them as “minor statistics” or tell them to just “get over it.” The suicide rate among post-abortive women is 6x higher than the general population, and post-abortive women are 3.5x more likely to die in the year following their abortion.
There are myriad physical complications – ranging from bleeding and infection to infertility, to uterine perforation, cervical lacerations, increased risk of placenta previa in subsequent pregnancies, complications in subsequent pregnancies, and – yes, an increased risk of breast, cervical, ovarian, and liver cancer.
I’ve seen no stories come out of the abortion lobby of happy, healthy women post-abortion. No songs about abortion (“Brick” or “The Freshman”) are exactly peppy. Even feminists who say it’s no big deal exhibit such anger, such hatred for traditional societal mores, that it’s pretty certain they’re suffering – even if they deny it.
This is what I fight against. I show women love because it’s a damn certainty they don’t get it from their family/friends OR the abortion lobby.
That’s why I called it “Planned Barrenhood” or “Banned Parenthood.”
Excellent point.
I believe the passage dealing with giving a pessary to cause an abortion, or to administering an abortive remedy, is not present in the modern version.
Gee, watta surprise!
I myself did not take the oath at the med school graduation ceremony, a week after classes ended; because other matters came up, such as our honeymoon….
But, I assure you that I take the oath, including the original and classical passages, very seriously.
Liberals always look to Europe for their inspiration. European liberals are aborting themselves into insignificance.
I am always fascinated by how God sometimes solves a problem by simply allowing sinners to do what they want.
english queen, well said. thanks for your prayers for those suffering from this choice. keep up the good work.
And you know who’s replacing them, right? Hello, shari’a law.
If the Euros aborting themselves out of existence weren’t importing people from wherever they can get them, especially the Muslim world, to do the jobs their non-existent young obviously can’t do, it wouldn’t be so bad.
I suspect part of the reason even some Republicans, like McCain and Bush, support amnesty for illegals is because we’re missing 30 million or so aborted people who would otherwise be paying social security taxes, and as a pyramid scheme, social security always requires more people entering the system than drawing benefits.
On November 19th, 2008 at 10:34 am, tre said:
Because those who can’t handle the truth
try to silence those who speak it.
OH GOODIE!
A coalition between baby killers and people that won’t make babies.
DO THESE PEOPLE HATE A NORMAL LIFE?
Got it!
Fifteen feet sounds good to me for ANY protester. A rule like this could be a tool to assist law enforcement. There is no reason for any protester to get closer then 15 feet, unless, of course, they want to harass or intimidate. Fifteen feet is just fine for getting a message across. It seems to me this could help to protect both sides of any protest.
DBNinKY: I agree, and I think LGM said as much as well.
On November 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am, Flyoverman said:
“Liberals always look to Europe for their inspiration. European liberals are aborting themselves into
insignificanceEXTINCTION.”Check out these abortion rates…
On November 19th, 2008 at 10:53 am, englishqueen01 said:
Silent No More
granite,
wiki explains the oath but, strangly, leaves off abortion???
And graciously passed into law by socially conservative Democrats – the funding was inconsequential, but your side will keep baiting hostility by misleading the gullible with that little gem!
More like 50 million, since 1973, actually.
But I think you bring up a salient point, if the left wants bloated government programs, but insist on killing off 3,000 future taxpayers on a daily basis, you’re going to run into a mathematical problem down the road.
And that’s not to say the unborn are, or reduce them to, dollar figures. But the evil perpetuated in the name of “choice” has consequences…for all of us.
baiting hostility? are you deluded? we don’t have to do anything except be alive, to have the hostility of the left and the gay movement in particular.
Not when he twisted it with this:
Agreed! By and large today’s Left is every-bit as intimidating and violently hate-filled as the KKK ever was -
“And on that day you will cry out and the Lord will not hear you, becasue you chose a man and not Him.”
They wanted to be pro-choice and they are getting it.
And increasing hourly as we post – just think what it will be when our triumvirate President-elect, Obama-Pelosi-Reid restores full-funding to international family planning!
I am what the Anti Proposition 8 terrorists (Al-Gayda) would call a “breeder”.
I am quite thankful for the rewards God has given my wife and me.
Of course, a baby is a “punishment”, not a “reward”, in Obama’s eyes.
Even “unwanted” pregnancies are “wanted”…
just by someone other than the biological mother.
Many people in this country fly halfway around the world and pay tens of thousands of dollars to COMMUNIST countries (China, Russia, Vietnam) just for the privilege of adopting a child.
Even children conceived by rape or incest are wanted by someone. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and giving the child the death penalty for the father’s crime goes against everything this country stands for. Abortion denies innocent children their God-given unalienable right to life.
Live and let live.
Women who choose life are happier than women who choose death (abortion).
Chosing life does not imply chosing motherhood. If a woman is not ready to be a mother, let her put that beautiful baby up for adoption.
Lets see. Photoshopping lgm as a nazi is a banning offense. Calling Mormons a cult gets lgm???
Ding, ding, ding!
Wrong. I said the “ALREADY traumatized young women” because, contrary to what the right believes, I doubt anyone is ecstatic about having an abortion.
Been saying that for years – ALL babies are wanted. Right Rusty?
I have to wonder what experience people like nyk and lgm have with abortion protesters…? Both paint them as harassing and nasty but this something I have never personally witnessed.
There is a large abortion clinic near where I used to work in Chicagoland where there were protesters regularly posted. I saw a lot of praying and signs but nothing that looked like yelling insults and harassing young women. I was never a part of these protests, so my knowledge there is limited.
However, when I had an abortion back in college I do remember the protesters there as my boyfriend hustled me by… There were offers to pray with and/or talk to any person who wished it. This was expressed through calm speech as well as signs. No one came near me and I heard no yelling from the groups. I did however hear a young woman who was seeking an abortion shout at the protesters with the foulest language and some harsh insults. This “lady” later sat next to me as I cried and bragged to me about how this was her right and they can’t stop her and how this was her 3rd abortion (she could not have been older than 20)… I had to get up and move.
I am not saying that only people who have had direct experience with abortion have a right to discuss this issue. Nor am I trying to say that I know one way or another what nyk and lgm have experienced. I just wonder how many pro-life protesters are as nasty as all pro-life people are portrayed.
This is the point where the extreme pro-life crowd loses the support of the main stream. This and the stem-cell debate. Were they more flexible about those two issues, they might actually make some headway.
No, YOU are ignorant for your inability to read. I said that those women were ALREADY traumatized — the suggestion being that they come to the clinic that way. The presence of angry protesters only heightens it.
You shouldn’t use words you don’t understand, particularly in response to things that confuse you.
englishqueen, no offense taken. Many women in “Silent No More” know that they were taken advantage of by the abortion provider who does not adequately inform the patient. When I had mine, I believed the “blob of cells” the counselor assured me was all there was to remove.
Your statement would only be offensive to women who have had an abortion but have not reconciled themselves to the truth. I am joined by many post-abortive women who have faced the truth, acknowledged their mistake and now seek to help others avoid the same emotional wreckage.
The truth never hurts anyone who honestly want to know it.
Odd, I’m an out of state Mormon who has heard NOTHING about this issue from local leaders or from churchwide letters. Most people in our congregation know very little about Proposition 8 and what is going on there unless they follow out of state news. We follow it since we’re from California, but never did anyone from the church including our own families in California ask us for money or to help with Proposition 8.
Calling it “civil rights” implies that the gay members of society do not enjoy the same rights as I do because I am straight and they are gay. This is not true, they are legally able to marry a member of the opposite sex if they choose to do so, and can still legally marry in a private ceremony someone of the same sex. These are the same rights I have as a straight person. Also labeling marriage as a “civil right” suggests that the government needs to step in and help my single friends that would like to get married but have been unable to find a spouse as of yet.
The term “order” also implies a punishment if we don’t comply. No punishments yet for those who didn’t help or who even donated money to the No on 8 groups.
Planned Parenthood sure is.
But they are just following the dictates of their founder.
Wiki was one (reluctantly) of three or four places I checked on the oath.
I found there:
the original oath in Greek;
the original oath in English;
the classical oath;
and the modern oath.
It’s the modern oath, not surprisingly, that omits any reference to abortion.
Right – these women are traumatized because they are doing something they know is wrong.
TRANSLATION: If the intolerant Christians and Right-Wingers would just set their standards and principles aside and agree with us, we would not be haveing these problems.
paboperfecto – Your comments about the gay “civil rights” are very well-written. Thank you for spelling that out for those who still seem confused by the difference.
No, I stand by my original claim. It’s easy to buy the media template that pro-lifers are foaming, rabid, angry folk – but at the overwhelming majority of protests and demonstrations, they’re peaceful, loving, supportive people. You wouldn’t know that if it bit you in the armpit, though, since we’re not politically correct.
Women who end up at clinics – as I showed above – are often not there of their own free will. The presence of loving, pro-life people gives them the opportunity to reach out when the abortion doctors, clinic workers, and the oh-so-sensitive men/family/friends that dump them off.
The blame for their trauma lies with you, and others, who make women feel abortion is their only choice, who support unsafe clinics and dangerous abortion doctors, who overturn informed choice legislation, who deny the real post-abortive stress and trauma women experience.
Not with those of us who see women, and their unborn children, as human beings who need love and support.
Why aren’t they ecstatic about having an abortion, nyk?
What is it that is inside a pregnant women? A human life. That human life has intrinsic value– EVEN IF he or she was conceived by rape, as horrible as that is. Should the rapist be punished? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean we kill the baby.
Not to split hairs, but a church taking a stand on society’s debate is a primary function of a church. It’s leadership.
A cult on the other hand, is the worship of a human leader.
StanW:
No, that is not what I said. I said merely what I said and nothing more.
Setting aside the stem-cell and rape issue does not constitute “agreeing with us.”
It is, however, realpolitik.
One more time. 7 of the 8 girls in the second picture are a product of rape. Which one “deserves” to live?
As for stem cell research. The private sector will not fund embryonic stem cell research because adult cells do just fine. As soon as legislation is passed to fund ESCR, there will be lots of people lined up for free money knowing full well the real science lies with adult stem cells without having to destroy a living baby (which is what an embryo is). But you go ahead and believe the extreme pro-life crowd is the problem and ignore one more thing to waste tax payer dollars on. UGH
Unless it is rape or a child below the age of consent the “trauma” is the result of a self-inflicted wound,when their “CHOICE” was actually made. When they arrive at Planned Parenthood they are there as a consequence of their “CHOICE.”
Harsh to read, but that is reality. But then some people view the consequence as being “punished.”
Science is already taking stem-cells out of the equation: Everyday, new discoveries into the viability and applications of stem cells is pointing researchers toward adult over embryonic stem cells.
Soap:
I am not going to rehash this tired debate. We had it months ago and its pointless to repeat.
I was only making an observation of realpolitik. I would imagine even some pro-lifers could see the wisdom of my point.
So why do we never see any calls from you and your ilk of the pro-abortion people to compromise or set aside their principles.
Whay do they work so hard to deny opponents the right to assemble and free speech? Why won’t they permit abortion alternates to be presented prior to abortions?
Why can they not even admit the truth about what they are doing?
Exactly. Defend your rights.
Thank you for making this point clear. Except in extreme cases, abortion is a non-issue when people (women and men) behave responsibly.
I just said above that all protesters should be given a fifteen feet rule. I also support jailing the disgusting thugs that are harassing the folks in the subject of this article.
Sorry I mean the other article about prop 8.
Yeah, heaven forbid we see ESCR for what it really is: bad, failed science.
To date, ESCR has created not a single treatment or cure. None. It has, however, mutated into things like cancer.
Uh…sure. It lies with me. I’ve never made any woman feel anything is her only choice so, as usual, you’re talking out of your a$$ and making no sense. But I’m sure you blame everyone who isn’t out there on the line with you. That’s your choice. My point is, I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find a woman who is excited about or proud to have an abortion. The protesters they have to encounter before something so intimate surely makes it all the harder and even more difficult.
I would like to venture some input on the traumatization comments. I would argue that zeroangel is right about women arriving at these clinics being traumatized already, or at least pained and sensitive. DBNinKY is also basically right as to the cause of the traumatization.
Drawing from my own personal experience and my conversations with other post-abortive women, I believe that even those who go in feeling that abortion is an acceptable action for any pregnancy have underlying feelings of trauma and guilt. This seems to stem from the fact that killing one’s own child as he grows inside a mother and feeds from her goes against the natural feminine instincts that (almost?) every woman has. This act is a perversion of a woman’s nature. Hence, even those who are pro-abortion respond to this experience with sadness, guilt, anger, etc… The feminist movement may have tried to (with some success) erase femininity, but they can only reach the surface.
As I sit here feeling my baby kick and dance inside me (the most amazing thing I have ever felt!), I am disgusted by the thought that I could ever have done what I did. At the time, I was partially coerced but I had also convinced myself that what I was doing was somehow okay. Yet even then I could not stop crying from the moment we arrived at the clinic to the next day. It is unnatural for a woman to do what I did and we all feel it in one way or another. Even if I wouldn’t admit it to myself, I knew inside how wrong it all was.
For some reason, that doesn’t bother me.
englishqueen:
We have been through this. I suppose that we should just do away with every field of research that doesn’t produce results in a certain time frame. If science and research had done that all along, we would still be living in caves.
Now, I understand your objection to ESCR on a principled level.
However, that also means you must be against culling during IVF and IUD. Is this the case, I can’t recall.
That was nyk I believe, I am only talking about realpolitik.
Why doesn’t that surprise me?
Anyway, I think George Carlin put it best when he said that pro-lifers aren’t really pro-life, they’re just pro-fetus:
It’s funny ’cause it’s true!
Jw2, thanks for sharing personal experiences, it can’t be easy but (I feel) really helps the discussion. Congratulations as well!
We are not confusing anything dear Manhattan-we are well aware you want to stop us from disagreeing with you and all Leftist on anything. These constant and continuous assults on our rights is all the proof any honest person needs as to your motives. Buffer zones around Abortion Clinics but let Leftist break windows, loot and burn in the name of free speech? Fairness Doctrine? Their Cult of Death has become their premier tool in their Fascist assaults.
You Second amendment is all that protects the rest. Be it the Gestapo, GDU or Obama’s Civilian Security Services they are coming.
Arm yourselves-you are responsible for your and your families security.
–
That Every Man Be Armed–You Too ladies
Reproductive Health Care (re: A B O R T I O N)
George Carlin? Please! He was NEVER funny! NEVER!
As I wrote above, I agree that women are, in general, not proud or happy with their actions in these cases. However, I also feel that protesters are not generally cruel or nasty to those women. And, in my case, I did not “have to encouter” them at all beyond seeing them on the sidewalk. It wasn’t like running the gauntlet.
If they do make the decision more difficult… good. Abortion is a disgusting practice and it should be a very difficult, well-informed decision. That is often not the case. I t hink if protesters make a woman think twice about what she is about to do, maybe make her put it off until she thinks it over more or seeks more information, that is a very good thing.
My fault. I knew it was nyk… not sure why I typed your name instead. Sorry.
Let’s put this to the test. I say smashing my thumb with a hammer will cure my cancer. How many times do I have to smash it before you decide that the desired results will not be produced? I mean, if we are going to use extreme ideas that produce harmful results, when do we call it quits (especially in light of an alternative that really works)? DUH
Soap:
I really don’t think that either of us has the relevant knowledge to make an informed decision about this. Many biologoists in this field seem to think there is potential. I am inclined to defer to them.
I didn’t expect it would. Such things should be challanged instead of allowed to just happen because the moon is in the wrong phase. But I believe it should be legal.
JW2, thank you for sharing your story, and congratulations on the soon-to-be new addition to your family. I hope and pray all goes well for you.
Soap:
To add: as I said though, I understand your objection on a principled level that ESCR is harmful.
That said, you must also be against culling during IVF and IUD. Is this the case?
On November 19th, 2008 at 12:35 pm, nyk said:
Moronic. Liberals care more about children? Making people dependent on the government through welfare programs and keeping them from pulling themselves up and providing for themselves and their families is not a greater show of compassion. You know the old saying, “Give a man a fish…” Just follow the charity work and dollars to see which group (in general) really cares more.
paboperfecto and pianoman – Thank you!
I see. So, the science can be in on man caused Goreball Warming and not ESCR? Interesting. The FACT that the private sector does not invest in ESCR should tell you volumes (if you will be honest). The idea that throwing tax money at ESCR will, suddenly, produce results is, well, stupid. As for what I believe, you just wouldn’t understand this “far.rightwing.bigoted.redneck.christian”. Nor do I think you really care to.
Ah, yes, the old civil rights claim. Sorry, lgm, but Prop 8 had absolutely nothing to do with civil rights. California already had a civil unions law, which gives anyone who doesn’t believe in marriage the way the rest of the world has for centuries the rights they need. If it was a civil rights, do you think the 70% of African Americans who voted for Prop 8 would have done so? I don’t think so.
And why does encouaging members to vote for an issue that is crucial to our society open them up to such displays of hate? I know that’s perfectly acceptble for
peopleliberals like you to whine and cry when people don’t agree with you, but why do they have fewer civil rights (the correct use of the term, by the way) just because they stood up for what they believe in?